No More Heroes - Attack Potency, Kinetic Energy, Speed, Mass and Lifting Strength General Discussion and Content Revision Thread

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure whose argument you're talking about.

 

[Antvasima]

Jasonsith's. There seems to be too much opposition to them.

 

[Jasonsith]

Jasonsith's. There seems to be too much opposition to them.

Well the baseline treaty of truce is that lifting strength by exceptional acceleration should be reviewed on a case by case basis.

The disputing area is (1) how generous we should treat throwing a small object at superhuman speed, and (2) how well-defined or ill-defined should we go.

If there is so much opposition on giving stricter rules on lifting strength, we can always go back to status quo, i.e. going back to case by case approach. We are determining kinetic energy based on movement speed on a case by case basis. Having no agreement on my new rule should simply go back to our current rules.

Just remember:
We are giving strict guidelines on how much a giant can lift, and that even if the lifting strength, by F = ma or LS = mg (force raises in magnitude of 4 against character height but mass goes only against magnitude of 3 against character height), we do not directly assume said character's LS scale to that height (unless that portrays more like a scaled up human or "tokusatsu style").
We are also currently limiting pushing/pulling strength with consideration to friction and method of moving (sliding vs rolling, material choice of object and ground, etc.)
Also, allowing LS derived from acceleration instead of just mass is stepping or even crossing the borderline of our KE feat limitation rules, where fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power, more unrelated to lifting strength. As such feats like just running or carrying or throwing an object, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's lifting or striking power (even if the character uses the fast moving object to attack, examination on impacts and aftermaths are still required). We do not immediately draw back from evaluating feats on determining yields necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. as one of the approaches or methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.

---

I do not see opposition on granting higher speed by trajectory (aka jump good), as DontTalkDT says. And the combat speed and reactions are to be separately decided as long as other feats shows way better results.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well the baseline treaty of truce is that lifting strength by exceptional acceleration should be reviewed on a case by case basis.

I do disagree with this still.

We are giving strict guidelines on how much a giant can lift, and that even if the lifting strength, by F = ma or LS = mg (force raises in magnitude of 4 against character height but mass goes only against magnitude of 3 against character height), we do not directly assume said character's LS scale to that height (unless that portrays more like a scaled up human or "tokusatsu style").

Because most people cannot lift their own weight.

We are also currently limiting pushing/pulling strength with consideration to friction and method of moving (sliding vs rolling, material choice of object and ground, etc.)

Because that's how it works in real life. The method I'm suggesting is ALSO how it looks in real life.

Also, allowing LS derived from acceleration instead of just mass is stepping or even crossing the borderline of our KE feat limitation rules, where fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power, more unrelated to lifting strength. As such feats like just running or carrying or throwing an object, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's lifting or striking power (even if the character uses the fast moving object to attack, examination on impacts and aftermaths are still required). We do not immediately draw back from evaluating feats on determining yields necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. as one of the approaches or methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.

It is not, definitely not when it comes to throws. A throw is almost always applicable for KE AP.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think?

 

[Armorchompy]

Sorry but, this clearly isn't getting anywhere, and we have several accepted calculations of this kind. It's not getting any attention but I doubt it needs to, personally

 

[Jasonsith]

So at least throwing can be translated to KE as striking strength as long as they comply with the KE laws existing and any other existing rules.

I think what's set is set. I believe we can close this topic.

 

[Armorchompy]

No, hold on. Jumping is generally accepted too, and I don't think your arguments as to why it shouldn't be were satisfactory.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well, if nothing has been agreed upon, then we are moving back to our case by case approach:

"Lifting strength based on acceleration, just like attack potency by kinetic energy based on movement speed, is to be assessed on a case by case basis."
This should be really fair enough and be meeting the middle.

Unless you want to overthrow the golden rule of "Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move itself as unrelated to their attack potency or lifting strength" thing once and for all. Which will make a big impact as we are really blurring the difference among speed, lifting strength & striking strength.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, if nothing has been agreed upon, then we are moving back to our case by case approach:

"Lifting strength based on acceleration, just like attack potency by kinetic energy based on movement speed, is to be assessed on a case by case basis."
This should be really fair enough and be meeting the middle.

Unless you want to overthrow the golden rule of "Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move itself as unrelated to their attack potency or lifting strength" thing once and for all. Which will make a big impact as we are really blurring the difference among speed, lifting strength & striking strength.

This isn't a golden rule. If a character is stated to move at 300 kmh and it tackles someone else, then that's perfect grounds for a KE calc. I honestly struggle to think of any example where your example comes true. And again, this isn't "blurring the difference", it's simply getting several statistics from the same feat.

Don't get me wrong, this kind of feat is prone to being an outlier sometimes, but that is completely unrelated from the calculation aspect of vsbw and that is what should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

[Jasonsith]

Okay. So nothing really changes and we can continue to assess kinetic energy feats from object mass with movement speed on case by case basis, subject to other constraints (if and only if applicable).
Good and all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Thanks for being understanding. Considering that's what started it all, could I ask you to approve the No More Heroes calculation?

 

[Jasonsith]

For everyone else:
This is the feat where everything sparks:
a travel speed feat by high jump which Armorchompy wants to use as a lifting strength feat instead.

IMO this is a better lifting strength feat for NMH verse and the yield is much higher.

Nothing has changed indeed.

 

[Armorchompy]

For everyone else:
This is the feat where everything sparks:
a travel speed feat by high jump which Armorchompy wants to use as a lifting strength feat instead.

It's not "a travel speed feat which I want to use as a lifting strength feat instead". It's a travel speed feat, it's a lifting strength feat and for all I care it's a stamina feat too.

IMO this is a better lifting strength feat for NMH verse and the yield is much higher.

This applies to the second game, the jumping feat applies to the first game. Why do you think I calculated it in the first place? Nevermind that even if that wasn't the case the jumping feat would still be good as a supporting feat. I have played all of the games, I have gone through every single little bit of side content available to the west, I have played every single other game made by this developer because it takes place in the same universe, no offense, but I think I know what the "better lifting strength feats" are for this verse.

Listen, if you're not gonna evaluate it just have the thread closed, dealing with your standards that I don't think any other calc member subscribes to is really starting to annoy me, so I'll just ask someone else to.

 

[Jasonsith]

@Armorchompy : Maybe No More Heroes 1 has some more lifting strength feat which should be more visual and subject to less speculation than... that? Let us talk in a separate thread.

Otherwise, some moderator please close this thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy : Maybe No More Heroes 1 has some more lifting strength feat which should be more visual and subject to less speculation than... that? Let us talk in a separate thread.

It doesn't. All other feats are around class 5 although very casual. You have absolutely zero reason to argue against this feat other than personal bias. And there's absolutely zero speculation on this one.

Otherwise, some moderator please close this thread.

No, this discussion has no reason to exist in the first place, I don't want another thread of these arguments. If you don't like the feat, then just delete your comments on my blog and let another calc member evaluate it. It's perfectly fine not to want to approve a calculation even if it's correct, but stonewalling it isn't.

 

[Jasonsith]

It doesn't. All other feats are around class 5 although very casual. You have absolutely zero reason to argue against this feat other than personal bias. And there's absolutely zero speculation on this one.

So show me the Class 5 lifting strength feats already.

No, this discussion has no reason to exist in the first place, I don't want another thread of these arguments. If you don't like the feat, then just delete your comments on my blog and let another calc member evaluate it. It's perfectly fine not to want to approve a calculation even if it's correct, but stonewalling it isn't.

I need to provide my feedback on the ends I see fit.
If someone else is happy with another end, feel free to discuss. And anyone is free to leave any opinion they see fi subject to rules applicable.

And if you are not doing it, I think I will raise a No More Heroes revamp thread for consolidating the feats for every season.

 

[Armorchompy]

So show me the Class 5 lifting strength feats already.

... They're linked to the profiles. Either way, it's just more throwing feats, and a non-calculated jumping feat, plus some generic things such as wielding superhumanly large swords. But I'd appreciate if you explained why this matters in the first place.

I need to provide my feedback on the ends I see fit.
If someone else is happy with another end, feel free to discuss. And anyone is free to leave any opinion they see fit.

Then do that on the blog itself. I don't care which end is picked from it, I just wanna put an end to this discussion.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I've just noticed your last comment on my blog and I think I've finally ******* had it.

"I can only accept KE / PE and speed in this particular case."

Lifting Strength is DIRECTLY CALCULATED FROM KE / PE.

if you accept those, you HAVE to accept LS!

And if you are not doing it, I think I will raise a No More Heroes revamp thread for consolidating the feats for every season.

All the feats are consistent as hell, in fact I downgraded the verse myself about a half year ago because I thought it was rated too high. Keep targeting this verse (that I'll have to assume you know next to nothing about) and I'm gonna report you. You have already wasted over a month of my time with this thread, I certainly don't feel like letting you waste more.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well, I glanced through it.

The impression to me seems like: The No More Heroes verse focuses more on speed and striking strength than "lifting strength". There are sometimes verses where attack potency, lifting strength, speed and hax do not correlate. You should not be mad just because a verse has characters with a high striking strength but a lower lifting strength.

If you really want to report me because you want to, go head. I am just listing my views as I see fit and I see abiding rules applicable.
Also, this is a forum for every member to raise any thread as long as they state their reasons and findings and abide with other rules. You cannot really stop other people from discussing a No More Heroes topic just because you believe you are the most knowledgeable person.

If you find my wordings confusing as if giving you false hope, point that out and I will correct it.
If you keep being rude however, I reserve MY right to report you in this regard.

And since the need for a No More Heroes CRT does not quite fit here, I believe the moderator may consider locking it instead of stirring more flames. Any need for regrading a No More Heroes verse should be discussed in another thread as I believe this thread fails to serve as such.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, I glanced through it.

The impression to me seems like: The No More Heroes verse focuses more on speed and striking strength than "lifting strength". There are sometimes verses where attack potency, lifting strength, speed and hax do not correlate. You should not be mad just because a verse has characters with a high striking strength but a lower lifting strength.

Don't accuse me of being upset, I simply don't think your arguments make sense.

And don't come to conclusions. The math works, and there's no anti-feats. There's nothing else that matters.

If you really want to report me because you want to, go head. I am just listing my views as I see fit and I see abiding rules applicable.
Also, this is a forum for every member to raise any thread as long as they state their reasons and findings and abide with other rules. You cannot really stop other people from discussing a No More Heroes topic just because you believe you are the most knowledgeable person.

You are making claims without anything to back them up or without any knowledge of the verse in question. This has wasted too much of my time to be a simple "discussion"

And since the need for a No More Heroes CRT does not quite fit here, I believe the moderator may consider locking it instead of stirring more flames. Any need for regrading a No More Heroes verse should be discussed in another thread as I believe this thread fails to serve as such.

If you're gonna go ahead and try making a CRT, then approve this calculation (as the math is correct and you currently have no arguments against it) and then start researching the verse. Right now you're arguing out of disbelief and scrutiny without providing any proof backing your claims.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, for what it's worth, I'm actually on board with Armor for the most part in regards to these types of feats, without going to in-depth as to why I think so, they check out at least mathematically and quantifiably so in my opinion among other things, case by case should still apply due to exceptions, but that goes for everything, generally speaking, they aight imo.

 

[Antvasima]

@Armorchompy

What should we do here? Should I close this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

I would appreciate an evaluation from you as well. Should I close this thread now?

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy

What should we do here? Should I close this thread?

I would prefer if either Jasonsith's comments on my calculation were deleted or he accepted it, since I believe they might ward off other calc members who consider evaluating it.

 

[Jasonsith]

@Armorchompy

What should we do here? Should I close this thread?

I believe you should.

Moreover, I never stop other staff from assessing the feat and giving feedback.

But I do notice that many of Armor's LS feats in No More Heroes verse revolve around increasing lifting strength from the mass of the object by picking a far smaller mass on acceleration or a high speed.

 

[Armorchompy]

I believe you should.

Not until this is settled, please.

Moreover, I never stop other staff from assessing the feat and giving feedback.

Of course, but they may feel the need to debate you, or like the CRT has been rejected. Considering your opinion has been more or less debunked and is based on personal opinion, I don't think this is fair.

But I do notice that many of Armor's LS feats in No More Heroes verse revolve around increasing lifting strength from the mass of the object by picking a far smaller mass on acceleration or a high speed.

Yes.

 

[Jasonsith]

Maybe Travis has pushed against some obese people or heavily armored people in 1st game so that... I am working on one calc and will let you know the results once formulated.

As a sign of friendship reconciliation or whatever, I have included a calculation for lifting strength by NMH1, which most early bosses and Travis should scale above.

 

[Armorchompy]

I appreciate it, but there's nothing that'll approach Class 50 in the first game. This will be good to apply to Buster's profile though. Anyway, you fight and suplex some large people, but that would probably not even get past class 1.

 

[Jasonsith]

I appreciate it, but there's nothing that'll approach Class 50 in the first game. This will be good to apply to Buster's profile though. Anyway, you fight and suplex some large people, but that would probably not even get past class 1.

Well the sword and the mini howitzer are low end Class 5.

So Class 5 NMH 1, Class K NMH 2 very god tier, Class 10 Travis Strikes Again. A jump in LS at NMH2 by fighting Balloon Jasper Batt Jr.

 

[Armorchompy]

No More Heroes 1 is Class 50 from the Henry feat, who I got another calc member to accept.

 

[Jasonsith]

Before we move to the new thread where everyone can talk the NMH games with a more pleasant environment, may I ask who scales from this end? Given Dr. Letz Shake and member Letz Shake were #5 Ranked Assassin in NMH 1 and they were "resurrected" as #10 Ranked Assassin in NMH 2, I assume only people who scale above them scale to that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Everyone in NMH1 is comparable to a degree, as seen with #8 Shinobu Jacobs being able to chop off #1 Jeane's arm, and #1 Jeane being much stronger than #0 Henry. It's not spotless but it's the best method.

 

[Jasonsith]

Everyone in NMH1 is comparable to a degree, as seen with #8 Shinobu Jacobs being able to chop off #1 Jeane's arm, and #1 Jeane being much stronger than #0 Henry. It's not spotless but it's the best method.

Attack potency wise, yes.
Lifting strength... I politely disagree. To be frank, I myself would prefer reserving them to the real high tiers or even god tiers. Shinobu should be among the high tier regardless.

That matters not in the long run as Travis, Henry and Jasper (the god tiers) has the NMH2 balloon Jasper yield to scale from.

Of course, further AP/speed scaling discussions would be better done in the new thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

Shinobu is absolutely not a high tier in NMH1. Travis beats her with no more difficulty than any other early game boss. Besides, AP would end up scaling to everyone anyway since they hurt Travis.

Everyone in the first half of NMH2 scales to Travis/Henry. And there's no clear cutting point in NMH1, Bad Girl is explicitly one of Travis' toughest fights, Destroyman is clearly physically stronger than Travis and everyone can clash swords with him.

 

[Jasonsith]

Shinobu is absolutely not a high tier in NMH1. Travis beats her with no more difficulty than any other early game boss. Besides, AP would end up scaling to everyone anyway since they hurt Travis.

Everyone in the first half of NMH2 scales to Travis/Henry. And there's no clear cutting point in NMH1, Bad Girl is explicitly one of Travis' toughest fights, Destroyman is clearly physically stronger than Travis and everyone can clash swords with him.

And Travis still survives and defeats Destroyman. NMH1 Destroyman just takes Travis by surprise and being really dirty.
NMH2 Shinobu did take down 2 NMH2 Destroymen but they are NMH2 characters by then.
However, maybe Armor-san has already stretched research on the win-loss records of characters so maybe share opinions on how the scaling chains work?

And the "everyone can clash swords with him" argument needs to be examined really carefully as technically this can derail to things like Tier 7 Dan Hibiki or Tier 4 Koopa as examples because they technically hurt the primary protagonists at some point.

 

[Armorchompy]

And Travis still survives and defeats Destroyman. NMH1 Destroyman just takes Travis by surprise and being really dirty.
NMH2 Shinobu did take down 2 NMH2 Destroymen but they are NMH2 characters by then.
However, maybe Armor-san has already stretched research on the win-loss records of characters so maybe share opinions on how the scaling chains work?

Not an argument. Default assumption is that if they fight, they're comparable. Present actual EVIDENCE as to why they shouldn't be.

And the "everyone can clash swords with him" argument needs to be examined really carefully as technically this can derail to things like Tier 7 Dan Hibiki or Tier 4 Koopa as examples because they technically hurt the primary protagonists at some point.

Those characters have clear evidence as to why they shouldn't scale. No More Heroes characters don't, not to mention it's a much more narratively focused game.

 

[Chariot190]

And the "everyone can clash swords with him" argument needs to be examined really carefully as technically this can derail to things like Tier 7 Dan Hibiki or Tier 4 Koopa as examples because they technically hurt the primary protagonists at some point.

I really don't think boss characters, or even mini boss characters. are the same as complete dispensable fodder that the main characters have been shown capable of killing en mass in groups of hundreds with zero effort.
And Dan ***** himself over, he actually has potential.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Armorchompy]

There's no conclusions to be reached, Jason has issues with the scaling but little arguments behind his doubts. Now I'm willing to explain things to him, but he clearly thinks his points have more weight than I think.