(NEW CALCULATION) Changing Baseline 10-B and 10-A (TIERING SYSTEM CHANGE)

[Pikaman]

Anyway, a bit of a concern if we raise 10-A to 150 is that 10-A would literally just be 50 joules wide. I guess there's nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but that is a really tiny margin.

I guess but if that’s what the numbers lead us to there’s not much we can do about it

No, Superhuman is usable for a multitude of tiers beyond human capability. It's too vague for a name or a tier. It would only cause further confusion.

“Superhuman” can be used for a crap ton of LS Tiers too, didn’t stop us then

 

[Armorchompy]

9-C already includes superhuman statistics, already.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

9-C is for tiering Peakhumans, lower border Superhumans, and ballistics which are all appropriately named Street level.

 

[Pikaman]

9-C already includes superhuman statistics, already.

I mean as in a “Superhuman” Tier similar to the LS tier that is for incalculable but blatantly >9-C characters

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, sure.

That was a secondary concern too, though I think it also just makes indexing easier.

Anyway, a bit of a concern if we raise 10-A to 150 is that 10-A would literally just be 50 joules wide. I guess there's nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but that is a really tiny margin.

But 300 J is 150 joules away from 150 J.

Athlete level would still have a cap of 300 J.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean as in a “Superhuman” Tier similar to the LS tier that is for incalculable but blatantly >9-C characters

You cannot give anyone an AP tier without an appropriate calculation or a common feat being that level. It's against the rules.

If they're Superhuman by an unknown degree, calculate the feat that made them superhuman in the first place.

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, a bit of a concern if we raise 10-A to 150 is that 10-A would literally just be 50 joules wide. I guess there's nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but that is a really tiny margin.

Should we increase/raise the energy value for the upper border of tier 10-A as well then, and if so, is somebody here willing and able to find some useful information in this regard that we can base it on?

 

[KLOL506]

Should we increase/raise the energy value for the upper border of tier 10-A as well then, and if so, is somebody here willing and able to find some useful information in this regard that we can base it on?

I guess we should prolly ask @DontTalkDT or @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan for the best course of action.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, a bit of a concern if we raise 10-A to 150 is that 10-A would literally just be 50 joules wide. I guess there's nothing wrong with it in a vacuum but that is a really tiny margin.

Should we increase/raise the energy value for the upper border of tier 10-A as well then, and if so, is somebody here willing and able to find some useful information in this regard that we can base it on?

I guess we should prolly ask @DontTalkDT or @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan for the best course of action.

@Executor_N0 @Antoniofer @Therefir @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo @Ugarik @Mr._Bambu @Jasonsith

Do any of you have useful suggestions here?

 

[Pikaman]

Should we increase/raise the energy value for the upper border of tier 10-A as well then

I think our 10-A upper border is actually based on a study as to the energy outputs of different actions in elite level sports, so unlike the upper and possibly lower border of 10-B it’s actually based on something solid. If 10-A ends up really small there’s nothing we can really do about it so long as the evidence supports the tier being so minuscule

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Ain't got time to read all the posts above, but from a quick glance:

-Yes, humans can indeed take some 9-C attacks, because real life durability is way more complex than our simplified system. Certain 9-C attacks will immediately kill a human like a bullet to the head or even a baseball bat, others won't make a scratch like ramming into someone running. The difference is negligible for higher tiers with wide borders, but it is what it is for low tiers (which is why I'm currently trying to revise real world profile standards over in the animal thread).

-300 Joules is not based on any concrete value, but it was sort of a compromise, to prevent making the average athlete in the 100-200 Joule range "Athletic level+" but not reaching 400 Joules either which is the value for many bullets. Again, real life attack potency/durability is way more complicated than our system, so you will find tons of counter-examples, it is just sort of an approximate boundary.

-I don't see a big difference between 100 and 150 Joules as the lower boundary since most sports are in the 100ish Joules range. Neutral.

 

[Armorchompy]

To be honest, what's so bad about bullets being 10-A? It feels weird but there's not much wrong with it, is there? Like I don't think we need to make any changes but it shouldn't be holding us back.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Tbh I agree yeah, especially since we acknowledge the fact that they have low AP according to our system that doesn't take surface area into account.

I suppose the only issue would be bullet-proof people being rated low, but we could always just slap a generic 9-C for being superhuman since they presumably will be able to take large forces over larger area.

 

[Ugarik]

Kinetic Energy vs. Probability of Fatality

Discussion based upon data from: Jon Henderson, Lethality Criteria For Debris Generated From Accidental Explosions, Department of Defense Explosives Safety Board Seminar (34th) held in Portland, Or…

miniuavsafety.wordpress.com

 

[Ugarik]

Explanation:

Kinetic Energy vs. Probability of Fatality

Discussion based upon data from: Jon Henderson, Lethality Criteria For Debris Generated From Accidental Explosions, Department of Defense Explosives Safety Board Seminar (34th) held in Portland, Or…

miniuavsafety.wordpress.com

It actually has little to do with surface area. Human fist is made of relatively soft and weak tissue. So when you land a punch more than 50% of impact energy goes back into your arm.

This issue can be fixed with brass knuckles

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Now that you mention it I'm pretty sure that's the reason we rejected 9-C durability for regular humans.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sorry to intrude, but I found a method that calculates punching power. I experimented with it using the Armored Titan. I can make a calc for regular humans as well.

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry to intrude, but I found a method that calculates punching power. I experimented with it using the Armored Titan. I can make a calc for regular humans as well.

Units must all be in metric, surface area of the fist included, you must measure the area by taking the height from knuckle-to-finger joint height and the width from the little finger to the index finger. Not everyone will have the same fist size either.

Also you need the displacement value for the punch, since Work = F x s. And prolly take into account that the hand also takes in 50% of the impact because it's not solid but rather flesh and bone.

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Ugarik @Antoniofer @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo

Are any of you interested in helping out here, or continuing to do so if you have replied here already?

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Ugarik @Antoniofer @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo

Are any of you interested in helping out here, or continuing to do so if you have replied here already?

I have already tagged pretty much all of them in the opening posts, and you tagged the other people that were left to be tagged.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies about that then.

 

[DMUA]

Are any of you interested in helping out here

the OP literally wants to move 10-A up by 4 joules

words cannot express how profoundly I do not care, and also the huell calc takes wild assumptions and shouldn't be anywhere near thought about in terms of this stuff

 

[KLOL506]

the OP literally wants to move 10-A up by 4 joules

Technically by 50, since 10-B caps at 100 J currently, we wanna change that to 150.

words cannot express how profoundly I do not care,

F

and also the huell calc takes wild assumptions and shouldn't be anywhere near thought about in terms of this stuff

Yeah I already stated that. The Huell calc is bonkers and should just be rejected outright.

 

[Pikaman]

the OP literally wants to move 10-A up by 4 joules

words cannot express how profoundly I do not care, and also the huell calc takes wild assumptions and shouldn't be anywhere near thought about in terms of this stuff

I am begging you to read through the thread, we are past the Huell calc period of this discussion and have been for some time

 

[KLOL506]

I am begging you to read through the thread, we are past the Huell calc period of this discussion and have been for some time

Then remove the Huell calc from the OP. It's sus as ****.

 

[Pikaman]

Then remove the Huell calc from the OP. It's sus as ****.

Good point, I’ll get the OP updated if that is making staff disinterested in the discussion below

 

[Pikaman]

The OP has been updated to better reflect current discussion

Now CGMs have no excuse /hj /lh

 

[DMUA]

150 Joules seems to be popular atm, we have 2 different sources claiming that to be the figure but neither seem to be sourced)

the basis for this change is two unsourced, random articles, one of which uses joules, an energy value, in reference to force

the things I get pinged to

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies if that is the case then.

 

[Pikaman]

the things I get pinged to

There is other revisions on the OP, and there’s better ways to express you disagree with that specific proposal than coming off as rude

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Not staff, but I want to address something on bullets:
Why the hell is it such a big deal if guns become 10-A?

Bullets are lethal not because of their kinetic energy, but because they exploit the mechanics of "pressure".

Hell, even .22 LR can easily cause fatal injuries was was even used for assassinations before by the military, and the .22 LR only reaches between ~130 to 200 joules; 10-A to barely 10-A+

Also, other .22" calibers such as .22 Long, and .22 Short can still cause serious injury to humans, and these are typically only in the 60 Joule range...not even 10-B+, and can still be deadly to humans.

The point is: bullets don't kill from energy, but because they exploit the living hell out of pressure. It shouldn't matter what tier they are, especially since bullets can sometimes take down much larger targets.

For example: A .44 Magnum is capable of taking down a grizzly bear, which a .44 Mag only reaches upwards of 1,000 joules; a value a grizzly bear is vastly above. Hell, there was a report that a 9mm killed a grizzly bear as well...sure the bear endured the initial hit, but it was found dead the very next day.

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Not staff, but I want to address something on bullets:
Why the hell is it such a big deal if guns become 10-A?

Bullets are lethal not because of their kinetic energy, but because they exploit the mechanics of "pressure".

Hell, even .22 LR can easily cause fatal injuries was was even used for assassinations before by the military, and the .22 LR only reaches between ~130 to 200 joules; 10-A to barely 10-A+

Also, other .22" calibers such as .22 Long, and .22 Short can still cause serious injury to humans, and these are typically only in the 60 Joule range...not even 10-B+, and can still be deadly to humans.

The point is: bullets don't kill from energy, but because they exploit the living hell out of pressure. It shouldn't matter what tier they are, especially since bullets can sometimes take down much larger targets.

For example: A .44 Magnum is capable of taking down a grizzly bear, which a .44 Mag only reaches upwards of 1,000 joules; a value a grizzly bear is vastly above. Hell, there was a report that a 9mm killed a grizzly bear as well...sure the bear endured the initial hit, but it was found dead the very next day.

Don't we have an accepted calculation for the required tier to be completely bulletproof? Shouldn't we use that to scale from for such cases instead, or create a chart that displays the tiers that are required to withstand different types of firearms and place it in our references for common feats page?

 

[KLOL506]

Don't we have an accepted calculation for the required tier to be completely bulletproof?

Shouldn't we use that to scale from for such cases instead,

We don't, it wielded 8-B to 8-A last I remember, but that was rejected.

or create a chart that displays the tiers that are required to withstand different types of firearms and place it in our references for common feats page?

Waaaaaaaaaay too many firearms in the world for that to happen. You'd have to account for every variant as well.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

8-B for the most powerful firearm caliber can can be humanly used. 9mm was like 9-A to be bulletproof.

But even 9mm can still inflict life-threatening injuries to 9-B creatures such as grizzly bears like stated above. Sure not an immediate kill, but it can eventually kill it. So 9-A actually sounds somewhat reasonable to be bulletproof.

Also, infection is definitely a thing. Even if much stronger creature can tank a gunshot, if the bullet at least breaks through the skin, infection can still take place.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Waaaaaaaay too many firearms in the world for that to happen. You'd have to account for every variant as well.

Just do the most typical/common ones then.

The chart for destroying material doesn't list every single material that exists now, does it? So what's the problem with listing the most typical bullets? Also, something is still better than nothing anyways.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I have a minor disagreement with the calc to be bulletproof, in the case of of it using the difference between the surface area of a human with the contact area of a bullet tip.

I believe simply using 1 m² would be much better to use than the surface area of a person, which would actually downgrade the durability by a decent bit; almost half. (it would also make it not reliant on the size of a creature, as larger creatures would actually inflate the surface area difference)

Using 1m² and pixel scaling a 9mm bullet tip, I found the contact area to be like 14.7mm². That's an area difference of around 67,910, now using 481 joules for a 9mm, that comes to around being able to endure 33,530,510 joules to become bulletproof to 9mm. (9-A)

Now note: This isn't just tanking 9mm, but outright being bulletproof to them.