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Nasuverse: various revisions.

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Hi, this will probably be a very large thread, but bear with it.

First off, i wanted to address an issue with ORT's profile:

Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and is stated to be one of the strongest Types, and is even above Archetype: Earth)

But this is actually false. Not only ORT was confirmed to not be the strongest Type that arrived on Earth, but his status as a Type is even put into question:

Source: ???
Ultimate One of Mercury(?).
One of the pals of the Ultimate Ones appearing in Notes...but is more like one of those clumsy girls you see on anime in that it landed on Earth just one step earlier (around 5000 years) by accident. It's thought that he's closed himself off in his Crystal Valley until the promised time.
...Actually, might not really be the strongest life form that received Earth's SOS sign.
Can't be killed by Eyes of Instant Death. Doesn't have the concept of death so you'll have to destroy it physically. Character Material - ORT, p.070-071
Most importantly, it was never stated to be above Archetype Earth, and if anything this is straight up contradicted by Nasu placing Arc in his top 3 strongest characters:

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?

A:
Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.
Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants) Comptiq 2007-05 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A

So him being stronger than Archetype Earth should be removed. Especially considering that Red Arcueid alone was stated to be equal to Type Moon already:
Berserk Arcueid [Person's name • True Ancestor]
Arcueid after she has succumbed to her vampiric impulse and lost her ability to reason.
Though regarded as equivalent to the Crimson Moon, she is a completely different entity. You could say she's the materialized form of Arcueid's overflowing vampiric impulse. When Berserk Arcueid appears, Arcueid herself is freed from her desire to drink blood. …That's a complete and utter lie, of course.
Unlike Arcueid, she enjoys trampling on her enemies with overwhelming force. Because as a True Ancestor Arcueid does not (cannot) do useless things, she always regulates her fighting ability to match her opponent's. However, Berserk Arcueid will use her power mercilessly even against normal humans.
Incidentally, her over the top speech and behavior is really amusing.


The second (and likely the biggest) revision is about Archetype Earth herself, which goes back to the previous top 3 statement. As you can see, Nasu put her above Void Shiki as the strongest character in his works. This is also backed up by Archetype talking to Void through Ryougi in MB and being fully confident in defeating her despite knowing what she was This should mean that she has a vaster connection to Akasha than Void does. You may say an Ultimate One having that much access to Akasha is weird, but keep in my Void is literally just a human with an origin linking to it and still became that powerful. So yeah, to me the only thing I can see is Archetype having more access to Akasha than Void, since Void herself implies she doesn't have a complete connection since she doesn't even 100% understand her existence and said she can do "just about" anything, so I believe the only logical conclusion that isn't contradicted is that Archetype just has slightly more. This is also implied in MB, where Ryougi said her and Archetype are "the same kind of person", which while vague, is just some secondary evidence that she has something to do with Akasha, since I don't know any other similarity between the two.
So i propose to upgrade Archetype Earth to 1-A. We already saw that Red Arc alone is equal to Type Moon, so she is massively above the other Types. This last quote should also be mentioned in her profile at full power.

As for normal Arc, she should be upgraded since she can easily kill Demon Lords:

unknown.png


Demon lords are fallen True Ancestors who can utilize their full power, as they have succumbed to their bloodlust.
Yet even normal True Ancestors were stated to make DAAs look like "children" in comparison, and that attacking one would be equivalent to suicide:

8356126-7112323-2658175244-10.jp.jpg


So Arcueid should be upgraded far above normal DAAs, and by extension Servants. This would also scale to anyone who scales to 30% Arcueid like top tier DAA such as Nrvnqsr and Wallachia etc.
Regarding Nrvnqsr, when Arcueid said she would have difficulty killing him even at her full power, I believe this would be referring to his 999th Beast self. This is backed up since in Melty Blood, Nrvnqsr defeats Tatari Red Arcueid (without much issue either). While it all happened via gameplay, I feel it's safe to assume he entered his 999th Beast state and won, since this would directly fit in with Arcueid saying it would be difficult to beat him even at full power. This isn't too weird either since Arcueid did hype him as an elite among the elite even among Dead Apostles and was an absurd anomaly. She even said current Roa (not prime) would be nothing compared to him. So his 999th Beast self should be rated as above 50% Arcueid.


The third point is about Roa. This is only possible, but still worth pointing out. He can be argued to be stronger than Type Moon:


RD.png
RD2.png


Roa was already supposedly very OP as a human, so combined with Arcueid's power he was pretty much a god. And since he knows much about vampires due to his profession and obsession, he makes this claim knowing everyone on the DAA list, which would include Crimson Moon. Altrouge also was a suitable candidate to be Type-Moon's successor, but the problem wasn't her power, but her mental state.


Fourth is about Powered Ciel. In MB she was able to easily kill tatari Red Arcueid, who defeated 50% Arc in her story. So it should be mentioned in her profile.

8264639-tta.png


Fifth we have Touko. I think her profile is a bit lacking, she only has her sealed box demon and primordial runes. But she should also have her base capabilities, projection machine , Beowulf and the stolen magic crests she had in Mahou. So i only propose to expand a bit her profile.








Summary:

-ORT: Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and should be comparable to the other Types). Crystal Valley also ignores conventional durability

-Arcueid : Attack Potency: Island level (can easily kill Demon Lords, who are True Ancestors that can fully utilize their powers due to fully succumbing to their bloodlust, yet even while restricting their powers they are stated to make Dead Apostle Ancestors look like "children" in comparison, created a huge crater) | Small Building level (Superior to Ciel, can easily kill Nrvnqsr's weaker beasts before cutting him in half) | Island level (Stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime state) | Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (As a Spirit with the status of Planet, Arcueid is above most Divine Spirits. Even when weakened in the digital world and having her status reduced to god, Arcueid is still the only one in the Extra world capable of bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where it's possible to defeat her, no matter how small that chance might be. At full power, she is stated to be equal to the Crimson Moon) | Outerverse level (Regarded as above Void Shiki via Word of God as the strongest character in the Nasuverse and was confident in killing Void in Actress Again. Due to this, she must have more access to Akasha than Void)

-Nrvnqsr Chaos : Attack Potency: Wall level with weak beasts (The weakest beasts can shatter walls and cause small tremors). Island level with normal beasts (average Dead Apostle Ancestors are comparable to Servants, and Nrvnqsr is superior in terms of power to top tiers Dead Apostle Ancestors like Zepia). Small Country level with strongest beasts (His beasts include Phantasmal Beasts like unicorns and a low-ranking dragon, which may be comparable to Rider's Pegasus). Higher as the 999th Beast (The "strongest beast", made up of all his other beasts condensed into a single entity with the full extent of his power. Killed tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid. Arcueid herself described him as a supreme vampire that would have been difficult to defeat even with her full power).

- Wallachia : Attack Potency: Varies, up to Island level to Small Country level (While TATARI's powers are not based around destruction, it can manifest itself in a variety of forms of varying strength based on fears and rumors, such as Nrvnqsr Chaos, Kouma Kishima, and an Arcueid that has given into her bloodlust, though it lacks the power to manifest her at the full extent of her power. As a Dead Apostle Ancestor, its strongest manifestations should be capable of fighting on par with Servants. In the past, TATARI has even manifested as a Divine Beast the size of a mountain, likely making it superior to the likes of Rider's Pegasus) | Island level (Even without TATARI, Zepia is a powerful Dead Apostle Ancestor noted to have great potential by Sion and Aoko, and should be comparable to 30% Arcueid, as he was able to draw out that much power when possessing her body).

Type Moon : Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Equal to Red Arcueid and is above Divine Spirits as a result. His Moon Drop should be capable of destroying the World and forced Zelretch to use all of his power just to stop it)

Roa : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can defeat Ciel, should be comparable to other Dead Apostles, who should be superior to the likes of magi like Kirei). Can ignore conventional durability by cutting a person's lines of life to kill them. | Island level (Is the closest to his prime among all his other bodies, capable of fighting against Servants. Should be superior to 50% Arcueid. A weaker body fought against Edmond Dantès when he was alive. ) | Island level ( killed all True Ancestors), possibly Low Complex Multiverse level to Complex Multiverse level (Stated to be the strongest vampire at the time, which would include Type Moon. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, who would have been a suitable candidate for the Crimson Moon if not for her instability)

Ciel : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Stronger than the likes of Kirei Kotomine and Rin Tohsaka, can throw her Black Keys through reinforced concrete walls), Island level with Roa's magecraft (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons (The Seventh Holy Scripture can be used to completely destroy someone's soul, reducing them to nothingness, and can kill Servants in this manner). | Island level (Through self-hypnotism, she's able to make full use of Roa's abilities. Defeated tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons

Touko : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Is a top tier magus), higher with stolen magic crests (far stronger than before, easily deflected apprentice Aoko's strongest attack). At least Small Building level, possibly Island level with projection machine (Cut Souren Araya in half, although it was a fake body), Island level with her sealed box Demon (Her sealed box demon can defeat Souren Araya by his own admission), higher with preparation (Can use traps that shoot attacks a million times her usual power, enough to overwhelm Aoko) and with Beowulf (defeated a Dead Apostle Ancestor)

Agree: @Paul_Frank (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions), @John985 (with ORT revision, neutral on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions). @CrystalValley (with ORT and Roa revisions), @Violatas (With everything except Melty Blood scaling, neutral on Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @FallenMaou2234 (with ORT, Roa, Touko and Ciel revisions)

Disagree: @Overlord775 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Paul_Frank (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @John985 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Vietthai96 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void, unknown on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @XXKINGXX69 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Violatas (With Melty Blood scaling), @FallenMaou2234 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling)
 
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Juste one thing in his interview Nasu doesn't put arcueid above void. In the jap version, he just tell the three name, no ranking.
Oh, that's interesting. However Archetype was still confident in beating her in MB, so it might still be valid.
 
Using Nasu's word of god for evidence is too unreliable, as they are so inconsistent with the material to the point of meme worthiness

also for Archetype saying she could beat Void, couldn't that have simply been boasting ? Besides Void is a massive jobber
 
I'll have to disagree with scaling to Void, there's a lot of stuff wrong with the reasons you gave, but the biggest one is that nothing in the Melty Blood encounter implies Void was involved at all, it was just Shiki vs Arcueid. And Void would have no reason to really act there during the encounter, as Shiki herself says it's all a dream and doesn't matter, and Void isn't exactly out to keep Shiki safe or anything.

As for scaling everyone to Arc's statement about demon lords, idk if that's usable for scaling to 30% since she did that while at full power way in the past, it was why she was born and all, then basically all of them were gone by the time she bit Roa and lost any amount of power

Idk about the Nero Chaos stuff either, Arc being unable to destroy him wasn't in reference to the 999th beast, but to the Chaos as a whole, the full thing that he'd eventually become, which is shown as Maiko starts becoming just full Chaos, and no one but Shiki is able to stop her. So idk if it'd really scale to him, since that's explicitly not him, it's just Chaos and Nvnqsr would be gone. And I'd not use any game play stuff from Melty Blood personally with him beating Arc at some point in his ladder, as evidence for him normally scaling

Prime Roa does scale to the Crimson Moon and stuff yeah, arguably above since there's statements about Altrouge with Primate Murder being above Brunestud in a way too or whatever it was, and Roa won against her

The Ciel part for me is iffy because Red Arc beating 50% happened in Act Cadenza, where iirc it was Wallachia as TATARI, and his version of Arc is explicitly equal to 30%, so her beating 50% and thus scaling just seems like typical fighting game arcade issues

Removing the Archetype Earth stuff from ORT is fine I suppose, I don't think anything directly scales him above her

Touko's profile is missing a lot of stuff it probably just needs it's own crt to add everything she's missing
 
Using Nasu's word of god for evidence is too unreliable, as they are so inconsistent with the material to the point of meme worthiness
I agree that if his words contradict his works, his works should take priority. But if they aren't contradicted, they should be counted since he still IS the author. Also, these double standards are weird since this site uses his interview statements that are massively contradicted, like scaling Servants to top-tier DAAs and Arcueid.


also for Archetype saying she could beat Void, couldn't that have simply been boasting ?
You'd need evidence for that, especially if the gap was that big, Archetype would know her boasting is meaningless for someone who can supposedly one shot her. And she'd know since she seems to clearly know exactly who and what Void is.

Besides Void is a massive jobber
Void has never even fought.
Unless you're referring to GO, where she's out of character there anyways and in a Servant container.
Void here directly sent Ryougi to the Tsukihime worlds to draw out Archetype.
Screwing around for the hell of it in GO isn't the same as her going out of her way to send herself to another timeline and make her other personality start killing things to draw Archetype out.
 
I'll have to disagree with scaling to Void, there's a lot of stuff wrong with the reasons you gave, but the biggest one is that nothing in the Melty Blood encounter implies Void was involved at all, it was just Shiki vs Arcueid. And Void would have no reason to really act there during the encounter, as Shiki herself says it's all a dream and doesn't matter, and Void isn't exactly out to keep Shiki safe or anything.
She specifically says her other self is the one urging her to do this. And it obviously isn't SHIKI, who is dead given the personality that's active. And Arcueid was clearly talking to Void through Ryougi, considering her conversation doesn't match up with Ryougi's goals intentions or traits at all. It's not like there's any anti-scaling that would disprove this anyways, since Crimson Moon is explicitly compared to normal Arcued (Red Arcueid) multiple times,



As for scaling everyone to Arc's statement about demon lords, idk if that's usable for scaling to 30% since she did that while at full power way in the past, it was why she was born and all, then basically all of them were gone by the time she bit Roa and lost any amount of power
That would be referring to 50% Arcueid (we know this because she has this much strength in MB after regaining the portion of power Roa stole from her) 30% Arc shouldn't be that for off.
Idk about the Nero Chaos stuff either, Arc being unable to destroy him wasn't in reference to the 999th beast, but to the Chaos as a whole, the full thing that he'd eventually become, which is shown as Maiko starts becoming just full Chaos, and no one but Shiki is able to stop her. So idk if it'd really scale to him, since that's explicitly not him, it's just Chaos and Nvnqsr would be gone. And I'd not use any game play stuff from Melty Blood personally with him beating Arc at some point in his ladder, as evidence for him normally scaling
I see. Still, Nrvnqsr should be around 30% Arc normally, so his most powerful form defeating 50% Arcueid is not so out of the question.


Prime Roa does scale to the Crimson Moon and stuff yeah, arguably above since there's statements about Altrouge with Primate Murder being above Brunestud in a way too or whatever it was, and Roa won against her
Glad we agree on this.
The Ciel part for me is iffy because Red Arc beating 50% happened in Act Cadenza, where iirc it was Wallachia as TATARI, and his version of Arc is explicitly equal to 30%, so her beating 50% and thus scaling just seems like typical fighting game arcade issues
For Wallachia only using 30% of Arcueid's power, that is because it is Wallachia trying to wield her power, which is different from an independent Tatari manifestation. The Red Arcueid that is her own self created from nightmares seems to have more power, as she defeats 50% Arcueid in her story like i said. So basically, Wallachia himself using a Tatari body is limited to how much power he can personally pull out of said body. But an independent Tatari personality can easily be as strong as the original or close, because it's not actually Wallachia controlling them, but their own selves. We've seen many times that Tatari manifestations can actually be stronger than the summoner of Tatari, as we see Nrvnqsr, Nanaya, and multiple other Tatari ironically kill their summoner.
Removing the Archetype Earth stuff from ORT is fine I suppose, I don't think anything directly scales him above her
Yeah.
Touko's profile is missing a lot of stuff it probably just needs it's own crt to add everything she's missing
True.
 
Disagree with scaling to Void as well.

okay with removing stuff on ORT.

I think its much better to wait for Mahoyo TL to deal with Touko.

no comment on other stuff.
 
Disagree with 1-A Arcueid. The reason is full of assumption. Author statement is invalid
Why? It has never been contradicted to my knowledge and it is actually supported by Arc being confident in defeating Void in MB, despite knowing who she was. Ryougi even said she was sent to kill "the same kind of person as she was" which implies Arc is also connected to Akasha.
 
She specifically says her other self is the one urging her to do this. And it obviously isn't SHIKI, who is dead given the personality that's active. And Arcueid was clearly talking to Void through Ryougi, considering her conversation doesn't match up with Ryougi's goals intentions or traits at all. It's not like there's any anti-scaling that would disprove this anyways, since Crimson Moon is explicitly compared to normal Arcued (Red Arcueid) multiple times,
She doesn't say that, no. Arc's statement about the thing that brought her forth seems to imply its the counter force, which would make much more sense considering Shiki had been brought forth by the counter force already in canon, to fight a threat.

Nothing Arc says implies she knows about or is talking to Void through Shiki either. Her conversation matches up pretty well with Shiki there, who, summoned by the counter force into a dream where nothing matters, seeks to kill the unkillable target given to her, with Shiki boasting after that even gods will fall under her knife.

Even in a scenario where we assumed, for whatever reason, it was Void she was talking to, or who urged Shiki onward, Arc being confident when they were both sorta trash talking eachother near the end there also wouldn't even imply scaling since there's no reason Void would have fought, if Void was the one who had Shiki hunt Arc for whatever reason (she has literally none), she'd have just taken control and been doing everything herself, so there wouldn't have been an arcade ladder for Ryougi.

And worst of all, even if we assume Arc knows about Void and was talking to her, and that Void was the one fighting and who brought Shiki there (all unsubstantiated assumptions) we don't know the outcome of that fight at all, and all there is is Arc saying she's unkillable, and telling Shiki to try to remove her grin with death, there's really no avenue to scale.

The Nasu statement also doesn't say she's the strongest as it wasn't a top 3 order, it was just the top 3 in general
That would be referring to 50% Arcueid (we know this because she has this much strength in MB after regaining the portion of power Roa stole from her) 30% Arc shouldn't be that for off.
No, because that statement is talking about the past, when she was born to hunt those demon lords, which was full power Arc, the statement you posted doesn't exactly have any scaling relevance to 30% at all
I see. Still, Nrvnqsr should be around 30% Arc normally, so his most powerful form defeating 50% Arcueid is not so out of the question.
It's still sorta an assumption that isn't backed up by the series outside of an arcade ladder, so I'd personally just not go with it especially since Arc goes from like tier 6 at 30% to tier 1 at 50%
For Wallachia only using 30% of Arcueid's power, that is because it is Wallachia trying to wield her power, which is different from an independent Tatari manifestation. The Red Arcueid that is her own self created from nightmares seems to have more power, as she defeats 50% Arcueid in her story like i said. So basically, Wallachia himself using a Tatari body is limited to how much power he can personally pull out of said body. But an independent Tatari personality can easily be as strong as the original or close, because it's not actually Wallachia controlling them, but their own selves. We've seen many times that Tatari manifestations can actually be stronger than the summoner of Tatari, as we see Nrvnqsr, Nanaya, and multiple other Tatari ironically kill their summoner.
Nanaya killing Len and stuff doesn't really show that Red Arc under Wallachia>Red Arc under Wallachia just because he isn't controlling her this time, which is the main issue.

There are other issues with this route of scaling, such as the same Red Arc who won stating she's just a small fry compared to Arc, and upon winning in the ladder, expressing surprise that it was even possible, so yeah I'm not entirely sold on it
 
She doesn't say that, no. Arc's statement about the thing that brought her forth seems to imply its the counter force, which would make much more sense considering Shiki had been brought forth by the counter force already in canon, to fight a threat.
No, Ryougi herself says her other "self" is egging her on to do this.
Nothing Arc says implies she knows about or is talking to Void through Shiki either. Her conversation matches up pretty well with Shiki there, who, summoned by the counter force into a dream where nothing matters, seeks to kill the unkillable target given to her, with Shiki boasting after that even gods will fall under her knife.
6.png

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This doesn't fit talking to Ryougi at all.

Even in a scenario where we assumed, for whatever reason, it was Void she was talking to, or who urged Shiki onward, Arc being confident when they were both sorta trash talking eachother near the end there also wouldn't even imply scaling since there's no reason Void would have fought, if Void was the one who had Shiki hunt Arc for whatever reason (she has literally none), she'd have just taken control and been doing everything herself, so there wouldn't have been an arcade ladder for Ryougi.

Void is the one that brought Ryougi there in the first place. She wouldn't take over before Archetype came out because there is no need to. Ryougi handled everyone else just fine.
Archetype clearly knows who and what Void is and is confident in taking her despite this, which supports Nasu placing her above Void.
And worst of all, even if we assume Arc knows about Void and was talking to her, and that Void was the one fighting and who brought Shiki there (all unsubstantiated assumptions) we don't know the outcome of that fight at all, and all there is is Arc saying she's unkillable, and telling Shiki to try to remove her grin with death, there's really no avenue to scale.
Her confidence in defeating Void combined with the statement is evidence enough.
The Nasu statement also doesn't say she's the strongest as it wasn't a top 3 order, it was just the top 3 in general
Top 3 is automatically assumed to be in order. Why would it not be? This is why when a top list isn't in order, people usually clarify that it isn't because the default assumption is that it is. The statement also has never been contradicted.

No, because that statement is talking about the past, when she was born to hunt those demon lords, which was full power Arc, the statement you posted doesn't exactly have any scaling relevance to 30% at all
Pre-Roa Arc is still only 50%. She can't use her full power without the obvious consequences. Since she didn't seem to have problems with them at 50%, 30% probably could too. But regardless, she's massively above normal True Ancestors.

t's still sorta an assumption that isn't backed up by the series outside of an arcade ladder, so I'd personally just not go with it especially since Arc goes from like tier 6 at 30% to tier 1 at 50%
Nrvnqsr is comparable to Wallachia, who can draw out 30% of Arc's powers. So again him being able to beat 50% Arc using his most powerful form isn't that impossible. And wouldn't Arc be tier 1 only at 100%?
Nanaya killing Len and stuff doesn't really show that Red Arc under Wallachia>Red Arc under Wallachia just because he isn't controlling her this time, which is the main issue.
We know Wallachia controlling someone directly is different from him just summoning them. An example is Wallachia directly in control of Nanaya lost to Sion and Tohno. While Nanaya just spawned by the Tatari without Wallachia being in control of him casually toyed with 50% Arcueid.
There are other issues with this route of scaling, such as the same Red Arc who won stating she's just a small fry compared to Arc, and upon winning in the ladder, expressing surprise that it was even possible, so yeah I'm not entirely sold on it
I'm quite sure she was referring to a personality thing, rather than power. And even if she was, she was being sarcastic, since she threatened to rip her apart and was confident in beating her, which she did.

What? She was surprised yes, but because of how easy it was. She even says "Aw, dead already?"
 
Agreed with ORT and Roa stuff.

And wouldn't Arc be tier 1 only at 100%?
No, 50% Arcueid can challenge Amaterasu and is generally said to be stronger than BB.

I just wouldn't take Nasu's comment on the top 3 very seriously. Not only is it from 2004, which has a lot of wack WoG, but he even said "not counting Servants", which would imply Servants would enter the list. Needless to say, that's wack.

As for Melty Blood, I just wouldn't assume anything, considering the fight's not only off-screen, but in the only other appearance Void Shiki has made outside of Kara no Kyoukai, that being FGO, she just kind of refused to use her Root powers due to finding it boring and predictable. No reason the same couldn't happen here.

Agree with Paul on the rest.
 
i agree with Red Arcueid being equal to Crimson Moon. this is an objective fact. the problem is that it doesn't work on this website because Crimson Moon is Tier 1 even though he isn't multiversal at all realistically. so unless we upgrade Arcueid at all of her percentages as Tier 1 and by extension the rest of the Tsukihime cast (dear god no), i find scaling Red Arcueid to Crimson Moon pointless, even if she does realistically scale to him because he ISN'T Tier 1.

TLDR: i agree from an objective standpoint that Red Arcueid = Crimson Moon. but I disagree when using this website as a basis, since she clearly isn't Tier 1. and i highly doubt Crimson Moon and all of the other falsely ranked Tier 1s are getting downgraded.

agree with the Archetype stuff, but it isn't going to happen here so it's irrelevant.

agree with ORT and Prime Roa stuff.

@CrimsonStarFallen No, 50% Arcueid can challenge Amaterasu and is generally said to be stronger than BB.
that's not how percentages work. 50% Arcueid was getting toyed with by a weaker shadow of Nanaya Shiki and is surpassed by numerous Tsukihime characters. even her full power state is surpassed by multiple Tsukihime characters, like Prime Roa, Nanaya, Complete Inversion Akiha etc. this website has a weird key issue though with Arcueid. her 50% self is considered a "post-Tsukihime" key, which would mean Melty Blood. it is rated as Island Level. but then she has a Melty Blood key that makes her 1-C, even though this clearly isn't the case and is basically the same key as her post-Tsukihime self, which again is Melty Blood. there was a thread made to take that Melty Blood key and put it on her Extra profile. everyone agreed on it but the thread died.
 
No, Ryougi herself says her other "self" is egging her on to do this.
Which stage does she say this on, because I've apparently missed that one
This part sorta further implies the counter force and not Void. The will of the heavens and of the planet split and continue widening, which describes pretty well the relationship between Alaya and Gaia, their wills separate and kept diverging more, to the point Gaia wants humans gone and Alaya preserves them. Gaia makes beasts and such, and Alaya makes people fight them, which is what is happening here in a sense. A true ancestor born of Gaia, is fighting Shiki, acting as an agent of Alaya
All encompassing order also doesn't exactly fit Void, considering what the root is, as opposed to the counter force. So these ones don't exactly imply Void, especially since Arc then goes onto mention how neither of them (her nor Shiki) should exist, and thus the one responsible is trying to get rid of both, which, Void has no reason to do since again, she literally has never wanted to do anything because she has omniscience, however the counter force has a multitude of reasons to do so, given what Arc is at that point, and the fact that Shiki's body is a path to the root which is very bad for everyone else.
Void is the one that brought Ryougi there in the first place. She wouldn't take over before Archetype came out because there is no need to. Ryougi handled everyone else just fine.
Archetype clearly knows who and what Void is and is confident in taking her despite this, which supports Nasu placing her above Void
Like I said, I never saw this line that says Void did it, and it wouldn't make sense because again, Void has no reason to care. Consider this, if Void had any reason to care about Arc, she'd have had a far greater reason to care about Araya when he was going to access the root to erase all existence and look over the records, but she literally never came out because she didn't care.
Her confidence in defeating Void combined with the statement is evidence enough.
It's not, because not only is the statement not saying she's stronger, but even assuming it all meant Void, she doesn't imply confidence in beating Void, because Void never comes out still, it's Ryougi Shiki talking to, and fighting Arc, you can tell from her comments, form and everything. So even assuming she knew Void, was talking about it, etc, she was only confident in beating the one who was talking back to her, Ryougi
Top 3 is automatically assumed to be in order. Why would it not be? This is why when a top list isn't in order, people usually clarify that it isn't because the default assumption is that it is. The statement also has never been contradicted.
Because as someone said above, the original statement wasn't implying an order? Also because if it was in order, by Nasu's own other statements, Neco Arc would have been on the top of the first list. Arcueid, who herself is explicitly just a being of the planet and the highest life on it etc, is also, if that's in order, above Demons, when one girl with demonic possession from DDD explicitly possesses the ability to surpass and destroy the world, which would mean the list contradicts itself, and that's without the other issues from the list that Crimson brought up.
Pre-Roa Arc is still only 50%. She can't use her full power without the obvious consequences. Since she didn't seem to have problems with them at 50%, 30% probably could too. But regardless, she's massively above normal True Ancestors.
Why are you assuming that? The only reason post Arc Roa couldn't use her full powers is because she was suppressing her bloodlust by force by using her power. Pre Roa Arc didn't even know she was a vampire or had bloodlust (explicitly stated) and thus never had a reason to use 50% of her powers to restrain the bloodlust, so again, no reason for this statement to apply to anyone but past Arc who was pre Roa and full power
Nrvnqsr is comparable to Wallachia, who can draw out 30% of Arc's powers. So again him being able to beat 50% Arc using his most powerful form isn't that impossible. And wouldn't Arc be tier 1 only at 100%?
It's a pretty big assumption given the power differences. And nah, like said above, she's tier 1 at 50%
We know Wallachia controlling someone directly is different from him just summoning them. An example is Wallachia directly in control of Nanaya lost to Sion and Tohno. While Nanaya just spawned by the Tatari without Wallachia being in control of him casually toyed with 50% Arcueid.
I mean that part could just come from like, a literal skill issue, rather than summoned ones being stronger than controlled ones. And wasn't Nanaya vs 50% Arc from like, Len's TATARI or something, I don't think it was Wallachia's at least
I'm quite sure she was referring to a personality thing, rather than power. And even if she was, she was being sarcastic, since she threatened to rip her apart and was confident in beating her, which she did.

What? She was surprised yes, but because of how easy it was. She even says "Aw, dead already?"
Yeah but then she brings up how strong she is, and then says "it must be because she's died in the past" implying Shiki killing her before is the only reason she could win, which further backs up her saying Arc was a monster as a statement of power. Red Arc is just like, genuinely insane, so her threatening to rip people apart after saying they're monsters isn't so out there
 
Which stage does she say this on, because I've apparently missed that one

This part sorta further implies the counter force and not Void. The will of the heavens and of the planet split and continue widening, which describes pretty well the relationship between Alaya and Gaia, their wills separate and kept diverging more, to the point Gaia wants humans gone and Alaya preserves them. Gaia makes beasts and such, and Alaya makes people fight them, which is what is happening here in a sense. A true ancestor born of Gaia, is fighting Shiki, acting as an agent of Alaya

All encompassing order also doesn't exactly fit Void, considering what the root is, as opposed to the counter force. So these ones don't exactly imply Void, especially since Arc then goes onto mention how neither of them (her nor Shiki) should exist, and thus the one responsible is trying to get rid of both, which, Void has no reason to do since again, she literally has never wanted to do anything because she has omniscience, however the counter force has a multitude of reasons to do so, given what Arc is at that point, and the fact that Shiki's body is a path to the root which is very bad for everyone else.

Like I said, I never saw this line that says Void did it, and it wouldn't make sense because again, Void has no reason to care. Consider this, if Void had any reason to care about Arc, she'd have had a far greater reason to care about Araya when he was going to access the root to erase all existence and look over the records, but she literally never came out because she didn't care.

It's not, because not only is the statement not saying she's stronger, but even assuming it all meant Void, she doesn't imply confidence in beating Void, because Void never comes out still, it's Ryougi Shiki talking to, and fighting Arc, you can tell from her comments, form and everything. So even assuming she knew Void, was talking about it, etc, she was only confident in beating the one who was talking back to her, Ryougi

Because as someone said above, the original statement wasn't implying an order? Also because if it was in order, by Nasu's own other statements, Neco Arc would have been on the top of the first list. Arcueid, who herself is explicitly just a being of the planet and the highest life on it etc, is also, if that's in order, above Demons, when one girl with demonic possession from DDD explicitly possesses the ability to surpass and destroy the world, which would mean the list contradicts itself, and that's without the other issues from the list that Crimson brought up.

Why are you assuming that? The only reason post Arc Roa couldn't use her full powers is because she was suppressing her bloodlust by force by using her power. Pre Roa Arc didn't even know she was a vampire or had bloodlust (explicitly stated) and thus never had a reason to use 50% of her powers to restrain the bloodlust, so again, no reason for this statement to apply to anyone but past Arc who was pre Roa and full power

It's a pretty big assumption given the power differences. And nah, like said above, she's tier 1 at 50%

I mean that part could just come from like, a literal skill issue, rather than summoned ones being stronger than controlled ones. And wasn't Nanaya vs 50% Arc from like, Len's TATARI or something, I don't think it was Wallachia's at least

Yeah but then she brings up how strong she is, and then says "it must be because she's died in the past" implying Shiki killing her before is the only reason she could win, which further backs up her saying Arc was a monster as a statement of power. Red Arc is just like, genuinely insane, so her threatening to rip people apart after saying they're monsters isn't so out there
don't really care much about the Archetype scaling, as true as it is, but I'm just sending one of the scans you requested.
4.png


it being the counter force doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons, but i don't care to debate that. just sending the scan.

anyways, would it be time for mods to review this thread and accept the parts that have been accepted? or too early? honestly kind of blindsided when i was notified of this thread and surprised any of it was accepted at all.
 
Hi, this will probably be a very large thread, but bear with it.

First off, i wanted to address an issue with ORT's profile:

Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and is stated to be one of the strongest Types, and is even above Archetype: Earth)

But this is actually false. Not only ORT was confirmed to not be the strongest Type that arrived on Earth, but his status as a Type is even put into question:


Most importantly, it was never stated to be above Archetype Earth, and if anything this is straight up contradicted by Nasu placing Arc in his top 3 strongest characters:



So him being stronger than Archetype Earth should be removed. Especially considering that Red Arcueid alone was stated to be equal to Type Moon already:



The second (and likely the biggest) revision is about Archetype Earth herself, which goes back to the previous top 3 statement. As you can see, Nasu put her above Void Shiki as the strongest character in his works. This is also backed up by Archetype talking to Void through Ryougi in MB and being fully confident in defeating her despite knowing what she was This should mean that she has a vaster connection to Akasha than Void does. You may say an Ultimate One having that much access to Akasha is weird, but keep in my Void is literally just a human with an origin linking to it and still became that powerful. So yeah, to me the only thing I can see is Archetype having more access to Akasha than Void, since Void herself implies she doesn't have a complete connection since she doesn't even 100% understand her existence and said she can do "just about" anything, so I believe the only logical conclusion that isn't contradicted is that Archetype just has slightly more. This is also implied in MB, where Ryougi said her and Archetype are "the same kind of person", which while vague, is just some secondary evidence that she has something to do with Akasha, since I don't know any other similarity between the two.
So i propose to upgrade Archetype Earth to 1-A. We already saw that Red Arc alone is equal to Type Moon, so she is massively above the other Types. This last quote should also be mentioned in her profile at full power.

As for normal Arc, she should be upgraded since she can easily kill Demon Lords:

unknown.png


Demon lords are fallen True Ancestors who can utilize their full power, as they have succumbed to their bloodlust.
Yet even normal True Ancestors were stated to make DAAs look like "children" in comparison, and that attacking one would be equivalent to suicide:

8356126-7112323-2658175244-10.jp.jpg


So Arcueid should be upgraded far above normal DAAs, and by extension Servants. This would also scale to anyone who scales to 30% Arcueid like top tier DAA such as Nrvnqsr and Wallachia etc.
Regarding Nrvnqsr, when Arcueid said she would have difficulty killing him even at her full power, I believe this would be referring to his 999th Beast self. This is backed up since in Melty Blood, Nrvnqsr defeats Tatari Red Arcueid (without much issue either). While it all happened via gameplay, I feel it's safe to assume he entered his 999th Beast state and won, since this would directly fit in with Arcueid saying it would be difficult to beat him even at full power. This isn't too weird either since Arcueid did hype him as an elite among the elite even among Dead Apostles and was an absurd anomaly. She even said current Roa (not prime) would be nothing compared to him. So his 999th Beast self should be rated as above 50% Arcueid.


The third point is about Roa. This is only possible, but still worth pointing out. He can be argued to be stronger than Type Moon:


RD.png
RD2.png


Roa was already supposedly very OP as a human, so combined with Arcueid's power he was pretty much a god. And since he knows much about vampires due to his profession and obsession, he makes this claim knowing everyone on the DAA list, which would include Crimson Moon. Altrouge also was a suitable candidate to be Type-Moon's successor, but the problem wasn't her power, but her mental state.


Fourth is about Powered Ciel. In MB she was able to easily kill tatari Red Arcueid, who defeated 50% Arc in her story. So it should be mentioned in her profile.

8264639-tta.png


Fifth we have Touko. I think her profile is a bit lacking, she only has her sealed box demon and primordial runes. But she should also have her base capabilities, projection machine , Beowulf and the stolen magic crests she had in Mahou. So i only propose to expand a bit her profile.








Summary:

-ORT: Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and should be comparable to the other Types). Crystal Valley also ignores conventional durability

-Arcueid : Attack Potency: Island level (can easily kill Demon Lords, who are True Ancestors that can fully utilize their powers due to fully succumbing to their bloodlust, yet even while restricting their powers they are stated to make Dead Apostle Ancestors look like "children" in comparison, created a huge crater) | Small Building level (Superior to Ciel, can easily kill Nrvnqsr's weaker beasts before cutting him in half) | Island level (Stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime state) | Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (As a Spirit with the status of Planet, Arcueid is above most Divine Spirits. Even when weakened in the digital world and having her status reduced to god, Arcueid is still the only one in the Extra world capable of bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where it's possible to defeat her, no matter how small that chance might be. At full power, she is stated to be equal to the Crimson Moon) | Outerverse level (Regarded as above Void Shiki via Word of God as the strongest character in the Nasuverse and was confident in killing Void in Actress Again. Due to this, she must have more access to Akasha than Void)

-Nrvnqsr Chaos : Attack Potency: Wall level with weak beasts (The weakest beasts can shatter walls and cause small tremors). Island level with normal beasts (average Dead Apostle Ancestors are comparable to Servants, and Nrvnqsr is superior in terms of power to top tiers Dead Apostle Ancestors like Zepia). Small Country level with strongest beasts (His beasts include Phantasmal Beasts like unicorns and a low-ranking dragon, which may be comparable to Rider's Pegasus). Higher as the 999th Beast (The "strongest beast", made up of all his other beasts condensed into a single entity with the full extent of his power. Killed tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid. Arcueid herself described him as a supreme vampire that would have been difficult to defeat even with her full power).

- Wallachia : Attack Potency: Varies, up to Island level to Small Country level (While TATARI's powers are not based around destruction, it can manifest itself in a variety of forms of varying strength based on fears and rumors, such as Nrvnqsr Chaos, Kouma Kishima, and an Arcueid that has given into her bloodlust, though it lacks the power to manifest her at the full extent of her power. As a Dead Apostle Ancestor, its strongest manifestations should be capable of fighting on par with Servants. In the past, TATARI has even manifested as a Divine Beast the size of a mountain, likely making it superior to the likes of Rider's Pegasus) | Island level (Even without TATARI, Zepia is a powerful Dead Apostle Ancestor noted to have great potential by Sion and Aoko, and should be comparable to 30% Arcueid, as he was able to draw out that much power when possessing her body).

Type Moon : Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Equal to Red Arcueid and is above Divine Spirits as a result. His Moon Drop should be capable of destroying the World and forced Zelretch to use all of his power just to stop it)

Roa : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can defeat Ciel, should be comparable to other Dead Apostles, who should be superior to the likes of magi like Kirei). Can ignore conventional durability by cutting a person's lines of life to kill them. | Island level (Is the closest to his prime among all his other bodies, capable of fighting against Servants. Should be superior to 50% Arcueid. A weaker body fought against Edmond Dantès when he was alive. ) | Island level ( killed all True Ancestors), possibly Low Complex Multiverse level to Complex Multiverse level (Stated to be the strongest vampire at the time, which would include Type Moon. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, who would have been a suitable candidate for the Crimson Moon if not for her instability)

Ciel : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Stronger than the likes of Kirei Kotomine and Rin Tohsaka, can throw her Black Keys through reinforced concrete walls), Island level with Roa's magecraft (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons (The Seventh Holy Scripture can be used to completely destroy someone's soul, reducing them to nothingness, and can kill Servants in this manner). | Island level (Through self-hypnotism, she's able to make full use of Roa's abilities. Defeated tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons

Touko : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Is a top tier magus), higher with stolen magic crests (far stronger than before, easily deflected apprentice Aoko's strongest attack). At least Small Building level, possibly Island level with projection machine (Cut Souren Araya in half, although it was a fake body), Island level with her sealed box Demon (Her sealed box demon can defeat Souren Araya by his own admission), higher with preparation (Can use traps that shoot attacks a million times her usual power, enough to overwhelm Aoko) and with Beowulf (defeated a Dead Apostle Ancestor)

sir i just want to say that you should put a agree, disagree, and neutral thing in your op


so you know who's neutral on this, disagree on this, and agree on this
 
Why are you assuming that? The only reason post Arc Roa couldn't use her full powers is because she was suppressing her bloodlust by force by using her power. Pre Roa Arc didn't even know she was a vampire or had bloodlust (explicitly stated) and thus never had a reason to use 50% of her powers to restrain the bloodlust, so again, no reason for this statement to apply to anyone but past Arc who was pre Roa and full power
where it says she doesn't restrict her bloodlust? All TAs inherently need to do that.
Her not knowing she's a vampire or what it is doesn't mean she isn't restricting her bloodlust. She may not assume that's a trait exclusive to vampires at the time, considering she didn't know much.

Anyway i'll drop the Archetype Earth stuff since it seems it won't be accepted.
I'll also drop the MB stuff since it requires too assumptions, yeah.

However, i would still propose to upgrade powered Ciel and Roa in Ciel's body to Low 6-B. The reason for this is because it was stated that Ciel has around 4000 units of magical energy, while things like Rider's Pegasus is only around 2500 units.
 
Agree with just about everyone else on removing the ORT stuff. Seems fairly straightforward.

Roa being above Crimson Moon is also fine for reasons OP and Paul_Frank gave.

Touko: yeah looking over her profile that should definitely be updated eventually.

MB chain scaling: looks like a conclusion has been reached regarding that already. Yeah, too many assumptions to rely solely on for a buff.

Scaling to Void Shiki: kinda iffy on this one won't lie. Like others have pointed out, Nasu has said stuff that's contradicted heavily (one example being Void Shiki can only fight defensively against Servants), and with the Shiki encounter, kinda hard to say whether or not it really was Void speaking. And if it was, we don't know how the fight played out. Would prefer smth more solid before agreeing with the scaling. You can maybe argue for a "possibly outer" key but ik most probs won't agree anyways looking this over.

Willing to hear more for it personally. Such a long debated topic smhhhh.
 
@Violatas However, i would still propose to upgrade powered Ciel and Roa in Ciel's body to Low 6-B. The reason for this is because it was stated that Ciel has around 4000 units of magical energy, while things like Rider's Pegasus is only around 2500 units.

What about this?
 
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@Violatas However, i would still propose to upgrade powered Ciel and Roa in Ciel's body to Low 6-B. The reason for this is because it was stated that Ciel has around 4000 units of magical energy, while things like Rider's Pegasus is only around 2500 units.

What about this?
Things like that are prone to be inconsistent and it seems that a scaling chain through magical energy units is less reliable.
 
i agree with Red Arcueid being equal to Crimson Moon. this is an objective fact. the problem is that it doesn't work on this website because Crimson Moon is Tier 1 even though he isn't multiversal at all realistically. so unless we upgrade Arcueid at all of her percentages as Tier 1 and by extension the rest of the Tsukihime cast (dear god no), i find scaling Red Arcueid to Crimson Moon pointless, even if she does realistically scale to him because he ISN'T Tier 1.

TLDR: i agree from an objective standpoint that Red Arcueid = Crimson Moon. but I disagree when using this website as a basis, since she clearly isn't Tier 1. and i highly doubt Crimson Moon and all of the other falsely ranked Tier 1s are getting downgraded.

agree with the Archetype stuff, but it isn't going to happen here so it's irrelevant.

agree with ORT and Prime Roa stuff.


that's not how percentages work. 50% Arcueid was getting toyed with by a weaker shadow of Nanaya Shiki and is surpassed by numerous Tsukihime characters. even her full power state is surpassed by multiple Tsukihime characters, like Prime Roa, Nanaya, Complete Inversion Akiha etc. this website has a weird key issue though with Arcueid. her 50% self is considered a "post-Tsukihime" key, which would mean Melty Blood. it is rated as Island Level. but then she has a Melty Blood key that makes her 1-C, even though this clearly isn't the case and is basically the same key as her post-Tsukihime self, which again is Melty Blood. there was a thread made to take that Melty Blood key and put it on her Extra profile. everyone agreed on it but the thread died.
there was a thread made to take that Melty Blood key and put it on her Extra profile. everyone agreed on it but the thread died.

Back to this. If true then uh that needs to either be revived or a new thread made eventually reopening the topic. Kinda important to rework
 
Disagree with Arcuied scaling above Void because in the first place it's an interview and we know how those can be unreliable and prone to being retconed by later showings especially considering that said interview is from 2007 and that he said "Excluding servants"

Also Using melty blood as a reference point means that Void Shiki Likley wasnt even the subject of Arcuieds statment in the first place because she never takes over meaning "Shiki" was still the one that was doing the talking and Likley the one Arcuied was referring to even then we know that Void never really uses her abilities even in the Garden of Sinners event she just flat out refuses to use them so idk about using the fact that Arcuied was confident she could beat her as a reason to scale her above Void Shiki
 
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