Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I've checked some more things out In terms of power by Type, NP's seemed to be tiered this way

Anti-Unit<Anti-Army<Anti-Fortress<Anti-World

Caliburn is an Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm that when Overloaded, it is Rank A+

Nine Lives is also an Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm that is Rank A+, therefore it would scale to whatever we scale Caliburn to

Gae Bolg's Thrown Version is an Anti-Army Rank B+ NP, theoretically since Anti-Army>Anti-Unit, it could scale to Calburn, but since they don't have equal rank, we shouldn't assume their comparable

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Arash is like the exception to the rule because his NP is like Anti-Army = Anti-fortress = Anti-Nation

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Arash is like the exception to the rule because his NP is like Anti-Army = Anti-fortress = Anti-Nation

Well yeah, there are of course always exceptions to the rule, Fate isn't always 100% accurate with this stuff

The Type Ranking is just a general guideline for NP

For example an A++ Ranked Anti-Fortress NP is stronger than an A++ Ranked Anti-Army NP just because Anti-Fortress>Anti-Army in general

 

[LehenDuo]

I've checked some more things out In terms of power by Type, NP's seemed to be tiered this way

Anti-Unit<Anti-Army<Anti-Fortress<Anti-World

Anti-Worlds aren't > Anti-Fortresses, they are more like Anti-Fortress with added hacks than anything.

''Anti-World Noble Phantasm
The type that Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish belongs to. The actual output of Enuma Elish itself is about the same level or a little higher than Artoria's Excalibur, but it's effect which is unquestionably that of the legend of "ripping the world" puts this sword in a special category. Oh, and the rank is EX. ''

And I would dispute Anti-Units are weaker than Anti-Armies. I recall it being discussed somewhere, Anti-units vs Anti-Armies are about AOE, not about the power, Anti-Fortresses are where power is the difference.

Caliburn is an Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm that when Overloaded, it is Rank A+

Isn't Caliburn Anti-Unit only because of the ''selection of the new king'' effect that allows it to go to a A+?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well I'm not entirely sure about Caliburn outside of Fate Stay Night, I thought that ability mean't that when it is overloaded and held by Artoria, it would be A+, if not and it's a B Rank Anti-Unit NP regularly, then Nine Lives and most NP would scale above Overloaded Calburn

 

[XDragnoir]

Ranks are so weird to me, because I don't think that Ionioi Hetairoi, which is an EX Rank NP scales above Excalibur, an A++ Rank NP in terms of power, it just means that Ionioi Hetairoi is the best level Reality Marble NP, while Excalibur is just a solid Anti-Fortress NP, they're not ranked by power and AP, but by quality of what they are

I mean, Rider never thrown the entire desert in someone's face, i think.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

While we're talking about Noble Phantasm I want to bring up again that Arondight Overload is only an A rank NP, not A++ like Lancelot's profile says. This should really be fixed

On that note could this maybe be used to scale all A rank NPs to 3x Base? Overload should be superior to a regular attack from Arondight which scales from NoS Gawain

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

While we're talking about Noble Phantasm I want to bring up again that Arondight Overload is only an A rank NP, not A++ like Lancelot's profile says. This should really be fixed

On that note could this maybe be used to scale all A rank NPs to 3x Base? Overload should be superior to a regular attack from Arondight which scales from NoS Gawain

That works and makes sense to me, however Noble Phantasms stronger or comparable to Overloaded Caliburn would be at least 5x Base

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Did we decide not to use 7x for Caliburn?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Did we decide not to use 7x for Caliburn?

No, because there is no 7x statement for power

Rin used 4 Jewels to take one of Berserker's lives, Ilya says that an attack with 5x the amount of Jewels would be able to have killed Berserker 6 times, 5x the amount of Jewels means 5x the amount of Mana and therefore 5x the power, Overloaded Caliburn is said have produced an attack that would kill Berserker 7 times, that means it's superior to the 5x the amount Jewels which would have killed Berserker 6 times

The amount of lives that an attack takes isn't where the multiplier comes from, killing Berserker 3 times at once doesn't mean you have 3x the AP, the multiplier comes from the Ilya statement, so therefore Overloaded Caliburn is "At least 5x" Base Stats

 

[Zoey_of_Scadrial]

Well at that time, he was just using Merodach, Gil using just one NP's name would be stronger than just spamming a bunch of NP without using their names, this is 100% consistent with Fate Lore as the True Name of one NP is superior to the might of an infinite number of normal NP, in fact that's the entire point of Shirou vs Gil, that Shirou can match the numerous NP's Gil uses because Gil isn't using the True Names of the swords like every other Servant does, if Shirou used his infinite swords all together against the True Name of one NP, he would lose, that's shown in Shirou vs Angelica, where she flat out wrecks his infinite swords with Enuma Elish

So Overloaded Caliburn>>>Gil's NP Spam

Are you trying to say that activated NPs are High 3-A? I hope that isn't what you are saying.

 

[Schnee_One]

....What about that was High 3A

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Are you trying to say that activated NPs are High 3-A? I hope that isn't what you are saying.

At what point did I say that NP are High 3-A at all... The infinite NP line was a reference to how Shirou said even with infinite swords, he could never match the ultimate sword, that's all, no way do I agree with High 3-A NP

Although that would be cool if it were true

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

At what point did I say that NP are High 3-A at all... The infinite NP line was a reference to how Shirou said even with infinite swords, he could never match the ultimate sword, that's all, no way do I agree with High 3-A NP

Although that would be cool if it were true

maybe with enough out of context scans i could wank it true

 

[ÆONS]

A sword has mass and area -> an infinite number of swords combined have infinite mass and area -> Shirou's reality marble would have to be infinitely sized to host so many swords -> would be larger than the whole universe because it only has finite mass and area ->High Universe level reality marble -> High 3-A Shirou -> High 3-A fate characters -> VS battles matches between Touhou characters and Fate characters -> intentionally blank.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Shirou creates a reality marble with infinite swords, therefore he created a world with infinite space, therefore Shirou is High 3-A

Shirou slaps your favorite verse

 

[LehenDuo]

He technically ''controls'' ''Za Warudo'' and seals it inside a World Egg and replaces it with his inner self, so, it's not all that wrong /s

 

[XDragnoir]

Question, are ranks actually THAT inconsistent? Like, is there a big list of rank inconsistencies somewhere? I don't know any (and by that you can probably see how much my nasuverse knowledge is limited).

 

[Schnee_One]

See the entire thread

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, the thread was mostly about Fortress, Army and Unit NPs, so i didn't notice any inconsistencies related only to ranks.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Gray splitting clouds

Saber splitting clouds

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@XDragnoir

Well it's not entirely that there are many inconsistencies, it's just that there isn't enough support that Ranks themselves are a good power scaling tool, we have no proof of comparison that Nine Lives, which is an A+ Ranked Anti-Unit NP, is on the same level of power as Gawain's A+ Ranked Anti-Army NP, there's no direct comparison of power between these attacks to my knowledge, so I'm iffy on scaling all NP's based on Rank

I mean Brahmastra Kundala and Balmung are both Rank A+ NP, however Brahmastra Kundala is Anti-Country while Balmung is Anti-Army, and it was made clear in the Light Novel that Brahmastra Kundala was superior and Sieg needed to spam Balmung multiple times to keep up with the attack, therefore Same Ranked NP's aren't guaranteed to be equal to each other based solely on Rank, I'm not denying the possiblity of equal NP, if an Anti-Unit NP is shown matching the power of an Anti-Army NP, then I'm fine with scaling the two together

But using Rank alone as the scaling tool seems inaccurate to me

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, different types of NP shouldn't scale to each other even if they are in the same rank, but i don't see a problem with a B Rank Anti-Unit NP with a H7A feat being scaled to all B+ Rank or above Anti-Unit NPs.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Oh I agree scaling by Rank if the NP’s are the same type

 

[Ionliosite]

Wait, which one is the High 7-A feat? Can someone link that calc?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

wasn't their a calc of modred busting a moutain that got High 7-A? happened in camelot but idk if it got put into a blog or not.

i know it was discussed on a thread regarding 6-C Np's

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Excalibur Proto has its own Calc. im not for sure its been put anywhere or considered for anything or if its important
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KamiYasha/Prototype_Saber's_and_Gil's_Ap_and_Speed_Calc

 

[XDragnoir]

Wait, which one is the High 7-A feat? Can someone link that calc?

I used H7A just as an example, but iirc, there is a meteor calc in that tier, Bennu? Something like that.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Asteriod Beenu calc was 1.94107E+23 J

High 7-A

Large Mountain

1 Gigaton to 4.3 Gigatons

10^9 to 4.3x10^9

4.184x101^8 to 1.79912x10^19

4.3x

 

[XDragnoir]

so, it is 6C? Strange, i was sure there was a H7A calc.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

To quote something I mentioned about relationship between Noble Phantasms and Servants:

I believe the most solid relationship between NP and Servant physicals is to backscale Servant durability to x7 weaker than Excalibur.

In the Fate route, Berserker was not confident he can survive Excalibur with just five lives, and according to a bad end, Saber would be able to take Berserker's 6 remaining lives if she had full magical energy. In Heaven's Feel, after Salter killed Berserker four times (one normal attack + 3 Mana Bursts) she used Excalibur Morgan, and Berserker still had a life left to resurrect and get blackened.



Which is 5-7 lives.

It is stated that Caliburn at full potential produces equal power to Excalibur but will break as a result, and Caliburn at full potential had the power to take seven of Berserker's lives.

I believe it would very difficult to refute Tier 6 NPs.

---

As for 5-B Enuma Elish, the 'destroyed mirror world' justification should be nuked, but there are further good support that should be mentioned in the justification.
The 'mirror world' is not Earth-sized as the current justification says, refuted it here:

To be honest, looking at the 'destroy the Mirror World which is as large as earth' feat, it is not legit. There is no statement about a Mirror World that is as large as Earth; there are multiple Mirror World, and each of them clearly have a boundary. A blackened Class Card creates its own Mirror World and the Mirror World gets smaller the less blackened Class Cards there are. Berserker's Class Card is the size of a building only, and Gilgamesh's Card is around the same size.

The F/sF aftermath crater (which should yield low-mid Tier 6) does not reflect Enuma Elish's full power, as it is stated in the light novel that while Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish was ripping the world apart, Enkidu's Enuma Elish which was stitching the world together. It is also stated that the energies of the two Noble Phantasms cancelled each other out, and that the dissipated energy dispersed into the surrounding.

---

Anyway, so here are further justification for 5-B Enuma Elish:

• The Prisma materials call Ea a "planet creating weapon"

Spoiler: kaleid liner Prisma Illya

Enuma Elish: Star of Creation that Separated Sky and Earth: EX
Not exactly the Noble Phantasm name but refers to the sword of separation Ea’s full release form. It is considered the planet creating weapon that in the distant past separated the sky and earth. Through compression via alternating inversion a windstorm beyond human understanding faults, dislocating space and time pulverizing the target along with the world.

• Fate/Zero says that Ea is capable of creating the miracle of genesis by creating heaven and earth from shapeless and meaningless primordial chaos.

Spoiler: F/Z

Called by this name, the Sword of Rupture was the primordial sword present at the creation of the world in the Age of Gods. The role the blade of the beginning accomplished - it was nothing short of that which had cut apart what had been shapeless into Heaven and Earth, what had given a definitive shape to that distinction.

Before that one blade was swung, all things were nothing more than chaos which could not form any meaning -

After that one blade was swung, a new truth divided and distinguished Heaven, Sea, and Earth.

The released tumult of genesis was no longer in the realm of an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm. It was an irregularity that broke down not only that which possessed shape, but all of creation. That was the true form of the anti-world Noble Phantasm that made the King of Heroes transcendent.

Heaven fell, Earth broke; within the darkness where everything returned to nothingness, only Archer's Sword of Rupture shone with brilliance. The dazzling light continued to complete the destruction, like a star of creation, the first thing illuminating the new world.

• Fate/strange Fake says that Ea is the pure manifestation of the power of gods to enact genesis, and defines genesis as the beginning of all on a planet.

Spoiler: F/sF

It hailed from an era more ancient than humans, older than even the planet itself.

It was a rarity among rarities, a pure manifestation of the power wielded by gods to enact Genesis.

It was the beginning of all on this planet. It was that which clove apart Heaven and Earth.

It rent the void and created the sky, then pierced the sky and returned it to the void.

This power symbolized the Beginning and the End, and only Gilgamesh, who inherited the essence of the gods, was permitted to wield it.

Therefore, when Gilgamesh swung the sword with all his might, it was defined as...

Anti-world Noble Phantasm.

• Ea is called the most powerful Noble Phantasm possessed by humanity, which makes it more powerful than Excalibur which is made to defeat planet-ending threats, and it is considered equal to Enkidu's Anti-Purge Enuma Elish which is a counter to threats that can destroy the planet; when Enkidu used Enuma Elish in F/sF he asked the planet to not hold back against Gilgamesh.

 

[LehenDuo]

The Prisma materials call Ea a "planet-creating weapon"

No, it actually doesn't, it calls Ea ''a planet-made weapon'', being a Divine Construct, the same thing with Excalibur. The expression is used in the CE for Divine Construct/some CE with Excalibur. Calling it ''planet-creating'' is a translation error.

The rest of justifications really only reference Enuma Elish hack-like capacities, mostly. Yeah, Ea is directly called equal to or slightly more powerful than Excalibur, but that would put it nowhere near Tier 5.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Except that Ea was created by an unknown god, not by a planet, and that Ea existed before planet Earth, so the proposed alternative translation is incompatible with lore.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Being the most powerful NP, and stronger than Excalibur, could justify it being 2-A. Considering Excalibur's true power is that high and we've got other powerful NPs like Vasavi Shakti that I would think are at least slightly weaker

 

[LehenDuo]

Except that Ea was created by an unknown god, not by a planet, and that Ea existed before planet Earth, so the proposed alternative translation is incompatible with lore.

And Excalibur is a Divine Construct, but was also ''made by the planet inner sea'', not by a god or anything we would normally call divine. Which, by itself, is actually weird (as in, for us to interpret it), because what we consider divine/god and what ''kami'' can mean aren't exactly the same thing.

The point is that it's not written ''planet-creating''.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ea has like "Eventually 5-B range with durability negating hax" i see it more as range of its haxed ability rather than raw attack potency*

still that gawain feat in Last Encore

 

[LehenDuo]

Ea has like "Eventually 5-B range with durability negating hax" i see it more as range of its haxed ability rather than raw attack potency*

still that gawain feat in Last Encore

Which is strange, because at least as far as I know, Attack Potency exists to be compared to Durability, if it Dura Negs, Attack Potency is literally useless. But could be wrong on the exact applications of the rules of the wikia.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

A Divine Construct, as defined by FGO, is an armament created by a god or a being of equal power.
In Ea's case, it is outright stated that it is created by a god, which rules planets out.

Yes, it was no longer a sword. Something born before the appearance of the concept that this world called a "sword" can't possibly have the shape of a known sword. It was something constructed by a God before humans. It was the actualization of the works of a God recorded at the beginning of the world. ~Fate/Zero

---

Tesla has a durability negating hax NP that can destroy the continent of America, I believe that the way it is rated is consistent with how Ea is rated.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I do know on the wiki in some instances if a character only has Hax, there hax can be used as an AP (it goes something like that) BB is this way

 

[LehenDuo]

A Divine Construct, as defined by FGO, is an armament created by a god or a being of equal power.
In Ea's case, it is outright stated that it is created by a god, which rules planets out.

The fact is that it is called 星造兵装.

And being made by a God really doesn't rule planets out, as most Gods are literally just terminals of the planet, or elementals, just as much as fairies or anything else...