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Naruto's cosmology has been Low 2-C since the classic.

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Red

Red

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The principle used when shaping the chakra is to connect the spiritual and physical energy, so that the potential of the technique to be used is constantly increased, causing them to be on the same harmonic plane, which is consistent with the quote that chakra has the power to connect the two worlds (physical world and spiritual world). What makes the ninjutsu/genjutsu used have a greater performance in its execution, therefore, it is wrong to say that a genjutsu is a non-existent structure in the physical world and that it is connected to the material plane; being a logic demonstrated since the beginning of the manga, where Tayuya's Genjutsu possessed spiritual energy by factor of being an ethereal being, and feeds on the spiritual energy that forms the target's chakra.

"those two energy are brought from the body and the spirit"
--
"If you don't keep the balance, it doesn't matter the technique"
--
"translation of: mind, spirit, soul"

"Chakra has the power to connect the two worlds"

And based on this, Tsukuyomi is a comprehensive dimension of space-time and gravity, where the user who creates and exercises the jutsu, has control of the totality of it, where there are quotes in the work itself and in the databook of this technique that strengthen this same quote.

prnt.sc

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot
prnt.sc prnt.sc
 
So, going by this premise where the Chakra that forms Genjutsu proves to be on the same harmonic plane as the physical energy, it is wrong to try to argue it is merely an immaterial / illusory structure.
Click to expand...

You might have a point... but why should we buy into that premise in the first place? It is portrayed purely as an illusion.
 
Tsukuyomi is a purely mental technique, just like all genjutsu.
When Izumi lived out the rest of her life within the Jutsu, she was said to have died because her mind died, not her body. Her body followed afterwards because you can't survive your mind dying.
Likewise, when Kakashi was hit with the technique, he suffered physical ailments only due to the mental trauma. The technique has no apparent physical effects at all, and is purely mental in nature.
 
Damage3245 said:
You might have a point... but why should we buy into that premise in the first place? It is portrayed purely as an illusion.
Click to expand...
In my previous post it is made clear that the Chakra that forms the Genjutsu is made through the combination of spiritual energy (physical world) and physical energy (physical world), so much so that both are mentioned being on the same harmonic plane. Moreover, it is cited to be mere illusion not in the sense of something immaterial, but to be generated through the mind, so much so that this is the logical concept of TS (seen several times in the story where it incites that he creates parallel worlds based on the dreams of those who are caught).
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Tsukuyomi is a purely mental technique, just like all genjutsu.
When Izumi lived out the rest of her life within the Jutsu, she was said to have died because her mind died, not her body. Her body followed afterwards because you can't survive your mind dying.
Likewise, when Kakashi was hit with the technique, he suffered physical ailments only due to the mental trauma. The technique has no apparent physical effects at all, and is purely mental in nature.
Click to expand...
Obviously a solely mental structure, right? So much so that in canonical movies like RTN itself, Naruto and Sakura being transported to the parallel world of obito's Tsukuyomi are nowhere to be found in their "ordinary" universe, besides returning to it with physical injuries. It is meaningless to consider.
Furthermore, itachi's TS follows the conventional logic of any genjutsu, like Tayuya's own, which affects the Physical World by sucking chakra from the target, shikamaru himself was PHYSICALLY injured by being touched by such.

Besides, the TS used on Kakashi didn't even have destructive power that actually left him with visible injuries.
 
Even if I were to steelman the idea that Itachi is, as opposed to just creating a mind trick/illusion, creating a whole nother world, for it to be considered low 2-c it would need to be universal in size.

How big is it? planet sized? City sized?

But even I ignored even those standards, do you have any idea how inconsistent that would be for the show's scaling?
So yeah there is no way I'll agree, nor is there any way this thread will be passed
 
Red said:
Obviously a solely mental structure, right? So much so that in canonical movies like RTN itself, Naruto and Sakura being transported to the parallel world of obito's Tsukuyomi are nowhere to be found in their "ordinary" universe, besides returning to it with physical injuries. It is meaningless to consider.
Click to expand...
Hate to break it to ya, but RtN is not canon.
And the technique Obito used to create the parallel universe in that movie has nothing to do with Itachi's Tsukuyomi, but rather an incomplete version of the IT if memory serves. Regardless, you can't use that because the movie isn't canon unfortunately.
Red said:
Furthermore, itachi's TS follows the conventional logic of any genjutsu, like Tayuya's own, which affects the Physical World by sucking chakra from the target, shikamaru himself was PHYSICALLY injured by being touched by such.
Click to expand...
You're confused. Tayuya's golems are the ones that absorb chakra. Her genjutsu only paralyses its victims.
Red said:
Besides, the TS used on Kakashi didn't even have destructive power that actually left him with visible injuries.
Click to expand...
No genjutsu ever left its victims with visible injuries because, again, they're mental illusionary techniques.
 
Red said:
Obviously a solely mental structure, right? So much so that in canonical movies like RTN itself, Naruto and Sakura being transported to the parallel world of obito's Tsukuyomi are nowhere to be found in their "ordinary" universe, besides returning to it with physical injuries. It is meaningless to consider.
Furthermore, itachi's TS follows the conventional logic of any genjutsu, like Tayuya's own, which affects the Physical World by sucking chakra from the target, shikamaru himself was PHYSICALLY injured by being touched by such.

Além disso, o TS usado em Kakashi nem mesmo tinha poder destrutivo que realmente o deixou com lesões
LeSupremeKing1 said:
Even if I were to steelman the idea that Itachi is, as opposed to just creating a mind trick/illusion, creating a whole nother world, for it to be considered low 2-c it would need to be universal in size.

How big is it? planet sized? City sized?

But even I ignored even those standards, do you have any idea how inconsistent that would be for the show's scaling?
So yeah there is no way I'll agree, nor is there any way this thread will be passed
Click to expand...
I can believe from this post that you haven't read both databooks once, the HypeText of the TS incites to be a 4D dimension, and the Mugen Tsukuyomi one cites that all the dimension generated by the user is a universal scale, so much so that several and several times in the work itself and its alternate stories refer to the dimensions of Tsukuyomi itself as having a universal scale.

prnt.sc

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot
prnt.sc prnt.sc
Click to expand...
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Hate to break it to ya, but RtN is not canon.
And the technique Obito used to create the parallel universe in that movie has nothing to do with Itachi's Tsukuyomi, but rather an incomplete version of the IT if memory serves. Regardless, you can't use that because the movie isn't canon unfortunately.

You're confused. Tayuya's golems are the ones that absorb chakra. Her genjutsu only paralyses its victims.

No genjutsu ever left its victims with visible injuries because, again, they're mental illusionary techniques.
Click to expand...
Non-Canonical? Since Road to Ninja is a movie that had script supervision, design... Etc; of Kishimoto, therefore, the creation of the mechanics are from the creator himself that gives continuity to the manga, following the same logic of the movie. Databook 4 has official information of the series, so if the movie has relevance in being in the same information that is canonical, it means that the movie itself is canonical, so much so that an oneshot is created in continuity with the movie.

  • Road to Ninja present in the Databook a oneshot is created for connection to the movie. oneshot (databook/canonical) in connection to the movie (Road to Ninja).
  • Cover of the oneshot
  • Oneshot with Limited Tsukuyomi (movie technique): Obito holds a parallel universe and sees it as fiction, since it is the Tsukuyomi that generates the victim's dream.
--
--

"parallel universe"

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81lceTUpaOS.jpg


And now I want you to tell me which application is divergent between itachi's ST and the limited ST, they both follow the same logic, the only change is that obito's ST uses the Crystal Ball to have a bigger baseline (since in the story's narrative it creates a Multiverse, by the logic that when it is broken the structure still remains).
And Tayuya's Hax is portrayed in the manga itself as being a Genjutsu of the same ... do you even follow what is said in the scan, or do you simply assume a distorted narrative that is based on pure guesswork?
 
Non-Canonical? Since Road to Ninja is a movie that had script supervision, design... Etc; of Kishimoto, therefore, the creation of the mechanics are from the creator himself that gives continuity to the manga, following the same logic of the movie.
Click to expand...

Supervision does not necessarily mean canon.
 
Red said:
Quoted in several different sources from creating a space-time that can be proven to be a physical structure, as well as being referred to as a universal scale.
Click to expand...
He does not create a space time at all that is proven to be any physical structure.

He controls the victim's perception of space and time which wounds the body.

You're reading way too into this
 
Damage3245 said:
Supervision does not necessarily mean canon.
Click to expand...
Script supervision is already embedded in the very concept of a canonical narrative, and in my postulate this is not the only way. Also the presence of the same in canonical material, OneShot made by kishimoto, etc.
 
Red said:
Non-Canonical? Since Road to Ninja is a movie that had script supervision, design... Etc; of Kishimoto, therefore, the creation of the mechanics are from the creator himself that gives continuity to the manga, following the same logic of the movie. Databook 4 has official information of the series, so if the movie has relevance in being in the same information that is canonical, it means that the movie itself is canonical, so much so that an oneshot is created in continuity with the movie.

  • Road to Ninja present in the Databook a oneshot is created for connection to the movie. oneshot (databook/canonical) in connection to the movie (Road to Ninja).
  • Cover of the oneshot
  • Oneshot with Limited Tsukuyomi (movie technique): Obito holds a parallel universe and sees it as fiction, since it is the Tsukuyomi that generates the victim's dream.
--
--

"parallel universe"

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81lceTUpaOS.jpg


And now I want you to tell me which application is divergent between itachi's ST and the limited ST, they both follow the same logic, the only change is that obito's ST uses the Crystal Ball to have a bigger baseline (since in the story's narrative it creates a Multiverse, by the logic that when it is broken the structure still remains).
Click to expand...
Look man, just because Kishimoto worked on it and provided promotional material for the movie doesn't inherently make the movie canon. A lot of anime movies are non-canon even though the author works closely on them. One Piece has plenty of such movies. This is usually because the movies simply cannot fit within the canon timeline.
This is definitely the case for RtN. The movie does not fit into the canon timeline, AT ALL. The movie takes place after the Pain, Kage Summit, and even Early War Arc given that Naruto knows Killer Bee and is implied to be capable of using KCM, yet the war arc itself hasn't taken place yet. The events are also never mentioned or even alluded to in the manga.
Red said:
And Tayuya's Hax is portrayed in the manga itself as being a Genjutsu of the same ... do you even follow what is said in the scan, or do you simply assume a distorted narrative that is based on pure guesswork?
Click to expand...
Well, it'd be easier to check the scan.......if the link worked...

And no, it's not "guesswork". Her chakra absorption technique comes from her Golems in CS1, while her genjutsu is an entirely separate technique exclusive to her CS2 state.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
No genjutsu ever left its victims with visible injuries because, again, they're mental illusionary techniques.WT
Click to expand...
wtf
God900 said:
Low 2-C cosmology, 4-D mindhax for Naruto characters??????

No offense, but this is one of the most absurd threads I've seen
Click to expand...
Just because there is space and time continuum in naruto I let it be low 2-C, 4-D by creating a continuum of space and time, it's okay if you refute.
 
KingTempest said:
He does not create a space time at all that is proven to be any physical structure.

He controls the victim's perception of space and time which wounds the body.

You're reading way too into this
Click to expand...
Just read the first premise of the scale, it already proves the same to be a physical structure by chakra factor being composed of a direct interconnection of physical and spiritual energy, besides several times in the work being portrayed as a physical structure (Tayuya's Genjutsu, RTN, etc).
Outside of that, The proof for being creator of it is literally consistency with the overarching predominance in all aspects of the plan created by the TS, by saying it is only space-time control/manipulation, you would literally be taking it totally out of context by stating that Itachi did not create the dimension and connect it with the TS, being that the very purpose of the TS is to create a mirror world/universe where everyone has their own world containing space-time, where the databook of the Index that the TS creates and manipulates space-time by mastering the substances of the universe.
 
koichi_ said:
wtf

Just because there is space and time continuum in naruto I let it be low 2-C, 4-D by creating a continuum of space and time, it's okay if you refute.
Click to expand...
Yeah sure, without evidances of those being Universal sized, even worst, not even a single Universal feat at display.
 
Red said:
Just read the first premise of the scale, it already proves the same to be a physical structure by chakra factor being composed of a direct interconnection of physical and spiritual energy, besides several times in the work being portrayed as a physical structure (Tayuya's Genjutsu, RTN, etc).
Click to expand...
What?

You know something can require physical energy and be strictly spiritual correct?

Ninjutsu requires physical and spiritual energy, and the ones that involve souls that cannot be physically touched or interacted with are still made with chakra correct?

It is not proven to be a physical structure, especially when Itachi himself calls it a DREAMSCAPE. Don't reach
Red said:
Outside of that, The proof for being creator of it is literally consistency with the overarching predominance in all aspects of the plan created by the TS, by saying it is only space-time control/manipulation, you would literally be taking it totally out of context by stating that Itachi did not create the dimension and connect it with the TS, being that the very purpose of the TS is to create a mirror world/universe where everyone has their own world containing space-time, where the databook of the Index that the TS creates and manipulates space-time by mastering the substances of the universe.
Click to expand...
???????

The man called it a dreamscape.

Wtf are you talking about
 
Damage3245 said:
The burden of proof is on you to show Universal levels of Attack Potency here.

Do you have any support for Itachi being Universal aside from Genjutsu?
Click to expand...
WTF? I already left the whole premise to be a physical scale, just like I am waiting for you to answer me moments ago, this other user incited the scale to be wrong, and I am wanting him to counter argue the same, don't come twisting the context of what is being imposed here, just apply to you straw man.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Tsukuyomi is a purely mental technique, just like all genjutsu.
When Izumi lived out the rest of her life within the Jutsu, she was said to have died because her mind died, not her body. Her body followed afterwards because you can't survive your mind dying.
Likewise, when Kakashi was hit with the technique, he suffered physical ailments only due to the mental trauma. The technique has no apparent physical effects at all, and is purely mental in nature.
Click to expand...
the text is proving that spiritual = physical in naruto, bringing everything illusory from tsukuyomi to the physical plane
 
KingTempest said:
What?

You know something can require physical energy and be strictly spiritual correct?

Ninjutsu requires physical and spiritual energy, and the ones that involve souls that cannot be physically touched or interacted with are still made with chakra correct?

It is not proven to be a physical structure, especially when Itachi himself calls it a DREAMSCAPE. Don't reach

???????

The man called it a dreamscape.

Wtf are you talking about
Click to expand...
Just close this, it's a waste of time
 
God900 said:
Yeah sure, without evidances of those being Universal sized, even worst, not even a single Universal feat at display.
Click to expand...
the tsukuyomi is referred to as world, and world in this context fits that of another universe 🐥, I disagree with that, but it's literally in the text
 
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