New Sonic Page Controversy

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryu

I think k a second key it still necessary.

Sera and I will sort all the scaling, I promise.

And as for Adventure, Sera and I agree that Sonic games Unleashed differ enough from Adventure era games to earn another Era.

It's all in the first thread.

 

[Sera_EX]

The page only looks clustered because I was interrupted before I could clean it up. And yes I was originally going to make the tabs much more visually appealing.

 

[Ryukama]

It's not necessary. The form is not that notable and only has a few additonal powers added to him with no difference in the stats.

The Excalibur Sonic form and its powers can be listed in notable attacks/techniques. Excalibur Sonic can also have a picture of him on the tabber.

But I think for neatness sake, we shouldn't give him a whole new key for all his unchanged stats.

 

[Sera_EX]

That's fine. Excalibur Form is listed in Notable Techniques already.

 

[Ryukama]

@Sera Thank you.

 

[VenomElite]

Oh, if it's just structure, then a little time and all will be well. I mean, let's give Sera props for not only accumulating all this info, but also editing the page herself, right? It's ok if the first draft isn't perfect.

This. So much this. I mean, the page was cluttered and a mess to begin with and Sera tried to fix it. Truth be told, a lot of stuff on the page doesn't fit her revision. The revision that already passed and just wasn't applied. She originally wanted to redo the page entirely.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Ryukama I'm sorry for interrupting this discussion but is there are reasoning behind Super Sonic's "Multiverse Level" rating??? If there is it should probably be added to his page considering its a huge jump from his MSS rating.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's on his page and is further explained below....

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Wait really? Well sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[Ryukama]

@Sera

1. Is there any indication Solaris can destroy over 1000 timelines?

2. I remember you wrote some in depth explanation regarding Sonic and the Chaos Emeralds' variability. Perhaps maybe adding something like that to the bottom of the page under "Explanations" would be helpful as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

2-B is the standard assumed size for Multiverses in fiction, specially if they work under the "Parallel worlds" logic like it does in Sonic.

 

[Sera_EX]

Look, I originally was going to redo the page entirely as it's full of misinformation, and was treated as a composite page mixing up game feats that don't even match. I really wanted to separate Sonic completely: separate pages for the three Sonics + Boom Sonic in order to get rid of any inconsistencies or issues. But in the previous thread it was agreed upon that only keys are necrssary.

Seriously, I know we're all human but stuff like this discourages me from even making pages. You people act like you don't know what you want and all that's doing is confusing me. We had two threads about this already for Sonic alone...I wanted to finally revise his page as it's several months late. And eventually, I won't be able to revise anything for awhile. I wanted to do it now while things are easy, because when things start picking up, I'd rather not ponder about that "Sonic revision I never did".

So...I guess another thread is in order. In any case, maybe for the page, instead of tabs, I'll use tabbers. Keep everything one page but not cluttered up like that. Because that's a hell of a lot better than too many pages I suppose. But c'mon you guys have a problem with even tabbers, don't you?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No Sera, I like the current approach you are going to do. tabs are a great way to organize pages for characters with multiple incarnations throughout media.

Far better than disambiguation pages.

Also, know that I agree with your proposed Sonic ratings and will help you explaining and clearing things up.

No need to make another tread only to repeat what was said on the previous two. People can instead just go and read those again.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm sorry if I'm stressing you out. I simply have a few questions and issues that I respectfully wanted to address. I'm not criticizing you, blaming you for anything bad or trying to make you feel bad. I care for the quality and reliability of our pages just like you do.

I have no problem with having neat tabbers for some of Sonic's more notable incarnations. And I don't think I even expressed an issue with this new format you used unlike some others.

My main concerns are making sure the page is organized and that some powerscaling issues are dealt with.

 

[VenomElite]

Sorry. I know for a fact that wasn't directed at you Ryu, just everyone it seems.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ven It's okay and alright.

 

[Reppuzan]

I can't say I know a thing about the statistics, but I find the template system really appealing. It's disorganized right now due to issues outside of our control, but I think it'll be fine in the end and that we could use this for alternate continuity/significant alter ego profiles (i.e. Different versions of Superman, Game and Archie Mega Man/Sonic, and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryu

Speaking of powerscaling, in Sonic Runners story mode, Shadow, Amy, Blaze and Silver all have some Town - Mountain level feat in the game.

They each destroy a Death Egg.

The game is not main canon, but it shows the feats Game Sonic chars can do.

Even Classic Sonic has a feat on that level in Sonic CD.

 

[The_Everlasting]

2-B is the standard assumed size for Multiverses in fiction, specially if they work under the "Parallel worlds" logic like it does in Sonic.

That's not true at all... We work under 2-C unless we have a confirmed size of the multiverse beyond 1,000 universes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Since when? Multiverses in fiction are rarely that small, and if they work under a system of parallel worlds they are definitely much larger.

 

[Sera_EX]

If the Post Genesis Wave comic continuity is canon with the games, then we know the size of the multiverse. That however, is a debate for the next revision thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, there are statements from the Archie Guys that the games and comics share the same Multiverse.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Since... literally always?

"Rarely that small"

No, most fictions either say there is a multiverse and don't give a size, slap a "countless" on it, or say it's infinite. What's rare is for them to give an established size beyond 1,000 universes. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is World of Final Fantasy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Which is why the standard assumption for size should be 2-B, since most fictions either have countless or infinite universes, and with very few exceptions the only times they give a numbered limit it's less than 1,000.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I see no reason we should arbitrarily assume a fictional multiverse has more than a thousand universes if it never gives anything to imply such. Just because most other fictions have countless universes doesn't remotely mean something else does.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with Ever. We shouldn't assume arbitrary amounts of alternate universes just because some series do have countless universes. I'd much prefer it if we based the amount of universes based off statements.

 

[LordAizenSama]

What Ever said.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with The Everlasting.

 

[Arigarmy]

Ever does bring a valid point, so I'll chip in and agree with what he's saying. If it hasn't been stated, then it shouldn't be placed as such just because another is something it's not.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I agree with ever, we must not assume facts and only stick with the evidence provided from the games and other secondary mediums to be as accurate and truthful as possible.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I also side with Ever...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, like Sera, I would personally prefer separate pages for the different incarnations of the character, as it currently looks rather messy.

Perhaps she could simply save the source code text, and revert the profile to its previous state until she has had the time to finish writing it, and to update all of the profiles scaled from it accordingly?

 

[Ryukama]

I'm pretty sure most people won't like this. Which I'm completely fine with. Just wanted to bring up one possible solution for this "Too cluttered" issue people may have.

Perhaps instead of making this new format many aren't used to, or confusing and inconveniecing users with multiple pages to have to go through and find. We have one page, but keys are changed into tabbers. It'd look something like this.



Tier: 5-B


Attack Potency: Planet level (Can fight an Egg Robot powered up by the entirety of a planet's biosphere. He is somewhat comparable to an immature Dark Gaia, enough to harm it by attacking its eyes. Defeated Perfect Chaos in Sonic Generations)


Speed: At least FTL (Is considered "faster than light" in an official source and had his speed scientifically measured by one of Eggman's machines to exceed light. To which Sonic said that lightspeed was nothing to him. Although he couldn't completely outrun a Black Hole, he did do so for a large period of time.


Lifting Strength: Class 5+


Striking Strength: Planet Class


Durability: Planet level


Credit to Nibroc-Rock


Tier: 8-A


Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level+ (via a feat in Sonic CD)


Speed: At least FTL (Is considered "faster than light" in an official source and had his speed scientifically measured by one of Eggman's machines to exceed light. To which Sonic said that lightspeed was nothing to him. Although he couldn't completely outrun a Black Hole, he did do so for a large period of time.


Lifting Strength: Class 5+


Striking Strength: Multi-City Block Class+


Durability: Multi-City Block level+



Tier: 7-B


Attack Potency: City level (Fought weakened Chaos)


Speed: At least FTL (Is considered "faster than light" in an official source and had his speed scientifically measured by one of Eggman's machines to exceed light. To which Sonic said that lightspeed was nothing to him. Although he couldn't completely outrun a Black Hole, he did do so for a large period of time.


Lifting Strength: Class 5+


Striking Strength: City Class


Durability: City level



Tier: Low 2-C


Attack Potency: Universe level+ (Defeated Alf Layla-wa-Layla who stated that he was going to recreate the Arabian Nights reality and is powered by the World Rings)


Speed: Unknow. At least FTL+ (Far swifter than in base form), likely higher


Lifting Strength: Class 100+


Striking Strength: Universal+ (Reflected Alf Layla wa-Layla's strongest attack back at him)


Durability: Universe level+ (Took hits from Alf Layla wa-Layla)


Credit to Nibroc-Rock


Tier: Varies. from 4-A to 2-B at peak


Attack Potency: Varies from Multi-Solar-System level to Multiverse level at his peak


Speed: At least FTL+, likely higher


Lifting Strength: Class 100+


Striking Strength: Varies from Multi-Solar System Class, to Multiverse Class


Durability: Varies from Multi-Solar System level (Can take attacks from a full-power Gaia and is superior to the Final Egg Blaster), to Multiverse level at his peak

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't like it at all. Sorry, but it is way morre cluttered like that.

 

[Ryukama]

Now since I posted this format in a comment, it's going to look much less neat and organized then this being made into a proper Wikia page. Also more stats would be added to each tabber. Just wanted people to get the basic jist and not get confused/overwhelmed by too much.

Of course, again, this is only one possible solution I'm offering and I'm perfectly fine with this not being chosen. But keep those things in mind before deciding.

 

[Thebluedash]

Not sure how it's more cluttered as this is actually freeing the page up. If we use the other method, we would have that other template, plus the picture, plus the image tabber, plus other things.

Doing this will free up some top space.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It frankly looks ugly and only makes it more complicated to compare and analyze stats of various forms. And it would turn out a message with regards to things like quotes and summaries. You'd need text copies of them in every tab.

I'm not sure why the Tabber at the top seems so bad. It looks nice and attracts the user immediately to other versions of the same character. And there's no need to "Free space" since this is the internet, not a textbook. We have all the space we need for profiles.

 

[Ryukama]

My previous template looks horrible cause I tried condensing it into a Wikia comment. This is a lot more what it'd look like on a page.

Each Sonic form gets its own neat, organized profile. But we save on space and time by using tabbers and making it all on one Wikia page.

Every Sonic incarnation has an easy to read, neat section. But there's the convience of all of it being on one page without having to go through multiple other ones.

Again this is only a possible solution since people want more organization. But don't like the new tabbers or separate pages. I'm fine with whatever most people want.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

What about the fact that Adventure Sonic and Adventure Knuckles in Sonic Adventure on their own defeated Chaos 6(powered by 6 Chaos Emeralds) which powered theSpace Colony ARK and it was calculated to be at least 25 Zettatons aka Low 5-B?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The ARK calc is done really weirdly. I'll re do it.

Edit: And the scaling images are lost. I don't think we should use a calc without scaling images anyway.