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Nasuverse Discussion Board 16

As Ever told me this on Skype:

"He has literally no feats of that, all we have is him saying he's higher-dimensional."
 
Also, would this not rate Goetia higher or Kiara lower?

"Yes, Goetia was certainly a Beast possessing great power. But that was only in terms of "strength". He was a Beast who could only destroy. My power is weak and still immature as a Beast, but human consciousness is quite fickle and fragile."

-Kiara when talking about Goetia's.
 
Kiara needs to be downgraded. Her powers aren't based around raw power like Goetia is, and her physical stats can't be compared especially when she is a new born Beast. Her powers when matured are considered a solar system threat so we can still have her be tier 4 with powers separate from physical stats same with CCC Kiara who is stronger than her Beast version.
 
I still remember this talk a while back. CCC Kiara would be flat 4-B, FGO Beast Kiara would probably something like 5-A physically and 4-B with...however we'll describe it?
 
I don't see how Beat Kiara can't be 5-A / High 4-C / 4-B based on her own feats. Her being an infantile beast doesn't mean that her feats don't apply.
 
@Matt Your proposal being?

Coming from someone who doesn't involve himself with Fate, I'm curious as to what kind of idea you have in mind...
 
Your one line comments are hard to understand. Again seeing as this is coming from you, a non-Fate person, I want to know why you think of this.
 
Because per Kiara's own admission, Goetia is stronger than her. So why shouldn't he be upgraded and not the other way around?
 
Much better, even if it is one line as I've observed for a while.

Funnily enough, Ever told me on Skype that Goetia MIGHT be 4-B. But I would like this to a group topic seeing as there's still plenty of Fate stuff to revise around.
 
Kek, LET'S GO BOI'S~

But seriously I don't want to get into a whole "Non Fate Matt vs Fate peeps" thing or so I've heard (WTF kind of title I made there kek) so I would, again, do prefer we have a proper revision thread on Kiara regarding her status as being lower than Goetia...or Goetia being stronger than here IDEFK.

There's also revisions for more stuff now that we're all done with Part 1 like Tiamat so there's that to come.
 
The reason I think Kiara should be downgraded in terms of physical stats is because her powers is what makes her a threat to the solar system when fully matured not her physical strength or firepower. She even explains that she is weak as a Beast but her mental stuff makes her powerful in the same quote when she hypes Goetia as being far above her in power.

"Err, Demon God King Goetia…-san, was it? Yes, Goetia was certainly a Beast possessing great power. But that was only in terms of "strength". He was a Beast who could only destroy.

My power is weak and still immature as a Beast, but human consciousness is quite fickle and fragile—

No matter what kind of intelligent lifeform they are, beings with wisdom always possess "desire", and my fingers can grasp their souls.

Any being that possesses desire cannot match me."
 
In-Game ver:

"Mountain Range-Shaking Firewood of Venus

Rank: A++

Type: Anti-Mountai

An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē.

The most "devastating" and "brutal" deed that Ishtar carried out in Sumerian mythology— The anecdote of trampling down and annihilating the Sacred Mountain Ebih (which even the king of gods feared and respected) "just because I didn't like it", turned into a Noble Phantasm.

According to Mesopotamian mythology, Ishtar forced her way into Mt. Ebih, increasing her divine might with each step, and in the end grabbed a hold of the mountain range's summit and thrusted a spear on the central part of its leyline, causing the Ebih mountain range to collapse.

Based on such an anecdote, she pulls off a deed that even Gods fear: upon employing the Noble Phantasm, she warps to Venus and takes possession of its concept by means of management rights, loading it and firing it from Maanna's magazine as a conceptual planet.

Also called Jebel Hamrin Breaker."

Beast-Lair Mats translation of Ishtar's NP:

"An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē: Mountain Range-Shaking Firewood of Venus

Rank: A++

Type: Anti-Mountai

Range: 999~???

Maximum Number of Targets: ???

An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē; it means "from the great heavens towards the great earth." In Sumerian Mythology, it is the most "devastating" and "atrocious" deed that Ishtar carried outÒâ╝Òâ╝Òâ╝Òâ╝from her anecdote of trampling down and annihilating the Sacred Mountain Ebih, which was revered and feared even by the King of Gods, "simply because I am displeased with it." Ishtar forced her way into Mount Ebih, increasing her heavenly might with each step, and in the end, she grabbed a hold of the mountain range's summit and thrusted her spear into the heart of the leyline, causing the Ebih mountain range to collapse. Another name for this is the Jabal Hamrin Breaker.

While in the middle of her Noble Phantasm, she warps to Venus; however, this is not the Venus in the outer space of the modern era's, but rather, the Venus in the outer space during the time of the age of mythology. Afterwards, grabbing (the concept of) Venus and loading it onto her bow as a bullet, the Venus Blaster shoots this Venus that had been turned into a bullet towards the Earth (surface), and from another person's perspective, it casually warps into the modern era's airspace through the utilization of displacement magecraft. The mountain range that was a nuisance to others, even to the Earth and to Venus, is accordingly destroyed by this Venus."

-Yup, I wonder why...

But apparently just cuz I brought up Kiara, we got to have two topics of question rn.
 
While I won't deliberately put out any bad names here towards Matthew, well beyond calling him a "non-Fate" person, and also because I don't want to get banned outta some petty reasoning when one of the things I came here for was to try and make sure all Fate profiles are about as accurate as they could get, I am just completely amazed that the NP rating is blown beyond what Ishtar's own info from both her game and mats.

I even highlighted it and both sources aren't made up. As a matter of fact, that's a reason why I haven't even done anything cuz chances are, Matt's just going to undo it and lock her page even.
 
Right...

You know another funny thing is, ALRF even agrees about Kiara's being mental rather than something physical. And I think he told me he tried to make a thread about it. Just putting that out there, though this was like a while back but he might still have the same opinion. I might ask him about it when he comes back, though keep in mind it's just going to be me just asking him and nothing more as he's not focusing on Fate atm.

GDI you, Kiara...GDI...
 
It's clear there's some kind of mental component given how the damage is dependent on intelligence, but it'd be nice to see anything actually call it a mental attack/illusion, while establishing that the visuals aren't literal.

Meanwhile the attack clearly makes reference to concepts of Buddhism and the size and scale of a being like Kiara.
 

The reason why this attack's power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver.
People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.
Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (1060) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (1068) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha.
The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. In Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm.
This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters.
India had this stuff figured out over 2000 years ago? Holy crap!
In the initial design phase of the game I submitted some paperwork describing this Noble Phantasm. I thought there would be no way that this gets by CERO untouched, but surprisingly enough it did.
I still have no idea how this was able to make it past them.
It's clearly not an illusion.
 
I'm not really going to say anything about that seeing as it'll be a long discussion.

What I will say for Ishtar again, at least in this particular moment seeing as I myself brought her up, the attack speed for it looks pretty alright if she's going to Venus. The attack power of it, however, I don't exactly sit well with.

But again I don't want to edit anything of it beyond its NP description cuz hey, someone here's an admin with a green nametag and they can do WHATEVER THEY WANT, including undoing edits and locking a page even if it doesn't sit well with them despite what the actual official sources say.

Edit: But I'm not going to say anymore with this. Guess the only proper way would be to do a thread, which I'll do later about it. Not the Kiara one cuz ooooh...getting into heatedness there.
 
@Matt The first part of the entry clearly explains that it's an Mental Attack.

"It is a vortex of pleasure that melts all sentient beings, and digests their "life" in an instant. While in reality it all happens in an instant, but it feels like an eternity of pleasure. Regardless of how different the structure of a beings intelligence may be, this vortex affects all without exception. It is not a Noble Phantasm that is limited to affect only those on Earth. The damage increases if certain conditions are met. If the target is of the opposite sex, the damage increases. The more intelligent a being is, the more damage it does."

A separate Mats entry says the same thing

"Turning into the floodgates of all the desires of humanity, she ushers the souls of people into her body by Code Cast Banshokuyuutai and creates a whirl of billions of pleasure. The whirl of pleasure melts sapient beings and transforms their lives into the sublime in the twinkling of an eye. It is the birth of an ephemeral but eternal Land of Bliss. This whirl of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a noble phantasm limited to the Earth."

The part you are referencing talks about Kiara being close to Saver (a solar system level being) which is the reason the attack's damage, scale and visuals is so huge. It doesn't say that she literally grows that big, it's only a visual to show her taking in a planet's pleasure to melt her target with. The reason Buddhist concepts are talked about is to further convey the scale of Bodhisattvas.
 
A scale which is on the size of a solar system, nothing about the attack having mental effects necessarily excludes it also having great physical power.
 
No it's not, nothing about any description explicitely states it is purely mental and has no physical effects whatsoever.
 
@Matt: Yes. I edited my comment earlier to say that I will post the Ishtar thing to a thread to settle there.

Ofc considering we're literally about two days (or three?) from New Years eve, I would rather whatever we talked here can be come to rest for the time being until after the new year passes over, then we can resume it.
 
"The anti-planetary Noble Phantasm of reborn Kiara. The most heinous of Noble Phantasms, which uses the Earth for masturbation. It's an Authority which lets her gain the greatest of sensations and grow by offering her body to and embracing all life left on Earth - humans, animals, plants. The nature of this is similar to a certain man-made demon who had once been made into the object of demonization to prove the evil of humanity and turned into a sacrifice. This vortex of pleasure melts all things with sapience, subliming their lives in a brief instant. It's the birth of an ephemeral but eternal Land of Bliss. This vortex of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a Noble Phantasm limited to the Earth. It has a special effect of doing more damage in certain conditions, the damage increasing if it's used on the opposite sex, and the higher the intelligence the greater the damage."

"Turning into the floodgates of all the desires of humanity, she ushers the souls of people into her body by Code Cast Banshokuyuutai and creates a whirl of billions of pleasure. The whirl of pleasure melts sapient beings and transforms their lives into the sublime in the twinkling of an eye. It is the birth of an ephemeral but eternal Land of Bliss. This whirl of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a noble phantasm limited to the Earth."

As you see it's literally Kiara using her Authority to take in the pleasure of a planet to melt her target. There are no mentions of any physical effects, it even talks about how the intelligence of the target affects the damage that is done.
 
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