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Hi, this will probably be a very large thread, but bear with it.
First off, i wanted to address an issue with ORT's profile:
Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and is stated to be one of the strongest Types, and is even above Archetype: Earth)
But this is actually false. Not only ORT was confirmed to not be the strongest Type that arrived on Earth, but his status as a Type is even put into question:
So him being stronger than Archetype Earth should be removed. Especially considering that Red Arcueid alone was stated to be equal to Type Moon already:
The second (and likely the biggest) revision is about Archetype Earth herself, which goes back to the previous top 3 statement. As you can see, Nasu put her above Void Shiki as the strongest character in his works. This is also backed up by Archetype talking to Void through Ryougi in MB and being fully confident in defeating her despite knowing what she was This should mean that she has a vaster connection to Akasha than Void does. You may say an Ultimate One having that much access to Akasha is weird, but keep in my Void is literally just a human with an origin linking to it and still became that powerful. So yeah, to me the only thing I can see is Archetype having more access to Akasha than Void, since Void herself implies she doesn't have a complete connection since she doesn't even 100% understand her existence and said she can do "just about" anything, so I believe the only logical conclusion that isn't contradicted is that Archetype just has slightly more. This is also implied in MB, where Ryougi said her and Archetype are "the same kind of person", which while vague, is just some secondary evidence that she has something to do with Akasha, since I don't know any other similarity between the two.
So i propose to upgrade Archetype Earth to 1-A. We already saw that Red Arc alone is equal to Type Moon, so she is massively above the other Types. This last quote should also be mentioned in her profile at full power.
As for normal Arc, she should be upgraded since she can easily kill Demon Lords:
Demon lords are fallen True Ancestors who can utilize their full power, as they have succumbed to their bloodlust.
Yet even normal True Ancestors were stated to make DAAs look like "children" in comparison, and that attacking one would be equivalent to suicide:
So Arcueid should be upgraded far above normal DAAs, and by extension Servants. This would also scale to anyone who scales to 30% Arcueid like top tier DAA such as Nrvnqsr and Wallachia etc.
Regarding Nrvnqsr, when Arcueid said she would have difficulty killing him even at her full power, I believe this would be referring to his 999th Beast self. This is backed up since in Melty Blood, Nrvnqsr defeats Tatari Red Arcueid (without much issue either). While it all happened via gameplay, I feel it's safe to assume he entered his 999th Beast state and won, since this would directly fit in with Arcueid saying it would be difficult to beat him even at full power. This isn't too weird either since Arcueid did hype him as an elite among the elite even among Dead Apostles and was an absurd anomaly. She even said current Roa (not prime) would be nothing compared to him. So his 999th Beast self should be rated as above 50% Arcueid.
The third point is about Roa. This is only possible, but still worth pointing out. He can be argued to be stronger than Type Moon:
Roa was already supposedly very OP as a human, so combined with Arcueid's power he was pretty much a god. And since he knows much about vampires due to his profession and obsession, he makes this claim knowing everyone on the DAA list, which would include Crimson Moon. Altrouge also was a suitable candidate to be Type-Moon's successor, but the problem wasn't her power, but her mental state.
Fourth is about Powered Ciel. In MB she was able to easily kill tatari Red Arcueid, who defeated 50% Arc in her story. So it should be mentioned in her profile.
Fifth we have Touko. I think her profile is a bit lacking, she only has her sealed box demon and primordial runes. But she should also have her base capabilities, projection machine , Beowulf and the stolen magic crests she had in Mahou. So i only propose to expand a bit her profile.
Summary:
-ORT: Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and should be comparable to the other Types). Crystal Valley also ignores conventional durability
-Arcueid : Attack Potency: Island level (can easily kill Demon Lords, who are True Ancestors that can fully utilize their powers due to fully succumbing to their bloodlust, yet even while restricting their powers they are stated to make Dead Apostle Ancestors look like "children" in comparison, created a huge crater) | Small Building level (Superior to Ciel, can easily kill Nrvnqsr's weaker beasts before cutting him in half) | Island level (Stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime state) | Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (As a Spirit with the status of Planet, Arcueid is above most Divine Spirits. Even when weakened in the digital world and having her status reduced to god, Arcueid is still the only one in the Extra world capable of bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where it's possible to defeat her, no matter how small that chance might be. At full power, she is stated to be equal to the Crimson Moon) | Outerverse level (Regarded as above Void Shiki via Word of God as the strongest character in the Nasuverse and was confident in killing Void in Actress Again. Due to this, she must have more access to Akasha than Void)
-Nrvnqsr Chaos : Attack Potency: Wall level with weak beasts (The weakest beasts can shatter walls and cause small tremors). Island level with normal beasts (average Dead Apostle Ancestors are comparable to Servants, and Nrvnqsr is superior in terms of power to top tiers Dead Apostle Ancestors like Zepia). Small Country level with strongest beasts (His beasts include Phantasmal Beasts like unicorns and a low-ranking dragon, which may be comparable to Rider's Pegasus). Higher as the 999th Beast (The "strongest beast", made up of all his other beasts condensed into a single entity with the full extent of his power. Killed tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid. Arcueid herself described him as a supreme vampire that would have been difficult to defeat even with her full power).
- Wallachia : Attack Potency: Varies, up to Island level to Small Country level (While TATARI's powers are not based around destruction, it can manifest itself in a variety of forms of varying strength based on fears and rumors, such as Nrvnqsr Chaos, Kouma Kishima, and an Arcueid that has given into her bloodlust, though it lacks the power to manifest her at the full extent of her power. As a Dead Apostle Ancestor, its strongest manifestations should be capable of fighting on par with Servants. In the past, TATARI has even manifested as a Divine Beast the size of a mountain, likely making it superior to the likes of Rider's Pegasus) | Island level (Even without TATARI, Zepia is a powerful Dead Apostle Ancestor noted to have great potential by Sion and Aoko, and should be comparable to 30% Arcueid, as he was able to draw out that much power when possessing her body).
Type Moon : Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Equal to Red Arcueid and is above Divine Spirits as a result. His Moon Drop should be capable of destroying the World and forced Zelretch to use all of his power just to stop it)
Roa : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can defeat Ciel, should be comparable to other Dead Apostles, who should be superior to the likes of magi like Kirei). Can ignore conventional durability by cutting a person's lines of life to kill them. | Island level (Is the closest to his prime among all his other bodies, capable of fighting against Servants. Should be superior to 50% Arcueid. A weaker body fought against Edmond Dantès when he was alive. ) | Island level ( killed all True Ancestors), possibly Low Complex Multiverse level to Complex Multiverse level (Stated to be the strongest vampire at the time, which would include Type Moon. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, who would have been a suitable candidate for the Crimson Moon if not for her instability)
Ciel : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Stronger than the likes of Kirei Kotomine and Rin Tohsaka, can throw her Black Keys through reinforced concrete walls), Island level with Roa's magecraft (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons (The Seventh Holy Scripture can be used to completely destroy someone's soul, reducing them to nothingness, and can kill Servants in this manner). | Island level (Through self-hypnotism, she's able to make full use of Roa's abilities. Defeated tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons
Touko : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Is a top tier magus), higher with stolen magic crests (far stronger than before, easily deflected apprentice Aoko's strongest attack). At least Small Building level, possibly Island level with projection machine (Cut Souren Araya in half, although it was a fake body), Island level with her sealed box Demon (Her sealed box demon can defeat Souren Araya by his own admission), higher with preparation (Can use traps that shoot attacks a million times her usual power, enough to overwhelm Aoko) and with Beowulf (defeated a Dead Apostle Ancestor)
Agree: @Paul_Frank (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions), @John985 (with ORT revision, neutral on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions). @CrystalValley (with ORT and Roa revisions), @Violatas (With everything except Melty Blood scaling, neutral on Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @FallenMaou2234 (with ORT, Roa, Touko and Ciel revisions)
Disagree: @Overlord775 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Paul_Frank (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @John985 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Vietthai96 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void, unknown on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @XXKINGXX69 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Violatas (With Melty Blood scaling), @FallenMaou2234 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling)
First off, i wanted to address an issue with ORT's profile:
Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and is stated to be one of the strongest Types, and is even above Archetype: Earth)
But this is actually false. Not only ORT was confirmed to not be the strongest Type that arrived on Earth, but his status as a Type is even put into question:
Most importantly, it was never stated to be above Archetype Earth, and if anything this is straight up contradicted by Nasu placing Arc in his top 3 strongest characters:Source: ???
Ultimate One of Mercury(?).
One of the pals of the Ultimate Ones appearing in Notes...but is more like one of those clumsy girls you see on anime in that it landed on Earth just one step earlier (around 5000 years) by accident. It's thought that he's closed himself off in his Crystal Valley until the promised time.
...Actually, might not really be the strongest life form that received Earth's SOS sign.
Can't be killed by Eyes of Instant Death. Doesn't have the concept of death so you'll have to destroy it physically. Character Material - ORT, p.070-071
Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?
A: Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.
Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants) Comptiq 2007-05 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A
So him being stronger than Archetype Earth should be removed. Especially considering that Red Arcueid alone was stated to be equal to Type Moon already:
Berserk Arcueid [Person's name • True Ancestor]
Arcueid after she has succumbed to her vampiric impulse and lost her ability to reason.
Though regarded as equivalent to the Crimson Moon, she is a completely different entity. You could say she's the materialized form of Arcueid's overflowing vampiric impulse. When Berserk Arcueid appears, Arcueid herself is freed from her desire to drink blood. …That's a complete and utter lie, of course.
Unlike Arcueid, she enjoys trampling on her enemies with overwhelming force. Because as a True Ancestor Arcueid does not (cannot) do useless things, she always regulates her fighting ability to match her opponent's. However, Berserk Arcueid will use her power mercilessly even against normal humans.
Incidentally, her over the top speech and behavior is really amusing.
The second (and likely the biggest) revision is about Archetype Earth herself, which goes back to the previous top 3 statement. As you can see, Nasu put her above Void Shiki as the strongest character in his works. This is also backed up by Archetype talking to Void through Ryougi in MB and being fully confident in defeating her despite knowing what she was This should mean that she has a vaster connection to Akasha than Void does. You may say an Ultimate One having that much access to Akasha is weird, but keep in my Void is literally just a human with an origin linking to it and still became that powerful. So yeah, to me the only thing I can see is Archetype having more access to Akasha than Void, since Void herself implies she doesn't have a complete connection since she doesn't even 100% understand her existence and said she can do "just about" anything, so I believe the only logical conclusion that isn't contradicted is that Archetype just has slightly more. This is also implied in MB, where Ryougi said her and Archetype are "the same kind of person", which while vague, is just some secondary evidence that she has something to do with Akasha, since I don't know any other similarity between the two.
So i propose to upgrade Archetype Earth to 1-A. We already saw that Red Arc alone is equal to Type Moon, so she is massively above the other Types. This last quote should also be mentioned in her profile at full power.
As for normal Arc, she should be upgraded since she can easily kill Demon Lords:
Demon lords are fallen True Ancestors who can utilize their full power, as they have succumbed to their bloodlust.
Yet even normal True Ancestors were stated to make DAAs look like "children" in comparison, and that attacking one would be equivalent to suicide:
So Arcueid should be upgraded far above normal DAAs, and by extension Servants. This would also scale to anyone who scales to 30% Arcueid like top tier DAA such as Nrvnqsr and Wallachia etc.
Regarding Nrvnqsr, when Arcueid said she would have difficulty killing him even at her full power, I believe this would be referring to his 999th Beast self. This is backed up since in Melty Blood, Nrvnqsr defeats Tatari Red Arcueid (without much issue either). While it all happened via gameplay, I feel it's safe to assume he entered his 999th Beast state and won, since this would directly fit in with Arcueid saying it would be difficult to beat him even at full power. This isn't too weird either since Arcueid did hype him as an elite among the elite even among Dead Apostles and was an absurd anomaly. She even said current Roa (not prime) would be nothing compared to him. So his 999th Beast self should be rated as above 50% Arcueid.
The third point is about Roa. This is only possible, but still worth pointing out. He can be argued to be stronger than Type Moon:
Roa was already supposedly very OP as a human, so combined with Arcueid's power he was pretty much a god. And since he knows much about vampires due to his profession and obsession, he makes this claim knowing everyone on the DAA list, which would include Crimson Moon. Altrouge also was a suitable candidate to be Type-Moon's successor, but the problem wasn't her power, but her mental state.
Fourth is about Powered Ciel. In MB she was able to easily kill tatari Red Arcueid, who defeated 50% Arc in her story. So it should be mentioned in her profile.
Fifth we have Touko. I think her profile is a bit lacking, she only has her sealed box demon and primordial runes. But she should also have her base capabilities, projection machine , Beowulf and the stolen magic crests she had in Mahou. So i only propose to expand a bit her profile.
Summary:
-ORT: Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and should be comparable to the other Types). Crystal Valley also ignores conventional durability
-Arcueid : Attack Potency: Island level (can easily kill Demon Lords, who are True Ancestors that can fully utilize their powers due to fully succumbing to their bloodlust, yet even while restricting their powers they are stated to make Dead Apostle Ancestors look like "children" in comparison, created a huge crater) | Small Building level (Superior to Ciel, can easily kill Nrvnqsr's weaker beasts before cutting him in half) | Island level (Stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime state) | Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (As a Spirit with the status of Planet, Arcueid is above most Divine Spirits. Even when weakened in the digital world and having her status reduced to god, Arcueid is still the only one in the Extra world capable of bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where it's possible to defeat her, no matter how small that chance might be. At full power, she is stated to be equal to the Crimson Moon) | Outerverse level (Regarded as above Void Shiki via Word of God as the strongest character in the Nasuverse and was confident in killing Void in Actress Again. Due to this, she must have more access to Akasha than Void)
-Nrvnqsr Chaos : Attack Potency: Wall level with weak beasts (The weakest beasts can shatter walls and cause small tremors). Island level with normal beasts (average Dead Apostle Ancestors are comparable to Servants, and Nrvnqsr is superior in terms of power to top tiers Dead Apostle Ancestors like Zepia). Small Country level with strongest beasts (His beasts include Phantasmal Beasts like unicorns and a low-ranking dragon, which may be comparable to Rider's Pegasus). Higher as the 999th Beast (The "strongest beast", made up of all his other beasts condensed into a single entity with the full extent of his power. Killed tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid. Arcueid herself described him as a supreme vampire that would have been difficult to defeat even with her full power).
- Wallachia : Attack Potency: Varies, up to Island level to Small Country level (While TATARI's powers are not based around destruction, it can manifest itself in a variety of forms of varying strength based on fears and rumors, such as Nrvnqsr Chaos, Kouma Kishima, and an Arcueid that has given into her bloodlust, though it lacks the power to manifest her at the full extent of her power. As a Dead Apostle Ancestor, its strongest manifestations should be capable of fighting on par with Servants. In the past, TATARI has even manifested as a Divine Beast the size of a mountain, likely making it superior to the likes of Rider's Pegasus) | Island level (Even without TATARI, Zepia is a powerful Dead Apostle Ancestor noted to have great potential by Sion and Aoko, and should be comparable to 30% Arcueid, as he was able to draw out that much power when possessing her body).
Type Moon : Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Equal to Red Arcueid and is above Divine Spirits as a result. His Moon Drop should be capable of destroying the World and forced Zelretch to use all of his power just to stop it)
Roa : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Can defeat Ciel, should be comparable to other Dead Apostles, who should be superior to the likes of magi like Kirei). Can ignore conventional durability by cutting a person's lines of life to kill them. | Island level (Is the closest to his prime among all his other bodies, capable of fighting against Servants. Should be superior to 50% Arcueid. A weaker body fought against Edmond Dantès when he was alive. ) | Island level ( killed all True Ancestors), possibly Low Complex Multiverse level to Complex Multiverse level (Stated to be the strongest vampire at the time, which would include Type Moon. Defeated Altrouge Brunestud, who would have been a suitable candidate for the Crimson Moon if not for her instability)
Ciel : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Stronger than the likes of Kirei Kotomine and Rin Tohsaka, can throw her Black Keys through reinforced concrete walls), Island level with Roa's magecraft (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons (The Seventh Holy Scripture can be used to completely destroy someone's soul, reducing them to nothingness, and can kill Servants in this manner). | Island level (Through self-hypnotism, she's able to make full use of Roa's abilities. Defeated tatari Red Arcueid, who is superior to 50% Arcueid). Can ignore conventional durability with conceptual weapons
Touko : Attack Potency: Small Building level (Is a top tier magus), higher with stolen magic crests (far stronger than before, easily deflected apprentice Aoko's strongest attack). At least Small Building level, possibly Island level with projection machine (Cut Souren Araya in half, although it was a fake body), Island level with her sealed box Demon (Her sealed box demon can defeat Souren Araya by his own admission), higher with preparation (Can use traps that shoot attacks a million times her usual power, enough to overwhelm Aoko) and with Beowulf (defeated a Dead Apostle Ancestor)
Agree: @Paul_Frank (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions), @John985 (with ORT revision, neutral on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (With ORT, Roa and Touko revisions). @CrystalValley (with ORT and Roa revisions), @Violatas (With everything except Melty Blood scaling, neutral on Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @FallenMaou2234 (with ORT, Roa, Touko and Ciel revisions)
Disagree: @Overlord775 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Paul_Frank (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @John985 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Vietthai96 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void, unknown on the rest), @CrimsonStarFallen (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling), @XXKINGXX69 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void), @Violatas (With Melty Blood scaling), @FallenMaou2234 (with Archetype Earth scaling to Void and Melty Blood scaling)
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