(NEW CALCULATION) Changing Baseline 10-B and 10-A (TIERING SYSTEM CHANGE)

[Pikaman]

NOTE: STAFF ONLY

---

Current most pressing matter:

A calculation finding the average human punch’s energy in joules has been accepted, stating that the average human punch is anywhere from 64.76993704 Joules to 99.55379212 Joules. Should we correspondingly change the baseline of 10-B to 65 Joules?

Agree: @Antvasima @Damage3245 @Psychomaster35 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree: 0

Neutral: @Mr._Bambu (Leans Disagree) @KLOL506 (Leans Agree)

---

Ok so the discussion has moved on quite a bit since the OP, Huell calc got chucked, so here’s our current issues being discussed, and a progress update on a few




- What is the energy in joules of an average Human’s punch? Should that be used as baseline 10-A? (150 Joules seems to be popular atm, we have 2 different sources claiming that to be the figure but neither seem to be sourced)

- What is baseline 10-B based on, are there more solid figures? (Like the 37.5 Joules posted below)

- Should baseline 9-C be increased? (It’s being considered) Should we have issue with the prospect of 10-A guns? (Answer seems to be “no”, though of course DT has not yet weighed in

---

And then some things that were brought up in this thread, but are not inherently linked to it

- Should we rename 9-C to “Peak Human Tier”? (Seems to be rather unpopular, but does have support)

- Should we create a “Superhuman” Tier for characters with incalculable but very obviously > 9-C levels of power/feats? (All but rejected)

---

So rather recently there were the discussion of changing the One Shot gap here on the wiki because of this calc showing a human punching getting 9-C results, and the whole point was 9-Cs should one shot 10-Bs based on our current system (it’s literally where we get the multiplier from.) But it got me thinking, because apparently we can just... do KE for punches like that? Nobody objected to that blog on the thread, and the comments on the blog really only have problems with the speed used. So if we applied that calc to an “average human” with baseline Athletic Human (or in other words highest possible Average Human) Speed, surely that would provide a more concrete figure than our current 100 Joules, which from asking around seems to be based on approximating from this.

So let’s do that


Average Human weighs 136 lbs

human arm accounts for 5.70% of body weight

Therefore average human arm weighs 7.752 lbs, or 3.5162481KG for civilised people

Our baseline for Athletic Human Speed is 7.7m/s

KE = 1/2mv^2

So 104.2391749245 Joules, which we can probably round up to 104.24 Joules

I’m not sure if the higher ends of “Average Human” could mean using higher than average average weights (If that makes sense) like how The average weight in North America is higher than the Global Average, but I think we’re better just using Global Average

 

[InfiniteDay]

Proposition:

- Move Baseline 10-A up from 100J to 100.24J

Let's get this out of the way first (also do you mean 104.24j?)

 

[Pikaman]

Let's get this out of the way first (also do you mean 104.24j?)

I admit 4.24 Joules is like the teensiest little increase but it still probably needs made

 

[Pikaman]

also do you mean 104.24j

Yes

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Move Baseline 10-A up from 100 Joules to 100.24 Joules

I think you meant 104.24 Joules.

 

[Pikaman]

I think you meant 104.24 Joules.

It’s been fixed

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You deserve this btw Pika:

 

[Pikaman]

Added a vote count

 

[KLOL506]

Given that this is an important tier change revision, this thread should be preferably made Staff-Only and all the calc members should be tagged in.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Dark-Carioca @Armorchompy @DMUA @Therefir @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @DemonGodMitchAubin @CloverDragon03 @Psychomaster35 @Migue79 @Aguywhodoesthings @Jasonsith @Agnaa @Wokistan @Damage3245 Your opinions here would be appreciated.

 

[Pikaman]

this thread should be preferably made Staff-Only

I have listed this thread as such in the OP now

 

[KLOL506]

I would like to contribute.

This link tells me that the average human can dish out 135-150 joules with a punch.

Wonder what this would result in for the tiers.

If you ask me, I'd suggest increasing the cap to 135-150 J.

 

[Pikaman]

I would like to contribute.

This link tells me that the average human can dish out 135-150 joules.

Wonder what this would result in for the tiers.

If you ask me, I'd suggest increasing the cap to 135-150 J.

I did see this link, but considering it could be using its own definitions for different variables (such as “Average Speed”) when compared to this wiki, I thought it might be best to do our own calc. Also, it lists the average punch from an average guy as 135-150 J, it says an average human going all out would manage 250-300 J later down

 

[KLOL506]

I did see this link, but considering it could be using its own definitions for different variables (such as “Average Speed”) when compared to this wiki, I thought it might be best to do our own calc. Also, it lists the average punch from an average guy as 135-150 J, it says an average human going all out would manage 250-300 J later down

Baseline punching speed is 15 mph (6.705 m/s) for these dudes. The speed should preferably be lowered as well.

 

[Phoenks]

Question: Why do we use punches for baseline human levels when a human running, kicking, hammering, jumping, and etc release 9-C levels worth of energy and humans can pretty much tank that kind of thing without much issue?

Like, punches are among some of the weakest strikes humans can perform. And it is really weird to me that we rate "normal humans" as 10-B and 10-A considering if they just run or kick, they are producing 9-C energy.

The durability is even weirder. Humans can take one hell of a beating. Kicks and punches won't knock out a person unless they hit a sensitive part of the body, or they are getting hit constantly. Tackles will usually only knock them down at most. So it's weird that we give normal people 10-B durability, considering normal people have 9-C durability.

Hell, I heard that the potential energy of a 65kg person standing is already into 9-C territory.

 

[KLOL506]

Question: Why do we use punches for baseline human levels when a human running, kicking, hammering, jumping, and etc release 9-C levels worth of energy and humans can pretty much tank that kind of thing without much issue?

Like, punches are among some of the weakest strikes humans can perform. And it is really weird to me that we rate "normal humans" as 10-B and 10-A considering if they just run or kick, they are producing 9-C energy.

The durability is even weirder. Humans can take one hell of a beating. Kicks and punches won't knock out a person unless they hit a sensitive part of the body, or they are getting hit constantly. Tackles will usually only knock them down at most. So it's weird that we give normal people 10-B durability, considering normal people have 9-C durability.

Hell, I heard that the potential energy of a 65kg person standing is already into 9-C territory.

These are all indeed valid concerns.

 

[Phoenks]

Also, this is somewhat unrelated and related but I really feel like there are four changes that should happen in the low-level tiers.

1.10-B and 10-A need to be changed, as suggested here.
2. 9-C/Street level's name should be changed to Peak Human level. It makes more sense and lines up with the lifting strength name.
3. The lower threshold for 9-C needs to be increased, which could potentially be discussed on this thread. At the moment, everything from kicks to running would be 9-C.
4. We should add a new tier between 9-C and 9-B called "Superhuman level" which does the same job as Superhuman lifting strength: "Any level clearly above peak human (street level) that does not have an exact value." Basically, characters would get this instead of being baseline 9-B for just having feats that are clearly above 9-C levels of strength. There are a lot of characters currently that are baseline 9-B which have no calcs and were basically just put there because of this reason.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Question: Why do we use punches for baseline human levels when a human running, kicking, hammering, jumping, and etc release 9-C levels worth of energy and humans can pretty much tank that kind of thing without much issue?

Like, punches are among some of the weakest strikes humans can perform. And it is really weird to me that we rate "normal humans" as 10-B and 10-A considering if they just run or kick, they are producing 9-C energy.

The durability is even weirder. Humans can take one hell of a beating. Kicks and punches won't knock out a person unless they hit a sensitive part of the body, or they are getting hit constantly. Tackles will usually only knock them down at most. So it's weird that we give normal people 10-B durability, considering normal people have 9-C durability.

Hell, I heard that the potential energy of a 65kg person standing is already into 9-C territory.

Phoenks spittin' rn

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Phoenks spittin' rn

It's probably best to not make comments like this in a staff only thread, even if the intentions were good or not.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

It's probably best to not make comments like this in a staff only thread, even if the intentions were good or not.

Didn't see it was staff only, my bad.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, this is somewhat unrelated and related but I really feel like there are four changes that should happen in the low-level tiers.

1.10-B and 10-A need to be changed, as suggested here.

Only the energy thresholds required to achieve them. There will be no naming changes here.

2. 9-C/Street level's name should be changed to Peak Human level. It makes more sense and lines up with the lifting strength name.

Has been rejected before, Street level is more in reference to "Streetfighting". Contextually, Street level still makes considerably more sense.

3. The lower threshold for 9-C needs to be increased, which could potentially be discussed on this thread. At the moment, everything from kicks to running would be 9-C.

This change will prolly not be allowed as it was deemed that it would make a majority of our handgun profiles underpowered and making them Athlete level while they can one-shot practically anyone due to piercing damage would be just disingenuous. You'd have to convince @DontTalkDT on this.

4. We should add a new tier between 9-C and 9-B called "Superhuman level" which does the same job as Superhuman lifting strength: "Any level clearly above peak human (street level) that does not have an exact value." Basically, characters would get this instead of being baseline 9-B for just having feats that are clearly above 9-C levels of strength. There are a lot of characters currently that are baseline 9-B which have no calcs and were basically just put there because of this reason.

I don't see the point. It'd be the same as trying to add tiers between 4-B and 4-A. Both 9-C and 4-B are quite big tiers for what they represent.

 

[Phoenks]

Has been rejected before, Street level is more in reference to "Streetfighting". Contextually, Street level still makes considerably more sense.

How exactly does that make more sense?

I'm confused, even knowing off the context being "Streetfighting." It seems to be unclear what exactly that refers to. The fighting games? People who street fight in real life?

With "Peak Human" you clearly know what the tier refers to in terms of strength.

This change will prolly not be allowed as it was deemed that it would make a majority of our handgun profiles underpowered and making them Athlete level while they can one-shot practically anyone due to piercing damage would be just disingenuous. You'd have to convince @DontTalkDT on this.

Well, then every normal human on Earth is Street level/9-C because we can all easily produce upwards of 300 joules by kicking, jumping, tackling, etc.

I don't see why guns are the thing preventing a nonsensical energy baseline. Everyone should know that guns are deadly not because of energy alone, but because they apply a lot of energy to a small surface area, which gives the piercing damage effect. In this regard, the tier for them should not matter. Especially shouldn't prevent something more important like what I'm suggesting.

Simply list that they can potentially harm higher-tiered characters due to piercing damage. Or "Higher with piercing damage"

I don't see the point. It'd be the same as trying to add tiers between 4-B and 4-A. Both 9-C and 4-B are quite big tiers for what they represent.

I don't see how you are drawing the conclusion that it's the same as between 4-B and 4-A. Could you elaborate?

4-B and 4-A are pretty simple definition-wise. And I've never seen someone be given 4-A because they were "clearly stronger than 4-B" because that would just be scaling above 4-B.

The 9-B thing I bring up is weird, though. On this wiki, it seems to be accepted that if someone is "clearly beyond 9-C levels of strength" but they have no exact calculation, they get granted baseline 9-B. I feel like these people should just be put in their own tier above 9-C which acts as a placeholder, in "Superhuman"

And like I said, this sort of thing is already done for Lifting Strength.

 

[KLOL506]

How exactly does that make more sense?

I'm confused, even knowing off the context being "Streetfighting." It seems to be unclear what exactly that refers to. The fighting games? People who street fight in real life?

With "Peak Human" you clearly know what the tier refers to in terms of strength.

No, actual fighting in the streets itself.

Well, then every normal human on Earth is Street level/9-C because we can all easily produce upwards of 300 joules by kicking, jumping, tackling, etc.

I don't see why guns are the thing preventing a nonsensical energy baseline. Everyone should know that guns are deadly not because of energy alone, but because they apply a lot of energy to a small surface area, which gives the piercing damage effect. In this regard, the tier for them should not matter. Especially shouldn't prevent something more important like what I'm suggesting.

I believe another issue was that these people would need to be consistently able to dish out that much energy without tiring themselves out or hurting themselves in the process as well. Not every person can withstand a 9-C tackle into a wall or straight into the ground at top speed without breaking bones, and without proper training to their legs and fists, they could end up breaking their own hands making those 9-C punches as well.

I don't see how you are drawing the conclusion that it's the same as between 4-B and 4-A. Could you elaborate?

The fact that 9-C preferably refers to feats that can be performed within the maximum limit of human potential, and feats performed by some animals that aren't as large as rhinos or elephants.

The 9-B thing I bring up is weird, though. On this wiki, it seems to be accepted that if someone is "clearly beyond 9-C levels of strength" but they have no exact calculation, they get granted baseline 9-B.

Not anymore. You need calculations to show they're 9-B.

 

[Phoenks]

No, actual fighting in the streets itself.

How does this make more sense than peak human, eh? Am I missing something here?

I believe another issue was that these people would need to be consistently able to dish out that much energy without tiring themselves out or hurting themselves in the process as well. Not every person can withstand a 9-C tackle into a wall or straight into the ground at top speed without breaking bones, and without proper training to their legs and fists, they could end up breaking their own hands making those 9-C punches as well.

You can't consistently run around or kick without hurting yourself? What?

Also, all attacks tire you. Why is that being brought up?

A normal man would definitely survive a normal man running at him at normal man speed. In fact, I'm sure all of us have been accidentally tackled like that before. Probably knocked down by it, or maybe even shrugged it off. Most of those kinds of actions would be well into 9-C. Also, by virtue of newton's third law by withstanding yourself jumping or tackling someone you are 9-C as well.

Even a normal man jogging at 3.5 m/s produces upwards of 400 joules kinetic energy.

Not anymore. You need calculations to show they're 9-B.

Are you sure about this? Most of the baseline 9-Bs I've seen on the site still just have a bunch of vaguely superhuman stuff listed as proof.

 

[KLOL506]

How does this make more sense than peak human, eh? Am I missing something here?


You can't consistently run around or kick without hurting yourself? What?

Try running into a wall at full speed.

Try punching way too hard above your weight class, you'll break something. It's why boxers train their hands to not do so. Look up "Boxer's fracture".

Also, all attacks tire you. Why is that being brought up?

Whether it tires you out in one go is the question.

A normal man would definitely survive a normal man running at him at normal man speed.

Into a wall? He'd end up with multiple injuries to himself and break some bones. That is not at all grounds for scaling.

In fact, I'm sure all of us have been accidentally tackled like that before. Probably knocked down by it, or maybe even shrugged it off.

Football tackles can rupture organs even when not rammed into a wall.

Most of those kinds of actions would be well into 9-C. Also, by virtue of newton's third law by withstanding yourself jumping or tackling someone you are 9-C as well.

Body parts are not linear in durability in real life. It's why most IRL animals got downgraded because they can often at times kill themselves by ramming into each other.

Even a normal man jogging at 3.5 m/s produces upwards of 400 joules kinetic energy.

Can he survive ramming another person of similar weight ramming him and coming to a dead stop?

Because even bulls can get accidentally killed trying to do so.

Are you sure about this? Most of the baseline 9-Bs I've seen on the site still just have a bunch of vaguely superhuman stuff listed as proof.

Then they should prolly be looked into. Do they actually have any feats of busting down large enough walls or solid wooden doors? 15,000 J is the baseline for Wall level based on .50 BMG rounds.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I hope that @DontTalkDT and our other calc group members will be willing to help out here.

 

[Pikaman]

Baseline punching speed is 15 mph (6.705 m/s) for these dudes.

Well yes, but that goes against our listing of 7.7m/s as baseline Athletic Human combat speed

Question: Why do we use punches for baseline human levels when a human running, kicking, hammering, jumping, and etc release 9-C levels worth of energy and humans can pretty much tank that kind of thing without much issue?

Like, punches are among some of the weakest strikes humans can perform. And it is really weird to me that we rate "normal humans" as 10-B and 10-A considering if they just run or kick, they are producing 9-C energy.

The durability is even weirder. Humans can take one hell of a beating. Kicks and punches won't knock out a person unless they hit a sensitive part of the body, or they are getting hit constantly. Tackles will usually only knock them down at most. So it's weird that we give normal people 10-B durability, considering normal people have 9-C durability.

Hell, I heard that the potential energy of a 65kg person standing is already into 9-C territory.

I feel that’s the much wider issue of everyday stuff getting 9-C results. Humans having what is pretty much 9-C durability is tricky, but I used a punch because

A: It was pertinent to that other calc, which is what inspired me to do this revision

B: Punches are, for the most part, the assumption made when someone discusses hitting something. If someone can punch harder than any “Average” person (>104.24J) Then they probably shouldn’t be in 10-B. If someone can’t punch at that level, then they shouldn’t be near 10-A. Yes, humans running, kicking, or just standing and jumping can produce 9-C results, but I think punching is a good technique to use because it is the naturally first though of attack by a human. We would have to completely overhaul our lower tiers in really ridiculous ways to fix the issue of humans getting 9-C so often, so I found it just better to use punching, rather than dabble in what I personally think is a bullet we will always have to bite in the form of the many other ways humans can produce results they really shouldn’t.

9-C/Street level's name should be changed to Peak Human level. It makes more sense and lines up with the lifting strength name.

Agreed, it sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to all the other names and what they represent. Not to mention “Street Fighters” is such a weird term in the first place to describe what it does.

No, actual fighting in the streets itself

If I shove a baby into an illegal fighting ring in some alleyway it isn’t 9-C because it’s now a “Streetfighter”, it’s a classification of the type of fighting someone does, not a certain level of power

4. We should add a new tier between 9-C and 9-B called "Superhuman level" which does the same job as Superhuman lifting strength: "Any level clearly above peak human (street level) that does not have an exact value." Basically, characters would get this instead of being baseline 9-B for just having feats that are clearly above 9-C levels of strength. There are a lot of characters currently that are baseline 9-B which have no calcs and were basically just put there because of this reason

Yeah, a tier like this for characters with incalculable but very clearly above 9-C level feats makes a lot of sense. Helps clear out baseline 9-B as well as Unknown tier

 

[Armorchompy]

2. 9-C/Street level's name should be changed to Peak Human level. It makes more sense and lines up with the lifting strength name.

Maybe, yeah.

3. The lower threshold for 9-C needs to be increased, which could potentially be discussed on this thread. At the moment, everything from kicks to running would be 9-C.

As I recall 9-C is low so bullets do not end up in 10-A. Which is kinda weird admittedly.

4. We should add a new tier between 9-C and 9-B called "Superhuman level" which does the same job as Superhuman lifting strength: "Any level clearly above peak human (street level) that does not have an exact value." Basically, characters would get this instead of being baseline 9-B for just having feats that are clearly above 9-C levels of strength. There are a lot of characters currently that are baseline 9-B which have no calcs and were basically just put there because of this reason.

9-C already includes superhuman strength values, no human's gonna be outputting anything even close to 15KJ of energy unless you drop them from a high place. So I disagree on this.

Can't say I have any opinions on moving the 10-B/10-A border but I disagree with using tackles as a point of reference, if you get hit by one most of the energy is lost and the one that hits you is spread over a wide area, you're absolutely not "tanking" them in any way. I would also bring to attention that a 150 joules hit to the head will often be lethal, so it couldn't be higher than that. Speaking of which, I disagree that humans can "tank" beatings so easily, a good hit will absolutely floor you, even a punch.

Also if you punch a wall at full force you will absolutely get hurt, hell you can hurt yourself even by punching other people.

 

[Pikaman]

Can't say I have any opinions on moving the 10-B/10-A border

Mind if I put you down as neutral?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think changing it is fine it just depends on what we're changing it to. But I don't think weight of arm x athletic human running speed is how you should calculate a punch, there's a lot of nuances in a punch that that doesn't include.

 

[KLOL506]

Can't say I have any opinions on moving the 10-B/10-A border but I disagree with using tackles as a point of reference, if you get hit by one most of the energy is lost and the one that hits you is spread over a wide area, you're absolutely not "tanking" them in any way. I would also bring to attention that a 150 joules hit to the head will often be lethal, so it couldn't be higher than that. Speaking of which, I disagree that humans can "tank" beatings so easily, a good hit will absolutely floor you, even a punch.

Linear momentum is a thing here too.

Also if you punch a wall at full force you will absolutely get hurt, hell you can hurt yourself even by punching other people.

Yeah, I already mentioned that, it's called "Boxer's fracture".

 

[KLOL506]

I think changing it is fine it just depends on what we're changing it to. But I don't think weight of arm x athletic human running speed is how you should calculate a punch, there's a lot of nuances in a punch that that doesn't include.

The punching speed is slightly lower than that as per the article I posted.

Punches do include more than just lunging your arm forwards, it involves throwing your body weight into it too, just like with a kick, to keep up the momentum.

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyhow, personally, I think scaling to punching strength, whatever that ends up being, is what we should do for the border between 10-B and 10-A.

 

[Pikaman]

Are there any alternatives methods to calculating the average punch that come to mind?

KLOL’s article saying 250-300J is the maximum output an average person’s punch can give could prove useful

 

[KLOL506]

Are there any alternatives methods to calculating the average punch that come to mind?

KLOL’s article saying 250-300J is the maximum output an average person’s punch can give could prove useful

I wouldn't use this for average Joes at all. We don't use their peak outputs, but their average outputs that they can dish out without having to go all out. The 250-300 J end should preferably be left for Athletes. I doubt that they would be able to land the peak outputs consistently over each punch without seriously hurting themselves.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd be willing to use 135/150 J but is the source really reliable? They don't seem to explain anything beyond just making the claim.

 

[KLOL506]

I'd be willing to use 135/150 J but is the source really reliable? They don't seem to explain anything beyond just making the claim.

I'd say so, given that the KE for arm mass alone and the punching speed reliably measure up to that claim, or close to it. (80 J for 62 kg people punching at 15 mph).

 

[Pikaman]

I wouldn't use this for average Joes at all. We don't use their peak outputs, but their average outputs that they can dish out without having to go all out. The 250-300 J end should preferably be left for Athletes. I doubt that they would be able to land the peak outputs consistently over each punch without seriously hurting themselves.

Shouldn’t baseline 10-A be ~= to a 10-B going all out though, rather than their general ability? Otherwise all humans would be “10-B, 10-A going all out”

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

The change being made is fine, but I'm not for the OP's calc for a new tier window. If we're rating it off of IRL stuff better to just find a study that goes over this imo.