(NEED STAFF EVALUATIONS!!) GGZ Yog Sothoth Tier 0 - Finalizing

[Weaver261]

This is a continuation thread from this one

Thread 'GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade'

Jul 24, 2024

Okay. I know it sounds insane and it really is. But let me cook here a bit.
Gun Girl Z or Houkai Gakuen 2 is the first story canon gacha game of Mihoyo.
In this game, there're Outer gods and "Mythical" godheads. Most Mythical Gods are conceptual beings. All of them exist in a meta fictional place called Babylon Academy. Beyond Space and Time gods exist beyond Universe which is used as 宇宙. 宇宙 = Universe term which refers to a structure that contains every canon games Mihoyo ever produced. This term is often used when talking about Imaginary...

• Weaver261
• honkai honkai gakuen 2 mihoyo
• Replies: 414
• Forum: Content Revision

• 

This is the profile to publish

Weaver261/Yog Sothoth

vsbattles.fandom.com

The previous thread was a disaster due to absurd amount of derailing with 11 pages for no good reason. This thread is for finalizing Yog Sothoth profile and to publish it. 3 Staffs has already agreed. I will list all arguments of members who don't agree with Tier 0 and debunk them one by one.

Important Note : If you don't have any substantial arguments that are based actual scans, it's highly important not to derail the thread with irrelevant topics.

Spoiler: (This is not really relavent to Tier 0) Argument - GGZ is not connected Honkai Universe

Some abbreviations we will be using here - Hi3 (Honkai Impact 3rd), GGZ (Guns Girl Z), HG2 (Houkai Gakuen 2 = GGZ), HSR (honkai star rail)

First of all, this thread doesn't need to connect with Hi3 to get tier 0 as it's self sufficient but that doesn't mean GGZ and HI3 are not connected. If you looked at all of my scans for proving that, it's clear developers really consider GGZ and HI3 as parallel worlds inside Honkai Universe. Not to mention the re occuring concepts between two worlds like imaginary space, herrschers, Honkai, stigma, characters and so on.....Imaginary Tree is a theoretical model of the Universe with many worlds. It's not literally a tree. Otto theorized it as a tree in Hi3, Zandar theorized it as a tree in HSR. Although their models are similar, there're still small differences since they aren't the same person and Imaginary Tree is a theoretical model not an universal truth. So, saying GGZ doesn't have imaginary tree is like saying Universe doesn't exist in GGZ which is completely ridiculous. Moreover, GGZ has already showed similar Universe Model to Imaginary Tree although it was never dubbed as Imaginary Tree.
Mihoyo CEO said GGZ and HI3 are parallel worlds branching from the same storyline. Co-CEO of Mihoyo also showed GGZ as part of Honkai Universe. Co-CEO Haoyu Cai also confirmed that they already have this Honkai Universe idea ever since 2014 which means they have planned this all along to be parallel worlds. Moreover, In Hi3 comics, it's confirmed again as GGZ & Hi3 are parallel worldlines. GDC confirmation is not even outdated, it was like at 2021. Da Wei korean interview is from 2017. Da Wei even said "They want to create their own Marvel Universe". Even the parallel worlds model is the same idea as Hi3. In other world storyline in GGZ, it's stated as such here which align with Imaginary Tree model given by Nagamitsu

“You mean… this world is a hypothetical world created by the Honkai?”
Faced with Kiana’s question, Kevin shook his head.
“In areas where the source of Honkai is strong, the original laws of nature will be disrupted and even time and space will be distorted. But this world is not a fake created by the Honkai, but a world that actually exists in the Universe.”
“What do you mean!?”
“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
Kevin turned his head and looked at Kiana: “And this is but one of many worldlines that diverge with Kevin Kaslana’s decisions at the centre.
Everything you see is just a bubble in the tiny Universe.”

Also Hoyoverse and Honkai Universe are not the same. Hoyoverse is the company name for Global distribution and that's why GGZ is not part of it since EN server are already shut down. Hoyoverse is for business purpose while Honkai Universe is for lore setting which is meta-universe or their own marvel universe.

Argument - Yog Sothoth isn't tier 0 because she is not stated as the strongest in Babylon and influenced by Faith system
For Yog Sothoth tier 0, In Divine Comedy's kizuna, it's clearly stated she was influenced by Faith power system only after she came to Babylon. And that means those who lives outside of Babylon are not under Faith system. Yog Sothoth should live in School Building K where Cthullu students live but that building was used by Azathoth alone. Yog Sothoth True Self lives in the world behind the door where time and space is not moving. Only her avatar is in contact with Nyarthalotep. It's pretty clear whatever going on in Babylon has nothing to do with her.

Also Babylon is still composed with two fundamental forces, Yin and Yang. Yog Sothoth is nameless Tao itself plus her virtue of transcending definitions and boundries, she transcends everything that is composed of Yin and Yang. Metaphorical door that lead to her realm is stated as origin of all thing. Also those who disagree claimed that Yog Sothoth power can change which is not even confirmed or happened. Outer Gods are not like normal Godheads. They are incompatible with Babylon Academy's spritiual existence (possibly faith). As they are a different type of gods that are much powerful than normal godheads, it's not right to claim Yog Sothoth power can change. Moreover, there's no mention of Outer Gods power being reduced by faith at all while most Godheads in stories always revolve around this idea.

The sightless girl wakes up and does no more than stroll through Babylon unhurriedly, by virtue of her incomprehensible powers. Yet the chaos and spiritual taint she brings is as if to remind the world that everything they once knew is but the tip of the iceberg of the real world.
- Azathoth

As the Goddess of Wisdom, she instinctively felt uneasy, so even if she felt extremely disgusted by the idea of even touching that knowledge, she still opened the darkest page in her Library:
【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】
Not enough, still not enough, how can only such a little information convince everyone?
In that moment of Metis' trouble, Choas brought over Universal Nature,
"I have a feeling that if this being is allowed to walk Babylon, the balance of Yin and Yang will be crushed."
Chaos' judgment once again confirmed Metis' fears, while Universal Nature came for the same reason as Metis:
- The Mother's Kizuna

Argument - Chronos is the oldest god thus Yog Sothoth is predated by Chronos and doesn't qualify for Tier 0

Chronos is only stated as the oldest god, not the oldest existence. Meanwhile Yog Sothoth is Tao and by her virtue, she predates eveything in existence.

• Door that lead to Tao is stated as "origin of all thing" Mind that the door is also a metaphor since it doesn't exist.
• Tao is the essence of all being and outcome
• Yin and Yang are two fundamental forces that govern everything in cosmo
• Babylon also has yin and yang

Yog Sothoth being the Tao predates everything in existence. Chronos's story has no relation to Yog Sothoth or Babylon at all. Chronos is currently at mortal world living among mortals.

Conclusion : It's already crystal clear for Yog Sothoth to get Tier 0 and current arguments are nothing more than baseless assumptions with no connection at all. Moreover, there's no staff disagree yet. I will carry over the tally from previous thread but if you changed your mind after seeing everything in new light again, you can change your stance.

Agree : @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral : @Ultima_Reality

Disagree :

 

[Antvasima]

Can the main people who argued against this upgrade each write coherent single posts that explain why they disagree please?

After that we can probably summon more staff members here again.

 

[Weaver261]

Bump! If no one comes after a few day, we can proceed with evaluation right? How many staff votes are necessary to publish the profile?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Bump! If no one comes after a few day, we can proceed with evaluation right? How many staff votes are necessary to publish the profile?

I suggest at least 4, not to mention Ant disagreed. @Antvasima may you clarify if you still stand at your original stance?

 

[Antvasima]

I suggest at least 4, not to mention Ant disagreed. @Antvasima may you clarify if you still stand at your original stance?

I just want us to be absolutely certain that this is an accurate rating before we apply it to a lovecraftian lolicon character. Otherwise we risk to severely publicly embarrass ourselves, and there seemed to be several contradictions to the claim, so I disagree for the time being, yes.

 

[Weaver261]

Bump!

 

[Weaver261]

Bump! Seems like those who will argue this won't be coming-.-

 

[Antvasima]

Who were the members who argued against this revision previously?

 

[Weaver261]

Who were the members who argued against this revision previously?

@Max20091 @Delta333

 

[Antvasima]

Who were the members who argued against this revision previously?

@Max20091 @Delta333

@Max20091 @Delta333

Your elaborate evaluations are needed here.

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

My opinion may not be relevant here but I more leaning towards High 1-A or High 1-A+ than 0 due to the same reason as Antvasima here

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

@Delta333[/USER]

He is busy with work that will keep him occupied for approximately 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can we wait, or are we in a great hurry? Again, I would much prefer if we are extra careful in this case.

 

[Weaver261]

Okay. Can we wait, or are we in a great hurry? Again, I would much prefer if we are extra careful in this case.

I suggest to move on with staff evaluation first cuz I have already listed their arguments in the OP. It also seems like they have no more arguments than the one I listed here. Their arguments are mostly assumptions, for example .....
Assuming Chronos predates Yog Sothoth without proving any relationship or comparison between the two. They are debunking tier 0 solely basing on a word "oldest god" while there're multiple scans proving Yog Sothoth is the origin of all things.
I've already listed the arguments they made so staffs can look through them and evaluate. I will give related scans they used in these arguments if the staffs need to review.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask some staff members to help out here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I just want us to be absolutely certain that this is an accurate rating before we apply it to a lovecraftian lolicon character. Otherwise we risk to severely publicly embarrass ourselves, and there seemed to be several contradictions to the claim, so I disagree for the time being, yes.

"lolicon character"... dawg. _.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I remember correctly, she has that kind of design.

 

[Phoenks]

Very... Interesting?

I went through a couple of the scans, out of curiosity, mostly.

The part about her being nameless tao / source of tao doesn't have a translation. I'm not sure if it is the same as the other one, though.

But, in general, you shouldn't use any scans that aren't translated on the profile or here. We can't read Japanese so they basically say nothing.

Aside from that, if everything I see here is true without contradiction, it does seem like a blatant case of Tier 0.

Most important part here is that she transcends description and definition.

And the verse goes on a rant about how descriptions are like the ultimate distinction from which all things are born. They make up all things. Presumably including the Tao which is stated to be the essence of all being and outcome. And Yin/Yang which are the governing laws of everything.

That's sorta just the exact language that gets you to Tier 0 in this system as far as I know.

Less is more when it comes to Tier 0, so even these simplistic statements with enough context can get there if there's no contradictions.

I don't know much about Hoyoverse, canonicity of the different parts to each other, or any of that deeper knowledge - so I don't really know if there would be any anti feats to this. Or if the parts are canon to each other...

But from what I see here this just seems obvious.

 

[Weaver261]

The part about her being nameless tao / source of tao doesn't have a translation. I'm not sure if it is the same as the other one, though.

I think I linked the wrong imgur link. Here is the translation

Spoiler: Tao entry

Several hundred years later, Hangu Pass.

In front of the white-haired old man, the guard of the pass was looking at him with reverence:

"Have you really seen the legendary 'Tao'?"

"Yes."

The old man's gentle voice, like a gentle drizzle in the pond, calmed the guard's anxiety.

"The Tao is there, behind the door and inside the door. The 'door' does not exist, but it can be seen. This is the source of its mystery..."

Dreamy bubbles rose over Hangu Pass, the figure of the old man slowly rose into the air along with the bubbles, and the glass world behind him dazzled the guard. And his voice continued to ring:

"The Tao can be spoken of, but it is not the constant Tao. It originates from bubbles and is born towards bubbles.

The name can be named, but it is not the constant name. It takes shape when it comes out of bubbles and becomes true when it enters bubbles.

The door is the beginning and end of all things, the root of mystery, where bubbles break and their shadows disappear, where life and death are interdependent..."

Right after the old man disappeared, the commander compiled the quotes he left behind into a book, but he deleted the descriptions of the "bubble."

However, some people still caught clues about the "bubble." To find the "bubble," people regarded the Dandao, similar in appearance to it, as the path to the "bubble."

It is said that when alchemists imbibe the true azoth, they can reach the mysterious door and obtain the supreme wisdom bestowed by the "bubble".

 

[Phoenks]

Bruh.

You know I really wanted to be the one to disagree with this, because I actually dislike Hoyoverse... but this is just very blatant. They keep going into these metaphysical rants that make it very hard to argue against an upgrade.

If that alongside the Description nonsense are both in the GGZ verse, then cross-scaling probably doesn't even matter. Just the GGZ scans are enough for Tier 0.

Of course, I still have no ideas about potential anti-feat, but... Yeah.

Other than that, not really anything to argue about tbh.

 

[Weaver261]

Of course, I still have no ideas about potential anti-feat, but... Yeah.

Other than that, not really anything to argue about tbh.

Then, I will take your vote as agree okay?
Hmm...what do you think about above mentioned arguments against tier 0 in the OP?

 

[Phoenks]

Then, I will take your vote as agree okay?
Hmm...what do you think about above mentioned arguments against tier 0 in the OP?

You can't take my vote, since I'm not a VSBW staff. Only FCOC.

I just commented my opinion to bump the thread and for fun, I guess.

As for arguments, they're fine. I think you countered them pretty sufficiently. The arguments weren't really strong ones in the first place.

Side note, I think it's pretty cringe for Antvasima to disagree with the thread and halt it just because he doesn't like the character design.

Especially when evidence is this blatant, with even the creator of the tiering system being surprised by how clear cut it was on the original thread, lol.

Anyway, that's all from me. Hope you get more staffs to review it.

 

[Antvasima]

Side note, I think it's pretty cringe for Antvasima to disagree with the thread and halt it just because he doesn't like the character design.

That is not a fair summary at all. I just want us to be extra careful because it seems to be such a strange verse to give a tier 0 rating, but thank you for your help with evaluating it. I am more neutral than previously now.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Again, my opinion may not be relevant but I find it more towards High 1-A+
Since here:

Intelligence: Omniscient (Yog Sothoth has infinite wisdom as she is wisdom itself)

If this also applies to the True form key then it contradicts the “Transcend the description or definition that make up everything” (unless you made an error in editing) if not then I will be neutral on this, but if it is, then here is my reasoning:

Being wisdom itself still ties the entity to a conceptual framework (wisdom).

Boundless characters exist beyond all concepts, attributes, or qualities, including abstractions like "wisdom," "knowledge," or even "existence."

Claiming to be wisdom itself means the character defines or encompasses the concept, but Boundless would mean the character exists beyond even the concept of "being" anything.

Yog-Sothoth is described as having "infinite wisdom," meaning “she” is still tied to a quality. Even if this wisdom transcends definitions, the fact that it is named and described as a concept ties the entity to abstraction.

Gods who live outside the time and space of the universe possess infinite wisdom, which also creates infinite loneliness.Here, you can get everything you want, but while getting it... you may also lose meaning.

In this case, the description still ties Yog-Sothoth to concepts like wisdom, loneliness, and meaning, which disqualify it from Boundless but more towards a High 1-A+ scaling.

Again this is just my opinion it might contains some wrong that I don’t realizes. Then again this is just my opinion( as my opinion doesn’t seem to be relevant for the voting), as I have nothing against Honkai whatsoever, as I and Antvasima agree that we don’t want to embarrass ourselves when they see a loli Yog-Sothoth getting a Tier 0 from out of nowhere.

 

[Weaver261]

Being wisdom itself still ties the entity to a conceptual framework (wisdom).

Boundless characters exist beyond all concepts, attributes, or qualities, including abstractions like "wisdom," "knowledge," or even "existence."

In Yog Sothoth case, wisdom = omniscience. Wisdom not as a concept but rather all knowing existence. Wisdom is just an extension from her. It's the same as bubbles as they are showed together.
This infinite loneliness and losing meaning are referring to those who attained wisdom from her. In entry 4, a king got wisdom from her yet everything was meaningless to him. It's about how knowing too much can cause meaningless to those who can't contain. This kind of scenarios are repeatedly explored in Honkai verse. Like how Otto gained knowledge from Will of Honkai yet unable to comprehend. Like how Patavia peeped into Nous's mind yet all she could do was writing down a formula she can't solve. As far as I know, Yog Sothoth never expressed that kind of traits.

 

[Phoenks]

Being wisdom itself just seems to mean that she is omniscient and all-enconpassing. This isn't an anti feat, nor does it contradict her state as a Tier 0.

If anything, it just provides further evidence for the "Oneness" quality of Tier 0. (Unity and Primacy)

The whole premise of Tier 0 is that you are everything, but also the higher source of everything. It is a state of being one with all while also transcending all. This is part of why they are given omnipresence and omniscience by default.

And also why it's associated with things like being the "One-In-All," "All-In-One," and other similar descriptors.

The difference is that why High 1-A+ purely is those descriptions and possibilities, the Tier 0 is the preeminent source of them all.

Given the statements of Yog transcending descriptions and definitions, being beyond their boundaries and confines, which encompass every possibility and distinction, she clearly seems to fit more into the Tier 0 category.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Either way, it would not be an anti-feat if she has tier 0 feats. For example, the Form of the Good is said to be goodness itself, but it lacks essence and also transcends essence.

This has no translate

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Although I still have some many questions in mind but for now I will stand neutral for the time being

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

May I question where you got the staff votes from?

If it's from the last thread As I think it is, You can't just carry over votes that agree/neutral, you also need to carry over disagreeing votes, or just reset the vote tally...

 

[Weaver261]

May I question where you got the staff votes from?

If it's from the last thread As I think it is, You can't just carry over votes that agree/neutral, you also need to carry over disagreeing votes, or just reset the vote tally...

There're no staff disagree except for Antvasima cuz I forgot to count that. But now Antvasima is also neutral. As for where I got the votes, you can check the previous thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux

We still need your help here.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

I disagree with the with post. Yog doesn’t really have anything to do with Aeons or the main universe. Furthermore, in the latest patch of HSR (Honkai: Star Rail), there is mention of the "infinite universe," and older statements from higher-level Aeons like IX state that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is their domain. This implies that Aeons can grow even more powerful in the future. Even among the gods in Babylon from the Origin universe, only a few have been mentioned to exist at the multiverse level in MiHoYo's works.

It’s fairly reasonable for the post to pass if we’re only considering the GGZ (Guns Girl Z) universe, as it doesn’t have any direct connections to HSR apart from some similar elements.

My thoughts on Yog-Sothoth:

She is not the supreme deity like her original counterpart (the "All in One and One in All"). Her avatars are not invincible, which is why they can be affected by the Faith system of Babylon. There’s very little information about her true form. All we know is that she exists outside the universe and governs and creates billions of universes (represented by the bubbles surrounding her). It’s not surprising she has earned the title "Origin of All Things," as she creates the concepts of the universes she governs to explore interesting possibilities born from her loneliness.

Is Yog the strongest in GGZ? If we only consider her story, it’s hard to say due to the lack of information. But when comparing her scale to Thanatos, she is likely more powerful than most of the gods in Babylon. However, there has been mention of an entity that governs everything in the multiverse, though we don’t yet know who that is. Given that Yog governs countless universes (though not all of them), it makes me think she might be the strongest in GGZ currently. However, I’m not sure how she compares to other multiverse-level entities in MiHoYo’s works—that’s a matter for the future.


If this isn’t enough, there may be no anti-feats left to counter the post because these are all the anti-feats we currently have.



This is her history and this

 

[Frans_Kadmon]

First, I'm not a staff member so I cannot vote. Second, I'm not sure if regular members can post here. Third, I have no knowledge about this verse. I just have some questions about your argument here don't sure it's still valid or not?

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
"This World behind the door, where time and space have come to a standstill, has only wisdom remaining."
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Based on my understanding of the context, it talks about space-time that has come to a standstill behind the door that leads to "wisdom" (智慧). The story mentions "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble." Since the bubble is just Yog-Sothoth's metaphorical device, this means Yog-Sothoth is the bubble or the aforementioned "wisdom."

Then you've brought up the notion of Wuji (無極, lit. 'without roof/ridgepole', meaning 'without limit') which is the Tao in stillness, while Taiji (太極, trans. "supreme ultimate") is the Tao in movement, leading to the conclusion that Yog-Sothoth doesn't exist in a place where space-time has standstill but rather in a place where there is no movement at all.

From all this, it seems somewhat rushed to conclusions. I think examining "standstill" more deeply (such as from the Chinese text in the statement) or directly looking at this specific context would be more useful than discussing "Wuji" or "Taiji" which aren't mentioned at all (or maybe they are mentioned but I didn't notice/and I tend to see the text as describing just a localized phenomenon behind the door). Although there are some references to Tao Te Ching, personally I find these references rather vague (it would be more beneficial if there were other statements from those directly involved with this verse about Tao Te Ching - at least having evidence that these involved persons have mentioned Tao Te Ching in WoG would make some more solid statement). In other words, increasing the tendency toward Tao Te Ching interpretation more than this.

And one more thing, can I have a scan of this?

In Yog Sothoth case, wisdom = omniscience. Wisdom not as a concept but rather all knowing existence. Wisdom is just an extension from her. It's the same as bubbles as they are showed together.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I disagree with the with post. Yog doesn’t really have anything to do with Aeons or the main universe. Furthermore, in the latest patch of HSR (Honkai: Star Rail), there is mention of the "infinite universe," and older statements from higher-level Aeons like IX state that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is their domain. This implies that Aeons can grow even more powerful in the future. Even among the gods in Babylon from the Origin universe, only a few have been mentioned to exist at the multiverse level in MiHoYo's works.

It’s fairly reasonable for the post to pass if we’re only considering the GGZ (Guns Girl Z) universe, as it doesn’t have any direct connections to HSR apart from some similar elements.

My thoughts on Yog-Sothoth:

She is not the supreme deity like her original counterpart (the "All in One and One in All"). Her avatars are not invincible, which is why they can be affected by the Faith system of Babylon. There’s very little information about her true form. All we know is that she exists outside the universe and governs and creates billions of universes (represented by the bubbles surrounding her). It’s not surprising she has earned the title "Origin of All Things," as she creates the concepts of the universes she governs to explore interesting possibilities born from her loneliness.

Is Yog the strongest in GGZ? If we only consider her story, it’s hard to say due to the lack of information. But when comparing her scale to Thanatos, she is likely more powerful than most of the gods in Babylon. However, there has been mention of an entity that governs everything in the multiverse, though we don’t yet know who that is. Given that Yog governs countless universes (though not all of them), it makes me think she might be the strongest in GGZ currently. However, I’m not sure how she compares to other multiverse-level entities in MiHoYo’s works—that’s a matter for the future.


If this isn’t enough, there may be no anti-feats left to counter the post because these are all the anti-feats we currently have.



This is her history and this

No, GGZ is connected to the HoYoverse canon and is currently accepted as canonicity (multiple GGZ information are included on the Honkai Energy page). The Aeons have ultimate domination over their own Paths, Domains and even all of creation isn't equivalent to Yog being somewhat not-so-powerful than them; anyone can be stronger than Aeons, a simple omnipotent being would render an Aeon to be absolute nothingness; they are not tier 0. Likewise, what you're arguing would just be NLF.

 

[Weaver261]

My thoughts on Yog-Sothoth:

She is not the supreme deity like her original counterpart (the "All in One and One in All"). Her avatars are not invincible, which is why they can be affected by the Faith system of Babylon. There’s very little information about her true form. All we know is that she exists outside the universe and governs and creates billions of universes (represented by the bubbles surrounding her). It’s not surprising she has earned the title "Origin of All Things," as she creates the concepts of the universes she governs to explore interesting possibilities born from her loneliness.

Is Yog the strongest in GGZ? If we only consider her story, it’s hard to say due to the lack of information. But when comparing her scale to Thanatos, she is likely more powerful than most of the gods in Babylon. However, there has been mention of an entity that governs everything in the multiverse, though we don’t yet know who that is. Given that Yog governs countless universes (though not all of them), it makes me think she might be the strongest in GGZ currently. However, I’m not sure how she compares to other multiverse-level entities in MiHoYo’s works—that’s a matter for the future.

Yog Sothoth in GGZ is not like Yog Sothoth in Cthullu Mytho but that doesn't mean she can't be tier 0. There's nothing that state her avatars being harmed or influenced by something. You have to prove why her avatars are affected by faith system. Even if her avatars are affected by faith system, that won't still debunk tier 0. I have already gave reasons why it's not possible to get influenced by Faith system. Btw you should also give scan of why bubbles are universes. There's no such statement as far as I know.
You should give scans of whatever you are talking here. I have already said in my OP that you shouldn't make claims without proving any scans. You should give what kind of entity governs everything in multiverse. There's no such statement of Yog Sothoth governing countless universes. That's your assumption based on bubbles. Yog Sothoth transcends description and definition which make up everything. That's why she is Tier 0.
Please provid scans when you want to disagree and read the OP and previous thread in advance. We don't want this to be 11 pages long again.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

And one more thing, can I have a scan of this?

Entry 4 of Yog-Sothoth Kizuna: What Happened to the Speaker​

"New millennium, at a speech about Gods.

"... I believe that all Gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about the person themselves. In the end, apart from in Human Consciousness, God cannot exist."

After making this assertion, the speaker strode down the steps with his head held high, follow by an unceasing applause.

Getting into his car, he drove away from the venue, the Speaker closed his eyes and held his breath in the back seat of the car, enjoying a moment of peace after his success.

Soon however—the driver's voice broke the silence.

"Sir... I heard the speech you just gave, it was impressive..."

"Oh?" The speaker smiled to himself, "Do you also care about such metaphysical things?"

"It's not that I don't care... But that I think that Gods actually exist too."

The Speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe don't like the existence of Gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of God that a leap in cognition can occur."

"That? But... what if the God I believe in is Wisdom itself?"

A cold sweat suddenly flooded the Speaker's back.

Not only because of the driver's languid tone, but also because of the dreamy glow that suddenly flooded the window, as if the car had broken into some door and entered the interior of a giant bubble.

Then, from the driver's mouth, came truths that the Speaker could not believe—the origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers... And, the Eternal Bubble.

A few days later, people began to search for the missing preacher and found his vehicle in the mountains, but they did not find him within.

Somehow the car was badly damaged, as if it had fallen from a high cliff, but it was perfectly placed at the top of the mountain."



Side note, but this also implies that Yog-Sothoth is also the "origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers, and the Eternal Bubble"

 

[Weaver261]

Based on my understanding of the context, it talks about space-time that has come to a standstill behind the door that leads to "wisdom" (智慧). The story mentions "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble." Since the bubble is just Yog-Sothoth's metaphorical device, this means Yog-Sothoth is the bubble or the aforementioned "wisdom."

Then you've brought up the notion of Wuji (無極, lit. 'without roof/ridgepole', meaning 'without limit') which is the Tao in stillness, while Taiji (太極, trans. "supreme ultimate") is the Tao in movement, leading to the conclusion that Yog-Sothoth doesn't exist in a place where space-time has standstill but rather in a place where there is no movement at all.

From all this, it seems somewhat rushed to conclusions. I think examining "standstill" more deeply (such as from the Chinese text in the statement) or directly looking at this specific context would be more useful than discussing "Wuji" or "Taiji" which aren't mentioned at all (or maybe they are mentioned but I didn't notice/and I tend to see the text as describing just a localized phenomenon behind the door). Although there are some references to Tao Te Ching, personally I find these references rather vague (it would be more beneficial if there were other statements from those directly involved with this verse about Tao Te Ching - at least having evidence that these involved persons have mentioned Tao Te Ching in WoG would make some more solid statement). In other words, increasing the tendency toward Tao Te Ching interpretation more than this.

Yog sothoth existing Wuji is just my theory based on Tao as entry 2 is directly referencing to Tao Te Ching. Entry 2 original chinese text is 道德泡经 meaning "dao de pao jing". Pao, if i'm not mistaken, means bubble. It's just Tao Te Ching but with bubbles. In my previous thread OP, i also cited some Tao Te Ching verses that are almost word to word with entry 2.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
- Tao Te Ching

The Dao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Dao. It arises from bubbles and exists in bubbles.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name. It emerges from bubbles and becomes true within bubbles.
- Entry 2

See? That's just Tao Te ching with bubbles. But I can understand your concerns. Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. Taiji is Tao in movement which result in yin and yang. While Wuji is Tao in stillness. The world behind the door is where time and space are not moving. Everything in the cosmo is governed by Yin and Yang. These are the two forces that move the cosmo. Then, it's safe to assume the world behind the door where time and space not moving is Wuji where these two are not moving. Wuji also metaphysically preceed Taiji. It's also stated in her description and entry 5 like "beyond the space-time of universe", "outside of space-time". I hope this clear things up.

 

[Weaver261]

Side note, but this also implies that Yog-Sothoth is also the "origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers, and the Eternal Bubble"

If you can, you can just cite relavent part of what you want to say. If you want to paste long texts, try to use spoiler tag please. Also I don't know what you are to trying to say by bringing these up. Please if you don't have any substantial debunks, don't derail the thread.