No More Heroes - Attack Potency, Kinetic Energy, Speed, Mass and Lifting Strength General Discussion and Content Revision Thread

[Jasonsith]

It all spawns from here.

I try to summarise the problems found:

1. From time to time we found characters that jumped good - I mean, jumping really high.

Vertical jump requires travelling upward by jumping upward, which involves a leg thrust.

KE on ground = PE stalled at a height upward
0.5 m v^2 = mgh
0.5 v^2 = gh
v = (2gh)^0.5

Can launch speed be calculated from such?
Given it is usually a leg thrust and usually legs are used in travelling, can this be a travel speed also beside from being a combat speed and reaction speed? (This will in fact be a lowball as usually human travel way faster on the ground as they do in a vertical jump.)

My opinion is that it can in fact be used on deducing travel speed, combat speed, attack speed and reaction speed.

2. Our rules say that

Do not calculate speed from kinetic energy: The kinetic energy an object was calculated to possess, in any way whatsoever, should not be considered as related through its speed. While the formula technically can be used to relate those values in both direction this is disregarded in practice. One reason for this is that fiction in general differentiates between the attack potency and the speed of a character. Another reason is that it returns unrealistic values, as even a Small City level+ punch would already have Relativistic+ speed. Out of similar reasons mass should also not be calculated from it.

However, what about lifting strength?

My opinion is that lifting strength should only be limited to the mass of the object itself, subject to friction and gravity constraints. As lifting strength in our site means ability to lift a mass on Earth gravity, so rejection of back deduction of mass from theoretical KE should also reject lifting strength such calculated.

Arguments for back deducing LS from KE feat (and against my standpoint here) is that:

there's other reasons weight lifters don't dominate jumping events such as aerodynamics, technique and weight, but considering we classify grip strength or tearing strength as eligible for lifting strength (and they're VERY different from lifting something) despite literally acknowledging they're unreliable, we either need to make our rules stricter in general or include this too. The motion of jumping is still closer to a lift than a strike and that is not deniable.
The motion of a jump is also especially close to that of a throw, which we also accept for Lifting Strength. Now, weight lifters don't dominate javelin throwing events either, no?
Our LS page specifically says throwing is acceptable as something to calculate and I've seen many calcs of that sort accepted. Don't get me wrong I'm fine with making a thread on the subject but it seems to me the wiki already accepts this somewhat.
Usually we don't make a distinction unless it's stated, pulling and pushing muscles are different but if a character can rip out a spine they get Class K all across the board, and that's without getting into gripping and crushing.

(An example can be found here)

3. What certain types of striking strength feats can be translated into lifting strength and how they should be treated and translated?

4. How to determine object deceleration and acceleration feats and translate them into lifting strength and attack potency?
(Spider-Man stopping a moving train, some magician pushing a rocket to liftoff, etc.)

---

Current consensus:

1. We use trajectory to figure out speeds, so probably yes - travel speed in short burst can be calculated from vertical jumps.

2. The rule of thumb remains that "Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move itself as unrelated to their attack potency or lifting strength".

However, there is a growing voice that lifting strength by travel speed can allow lifting strength be upgraded without having to find a feat in which a character has to carry an actually heavy object.

Moreover, as weight=mg, Armorchompy argues that it is instinctive that throwing an object should be instinctively be more impressive than just lifting it, and that we should remove the "fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move itself as unrelated to their attack potency or lifting strength" altogether - as if this had not been a golden rule in the first place.

Therefore, while we are not adding or removing any new rules, obtaining yields of lifting strength from throwing objects with an acceleration should be evaluated and assessed on a case by case basis (and has no guarantee whether such yield is applicable or not in that feat). We must make sure it does not violate any other rules at Kinetic Energy Feats and any other rules in any other aspects.

3. For the Travis jump good feat itself, the feat yield itself has been leniently approved by Migue79. Thanks.

 

[Armorchompy]

Obviously I'm of the opinion getting LS from this kind of stuff is perfectly legitimate. In the end, a jump is very similar to a throwing motion, and we find throwing acceptable and calculate its LS potency through KE among other methods. I will say however that I did not find my method myself- I don't quite recall who I got it from, Ugarik or Migue.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Are normal users allowed to discuss in Calc threads?
I already ccommented.

The thing about throwing and jumping in real life is that, there way too many variables which generate differences between LS of both actions. Body Weight, Leg strengths, Arm Strength, jumping and throwing techniques, height etc.

All of which is inconsequential 99.9% of the time in fiction, unless setting is very realistic and grounded.

So I agree for Speed scaling for throwing and jumping. And LS for both too.

 

[KLOL506]

Obviously I'm of the opinion getting LS from this kind of stuff is perfectly legitimate. In the end, a jump is very similar to a throwing motion, and we find throwing acceptable and calculate its LS potency through KE among other methods. I will say however that I did not find my method myself- I don't quite recall who I got it from, Ugarik or Migue.

I think it was Spino who made it. Not sure tho.

 

[Armorchompy]

Are normal users allowed to discuss in Calc threads?

I think so, yes.

The thing about throwing and jumping in real life is that, there way too many variables which generate differences between LS of both actions. Body Weight, Leg strengths, Arm Strength, jumping and throwing techniques, height etc.

To this I would add: Tearing, gripping and even pushing are all very different from lifting- the human body is complex like that. We classify all of those as LS, so this should count too.

 

[Jasonsith]

Okay so general consensus first is that "travel speed can be obtained by vertical jumps".

---

Now for the part likely in dispute:

I find some the above comments essentially challenging the principle of "not using KE to calculate mass". nI think I shall clarify a bit:

While throwing is currently accepted for lifting strength and attack potency, the lifting strength is only restricted to the mass of the object in the feat, not its acceleration. In fact, if the object is being pushed under lower fiction under Earth gravity, that has to be taken into consideration and the yield has to be discounted accordingly. Say if a large boulder

We should not continue doing something wrong because we are just already doing this, especially if we have alternative solutions.

In the meantime, I have a bold suggestion to mitigate the feat finding from a one-time force application and making light objects accelerate which yields striking strength far higher than lifting strength given the mass is too small: (because some people do have a voice for using one-time force application as a strength feat but what to do if it cannot be used as a lifting strength feat)

Given how currently our striking strength serves nothing more than copying things listed at "Attack Potency", I am suggesting to use the "Striking Strength" to include one-time physical force application in contrast to "Lifting Strength" which is a consistent force applied in moving an object.
As such striking strength will no longer be a dummy variable, and feats from one-time physical force application can be differentiated from consistent force application.


I would want to invite more people to discuss this topic as this essentially has a big move in our pages. (Or we can just dismiss using striking strength as lifting strength)

@Antvasima @Promestein @AKM sama @Ursuul @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
@Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Wokistan @KieranH10 @Migue79

 

[Armorchompy]

you didn't ping all of them properly

 

[Jasonsith]

you didn't ping all of them properly

Sorry but does @Ursuul have a proper vsbattles.com account here? I have left a message at his/her/its/their wall just in case.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, I think they were inactive before that? Either way I'm not 100% sure editing a message pings the people you edited in so maybe it'd be better to make a separate post.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. We use trajectory to figure out speeds, so probably yes. However, it's not immediately reaction speed for obvious reasons.
2. I don't quite understand the proposal. Do you mean to calculate the weight of an object from KE, given that you know its velocity? That would probably be a no, given that slow attacks can hit hard in fiction.
In general, I think most methods that calculate LS by figuring it an amount of Newtons that a character can apply to an external object over a long period of time, without the use of leverage or similar, are probably fine, though. I would probably not consider something like jumping high on one's own, given that it's also a form of calculating backwards from speed to strength.
3. IMO we either need to consider feats of punching X mass upwards as LS or we need to add a note that someone without X lifting strength, might still be able to launch mass upwards equivalent to corresponding Striking Strength feats. Or Idk, maybe it would be best to have two types of lifting strength, like with combat speed and reaction speed? Like, normal lifting strength and 'explosive' lifting strength, where the latter is for punching stuff upwards.
4. I mean... force right? The only requirement for stuff like that is probably that it's not actually punching and stuff, the force values become baloney then.

 

[Armorchompy]

One doesn't necessarily need speed for jumping LS calculations, you can also get Newtons from PE I believe.

 

[RisingIons]

Baki for example, I'm pretty sure he could pulverize a baseball with his grip. Nobody on Earth is doing that, as a baseball player hits the ball with over 4000 pounds of force on average, and over 8000 at peak, with the ball not breaking. That more closely relates to striking strength than lifting strength. However we would need to revise our striking strength pages as we did with lifting strength to reflect, because quantitatively they are poor.

As for point #4, just use the work formula. Work (J) = Force*Distance

Jumping is easier because a jump is an explosive squat and a squat is a lift.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

As for point #4, just use the work formula. Work (J) = Force*Distance

I think we already do that plenty don't we?
I saw many such calcs.

 

[RisingIons]

I think we already do that plenty don't we?
I saw many such calcs.

Yeah, not sure if OP is aware or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Is this really necessary? I don't think that we remotely have the resources to spend on a massive wiki revisions project involving a very large part of character lifting strengths with all the other unfinished projects that are up in the air (such as the remaining tiering system changes in DontTalk's ongoing project), especially given the current uncertainty concerning the state of all our image galleries due to Fandom's system changes.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, not sure if OP is aware or not.

Yeah, we do.

Is this really necessary? I don't think that we remotely have the resources to spend on a massive wiki revisions project involving a very large part of character lifting strengths with all the other unfinished projects that are up in the air (such as the remaining tiering system changes), especially given the current uncertainty concerning the state of all our image galleries due to Fandom's system changes.

I think the reason for this is that there seems to be some disagreement on what's currently allowed or not.

 

[Jasonsith]

As for point #4, just use the work formula. Work (J) = Force*Distance

I am aware what we are currently using.
I am suggesting: Would Armorchompy's attempt to calculate a lifting strength actually trigger a new perspective on how striking strength should be measured. Like if we measure striking strength in joules then striking strength will essentially be a subset of attack potency. However if we measure striking strength in newtons then we may have a new scale. Like the same energy spent over a shorter distance can have a higher value of striking force.
I know this is a large project should anyone actually want it so I want to make sure if we can just dismiss it this time.

Jumping can lead to lifting strength.

True, but our debate motion is: Lifting strength should be limited to the mass of the object being moved (in the case of jumping, the jumper themselves). Which I believe should be such limited so as to not inflate lifting strength by deducing weight from KE.

 

[Armorchompy]

Again, Kinetic Energy isn't the only way to get LS from jumping or throwing. If getting LS from speed is what you're afraid of, then PE is still an option, and PE doesn't consider speed at all in its formula.

 

[Jasonsith]

Again, Kinetic Energy isn't the only way to get LS from jumping or throwing. If getting LS from speed is what you're afraid of, then PE is still an option, and PE doesn't consider speed at all in its formula.

But PE comes from KE. As if someone jumps and the KE is transferred to PE as the character stops at a certain height.
Remember 0.5 m v^2 = mgh where velocity direction is in the opposite direction of the gravitational pull.

Getting lifting strength more than weight of the object just by vertical jump is just wrong.



Oh it's reaching 2am in Asia I must sleep now ttyl

 

[Antvasima]

I think the reason for this is that there seems to be some disagreement on what's currently allowed or not.

Okay. Can you write a summary please?

 

[Jasonsith]

Our current rules about kinetic energy feats

Do not calculate speed from kinetic energy. One reason for this is that fiction in general differentiates between the attack potency and the speed of a character. Out of similar reasons mass should also not be calculated from it.

My proposition: this should also imply "lifting strength derived from moving an object should be limited to the mass of the object with some scientific adjustments out of similar reasons". If needed, we should write a note affixed to it.
This is reasonable as weight lifters, javelin throwers, jumpers and sprinters are all different.
Armorchompy disagrees as this allows "showing higher results from a feat that involves acceleration".
He says "The motion of jumping is still closer to a lift than a strike and that is not deniable. (?) The motion of a jump is also especially close to that of a throw. (?)"


Despite the above, the consensus is:
We can now deduce travel speed from vertical jumps and hurdle jumps which may be translated into combat speed and reactions on an individual case basis. (As a short note: real world horizontal running speed is usually far higher than vertical jump speed and hurdle jump speed. So estimation of travel speed from vertical jumps and hurdle jumps should be a lowball.)

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, here's a thing. I did not get neither mass nor speed from KE- I had both those values already. Also I wouldn't really say there's a consensus since not that many people contributed but that's just me

 

[AKM sama]

Sorry but does @Ursuul have a proper vsbattles.com account here? I have left a message at his/her/its/their wall just in case.

Ursuul doesn't take part in such threads.

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT @Ugarik

What do you think about Jason's suggestions?

 

[Armorchompy]

bump

 

[Migue79]

Whew. I’ve kept this in watch for awhile I forgot to say my bit.

I’ll do so once I get some calc requests done and over with.

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT @Ugarik

What do you think about Jason's suggestions?

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Ugarik

 

[Armorchompy]

bump

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

True, but our debate motion is: Lifting strength should be limited to the mass of the object being moved (in the case of jumping, the jumper themselves). Which I believe should be such limited so as to not inflate lifting strength by deducing weight from KE.

For M amount of mass you end up jumping higher for higher amount of force imparted on the ground compared to lesser force.

If we just find this upwards force I don't see any problems in that.
Limiting it to weight of object in question is.....well I mean....we already sustain our own weight simply standing up, so what you are proposing is redundant imo.

If person A and B have same mass, and if A jumps higher compared to B, then A has higher LS.

Obviously since this is fiction and there is practically no difference between leg strength, arm strength and grip strength etc...it easily translates into all facets of LS.

 

[Jasonsith]

For M amount of mass you end up jumping higher for higher amount of force imparted on the ground compared to lesser force.

If we just find this upwards force I don't see any problems in that.
Limiting it to weight of object in question is.....well I mean....we already sustain our own weight simply standing up, so what you are proposing is redundant imo.

If person A and B have same mass, and if A jumps higher compared to B, then A has higher LS.

Obviously since this is fiction and there is practically no difference between leg strength, arm strength and grip strength etc...it easily translates into all facets of LS.

The problem is: if a person jumps higher than another person with the same mass, in real life sense or in fiction, it usually means the person jumping higher is faster rather than stronger.

Calc stacking occurs if we say the person jumps faster and lifts heavier at the same time if the person jumps with the same weight but with just a higher height. The speed already covers the proportionate higher height.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Migue79 apologies for tagging you, but i believe you forgot to give your opinion

 

[Armorchompy]

The problem is: if a person jumps higher than another person with the same mass, in real life sense or in fiction, it usually means the person jumping higher is faster rather than stronger.

In real life, that makes absolutely no sense. In fiction, it's case by case at best

Calc stacking occurs if we say the person jumps faster and lifts heavier at the same time if the person jumps with the same weight but with just a higher height. The speed already covers the proportionate higher height.

Uh, no, that's not calc stacking at all. If you're jumping faster you're ALSO exerting more force, that's just the basic logic of it. In fact the speed is a RESULT of the force.

 

[Jasonsith]

Uh, no, that's not calc stacking at all. If you're jumping faster you're ALSO exerting more force

I see your point

In real life, that makes absolutely no sense. In fiction, it's case by case at best

I can agree that it should be evaluated case by case at best for fiction feats whether a lifting strength can be derived from accelerating a lighter object to a faster speed in a shorter time.


Well for anyone who wants to know why high jump has a direct impact on speed rather than lifting strength:
m g h = 0.5 m v^2
h = 0.5/g v^2 or v = (2 g h)^0.5

 

[Armorchompy]

I can agree that it should be evaluated case by case at best for fiction feats whether a lifting strength can be derived from accelerating a lighter object to a faster speed in a shorter time.

"Throwing thing is harder than lifting it and throwing thing faster is harder than throwing it slow" is basically common sense, though. Sure, one can argue a feat is an outlier, or that the writer did not intend it to be as impressive as it is, but that would only apply to specific feats, it shouldn't be a general rule.

 

[Jasonsith]

"Throwing thing is harder than lifting it and throwing thing faster is harder than throwing it slow" is basically common sense, though. Sure, one can argue a feat is an outlier, or that the writer did not intend it to be as impressive as it is, but that would only apply to specific feats, it shouldn't be a general rule.

F = ma right?
Then this will result into a speed yield and a KE yield, which translates to an attack potency yield at best, which imo actually fits more into the striking strength category.

I am basically puzzled on some seemingly different treatment on KE, speed and lifting strength (sometimes contradictory).

 

[Armorchompy]

Obviously we can't get a speed yield from these calculations, our rules prevent it and they should, but if speed is already known, whether through a statement or a calculation, then I think it's fine to get both striking strength (because of the KE of the throw) and LS (by using the various formulas we've talked about here) from the feat.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Basically what Armorchompy said.

 

[Jasonsith]

Obviously we can't get a speed yield from these calculations, our rules prevent it and they should, but if speed is already known, whether through a statement or a calculation, then I think it's fine to get both striking strength (because of the KE of the throw) and LS (by using the various formulas we've talked about here) from the feat.

I think the striking strength part can still be kept (but occasional cases are there barring KE feats be derived from such).
But the lifting strength... I really stand on a case by case review at best.


I see some people may actually want to have a looser line of accepting lifting strength by throwing a lighter object at a higher acceleration - or even - physically jumping higher as if the mass itself is the reference weight.
As if this is accepted, many speedsters and projectile spammers can actually gain far higher lifting strength than the author intends.

Maybe we have a better picture at the following example...

Say
Some contestants come for a ball throwing competition.
Each of them throw one ball at 10 metric ton at different speeds (except otherwise specified) as follows:
Contestant A: 343 m/s
Contestant B: 3430 m/s
Contestant C: 0.5 c m/s
Contestant D: 50 c m/s
Contestant E: he somehow cheated by throwing a lighter ball (say 100 kg) but throws it at 3430 m/s
Contestant F: he is being framed by having his ball switched to a heavier one (say 1000 metric ton) but he still throws it at 343 m/s
Contestant G: he somehow cheated by throwing a lighter ball (say 100 kg) but throws it at 50 c m/s
Contestant H: he is being framed by having his ball switched to a heavier one (say 1000 metric ton) but he still throws it at 0.05 c m/s
Contestant I: he somehow cheated by throwing a lighter ball (say 100 kg) but throws it at 500 c m/s
Contestant J: he is being framed by having his ball switched to a heavier one (say 1000 metric ton) but he still throws it at 5 c m/s

Assuming:
c here means speed of light
The mass of the balls the characters throw are the heaviest objects they can lift otherwise.
They throw their own balls within 1 second while yelling "hiyah" for 1 second.

Now, try to math the speed, KE and lifting strength of each combatant.

 

[Armorchompy]

?????? What does this math problem have to do with anything, and why should I waste so much time on it? If you wanna make a point make it yourself.

But the lifting strength... I really stand on a case by case review at best.

I see some people may actually want to have a looser line of accepting lifting strength by throwing a lighter object at a higher acceleration - or even - physically jumping higher as if the mass itself is the reference weight.
As if this is accepted, many speedsters and projectile spammers can actually gain far higher lifting strength than the author intends.

Listen, what you're worrying about here is just portrayal in verses. And that's absolutely not something that we should worry about in an empirical sense. We have a ton of verses that we rate as tier 6, 4, 2 through creation feats or whatever that I could argue the authors didn't envision as being that strong. However at the same time, it's very blatant to me that throwing an object, even a light one, at superhuman distances or speeds, should be a superhuman LS rating.

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem like this will be accepted...