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Necrozma VS Wisemon

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1.) Bypassing something =/= nullifying it as you are only ignoring it.

2.) That still doesn't answer my question. Does it need to come in contact with the tarrget to seal them? Is it done by a distance? How exactly is sealing them in the stones done? These are factors that need to be addressed, they can't just be ignored because of reasons.

3.) And thats a reason...because?

4.) Fair enough

5.) That is not what im saying at all literally, you missed my entire point. I never questione if it can be used as stronger opponents. Im asking how exactly is the death going to kill Necrozma. What type of death will happen? Exploding? Blasting targets to ashs? Etc. Saying it can kill much stronger opponents isnt NLF but saying it will kill them without explaining how it'll effect them most definitely is NLF.
 
1) So this can bypass Space-Time Manipulation. Good to know. Sorry, but no, that will not fly. This attack is not being stopped in the traditional sense. Simple as that. The attack is being countered with its own attack.

2) That's all the info given. I have nothing more to say.

3) I explained that in my post. Or are you going to call that NLF as well?

5) The opponent just drops dead. What more you want me to say. It's basic Death Manipulation. Nothing more, nothing less. Not NLF. NLF would be me saying Wisemon kills Palkia via Dark Song because it makes opponents drop dead. Ignoring the fact that Palkia is a 2-B 4-Dimensional being. But apparently all death hax is NLF. Let's make every hax NLF at this point.
 
If Smart Strike happens before Pandora Dialogue then I change my vote to Necrozma oneshoting with that.
 
"In all seriousness, Necrozma wins like, very handily. Smart Strike gets in a hit quickly a la quick attack and the AP to one shot helps."

It isn't really quick. It's a move akin to Aerial Ace actually.

"Necrozma doesn't lead with traditional Pokémon attacks to seal within space time and either just rushes the opponent like he did to the Cosmic Duo or more likely"

You realize that every movement is something that is preserved in space time correct?
 
I should note that Necrozma is not even fighting the real Wisemon either. Not to mention he can also escape through his book.
 
1.) Your acting like this space-time hax of Wisemons is uber-tier levels of it. But it won't matter, Ultra Necrozma makes Ultra Wormholes and sends those attacks right back at Wisemon. Or just away in general. Necrozma isn't getting hit.

2.) Then im going to question this as well. If no one can give an answer on how this move is coming in contact with Necrozma, then saying it will magically seal him away is wrong as well.

3.) Im asking because "being a digimon" isn't really an answer. I can say Necrozma survives because he's a pokemon and it'd be equally wrong.

5.) If its basic then you need to prove it can affect the target in question (which is Necrozma). All you've established is that it happens instantly. Not everyone dies by basic or conventional means. If your saying basic death can happen to everyone, that is NLF by a very big degree. I'll explain this more below so please read it.

It's like if someone used Insta-Death hax on someone who has a type of immortality but can still die. For example, take someone with T3 Immortality, who cannot die from anything lethal via regen, but can still die depending on how bad the regen level is and if its not enough to withstand certain attacks.

Pit that person against Insta-Death hax. Would the death cause lethal level injuries? Worse than it? Better than it? And if so, what kind of death? The death happening instantly is one thing. How it effects the opponent is a different story and why we are ignoring this and instantly assuming it kills X because we say so is ridiciulous, no offense. I'll create a CRT about this myself if I have to so no one else will get ill feelings from this.
 
I was thinking it was akin to Quick Attack, not Aerial Ace, my bad. And to those thinking it would bypass Pandora Dialogue (if it were like I thought), it wouldn't. It would just hit him before Pandora Dialogue is used.

That said, my vote doesn't change. Just because Pandora Dialogue does what it does doesn't stop the forward momentum of Necrozma just barelling into Wisemon. And Ultra Necrozma's passive stat boost gives it the speed boost to move quicker than Wisemon's hax.
 
"Your acting like this space-time hax of Wisemons is uber-tier levels of it. But it won't matter, Ultra Necrozma makes Ultra Wormholes and sends those attacks right back at Wisemon. Or just away in general. Necrozma isn't getting hit. "

Got a source of Necrozma doing that? Also, I am not. I am blatantly repeating what is stated on his file. Don't accuse me of shit when you don't know jackshit about what you are talking about. I have the direct source for all this. You just want to call everything NLF, like always. This is something you do all the time when it involves Pokemon. I am going directly by what said official profile tells me. I'm sorry for snapping, but that pisses me off.

"Then im going to question this as well. If no one can give an answer on how this move is coming in contact with Necrozma, then saying it will magically seal him away is wrong as well. "

Question it all you want. This is something that is written in the Databook that is written by dimensional researchers. These statements are feats. We have this mentioned in blogs and we have a discussion rule for it.

A Digimon completely shrouded in mystery, it can appear anywhere in time and space via the Book. Treating the Book as a spiritual vessel, it frequently alters its shape to appear anywhere within the spaces and times which the Book has connected, and it is said that its true form remains within a separate dimension. Among researchers it is rumored that it is in the same family as Piemon, and of the same Demon Man type. The Space-time Stones it holds in its hands are able to playback a record of a space, preserving every event or object of the Digital World within space and time. Its Special Moves are repeatedly preserving opponent's attacks within space and time and then performing a high-speed playback (Pandora Dialogue), and confining the opponent within the Space-time Stones for an eternity (Eternal Nirvana).
Nothing I am saying is a lie nor wrong.

"Im asking because "being a digimon" isn't really an answer. I can say Necrozma survives because he's a pokemon and it'd be equally wrong."

That wasn't my reasoning though....

"It's like if someone used Insta-Death hax on someone who has a type of immortality but can still die. For example, take someone with T3 Immortality, who cannot die from anything lethal via regen, but can still die depending on how bad the regen level is and if its not enough to withstand certain attacks. "

Gargoyle already made a thread regarding this. Look it up through the Death Manipulation based threads.

"Pit that person against Insta-Death hax. Would the death cause lethal level injuries? Worse than it? Better than it? And if so, what kind of death? The death happening instantly is one thing. How it effects the opponent is a different story and why we are ignoring this and instantly assuming it kills X because we say so is ridiciulous, no offense."

Let me ask you this. How would this effect organs when Digimon have no organs to begin with? It's simple Death Inducement.
 
Just because Pandora Dialogue does what it does doesn't stop the forward momentum of Necrozma just barelling into Wisemon"

But he sends the attack back at him and it counters his attack. An attack that is noted to be at high speed.

Repeatedly preserves the opponent's attacks within space and time, then plays them back at high speed.
"And Ultra Necrozma's passive stat boost gives it the speed boost to move quicker than Wisemon's hax."

Not fast enough that Wisemon cannot react, go into his book or just teleport out the way.
 
1.) Of Ultra Necrozma making Ultra Wormholes? Im not exactly sure what your asking here.

Also, I know your only saying this out of anger, so none of this is personal, but don't call me out on accusing stuff of NLF simply because I don't magically agree with it. If I see reasons to think something is wrong, and don't get answers, then im calling it out. In this case, NLF. Simple as that. And "when it involves pokemon"? You and I (and others) both know this isn't true at all. I don't scream NLF just because a pokemon is pitted against something they either lose to or can lose to. I call it out when I legitimately believe its wrong. I know Pokemons controversal here, but im getting really sick of these accusations over disagreement.

2.) Once again, I am not questioning if Necrozma can be captured by the stones. I know he can and never disagreed with it. What I am asking is how will he be captured. You keep missing what im asking. Your basically going from the beginning to the end and ignoring all the events in the middle that reaches said end.

3.) Then what was your reasoning saying that Dragon?

4.) I'll look through it but if it doesnt have a real result I will keep questioning it or make a separate thread.

5.) And why are you assuming im talking about Digimon being effected by the death hax? I literally didnt. I asked how Necrozma would be effected by it. You put Digimon in this comment for absolutely no reason whatsoever and I wasn't talking about them as the targets. Period.
 
@Kukui. Don't be a me. Drafon's just starting to like Pokémon again. Don't puss him off with the dumb rivalry that was settled when I stopped being an asshole.

@Dragon. Seriously, respond on my mindhax thread to tell me how Wisemon is fallible in or out of cannon.
 
@Cal

Im not 100% sure if I follow but if its the "don't question stuff" out thing or something similar, im sorry, but that doesn't work for me. It's essesntially saying to do that to avoid arguments and we end up giving a verse special treatment. Obviously, im not on some witch hunt to downplay and downgrade Digimon. In fact, I support the Digimon ratings. And I definitely don't mean any disrespect to Dragon, but im not going to sit here and say nothing just to give Digimon the benefit of the doubt. I never did it for Pokemon, or any other verse.

Digimon is no exception.
 
Sitting around and doing nothing is pretty much all I do. There are a quite handful of things that I still disagree with rather vehemently but I don't want to go back to those dark ages and care more about the friends I've made than some dumb ratings on a website.
 
"Of Ultra Necrozma making Ultra Wormholes? Im not exactly sure what your asking here."

When has Necrozma ever used Ultra Wormholes for combat purposes or to ignore his own attacks?

"but don't call me out on accusing stuff of NLF simply because I don't magically agree with it. If I see reasons to think something is wrong, and don't get answers, then im calling it NLF."

So just because YOU think a reason is wrong, it's NLF? That's abusing the term. Especially when you call things out for NLF when they would never be considered as such. Necrozma is nothing special. Being stronger doesn't make you attacks suddenly unable to be preserved and replayed through space and time. How is any of this NLF? I am not understanding where in the world you got NLF. That is not how NLF works. Especially when it deals with Space and Time. And me calling you out is going by any Pokemon thread you are involved in I'm sorry. Just as Gargoyle addressed it, I have as well. But this is an Ad Hominem as such I will stop here. And I apologize.

"What I am asking is how will he captured. You keep missing what im asking. Your basically going from the beginning to the end and ignoring all the events in-between that reaches said end. "

But I am not? I even mentioned that in my reply. We do not know the process behind the sealing. We just know that sealing is something that he can and will perform as people have directly seen him do so in combat.

"Then what was your reasoning saying that Dragon?"

So I guess me mentioning Wisemon's abilities and the moves he starts with don't count? Wisemon uses Pandora Dialogue. He's not just gonna stand there and get hit. We are talking about by far one of the most intelligent Digimon in the franchise to date. He's not the type of fool to sit there and get hit.

"And why are you assuming im talking about Digimon being effected by the death hax? I literally didnt. I asked how Necrozma would be effected by it. You put Digimon in this comment for absolutely no reason whatsoever and I wasn't talking them. Period. "

Not at all. I mentioned Digimon because you mentioned organs. We by average treat instant death as in instantly destroying your entire life force. If Digimon do not have organs, how pray tell would the Death hax be organ based when on a Digimon, there would be no organs to effect?
 
>Sit around and do nothing.

So your a couch potatoe? ovo

In all seriousness, I at least understand that reasoning 1000000% and, normally, i'd agree with you in a heartbeat. When I say I care more about friendships and relationships with people here on site than about winning an argument, I absolutely mean it. And Dragon most likely does too im sure of it.

But this is different.

Again, I am NOT a fan of questioning stuff to piss people off, and I absolutely don't like getting in arguments with people I care about more than others, but sitting around, magically going along with stuff without being able to express the concerns I have for something is not what I want to do. Not here or anywhere. Not now, not ever. I do this for Pokemon, Naruto, Bleach, or any other verse I love. I promise you wholefully this isn't just a Digimon thing. Its a verse thing.
 
If you disagree that much with anything you should feel comfortable speaking up about it. I'm still leaning on the side of Wisemon since his likely higher intelligence compared to the more brutish Necrozma means he's going to be fighting better from the start, and his win conditions are more likely to happen since he's apparently actually sitting in another dimension while a clone fights Necrozma for him. Necrozma has the tools to win here, namely the stat differences and passive buffs, but he's not smart enough to use them well enough. The justification for his intelligence being unknown is that he's a psychic type and thus should have naturally higher intelligence, but he's also stated to be a brute and fight wildly.

...huh, wonder if that means Mewtwo would beat Wisemon. I haven't kept up with Pokemon stats very well since coming here but I remember Mewtwo having fairly potent mind and time abilities, so I imagine he could.
 
I mean, technically, Mewtwo could win via the same logic of Wisemon winning here: overwhelming hax with a pragmatic mind outweighting brute force. But I'm not even kidding when I say that Wisemon stomps that match.
 
Yeah I figured Mewtwo would have a better chance. Somehow he's always managed to remain one of the strongest Pokemon and his particular powers and willingness to use them in a combat setting does good things for him in a vs debating context. Of course when I say one of the strongest I'm excluding Pokemon like Palka, Dialga, Arceus, and Giratina.
 
To summarize my vote once again.

Anything Necrozma will do will be preserved in space-time. Whether it be a Smart Strike or Light that Burns the Sky.

Wisemon has the perfect means of getting out of dodge. He's a tactile range fighter. He will avoid close range combat. This means escaping into the book and returning to the beginning of the fight or just teleporting.

Let's assume Eternal Nirvana is the slowest ass energy blast in fiction, like one inch per every 5 billion years. Wisemon can teleport on top of him and launch it close. Or he can sneak behind him with invisibility.

Chrono Breaker means dead Necrozma if it's used regardless.

Dark Song would kill Necrozma. But I actually went and research gameplay for this and it is a chance of instant death or it stuns the opponent.

Necrozma has no set character yet, so if he goes lolPhotonGeyser, that'll only be redirected and countered. Even with the passive boost, Necrozma would not become so fast that Wisemon could not react nor teleport out of the way.

This does not include Duplication either that he gets from Kuramon.

For me, Wisemon takes this handedly.
 
I have consistently gone out of my way in order to make sure Digimon doesn't get treated any different from other verse. That's why me and Ex make sure there are blogs for EVERYTHING. Everything we have done in a revision has been explained in a blog at least once.

Databooks? Check.

Multipliers? Check.

Digimon Mindset? Check

Digimon Consistency? Check. (Cal you still need to do this)

Digimon Canonicity? Check.

Everything Lucemon has? Check.

Mind and Soul Haxes? Check.

Stats? Check.

Lore? Check.

Lore? Check.

More Lore? Check.

Even More Lore? Check.

Nature of Data? Check.

Cosmology? Check.

In depth explanation of the Digital World and it's size? Check.

More Lore? Check.

There is a reason why people say that Digimon has some of the most solid justifications on site. We blog everything. Ex literally wants to make a blog for BLOGS.

Reason for the Multiplier thread? To make sure Digimon multipliers would be fine to use.

Reason for me checking if Digimon Lightspeed feats were fine? To keep Digimon from getting away with something Pokemon could not.

Reason for me downgrading 6-B Digimon in the first place? So that Digimon didn't get away with something that Dragon Ball blatantly did.

Reason for downgrading Timemon. So that Appmon wouldn't get away with something like Immeasurable speed Tier 6's.

Reason for Downgrading Ultimate and God Appmon. So that Appmon wouldn't get away with having upgrades based on something vague like "can create meteors by controlling planets"

I can list more. But I can assure you Digimon has gone through a process of making sure it does not get away with anything other verses do not. I have made sure of that.

>Looks at Starmon X

Give me a sec....
 
>Digimon has blogs for anything and everything

"Digimon has the best explaining on the site!"

>Kirby has everything in his profile

"Kirby's profile is a mess and it's too long."
 
I'm sorry Cal, but do you put your information in a super detailed blog that's practically an essay....multiple times and counting?
 
I assumed his Ultra Wormholes were a possible method of reaching whatever dimension Wisemon is hiding in. For the sake of fairness we can assume Necrozma can find Wisemon fairly easily once he realises the real one is somewhere else, which should at most be the defeat of the first and possibly faster should anyone have decent intelligence feats for him.

If there's no way whatsoever then it should be specified that Wisemon confronts Necro directly.
 
Wisemon for reasons in a state of greater height compared to this post
 
I purposely stayed away from this so that I could continue with a calmer and better mindset. Just a heads up.

Im voting Necro for mine and Cals reasons and i'll address more arguments later.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
We blog everything. Ex literally wants to make a blog for BLOGS.
Click to expand...
Remember when I said this as a joke about the sheer number of blogs? Lol
 
"Go to the main body"

I guess Necro can locate people inside pocket dimensions?
 
I summarized myself once, but I will do so again to make my point clear.

Nothing regarding Pandora Dialogue even so much as reaches NLF. Why? Because, for one it has nothing to do with AP. It's manipulating space-time, and unless you are not bound by space-time, it works. If anything, one can argue that the whole "anything that would negate Moongeist beam and Sunsteel Strike is bypassed" as NLF. But even if I don't go their, nothing is Negating it, said attack is being countered with itself. As even a tackle will be preserved in space-time. Unless Necrozma is now beyond space-time....which he is not. And this is assuming he starts with those two attacks outside his entire movepool.

Eternal Nirvana, despite not knowing the method is still a perfectly viable option. Even giving it the most useless form of activation, it is still something Wisemon can safely pull off.

Chrono Breaker utterly destroys Necrozma.

Dark Song is basic Death Inducement. You die or get stunned. There is no more needed. Just like Zeref's Death Inducement, just like any other that does the same thing, you hear it, you are highly likely to drop dead. There are no organs for Digimon and as such it being organ based is by no means possible. It's not NLF to say "I sing, you drop dead" as this is something many characters can do without further explanation and it not be NLF. Wisemon is no different. Treating it differently would fact giving Digimon special treatment no?

Necrozma's stat buffs are counter by escaping into his book and going through space-time and teleportation. Not to mention Wisemon's M-Bodies are also a thing Necrozma has to deal with. Along with Invisibility, Illusions, Memory based skills, etc.

Finally, Wisemon is a tactile fighter is by no means is going to let the giant light dragon hit him. He has been documented as using Pandora Dialogue and Eternal Nirvana in character, as such he will utilize those. And then proceed with his other attacks.

Wisemon has the perfect means to counter Necrozma's attacks imo and as such I voted Wisemon here. That's not changing for me.

I feel like certain people are so against hax and are going for AP and ignoring the hax in general. Just because you have the AP to one shot does not mean that the opponent's hax does not matter and that the opponent's hax will not be sufficient as in Wisemon's case, it is. People look at the one shot and think that is all there is when that is by no means the case here. Wisemon is a character who can fight stronger opponents. Don't act like he's the only one. Kirby tied with Arkadimon, Homura and Grimmon can take out Tier 2's in their Tier 7 and 8 forms, Golden King, Gretchen, AoC, Mewtwo, Leviathan, Arceus, Ganon, all these characters can take out those stronger than them due to hax, Wisemon is nothing special or unique. We don't call those characters NLF and we should not do so for Wisemon here either.
 
Regarding the M-bodies, I suggested that either they're restricted or we just assume that Wisemon won't attack again while Necro is searching dimensions, or that Necro can find him quickly due to there not really being a lot of dimension to search in this case. Since the battleground wasn't stated in the OP that means it defaults to a specific location on Earth right? Knowing this, it seems standard to me to assume that either Wisemon has to start in that location as well, or at most he resides in the only other dimension connected to the area, for the sake of convenience regarding his general strategy of hiding and sending M-bodies. I'd find it less believeable that, along with the starting area there are multitudes of dimensions for Necrozma to search Wisemon for, rather than just the one he hides in.

Again, if it's unfair to expect Necrozma to fight Wisemon and win once, only to have to find the real one afterward to kill again, then I'm all for restricting them. Though I still think Wisemon in that situation can win thanks to powerful skills and higher intelligence, it would be much easier to argue for the side of Necro.
 
Alright back.

Just a heads up, there's stuff I still disagree with from before but im going to address it nicer and calmly this time.I know we all don't want another "you hate my verse!!!" "no I don't!!!!!!!!!" storm to happen as thats not the case here and I think we all know this now (plus Dragon personally apologized to me, I said sorry too, so we should be good then). Anyways:

-For Pandora, i'll actually personally apologize for saying this is NLF as, looking at it again (now with a calmer head ovo) this is really just re-directing attacks with space-time hax. Thats nothing bad. However, I still believe Necrozma will be able to avoid any redirected attacks with Ultra Wormholes to not get touched by them. For the question of Necrozma using them in combat from before, Im pretty sure that they could. Easily in fact. We don't treat abilities as non-combat applicable just because they weren't used in combat before and Necrozmas never had to fight with U.W.'s against anything other than maybe Solgaleo and Lunala, who he stomped. Plus, IIRC, Dawn/Dusk Necrozma was able to make like 5 of them just by roaring. So im sure Ultra Necrozma could do the same thing + more when facing an attack, but thats just me.

-For Eternal Nirvana, this is where i'll start again on my issues. Let me make this clear first though. I am not saying Necrozma will escape this attack if hit by it, like before. This move will very well work once hitting him. That is not the issue I have with it. The issue I have with this move is we aren't establishing just how Necro will actually get sealed in it. The effect? No issues. Just the causes. Does Wisemon need to get in contact with Necro to seal him in the space-time stones? Can he seal targets from over a distance? Does he teleport targets into the stones? Factors like these is what I meant here. If someone said something like Minato winning via sealing (when shinobi in Naruto definitely need to establish contact to seal like they do with Tailed Beasts) without going more in-depth about it like this, it would also be questionable about how they seal them.

-Chrono Breaker I never had any issues with, this ones pretty clear. Unless Necro BFR's himself to a different space-time using a U.W. before it's used or does something before then, there's really nothing Necro can do about this.

-For Death Inducement, Stunning people I can agree with. But I'll restate what I said before regarding "deaths" for some characters. Basic level death shouldnt be capable of permanently killing off characters who need far higher requirements to kill them.

Hypothetically, if someone who had mid-godly regen needed themselves and their reality to be erased to nothingness in order to actually die, are we (us in general, not me and you Dragon) really going to say basic level death is going to legitimately harm them? Since Zeref was the example used here, i'll address him. My memory of FT is very foggy but if im in the right ball park, Zeref's death magic is done via making a wave of death energy yes? Death energy that sucks the life force of targets and can do stuff like kill off forests? Something like this would easily effect those with too low regen, healing, or nothing at all. That is for certain. However, what about someone who can come back from even being reduced to nothing? The death magic isn't like it destroys existence so a mid-godly should be perfectly capable of thriving through it. Or if we take this a step up, the mid-godly can enter an area where existence is erased and they make it out to tell about it. I don't think basic death like life sucking or fatigue should do anything.

That said, if many other verses do get away with their death hax not explaining the levels, then that definitely makes it more a verse problem than a Digimon one completely. I'll likely make a thread about this for later concerns.

Everything else after this is fair game to argue about.
 
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