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Nasuverse Discussion Board 10

Come to think of it, how does Da Vinci's statement in EOR (that no Noble Phantasm has the power to destroy the planet) affect the AP of Servants like Karna and Gil, who have Planet-level AP and higher? Purely talking about Servant versions, and not Heroic Spirit/In-Life keys here.

Also, is anyone making or planning to make a profile for Okada Izou? His ability to instantly copy sword techniques like Tsubame Gaeshi and Mumyou Sandanzuki at a glance is really interesting. If not, I may or may not get to it once we get more info on him; if that isn't against some rule I haven't read.
 
@Solacis

We don't take Da Vinci's statement into account.

Ea has multiple planet busting feats, Enuma Elish is considered its equal, and Vasavi Shakti is a weapon used by a high-tier Divine Spirit to kill other Divine Spirits.

Izou explicitly cannot copy other Mystic Sword Techniques like Tsubame Gaeshi, since his own technique is a Mystic Sword Technique in and of itself.
 
I'm sorry, but Ea has never busted a planet, and what it does isn't 'planetbusting'. And there's no reason to discard Da Vinci's statement considering that she is probably one of the most knowledgeable persons in Chaldea.
 
@Regis

Fate/strange fake says that it would have ripped the world apart if not for Enkidu's own Enuma Elish. The divine harlot explicitly states that Enkidu's and Gilgamesh's last battle seemed to destroy and recreate the world seven times.

It obliterated the Mirror World Reality Marble in Prisma Illya.

In Fate/Extra CCC he fights BB and Kiara.

No planet busting feats my ass.
 
Except that world in Nasuverse =/= planet. The Earth in Nasuverse is covered in several layers of reality, like a onion. At the top is what people perceive as Earth, followed by stuff like the Far Side and finally the planet itself. Ea when activated peels off the layers by destroying them to show the Truth. It never actually destroys the actual planet. Hence its tag as Anti-World, not Anti-Planet and why it's super effective against Reality Marbles, which are unstable mental worlds projected into reality.


Kiara isn't actually masturbating with the Earth, despite what you think.
 
@Regis

"The entire universe that had been compressed beyond limit focused around Ea, and was released by its wielder's slash. The resulting pressure wave sundered the nearby space. The World itself was sucked up by the chasm of the Void, and turned inside out. Who would believe that this scene was caused by the swing of a sword? The Void emerged from the chasm, rupturing space further. The World eroded, giving way to countless fissures in reality. The sands cracked like clay. The sky and clouds were shredded like so much paper. It was a hellish landscape, as if a painting of the desert had been thrown into a blender. The "slash" of the sword twisted and tore the planet, sending a wave of destruction at the Heroic Spirit standing on the ground."

It still would have ripped the planet asunder either way, so it's definitely Planet level. Akhilleus Kosmos is also stated to project an entire world, but it would be destroyed by an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

Kiara's Noble Phantasm animation indicates otherwise along with all of the key visuals. The official database entry explicitly states that she's using the Earth for masturbation.

"This is the anti-planetary Noble Phantasm Kiara gains after her reincarnation. Angra Mainyu is the most self-serving heinous Noble Phantasm of them all where Kiara uses the world to **********."
 
Flowery language is a thing, and overall it did nothing much to the planet. It wouldn't have destroyed the planet as A: Servants in general do not have that kind of firepower as they are limited by being Servants, B: Ea hasn't come close to doing what you think it can in any work, and C: there are also other forces preventing Servants from pulling it off, hence Moriarty's failed attempt to try in Shinjuku, where such factors didn't really matter, and it still wouldn't have worked.

Again, miniature worlds like Kosmos/RM =/= planet.

Kiara's NP visuals =/= what is actually happening.

'It is a vortex of pleasure that melts all sentient beings, and digests their "life" in an instant. While in reality it all happens in an instant, but it feels like an eternity of pleasure. Regardless of how different the structure of a beings intelligence may be, this vortex affects all without exception. It is not a Noble Phantasm that is limited to affect only those on Earth. The damage increases if certain conditions are met. If the target is of the opposite sex, the damage increases. The more intelligent a being is, the more damage it does. As far as the setting and lore are concerned, the Servant who would be hit with the least damage would be Archer, and Gilgamesh would be damaged the most. (Extra material)'

Visuals =/= actual events.
 
I'm going to let the others weigh in on this because I feel like our argument is going to go in circles.
 
Yes, because ignoring credible statements and translations in favour of headcanon and misinterpretations 'isn't' nonsense. And it's not like Ea has shown anything to support such assumptions.
 
You are dismissing statements about Ea, using an argument "flowery language", yet accepting Da Vinci's statements as absolute truth. I didn't know Da Vinci is some kind of omniscient being in Fate, who knows absolutely everything.

You are losing credibility, from my perspective, right from the start by doing this.
 
There are no such statements for Ea which calls it a planet buster, which you haven't shown either.

Da Vinci may not be an omniscient being, but she, like Roman and Sherlock are incredibly knowledgeable about the functions of magecraft, Servants etc due to being able to see and understand such events. Da Vinci is the one making comparisons between Servant NPs and the Lion King's Rhon to numerically indicate the strength of the Lion King while Sherlock travels through time to find out why the Singularities are happening.

Da Vinci, Sherlock, etc is also how Nasu gives info apart from profiles and materials books, info which is also plot relevant due to the topics of discussion at the time. Notably, neither are shown to be wrong.

Of course, I suppose using facts makes me less credible than people who can't understand the text and refuse to use accurate translations from credible sites.
 
John985 said:
Solacis said:
Also, is anyone making or planning to make a profile for Okada Izou? His ability to instantly copy sword techniques like Tsubame Gaeshi and Mumyou Sandanzuki at a glance is really interesting. If not, I may or may not get to it once we get more info on him; if that isn't against some rule I haven't read.
Click to expand...

There's a profile of Izou though.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Assassin_(Okada_Izō)
Click to expand...
That... was not there last I checked. Huh.

@Repp

Actually, folks at Beast Lair specifically said that the Mystic Sword restriction has been more or less removed. Izou can now use techniques like Tsubame Gaeshi and Mumyou, at least on the surface, but there's a certain "essence" that can't be replicated.

As an example, Munenori's Kenzen Ichinyo. Munenori developed Kenzen from his achieving a state of zen-like enlightenment to perform a slash. If Izou were to copy it, he'd perform the effects of the slash perfectly, but he wouldn't somehow achieve the same enlightenment that the slash was developed from. He'd copy the movements in the technique and achieve the same effect (so long as the technique is explicitly a technique, and not a product of some magical or inhuman abilities), but he wouldn't copy the mastery and knowledge that came with said technique, so if the two clashed, the original would win out.
 
On the argument about Ea... I admittedly am leaning towards Regis' argument here. Not completely, but the point is valid. Unless Ea has specifically destroyed a physical planet, I personally can't accept it as a physical planet buster. Sure it works on a planetary scale, but in terms of raw destructive power, it's never actually destroyed the physical planet.

Nasu, and by extension every Fate-series writer after him, has a really bad habit of using the word "World" when referring to the established planet-wide Reality Marble. He makes it a point ot differentiate "planet" with "world", in that the former is exactly what it sounds like, and the latter is whatever Reality Marble is relevant at the moment.

To cite the same text that Repp did:

"The entire universe that had been compressed beyond limit focused around Ea, and was released by its wielder's slash. The resulting pressure wave sundered the nearby space. The World itself was sucked up by the chasm of the Void, and turned inside out. Who would believe that this scene was caused by the swing of a sword? The Void emerged from the chasm, rupturing space further. The World eroded, giving way to countless fissures in reality. The sands cracked like clay. The sky and clouds were shredded like so much paper. It was a hellish landscape, as if a painting of the desert had been thrown into a blender. The "slash" of the sword twisted and tore the planet, sending a wave of destruction at the Heroic Spirit standing on the ground."

This is flowery language. That the first sentence mentions the entire universe being compressed and focused around Ea makes it clear, since Ea is explicitly not galaxy-level, much less universal. This is on the same level as the final battle of EOR3, where Musashi and Kojirou were described to fight for an eternity with their slashes numbering infinite, when all that was really happening was a really intense exchange between two evenly-matched swordsmen.

Quoted directly from Fate/complete material II:

"The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called "Enuma Elish", and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur."

The destructive power is one thing, separate from the ability to unravel the World (Reality Marbles) to reveal the Truth (what's under the RM, in Gaia's case, the physical planet). The Anti-World designation is granted based on the ability to dismantle Reality Marbles, not the ability to bust a physical planet. It also explains why Beast II had to be weakened even after King Hassan destroyed its immortality, before Gilgamesh brought out Ea; as opposed to just pulling it out as soon as the immortality was gone.

Frankly, the only in-universe people to actually describe the effects of Ea through narration or dialogue are people who can only go by what they've seen (Shirou, Waver, etc.). Da Vinci explicitly states, while referring to a key plot point in EOR1, that no NP can destroy the planet, even those designated as Anti-World. Da Vinci, along with Romani and Sherlock, are the people used to deliver information that explains in-universe events; so their words hold a lot of weight. Hell, Goetia flat-out states that Ars Almadel Salomonis can only manage to pierce through the planet, as opposed to blow it up.

While I'm fine either way, in the interests of accuracy to the lore, I don't consider Ea to be a planet-buster, as opposed to just having planetary range for its effect, unless someone can refer me to a time that Ea explicitly destroyed a physical planet.
 
Yeah, I agree with Solacis and Regis. I don't really care if Ea ends up being downgraded or not, but i personally don't think it's planet level. Though before things escalate any further i'd like to make two corrections:

1. There is no such thing as a planet-wide Reality Marble. Like Regis said, the Earth in the Nasuverse has multiple layers of reality, the Reverse Side of the World being one, but they are not Reality Marbles. Reality Marbles are, once again like Regis said, unstable mental worlds forcefully imposed into the topmost layer of the planet. "Gaia's Reality Marble" is fanon and needs to die.

2. Tiamat wasn't weakened any further after King Hassan did his thing (which was more than just giving her the concept of death btw, he also cut off her wings, destroyed her remaining horn and downgraded her Saint Graph to the level of a normal Servant), Gil just wasn't there yet to finish her off. He already had Ea in hand when he finally showed up.
 
1. If Enkidu wasn't there to use his Enuma Elish, the planet would be destroyed. It's quite simple.

2. You are using one sentence out of the whole description. That sentence could be a reference to Sumerian creation of the universe (splitting of Heavens and Earth), since Ea is the thing that split Heavens and Earth.

3. Other things have already been discussed. Personally, the only time I'd compare AAS to Enuma Elish would be when I'm drunk, and that's a maybe. Blah blah "Anti-reality marble weapon" is what we should call it. I've first seen this argument on Reddit, some 3 years ago. I see it's still being used.

4. A weapon with a planetary range of effect, with an effect that devours space, cracks reality, (whatever description you want to use), cannot destroy a planet would be equivalent to saying that a fire, which envelops an entire piece of paper, can't turn that piece of paper to ashes.
 
So... are we just going to ignore multiple Noble Phantasm feats in the face of da Vinci's statement?

Like Ars Almadel Salomonis having enough heat to burn a hole through the planet before the actual energy beam is taken into account? Or the fact that the sheer energy it produces by frying human history exceeds that of the creation of Earth?

Quetzalcoatl becoming the literal sun as part of Piedra del Sol?

Or Ishtar firing the concept of a planet as a projectile?
 
Ishtarin firing Venus Concept doesn't do planet buster damage though?

Quetz doesn't become the Sun she pulls out a portion of her Sun God Authority. It should be downgraded.
 
Reppuzan said:
Like Ars Almadel Salomonis having enough heat to burn a hole through the planet before the actual energy beam is taken into account? Or the fact that the sheer energy it produces by frying human history exceeds that of the creation of Earth?
Click to expand...
Was not the energy required to use ars almadel solomonis equal to the birth of a star? I remember the goetia citing something like that.
 
@Ram

I concede on the Quetz point, but I still don't see how firing the concept of a planet is anything less than Planet level.
 
What defines a concept that makes it equal to its name? Why even immediately Planet level? Legit question.

For example, I can take the concept of Matou Shinji, "the paradox of being a big dick... with a small wiener" and throw it at the opponent. Am I Shinji level? Am I big dick level? Or am I small wiener level?

Seriously though, Akhileus Kosmos is a bounded field that represents the world as going against it is going against the world, and yet was mutually destroyed in its clash with Vasavi Shakti which is anti-country. That, and it is said to be equal to OG Rho Aias, that we see EMIYA identify as one that has seven petals, each representing a castle wall.
 
@Gemmy

Vasavi Shakti isn't Anti-Country. It's Anti-Divine, as in it's designed to kill other Divine Spirits who can enact planetary reality warping with ease.

It's also heavily implied to be able to kill Sefar, which threatens the Moon Cell.
 
Vasavi Shakti doesn't just kill Divine Spirits, it can kill Kamigami who are>>>Divine Spirits.

@Reppu The way I understand it is, because her Np is not firing Venus, it's the recreation of her legend of destroying a mountain range. Thus even though she fires a conceptual planet, all it does is destroying a mountain/mountain range because it's the recreation of her doing it. Hence the A++ Anti-Mountain rating.
 
The potential for some noble phantasms to annihilate the planet could possibly exist. However, even if that were possible, the counter force and other systems were put in place to prevent something like that from occuring. We don't exactly know how these systems work, but it doesn't necessarily disprove the fact that there are beings on earth who can destroy the planet.

Gilgamesh potentially being able to destroy the planet remains to be seen. The only time he has ever used a 'serious' version of it on earth was when he was facing Enkidu, who he specifically knows to have a counter for his own attack. Thus, he didn't exactly have to worry about destroying the world.
 
The thing with the Da Vinci statement is that it doesn't refer exactly as:

-Yo, no matter who the Top Servant is, no one can destroy the planet.

It's taken out of context, they were talking about the whole thing with Moriarty trying to destroy the world, what Da Vinci meant was:

-Anyone born on earth can't destroy it, not because they lack of power, because the planet (gaia) wouldn't allow it. The counter force would prevent that from happening.

In Moriarty case...he doesn't have the power to destroy a planet, leave alone be a top servant, just with the help of 1 of the 72 demon's of solomon + plot and what not...he was going to destroy the planet in a "culled" universe (where gaia, nor the counter force exist)

However! Here is the thing, the times Gil has fought someone (serious), who was that again? Enkidu, Enkidu through his Np pours power directly from the Counter Force.

Counter force doesn't need to act, if someone is using their energy for the sake of protecting the planet.

And without a doubt Age of Gods Enkidu>>>>Servant Enkidu.

Da Vinci: To begin with, even if you release the full power of a Top Servant's Noble Phantasm, it still can't completely destroy the planet.

Da Vinci: Anti-Planetary (or Anti-Star in some translations) Noble Phantasm...even if such a thing existed...According to calculations it's still not possible to destroy this planet.

>Even if such thing existed.

K'
 
So basically, Da Vinci didn't know Anti-World NPs existed. End of story.

Thanks for the context, Kami.
 
Sorry Kami, but that's just wrong. You're telling me that your assumptions as someone who didn't write the story nor can read it w/o translations are more reliable than evidence clearly given via in-universe sources and credible translations?

Basically the points are that Servants can't bust a planet as they're not strong enough (which makes sense since they're Servants, limited fractions of Heroic Spirits), and if something was strong enough to do so, unknown forces would stop them.
 
Da Vinci at that point has already seen Ea at full power, so saying she didn't know about it wouldn't fly even if the text said Anti-World. She has also seen An Gal Ta Kigal She too, btw.
 
@Regis

Your insistence that Servants can't destroy planets is still contradicted by Noble Phantasms like Ars Almadel Salomonis, which are explicitly stated to be able to bore a hole through a planet with the heat of the attack alone.

Angra Mainyu/CCC is also explicitly stated to be an anti-planetary Noble Phantasm.

Ea was also stated to be tearing away at the planet and Vasavi Shakti can kill Divine Spirits.
 
Except that AAS was being used by Goetia, not Solomon who's both a Servant and from Earth. It's also stated that Ea is far above top tier NPs like it and Excalibur, so the point still stands.

Ea doesn't tear away at the planet, that's just what Tine thinks. She does not know that what humans consider as Earth is just one layer/carpet of reality on Earth, which is what was being torn apart. Again Anti-Planetary/etc represents the scope of the NP, what areas they affect, not how strong they are.
 
It's not contradicted by anything. Goetia is not a Servant and neither was Kiara when she could use Angra Mainyu/CCC. Not to mention that piercing a hole through the planet is not planet level at all, either.

Tearing away at the planet doesn't mean it can destroy it entirely and Vasavi Shakti killing divine spirits can easily be explained by Divine Spirits not being planet level to begin with.

Not to mention that Divine Spirits have gigantic differences in power level. Stheno and Euryale are Divine Spirits. The Lion King is also a Divine Spirit. Saver is also a Divine Spirit. I don't think i need to say how big the difference in power between each of them is. Vasavi Shakti being able to kill the Lion King does not mean it's able to kill Saver, and Karna could kill the Gorgon twins with a goddamn finger flick.
 
@NEH

Ars Almadel Salomonis is not Goetia's Noble Phantasm. It's Solomon's.

Planetary-level Reality Warping isn't Planet level. Are you sure?

Vasavi Shakti is used to kill Sefar, who heavily threatened the Moon Cell, in Karna's sidestory in Extella. It's also the weapon of Indra, who is the "King of Gods" in Hindu Mythology. Comparing him to Stheno and Euryale, who were born as helpless goddesses, is dishonest.
 
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