Naruto Upgrades Part 3: 5-B Base Naruto and Sasuke (The Last Thread)

[TheFinalOrder]

This will be the last thread. We're restricted to 100 posts. Only rebuttals or counterarguments will be allowed to be posted. Memes and random comments like, "I agree", are strictly forbidden until the 100 replies cap is reached these are the restrictions i've been told to put.

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Continuation from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2314997

Ok, so, this post is going to prove why IMade's Argument is faulty and winds up still leading to 5-B physical stats for Base Naruto and Sasuke.

So, IMade's Argument Targets Sasuke and Momoshiki, so that's who i'll address.

For Starters, IMade doesn't want to accept Sasuke's 2 5-B Feats from the War Arc as "Legitimate":

• Scan 1: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Hx0s8bLCR...sKMNQMgfDg7wlR6NvAjcbwCHM/s16000/0676-006.png

• Scan(s) 2: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L8wQb5wB4...mXqMD14GvXn59MdYF42KGwCHM/s16000/0679-010.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--PhtWpu9e...7_EmFxijBAPL_0q14G7IvQCHM/s16000/0679-011.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VUuA2LQrC...2VBnj1ol2bcfdqzO65cnXwCHM/s16000/0679-012.png

Now, IMade has his reasons for this, which I disagree with, but for arguments sake, as I said before, we're following his reasoning and pointing out the faults amongst other things. We'll touch back on this later.

So, with the two feats above not considered "Legitamate" via IMade's arguments, that Means in terms of Physical AP / Durability Sasuke is "Unknown". Sasuke will Remain Unknown in all Physical Stats, save for speed, up until He and Naruto Tag Teams Fused Momoshiki.

• Sasuke has no other Physical Feats in the War Arc, Post Resurrection.

• Sasuke has no physical feats in "The Last".

• Sasuke has no physical AP or Durability feats in Boruto's Era.

But wait...Sasuke and Base Naruto have been consistently portrayed as Physically Equal in the Manga:

• Scan 1: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i5MprOFMa...wdhm_0025xrRTRwJ-SnXewCHM/s16000/0694-017.png

• Ref. Chapters: 697 & 698 (A reference here will have to suffice as I'm not about to post entire chapters)

Now, the issue with this is, Base Naruto is "Kinda" in the same boat as Sasuke. He has no real Physical Feats, except 1 from "The Last", up until the he and Sasuke tag team Fused Momoshiki.

• The Feat (Skip to 4:01): https://youtu.be/tB7pAv6HUaw

Here, Naruto tanks the explosion of his Chakra, which was calced to be Tier 6 (Now, some people want to use this for his stats, but doing so is misleading as this feat happens when Naruto has little to no Chakra/Stamina and is falling unconscious. He's literally weaker during this feat than post Ashura Avatar / Biju-Susanoo Jutsu Clash).

So, Base Naruto is still largely "Unknown" with bare minimum Tier 6 Stats and thus, so is Sasuke. I'll get back to these two, but now let's jump to Momoshiki.

IMade Claims that Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki are not 5-B Period. That they have no 5-B Feats, only consistent tier 7 feats. The former would be true "going by his arguments" as Base Naruto nor Sasuke, according to him, have no 5-B Physical feats (Again, we'll get back to that), but the latter is extremely false. Let's address this in the order of the events:

• Ref. Boruto Chapter 2, Pages 6-11: When we first see Kinshiki, he's fighting on par with Sasuke in h2h combat, which Scales Kinshiki to Tier 6, at the very least, as Sasuke scales from Base Naruto and their top limit or even Normal level is "Uknown" still (http://*****************/read-online/Boruto-chapter-2-page-6.html )

• Ref. Boruto Chapter 2, pages 42-47: Here we see Kinshiki and Momoshiki, casually having a conversation while Killer B is beat up and strung to the side of a mountain or whatever (http://*****************/read-online/Boruto-chapter-2-page-42.html )

The Killer B situation is interesting, especially in regards to IMade's arguments. IMade's argument makes it out to be like Momoshiki "needed" to power up to defeat Killer B, when that's not the case. Killer B was defeated off screen. The tools we see him strung up with are Black with white borders.

• Scan: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sSE2Mmk9I...DCR4bMELIBbSUrn4QyDPSwCHM/s16000/0002-042.png

The same we see of Kinshiki's Weapons:

• Scan(s): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qvthtR247...K16HKZRDn4vR51SDUKHjbQCHM/s16000/0002-006.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dQJ2sAADe...Ng8d1l8SsNkcSGz8lOhUKQCHM/s16000/0002-008.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GptLoS-Jp...hi-dJmDLwo6felvWA7OWgQCHM/s16000/0002-010.png

So, given all of the factors, we know Kinshiki defeated Killer B and it is implied to have been casually. In regards to Momoshiki and the pills, he takes the pills before KB even forms the Biju Dama with no knowledge that he is about to do. When KB Fires it, Momoshiki casually absorbs it and casually sends it back 2x stronger as everyone can read. According to Gallavant, after the Biju Bomb Calcs he revised, Killer B is a Tier 6 character. The Biju Bomb Momoshiki fired back would produce a Tier 6 Explosion and they Casually tanked it with 0 damage, and that's not an assumption.

• The Range Fired From: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jfTmTU6fe...pruVmYmGvjdCGJby-SwSIACHM/s16000/0002-044.png

• KB's Biju Dama Explosion AOE (Incomplete): http://i.imgur.com/CYdKmGQ.png

So now that's consistent Tier 6 feats at an extremely Casual Level. And Momoshiki was holding back, not trying to kill him for the same reason Kaguya was holding back against Naruto and Sasuke at first:

• Scan: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r2M8aGfN2...6g1csyHuHyajnGG8gCHMYBhgL/s16000/0005-030.png

And still no Anti-feats people were claiming, just casual displays of power as has been stated by me and others....let's continue.

So, from here, the next interaction dealing with Momoshiki is at Chunin Exams. At this point, this is where the Faults in IMade's Arguments become prominent.

• IMade accepts SPSM Naruto as 5-B overall

• IMade claims Momoshiki has no 5-B feats at all, only 7-A feats (But the latter has been debunked and the former is about to be debunked).

Iirc, IMade mistook one of my previous posts as meaning Naruto only strained against the Biju Bomb....but that's not what I said. He chose to focus on the Biju Bomb only. What i said was, and this is off the top if my head, "Naruto, enhanced by Sasuke's Chakra, strained against Momoshiki's Ninjutsu throughout chapter 5".

• Scan 1: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oA0lZmA9H...ROkt7ST2LPYGY9i4ACHMYBhgL/s16000/0005-041.png

• Scan 2: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uFb7SQDGO...0huabPolOKiPGi1rACHMYBhgL/s16000/0005-042.png

• Scan 3: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Zb7hTn1-c...zuN72TVR9N6VUz2ywCHMYBhgL/s16000/0005-043.png

^Consistent 5-B feats. And in addition to this, the Boruto Anime's Portrayal of Characters is accepted as Supporting/Secondary Canon due to Kodachi's (Boruto's Author) involvement with it, and by extension, Kishimoto's (Naruto and Boruto's creator) portrayal of the characters in his Boruto Movie (Kepekley23 even agrees)

• Anime (Skip to 6:10): https://youtu.be/kAcX6j_PYz0

• Movie (Skip to 2:04) : https://youtu.be/kAcX6j_PYz0

So here we have (1)Momoshiki demonstraiting 5-B AP in the Manga (2)Momoshiki being portrayed as strong enough to hurt Naruto and Sasuke from both the Creator of Naruto and Author of Boruto.

• Note: Kishimoto wrote the Boruto Movie with Kodachi's Aid and heavily oversaw it's production and heavily supervises the Manga and Kodachi is not only the Author for the Boruto Manga, but the showrunner of the Boruto Anime.

There are still no anti-feats or contradictions. Everything this far is consistent and disproves everything IMade argued, but let's continue.

So, following the above, Naruto as we know protected the village from Momoshiki's Biju Bomb and was injured in the process (Another 5-B Feat of Momoshiki), enough to be kidnapped then strung up to a god tree.

• Note: It's stated by Sasuke in the Manga that Naruto could easily blast away Momoshiki's Biju Dama. This is not a contradiction. Throughout Naruto, A persons Ninjutsu AP is Generally > Their Physical Capabilities (Naruto w/ Rasengan, Sasuke w/ Chidori, Etc.). This is only changed on rare occasions through Chakra Control and the Most Recent Example of this is in "The Last" (Naruto's Chakra Punch > Odama Rasengan > Odama Rasengan Barrage > FRS). Momoshiki is Weaker than Naruto when he's using Ninjutsu (but Naruto can't use Ninjutsu against Momoshiki, which was the point of the Handicap) but strong enough to Strain and Damage his Physical body with his own Ninjutsu. I'll get into why the Fight with Momoshiki in general is PIS later, which is also anther thing that IMade misunderstood about my argument. I never said the entire arc is PIS, only the fight with Momoshiki.

The next time we see Momoshiki and Everyone is when Sasuke brings the Kage and Boruto to help. This is where IMade proceeds to do a "Feat Dump" while misleading people on the context

First off, It should be noted that Base Momoshiki has no real speed feats outside of reaction speed.

• He could percieve Sasuke and Kinshiki's fight good enough to call Kinshiki's actions sloppy in all mediums (Manga, Anime, Movie, Novel)

• In the Movie he's portrayed as being able to react to Sasuke (This is before he eats Kinshiki)

In the Anime and Manga, it forgoes that part and Momoshiki only asks Naruto if Boruto was his son before absorbing Kinshiki. The anime uses scenes from the movie and Darui Chasing Momoshiki and attacking him is the same, and in Both, Momoshiki casual reacts and dodges his attacks.

In the Manga, this is what's shown in regards to Darui:

• Scan(s): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y-vPLCbfk...X_dYD8zLBkfAPibcwCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-032.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PZ5eGMw5y...MZioDVNlmCNOlbwhgCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-033.png

IMade and many others claim this is an Anti-Feat, which is not true.

• Remember, Aside from Reaction Speed, Momoshiki has no Travel/Combat speed feats. This is his first one in the in all Mediums before he reacts to Sasuke in the Movie. He blocks Darui's sword strike.

• Also, this isn't anti-feat for Momoshiki's AP or Durability as well. Momoshiki didn't attack Darui, Darui attacked him and Naruto characters are susceptible to Cutting/Piercing attacks unless they have Chakra Cloaks.

Proof:

• Scan 1: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VOW5IziRz...oBIHR8SQhbDj_Xb-jhK_0QCHM/s16000/0323-001.png

• Scan 2: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tnlphZb7C...56aHHQ5fJ1jgzXTQiXDRKACHM/s16000/0337-004.png

• Scan 3: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4zb598zF...DZKirdwsZfC0UfX1x85SaQCHM/s16000/0381-001.png

• Scan 4: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-v5rd2f8z0...pAHzNUc1U1wkML5_lKrzLACHM/s16000/0166-012.png

• Scan 5: https://shannaro.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/naruto-524-02.png

• Scan 6: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SOyxjBZNoRE/VXA4h_1NTXI/AAAAAAAADV4/iy2pkWOuJl8/s1600/sasuke+stabbed.png

• Scan 7: https://static.comicvine.com/upload...2686-screen+shot+2017-01-22+at+5.07.14+pm.png

• Scan 8: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4LITd_d6...ncObjLyba-w0mHrFPSWopwCHM/s16000/0296-003.png

• Scan 9: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sGIrUs_-A...6aocK7k0Z7FERpuScPfc5QCHM/s16000/0462-016.png (Sasuke attepts to cut through the the Cloak with a Raiton Enhanced Blade, but no mas)

• Scan 10: https://dailyanimeart.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/naruto-saves-hinata.png

^I didn't post every single instance of both in the Manga as this should be more than enough to justify Momoshiki blocking a sword strike.

Naruto characters are like OP characters. Strong against Blunt Force And Energy Attacks but Easily Susceptible to Cutting and Piercing attacks without Protection (Cloaks/Haki).

• Momoshiki doesn't have a cloak

• Kinshiki doesn't have a cloak

• Sasuke doesn't have a cloak and he couldn't use EMS at the the time the Shin fight to use Susanoo to protect Sarada.

In regards to Kinshiki, he is shown fighting Sasuke again, Equally. Their fight is interrupted by Chojirou who fires a Getsuga Tensho type of attack (A Cutting Attack) at them and Kinshiki dodges it:

• Scan: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dfREYFw5V...l9tTTHni9cwUI2TWwCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-019.png

Kinshiki then goes at Chojirou, knocking his sword away easily and about to Dispatch of him when he is caught off guard:

Scan(s): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KPvAkqcQm...CijGLkPWvdjmbq_WQCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-020.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-atr8kxNgm...mdG5765lHKmf0ufUACHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-021.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E_rtNvex6...D6zUsW4HmpSs5yj8QCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-022.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9SITvEVk1...5BYgDRivCQGa-gjJQCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-023.png

In IMade's argument, he claims Chojirou blocked an attack, and the illustration disproves that as Chojirou is looking down at his sword surprised. Kinshiki knocked his blade away, injured him and was about to end him.

IMade also claims Kurotsuchi knocking him back is an anti-feat. An anti-feat of what exactly though? He's knocked back, yes, but he is unharmed:

• Scan(s): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NsJ0fUbXU...IqmUFJcDHS2Ve6PgwCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-024.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YEKxGlcrP...C8g7fUoVdl2OUEB-gCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-025.png

His Durability nor Strength is contradicted. So what're you talking about? And in addition to this, Naruto knocked Kaguya back twice and she wasn't harmed in the slightest. Anyways, afterwards, before he can counter Attack, Sasuke strikes him with Chidori (Which is the first time Kinshiki gets noticably hurt as he screams out in pain) and then stabbed by Chojirou and Sealed by Kurotsuchi.

• Scan(s): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f8ofDSnE-...8UYxcZ4LTDxM9qGcQCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-027.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PXVb1qEUn...kmoyxWJqtqiJTrQ5QCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-028.png | http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XSbLWHfWR...fp5tF5QMKEgJIc3WgCHMYBhgL/s16000/0007-029.png

I'll get into outliers after, but there are only 2, but we'll discuss it later. Not anti-feats. Anyways, what's odd is, IMade accepts Sasuke's Ninjutsu as 5-B for harming Madara, but disregards Kinshiki surviving Sasuke's Ninjutsu without much "noticable" Damage....that makes no sense. This is Kinshiki's 5-B feat, a feat which is 5-B because IMade himself accepts Sasuke's Ninjutsu as such and like I said, this post for now is following IMade's arguments.

From here, Momoshiki is cornered by Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara and Darui before absorbing Kinshiki (In the Movie, this is where Momoshiki fights Sasuke off screen before Kinshiki breaks out of the sealing). In the Manga and Anime, he just absorbs Kinshiki.

This is where we get into Fused Momoshiki vs SPSM Naruto and Sasuke and there are some things to Note before we start this part:

• At this Point, both Naruto and Sasuke are still "Unknown" in Physical AP and Bare Minimum Tier 6 in Durability at their weakest.

• Sasuke has 5-B AP via Ninjutsu

• Base Momoshiki has 5-B AP via Ninjutsu and at least tier 6 Durability casually

Note: Keep in mind, IMade agrees with SPSM Naruto being 5-B in Physical stats.

So, let's continue. Upon Momoshiki fusing with Kinshiki and becoming "Fused Momoshiki" (Which is the term i'll be using), he casually dispatches of the Kages:

• Darui: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-012.png

• Gaara: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-013.png | http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-014.png | http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-015.png

• Chojirou: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-017.png

• Kurotsuchi: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-018.png

• End Result: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-019.png

IMade attepmts to use these feats to say He's Tier 7 in Physical AP only, but he does it in a way that ignores the fact this is an extremely casual showing of his power.

Assuming this was all that was shown, IMade would be right in that Fused Momoshiki would be Tier 7 in Physical AP ("At Least Tier 7, Likely Far Higher") but unfortunately it's not all that was shown. And even then, this is only if we're disregarding the fact that Striking Strength Scales from Durability, which IMade has no real argument against.

Speaking of which, allow me to address that real quick. "Why Striking Strength Scales From Durability".

• First, in Naruto, there is this little thing Called "Taijutsu". As you know, Taijutsu is h2h combat.

• Second, what is h2h combat used for? Well, that's easy...it's used and meant for people to Injure someone with their Physical capabilities (This is the same in Fiction and Real Life, thus sports like Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, etc)

• Third, IRL, the force we can strike with exceeds our body's ability to not feel pain. This is a fact. Don't believe me, punch yourself in the face or slam your fist on your leg and tell me it doesn't hurt or that you didn't feel it.

• Fourth, Real Life is the standard, the cornerstone for which all fiction is built upon. It's the foundation of all universes and from there a creator adds layers that bends or breaks the mold, be it height, size, superpowers, intelligence, etc.

In battle series in general, as Naruto is a battle manga, humans are based on ourselves. Then you have people like: Ninja, Aliens, Heroes, Shinigami, etc. In these verses, you have characters that are proficient in whatever the mechanics of that verse is, for why they are stronger than the average human, be it "They know how to use established energies" or "They're this way because of Biology". So, in regards to striking strength, it's generally scaled from your Durability unless specifically shown otherwise, like in the case of Kaidou from One Piece. It's the opposite that cannot be claimed. Durability doesn't scale from striking strength because striking strength factually exceeds Ones Durability, unless otherwise shown or noted to not be the case.

IMade's only argument against this that RL =/= Fiction, but in regards to the topic of Striking Strength, it's not that cut and dry and when I asked for several feats demonstrating this is false from Naruto, he cannot deliver....but again, we're following his arguments for now, so let's continue.

Fused Momoshiki vs Naruto and Sasuke

So here is when we get into the meat and potatoes of it all! I want to go in chronological order, showing everyone Authors Portrayal:

• Boruto Movie: As we all know, Masashi Kishimoto (The Creator of Naruto and Boruto) is the Screenplay writer of the Boruto movie. Everything about it comes from him. Ukyo Kodachi is a screenplay writer on the movie as well, his role was specifically stated stated to Assist Kishimoto in the screenplay. Kishimoto not only wrote the movie, but supervised it's production. In the movie, Sasuke, Fused Momoshiki and SPSM Naruto are all portrayed as Physically Equal (https://youtu.be/3ZWVaW0PjmQ )

• Boruto Manga: As we know, Ukyo Kodachi is the Author of the Boruto Manga and Kishimoto himself heavily supervises it. In the Manga, the fight isn't as indepth as the movie and there is a addition to it. The Addition is that Fused Momoshiki fights Base Naruto First, Forcing him to use SPSM. The Manga attempts to Mimic the Movie's scene of Naruto and Sasuke ping ponging Fused Momoshiki but as I said before, its not as indepth:

Scans of Fused Momoshiki vs Base Naruto: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-021.png | http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-022.png | http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-023.png

Scans of the Pingponging: http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-024.png | http://217.23.10.62/manga/Boruto/0008-025.png

Note that IMade agree's that Momoshiki should have 5-B Durability because of taking SPSM Naruto's hits but thinks Base Naruto shouldn't scale to 5-B because Neither Sasuke nor Momoshiki have 5-B Physical AP. He claims it makes more sense for Naruto to scale from Fused Momoshiki's feats the Kages. Before I post my opinion of this, let's go over the Anime.

• Boruto Anime: Just a few weeks ago, we got word through a Recent Interview that Ikemoto (Artist for the Boruto Manga) had, in conjunction with the Editor And Chief of WSJ, that Ukyo Kodachi was in control of the Anime as well. Specifically that (1)He was the head writer (2)He is in control of all other writers on the show (3)All writers have to submit their screenplays to him for approval (4)He is responsible for making sure the Characterization and Portrayal of the characters are accurate. In Western Culture, this is tantamount to being the Showrunner. The only people above this are the Producers, the ones who pay for it, and that's Studio Perriot, but that's based on western culture, but still. In any case, this would mean Kodachi works closely with the Series Directors. In the Anime, the fight is more indepth again. It follows the Manga, but expands the fight. As like in the Manga, Naruto fights Fused Momoshiki alone and is shown being able to keep up with Momoshiki but is being overwhelmed. Sasuke jumps in but gets dusted as well. After a short Monologue, Naruto and Sasuke go at Fused Momoshiki, using their full power and again, SPSM Naruto, Sasuke and Fused Momoshiki are portrayed as physically equal to each other (https://youtu.be/92MbhJGOEgY )

IMade has no real argument against this, he just kinds of ignores it and again, attempts to mislead people on feats from the Manga to "disprove" it, yet both Kodachi and Kishimoto have consistently portrayed these three as physically equal. So, if SPSM Naruto is 5-B physically, so is Fused Momoshiki and Sasuke and if Sasuke is 5-B physically then so is Base Naruto who is physically equal to Sasuke and IMade accepts SPSM Naruto as 5-B physically and there is nothing to disprove this scaling as, based on his own arguments, Base Naruto and Sasuke are primarily featless until this point because he doesn't agree with Sasuke's 5-B feats in the War.

Finally, in all versions of this arc, Base Naruto powers up Boruto's Rasengan to the point it overpowers Fused Momoshiki's own Ninjutsu and obliterates his body, which means Base Naruto is 5-B via Ninjutsu as well, which itself is consistent with Sasuke having 5-B Ninjutsu as Sasuke can use Six Paths Chakra in base (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9wo_qJ-8Z...NTer7KLFpRzSOvbDs1lUqQCHM/s16000/0674-011.png ) and there is no reason Base Naruto shouldn't be able to use Six Patha Chakra in Base when Sasuke can.

So in conclusion, following IMade's argument still leads to 5-B physical stats for Base Naruto and Sasuke.

Outliers:

• Chojirou Reacting to Kinshiki: In the Manga, Chojirou Dodges Kinshiki when he flew at him. I say this is an outlier as Chojiro is consistent slower in the War arc and Boruto anime, but then again it's shakey as Kinshiki "flew at him". Unlike Madara, Kinshiki and Momoshiki gave no flight speed feats aside from flying from Land of Lightning to Land of fire in hours, which is not impressive. Flight Speed =/= Running Speed and Darui could keep up with Momoshiki's Flight Speed. So, it's plausible for Chojiro to dodge Kinshiki's flight speed and he got blitzed by Kinshiki's running speed which is equal to Sasuke's.

• Kurotsuchi Sealing: Kurotsuchi sealing Kinshiki is an outlier. She has 0 feats of anything above Tier 7 and is consistently weaker. It's also a contrived way for them to force Momoshiki into a situation of needing to absorb Kinshiki. This is far from legitimate when Kinshiki is shown consistently stronger than this one instance.

• Momoshiki Blocking a Chakra Punch: In the Anime, Fused Momoshiki is shown as Blocking a chakra punch from Naruto, similar to When he fought Toneri. This is an outlier as he is shown consistently equal to them physically and is consistently killed by Boruto's enhanced Rasengan, which the Chakra Punch, going by "The Last", would be => than the Rasengan that Killed him.

Now, doubling back to Sasuke's 2 feats in the war arc

• Kaguya Tossing SPSM Naruto and Sasuke: The 3 scans I posted are straightforward. Kaguya has them tied up, the seals start to react to her, she tosses them away hard enough to make both Exclaim. Kep's "Single Instant" argument is moot, it's a valid feat no different than Naruto punching Through Kaguya's Chakra hand with steam release. Some people want to make the claim that SPSM Naruto is "alot" stronger than Sasuke to discredit this feat...he's not. He's "marginally" stronger.

Naruto and Sasuke both Recieved half of Hagoromo's chakra. Naruto specifically has Unquantifiable fractions of Bijus 1-8 chakra and 50% of Kurama's chakra at the time. When the Bijus chakra are fused, they become Juubi's Chakra, which is Six Paths Chakra. This means SPSM Naruto (War Arc) has an Unquantifiable Fraction of Additional Six Paths Chakra than Sasuke does, so he couldn't logically be "A lot" stronger than Sasuke, only "Unquantifiably stronger".

• Sasuke tanking a Limbo hit: IMade's argument against this is that Sasuke swung his sword and blocked the Limbos hit. He claims I'm making assumptions and thus Occams Razor nullifies my argument, which is completely false. (1)The scan doesn't show Sasuke "Swinging his sword". It shows that he has the sword raised up ready to swing, him reacting to something, then an impact designation by his person. (2)Sasuke's arms aren't at as angles supporting the notion his strike was blocked, they were at angles of someone bracing for impact (3)If Sasuke made a swing, his sword would be lowered to his left side as in the scan it's raised to his right side or lowered to his right side at angle supporting he his strike was blocked, but it's not as everyone can see.

^Nothing about this is an "assumption"...the only assumption is literally coming from the guy whose argument against this states, "It's Reasonable to Assume...", which all of IMade's arguments against this feat consist of and you can go back and check them yourselves.

I also believe Striking Strength should scale from Durability (I explained why above). So with that, this is my proposed Reasonings for the Upgrades:

• Base Naruto AP: "5-B (Comparable to Sasuke and Amplified Boruto's Rasengan enough to Momoshiki)"

• Base Naruto Striking Strength: "5-B (Comparable to Sasuke)"

• Base Naruto Durability: "5-B (Comparable to Sasuke and can withstand Momoshiki's Attacks)

________________

• Sasuke Striking Strength: "5-B (Comparable to SPSM Naruto and Fused Momoshiki)

• Sasuke Durability: "5-B (Comparable to SPSM Naruto and Fused Momoshiki)

________________

• Momoshiki's AP/SS: "5-B (Taxed an Amped SPSM Naruto's durability with his Ninjutsu) | 5-B (Comparable to SPSM Naruto and Sasuke)".

• Momoshiki's Durability: "At Least 6-C, Likely Far Higher (Tanked an Explosion 2x stronger than Killer B's Biju Dama without Damage) | 5-B (Tanked Hits from SPSM Naruto)

________________

• Kinshiki AP/SS: "5-B (Can Fight Sasuke Equally in Taijutsu)"

• Kinshiki Durability: "5-B (Tanked a Chidori from Sasuke with Minor Injuries)"

Note: I just wanted to make this clear that The reason Base Naruto was Overwhelmed was due to speed. Base Naruto can react to Sasuke and Momoshiki, but Reaction speed alone is not enough to keep up 100% in a fight. How do I know it's speed?

• SPSM is but a State of Mind, it's not a form that gives a Buff AP. It's only stated to give a buff in Reaction speed (This was explained in the previous thread OP and throughout both the 1st and 2nd threads).

• Naruto's SPSM Chakra Cloak was different because he was using all Biju Chakra at once, this is proven with Madara and Obito upon Becoming Juubi Jinchuriki. The Juubi's Chakra gives them the Rinnegan and Tomoe pattering on their backs. In Boruto, Naruto only uses BM+SPSM.

• SPSM Naruto in Boruto is only adding 100% Kurama's Chakra ontop of his SPC, which is a insignificant boost in AP as Kurama's Chakra is only Tier 6, thus, the form only serves to boost speed, especially with Base Naruto being Physically equal to Sasuke as shown above, in all but speed and Base Naruto should have access to 50% Hagoromo's Chakra, the same as his Chakra Mode.

Also, Incase anyone is Confused, Ninjutsu is > Physical Stats unless enhanced by Chakra Control:

• Base/Fused Momoshiki Ninjutsu > SPSM/Base Naruto's Physical Stats

• SPSM/Base Naruto's Ninjutsu Attacks > Base/Fused Momoshiki's Ninjutsu Attacks & Physical Stats

• Base/SPSM Naruto, Fused Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Sasuke are all Equal in Physical Stats (With Base Naruto only being able to react to them and momentarily keep up).

EDIT: IMade claims several times throughout this thread that I did not respond to sone of his posts. This is extremely false. I reponded to almost every post and claim he's made while he ignores feats posted in the OP and throughout the thread below.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

This whole prompt is a large circular scaling trying to justify a 5-B rating for Base (Teenage War Arc Post-Revival) Naruto in AP, Striking Strength and Durability as well as Base Sasuke in AP/Striking Strength and Durability for his Adult profile: Note; Sasuke is currently not listed as 5-B physically for his Teenage Profile, he is listed as 5-B through Perfect Susano'o

What is being used to justify a Base Naruto being 5-B is Sasuke and Momoshiki/Kinshiki, a few scenes between them is being used to try to justify this scaling.

What is being used to justify Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke being 5-B physically is an interaction with Kaguya, Madara's Limbo Clones and interacting with Momoshiki/Kinshiki.

What is being used to justify Momoshiki and Kinshiki being 5-B are interacting with a now claimed 5-B Base Adult Naruto and Base Adult Sasuke (circular scaling here). I'll go over each one as to disprove the OP's claim you must disprove the support.

Sasuke is Not Physically 5-B as a Teenager With Rinne-Sharinga
The two scenes trying to justify Sasuke's proposed key are being thrown by Kaguya and interacting with Momoshiki/Kinshiki.

Sasuke Being Thrown by Kaguya Isn't a Feat:
In this scan, we see Sage of Six Paths Naruto and Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke being thrown by Kaguya's hair with both emmitting an audible groan of pain.

This is being used to justify Teenage Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke's durability is equal to Sage of Six Paths Naruto's 5-B Durability. I will retort with Kepekley23's own words as they are more concise than my own:

I'll reiterate Kep's words since he and I basically agree on this:

Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.

Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly,as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.

Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.

Sasuke Doesn't Tank a Hit From Madara's Limbo Clone:
Straight up, this isn't a durability feat, it's literally not a feat at all. Sasuke doesn't tank any hit nor do any visible damage. It's a misintepretation of feat by the OP.

Sasuke was already in motion to strike as we can see. We know Sasuke is in mid-motion with his Chidori Blade above his head as he's bringing it down, and that in the actual panel of the contact, Sasuke's sword is now actually down.

It's perfect and reasonable implication that the point of contact was with his Chidori Blade. Your stance relies on the entire assumption that we ignore these positionings and assume that Sasuke somehow was hit.

If we were to invoke Occam's Razor, your position would be denied due to the assumptions you must take being higher than the stance of Sasuke making contact through the Blade.

Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out. The anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.

There's no way this is a feat of Sasuke being hit, nothing implies that.

Sasuke With the Kusanagi Blade Isn't 5-B Neither:
Althought not mentioned in the OP, the Kusanagi Blade that Sasuke uses is for some reason being incorrectly labeled as 5-B by those in support of this upgrade since it pierced a 5-B Madara and Adult Sage of Six Paths Naruto. There are several blatant issues with this:

1) The Kusanagi in the War Arc is not the same Kusanagi in Boruto. They are different blades.

2) Sasuke doesn't physically pierce a 5-B Madara with the Kusanagi Blade. Sasuke used Amenotejikara to switch places with his Kusanagi Blade and Madara flew into it.

3) The Kusanagi Blade alone cannot be 5-B unless we now scale everyone that interacted with it to 5-B:

• Apparently Zabuza's Executioner Blade is 5-B for not chipping when clashing with the Kusanagi Blade.
• Apparently either Bee is 5-B physically at base or his blades are just 5-B somehow.
• Apparently the Raikage's Raiton Armor is 5-B since the Kusanagi Blade repelled from hitting it head on.

There are a lot more instances, but it's quite clear that the Kusanagi Blade is not 5-B, it would make absolutely no sense if it were, especially that somehow Sasuke had access to 5-B metals to make his blade in the late chapter 200's of Naruto.

Sasuke Isn't 5-B From Base Momoshiki, Base Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki
Mainly because the scaling doesn't make sense as I'll explain in the next section, but for a quick recap of the OP's scaling:

Base Naruto is 5-B because Sasuke is 5-B. Sasuke is 5-B from Kaguya, Madara, Momoshiki and Kinshiki... but the OP is also claiming that Sasuke is 5-B from interacting with Base Naruto....and what is worse is the OP is claiming that Base Naruto is also 5-B from Fused Momoshiki... and that Fused Momoshiki is 5-B from Sasuke. I'll even copy paste his own words from the OP:

Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.

Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights

Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki

And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes

It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z is 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules.

Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki Aren't 5-B
This is pretty cut and dry, Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki literally have a huge majority of feats being below Tier 5. They have almost no 5-B feats.

Base Momoshiki's Feats Are All Pathetically Below 5-B:

• Momoshiki (Off-screen and with the help of Kinshiki) defeats Gyuki, the Eight Tails. What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to. Plus, Momoshiki didn't defeat Gyuki at base, he was amped from having absorbed Gyuki's own Bijuudama and from having swallowed a few Chakra Pills which further amp himself.

• Immediately after defeating Gyuki and Bee in Kumogakure, Momoshiki heads straight towards Naruto. Notable since Momoshiki left when it was completely dark and reached Konohagakure when the sun was already out and Naruto discovered Boruto was cheating. Momoshiki arrived to the scene several minutes after Boruto's cheating was discovered.

• Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto. Remember this feat, I am going to come back to it.

• Base Momoshiki easily outspeeds Adult Base Naruto despite not even looking his direction.

• Momoshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Momoshiki had to absorb the Jutsu to get out of it.

• Momoshiki makes Sage of Six Paths Naruto struggle with his Bijuudama. What is noteworthy is Momoshiki had literally absorbed several Jutsu and taken several pills to amp his power before making the Bijuudama. Yet, it was still weaker than Sage of Six Paths Naruto's Bijuudama. So a massively amped Momoshiki's AP < Sage of Six Paths Naruto's AP.

• Momoshiki has to dodge an attack from Darui (who is 7-C at the moment).

• A flying Momoshiki is literally slower than Darui running on sand since Darui catches up to Momoshiki despite having started from further back.

• Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui and Momoshiki was still running away from Darui.

So a completely Base Momoshiki has no actual solid 5-B feats. The only one for contention is kicking Adult Base Naruto; however, Adult Base Naruto being 5-B is what we are currently discussing, it can't be used as evidence for Momoshiki since Momoshiki is supposed to be evidence for Adult Base Naruto, otherwise that's even more circular scaling. So there is no feat for Base Momoshiki being 5-B and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for Base Momoshiki being Tier 7-A to possibly 6-C.

Base Kinshiki's Feats Are Almost All Pathetically Below 5-B

• Kinshiki crosses blades with Adult Base Sasuke who is using Kusanagi and a Raiton Ninjutsu (probably Chidori)

• Kinshiki sends Adult Base Sasuke flying back after a direct hit.

• Kinshiki (Off-screen and with the help of Momoshiki) defeats Gyuki, the Eight Tails. What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to.

• Immediately after defeating Gyuki and Bee in Kumogakure, Kinshiki heads straight towards Naruto. Notable since Kinshiki left when it was completely dark and reached Konohagakure when the sun was already out and Naruto discovered Boruto was cheating. Kinshiki arrived to the scene several minutes after Boruto's cheating was discovered.

• Kinshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Noteworthy since Kinshiki was literally in the midst of attacking Sasuke when Shikamaru incapacitates Kinshiki in the middle of swinging. So Kinshiki's strength is below Shikamaru's Shadow's strength.

• Kinshiki has to dodge an attack from Chojuro.

• Kinshiki literally had to dodge another attack from Chojuro.

• Chojuro could literally react and dodge an attempted blitz from Kinshiki. Then Chojuro even crossed blades with Kinshiki and took a hit from him.

• Kurotsuchi then sends Kinishiki flying and into roots of the God Tree with a punch. Kurotsuchi's striking strength > Kinshiki's Durability

• Kinishiki is pierced by a Jutsu from Chojuro. Chojuro's Ninjutus AP > Kinshiki's Durability.

• Kinishiki is then incapacitated physically by Kurotsuchi's Jutsu with Kinishiki physically strained and in pain. Kurotsuchi's Ninjutsu > Kinshiki's AP

• Kinshiki takes a Chidori from Adult Base Sasuke.

Base Kinshiki has an overwhelming amount of feats that are Tier 7-A, a severe amount as well. He has only one 5-B feat for AP and Durability while the rest are literally entirely 7-A feats. By definition, the singular 5-B feat would be an outlier, Kinshiki is consistently below that. Note: Kinshiki had a planet splitting statement from a Guidebook, but there are a couple issues with that:

1) The Guidebook is about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.

2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.

Fused Momoshiki is Kinda 5-B:
Fused Momoshiki is the only one who actually displays some 5-B feats, but not in all stats.

• Post-Kinshiki Absorption Momoshiki no-sells a sword swing from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke.

• An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.

• Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well. Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.

• Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.

• Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi.

• Trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle.

• Adult Base Naruto shifting to Sage of Six Paths immediately overwhelms Momoshiki and Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Naruto while being in visible pain.

• Soon after, Sasuke sends Momoshiki flying back with a punch, although Momoshiki shows no pain nor surprise like with Naruto.

• Momoshiki's Lava Golem overpowers Kurama.

• Lava Golem is easily defeated by Susano'o Clad Kurama.

• Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

• A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks Momoshiki's Jutsu as well.

• Kicks Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke away.

• Stabbed by Boruto.

• Momoshiki has his Bijuudama overpowered and is killed by a Cho Odama Rasenga made by Base Naruto.

The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.

So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.

Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being This Weak Is Not WIS/PIS/CIS
These are straight up anti-feats and the 5-B feats are straight up outliers. Here is the definition of outlier:

A person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.

Outliers can be a super high-end feat or an extremely low-end feat that is not consistent with the majority of a character's feat. The 5-B feat for Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki are an outlier, they are a singular feat that differs from the rest of their consistent majority feats.

WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Bourot.

PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.

CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.

Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being a Greater Threat Than Kaguya Isn't an AP Statement
There are two blatant reasons the statement isn't translatable to AP:

• We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
• Being a threat is not translatable to AP or Durability. I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.

For Some Reason OP is Stating that Sage of Six Paths Naruto is Not an AP Increase and Solely a "State of Mind"
Per OP's own words:

SPSM: There is a Misconception that SPSM is Massively Stronger than Base Naruto, when that is not the case as the proof shows us. SPSM Naruto is simply a Supernatural State of Mind that Hagoromko gifted Naruto in addition to SPC.

This is completely incorrect and baseless. I will now go back to the feat I said to remember earlier of Base Momoshiki and Base Naruto:

Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto.

This feat means Base Momoshiki's AP is around the level of Adult Base Naruto's Durability. For simplicity, let's say Base Momoshiki's AP = Adult Base Naruto's Durability.

OP is currently trying to say that Naruto's AP and Durability is the same in Base and with Sage of Six Paths Mode. What he doesn't realize is he is straight up contradicting himself with this.

Fusion Momoshiki trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle. This makes sense since Fusion Momoshiki is stronger than before when he fought Adult Base Naruto at his base... yet immediately after this panel Adult Base Naruto shifts to Sage of Six Paths to immediately overwhelm Fusion Momoshiki. Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Sage of Six Paths Naruto that sends him flying while being in visible pain.

If Naruto's AP and Durability is equal in Base and Sage of Six Paths Mode, it absolutely makes no sense for Naruto to have overpowered Fusion Momoshiki with Sage of Six Paths Mode, it is literal proof that Naruto's AP increases. Naruto literally sends Fusion Momoshiki flying with a simple kick and an elbow literally rock's his world. If Naruto's AP was always the same then he would have done the same when he crossed arms with Fusion Momoshiki since he literally overpowers Fusion Momoshiki so easily with Sage of Six Paths.

Also, the ratings listed for the SPSM Chakra Mode literally states it provides Offensive, Defensive and Supplementary boost per it's Databook page. That already disproves the OP's theory. Naruto being significantly physically stronger upon activating his Cloak proves it as well.

Naruto and Sasuke's Individual Performances Against Kaguya and Madara Disprove This As Well:

Madara:

Sasuke:

• Sasuke bisects One Rinnegan Madara with a Chidori blade.
• Sasuke takes several slashes with his Perfect Susano'o to break apart one of Double Rinnegan Madara's Chibaku Tensei meteors.

Naruto:

• A TSB strike from Naruto injures a single Rinnegan Madara's Limbo Clone.
• Naruto's clones each individually hold off Double Rinnegan Madara's Limbo clones.
• A casual single Bijuudama Rasenshuriken easily destroys one of Double Rinnegan Madara's Chibaku Tensei meteors.
• Naruto proceeds to destroy the rest of the meteors.

So in the fight with Madara, Naruto without Kurama was outperforming Sasuke with his perfect Susano'o. Not comparable, except in speed perhaps.

Kaguya:

Sasuke:

• Kaguya literally destroys Rinnegan Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o on two separate occasions with 1 hit and then 4 hits when she was injured (injured from Naruto in fact). In this album she literally reacts to a sneak attack from Rinnegan Sasuke in his Perfect Susano'o and dodges a sword swing from him.
• Kaguya is too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke as she pulls him into another dimension.
• Kaguya is too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke to tag even when up close.

Naruto:

• Naruto is too fast for Kaguya to pull into a dimension (the same move she used on Sasuke who was too slow to evade) then Black Zetsu compliments Naruto's speedand Kaguya admits he's fast.
• Naruto overpowers Kaguya using Steam Release.
• Kaguya takes 9 Bijuudama Rasenshuriken from Naruto and comes out slightly injured (superficial injuries).
• Naruto literally blitzes Kaguya and rips off her arm.
• Naruto momentarily keeps up with Kaguya in a flurry of Chakra punches.

Not even close, Sasuke was pathetic against Kaguya and Naruto was the only one who tagged her, injured her and was keeping up with her speed wise. As we can see in both fights, Sasuke is using Rinne-Sharingan and Perfect Susano'o while Naruto is literally only using Sage of Six Paths Mode (no Kurama summoned once).

Kaguya with Chakra Punches was able to destroy Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o with 4 hits and with an unknown attack she one-shot it as well.

SPSM Naruto not only matches Kaguya's Chakra Punches, he overpowers her at one time even.

By feats, SPSM Naruto > Perfect Susano'o which is massively superior to Sasuke's physicals.

As the OP himself agrees to, Base Naruto and Sasuke are physically similar in AP and Durability. So SPSM Naruto is superior to his Base given he is superior to Perfect Susano'o which is superior to Sasuke's physicals.

The only way to claim SPSM Naruto is similar to Sasuke's physicals would be you claiming Sasuke is physically similar to his Susano'o which is entirely fallacious and downright incorrect.

Thus by feats, Naruto with Sage of Six Paths could also 1-4 shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o and Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is explicitly more durable than himself, it's literally armor over his person.

OP is trying to say Base Naruto is equal in AP and Durability to his Sage of Six Paths Mode though and that Sasuke scales to Sage of Six Paths Mode... when Sage of Six Paths Mode literally outperformed Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o in their fight against Kaguya.

This is honestly ignorance and fallacious extrapolation to upgrade a character, it makes literally no sense.

The 7-A Rating is a Placeholder
I've only been saying 7-A because that is the current highest rated Kage that Momoshiki and Kinshiki fought (Gaara at 7-A since Naruto's Base is still currently tiered as Unknown. Darui's last key was 7-C while Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have no profiles). If we somehow prove Gaara to be above 7-A or do decide that Base Naruto is above 7-A and perhaps 6-B through his unapplied 6-B calc, then we could put Base Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, Kage Gaara, Kage Darui, Kage Chojuro and Kage Kurotsuchi at 6-B as well since they are consistent in fighting each other.

Using the Boruto Anime Over the Boruto Manga is Dishonest
On VS Wiki, we are allowed to use an anime adapation if we need to see how a feat played out for clarity, otherwise we are not allowed to use an anime over the canon source material. An anime is simply an adaption of the source material with added "filler" to pad out the episode to 21 minutes and turn a profit.

The Boruto anime is supporting canon, not the main canon. There is a difference between the two and it should be understand to avoid future confusions such as this one. The manga is the main canon with the anime being an adaption.

I also have yet to see this proof of Kodachi's interview, although Kodachi isn't the WoG of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto is. Kishimoto directly edits the Boruto manga himself.

Striking =/= Durability in Naruto
Fiction doesn't abide by our real laws of physics. We have characters more durable than they are strong or stronger than they are durable.

For example, Might Guy with the Eighth Gate. He's listed as 5-C in AP while Unknown in durability since he is solely offense and no defense with the Eighth Gate.

The same for Perfect Susano'o, Perfect Susano'o users are Low 6-B in Striking while High 6-A in Durability.

Conclusion
This whole thread is an absolute mess of incorrect circular scaling, misinterpretation of feats and uninformed knowledge of modes.

Base Naruto is not 5-B.

Sasuke is not physically 5-B.

Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki aren't 5-B.

Fusion Momoshiki is not 5-B in all stats, only in Durability and with the Lava Golem.

 

[AstralKing7]

Kep agreed the anime is supporting canon. It's on his wall somewhere that TFO proved. Also If I remember correctly i think Kodachi also stated somewhere that Kishi let's Kodachi freely do what he wants to do with the manga except when it comes to how characters personalities are and how they would act.

Might Guy is a horrible example. Might guy's durability is unknown for a reaosn. We know how the 8th gates work, comparing the functions of the gates to Momoshiki stats makes no sense at all when the 8th gate was stated to break down Might Guy's body while fighting.

Also what does the speed of the characters have to do with their AP at all???

 

[BlackeJan]

This is why I didn't want to do this again! Like are people really trying ignore 5B for someone who went against them? Like are people seriously doing this right now? Like come know it's not rocket science like seriously

Fused Momo = 5B cause he fought two other 5B (read this cause it's here yall)

Base Naruto/Sasuke could take hits and didn't get one shotted and if we go by manga with the forearm clash, Base Naruto didn't take damage from it

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

im sorry to say that i seem to have missed some important but if anyone could listen to what i have to say, i would be grateful. first thing i read is on sasuke's ap. this is both easy and hard. his susanoo and strongest jutsu should all scale to the god tiers, as he can harm, so that is pretty easy. thig is, he is hell incosistan physically. he is shown to be overpowered by kishiki more than once, only to, for some, later on overpower fused momoshiki, who should be>>>> to kinshiki. all this in base, so i agree that physically he should be unknown, but when using high end jutsu, he should scale. as for momoshiki and kinshiki.. well, kinshiki is also inconsistant. he supposedly beats killer, but then again, we know that momoshiki was there the whole time, so i feel like throwing his scaling to bee out the window. then, a few scenes after, we see him struggle with both base sasuke using no jutsus at all, and two fodder kages. imo, this guy has to be high 7a or something like, 6c max tbh. as for momoshiki's base, we should scale him to kinshiki, but say that his strongest attacks while in base, are slightly hax, as he can absorb any attack, even from a stronger opponent and use it back at them, which makes him pretty annoying to tier. lucky for us, we have naruto and sasuke to provide perfect tier 5 jutsus for us, so for momoshiki's strongest jutsus in base, we should say he could potentially dish out 5bs or something, if he gets the chance to,

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

sasuke almost got one shotted by kinshiki's casual sword swing, and his ribcage couldnt even handle momoshiki's jutsus... u sure about that?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Quite frankly I'm in agreement with IMade this justification of Part 2 Sasuke being 5-B physically is nonesense.

Except it's not. For Starters, IMade is grossly misinterpreting my statements, which I will be addressing.

Sasuke is Scales to 5-B for:

• Taking a Limbo hit (No, it's not accurate to assume his swing was blocked when he is clearly not at angles to suggest this. It's quite clear he is angled in a manner that suggest he braced for impact, look at the scan and tell me i'm wrong, because IMade can't. His go to is the Naruto Anime because he isn't correct and the Naruto anime isn't "Supporting Canon" as the Boruto Anime is)

• Kaguya tossing both Naruto and Sasuke and making both groan in pain is not a accurate feat? Since when? Look at the scans and tell me it's not as accurate, because IMade only cites Kep and Kep doesn't bring scans to disprove it. It's a factless opinion.

• The scailing isn't Circular either. IMade wishes it were so, but it's not. For starters I never said Sasuke scales from Base Naruto, he made this. I said Sasuke scales from SPSM Naruto (Which he is consistently portrayed as being by the creators). I said Base Naruto scales from Sasuke. I posted feats for both, not just pull it out of my ass. I said Kinshiki scales from Sasuke, not the other way around, another Lie vy IMade. I Said Fused Momoshiki scales from SPSM Naruto and that all three were portrayed physically equal.

So, actually looking at the evidence posted, TenshinG, am I lying? Am I making stuff up?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@IMade

 

[PaChi2]

Im following this (for the ones who were asking for a staff), and Im removing 80% of the comments below me unless they are actually arguing something.

100 REPLIES.NO VOTES OR STUFF THAT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO ANY SIDE. Get all the arguments lined up in the first 100 responses and AFTERWARDS you can start voting.

For whoever is in need of saying they agree: just kudos the replies you agree with, for now.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@IMade


*I disproved Kep here already. This doesn't lead to "Disastrous Scaling", that's BS. One Panel or not, it's a valid feat. Nothing goes against it. Kep is deliberately being misleading here, Sasuke didn't need PS to trade Blows. Naruto needed Kyuubi Avatar to trade Blows with PS. And, funny that you agree with him on this when one of the feats against Kaguya you try to use is a "Is a brief one panel feat". You're being hypocritical here and the feat isn't even just 1 panel anyways, come on man. Bottomline, you and Kep have yet to post proof actually debunking it.
________________________


*It is a Durability Feat.

• He tanks the hit and there is no visible Damage because he Didn't hit the Limbo...come on dude.

• In the scan we see the sword is raised to his right side. If he managed to swing it (And being in a swinging motion doesn't mean said arc was completed, WHICH WE DON'T SEE AND IS AN ASSUMPTION ON YOUR BEHALF) and actually connect, his sword would be lowered to his left side (As he swung in a downwards arc from the right) or it would be lowered to his right side AT AN ANGLE SUPPORTING THE NOTION HIS STRIKE WAS DEFLECTED. Neither are the case. The impact area is (1)Too close to his body for Sasuke to have logically completed the swing. (2)The angle of the blade is not consistent with a deflected strike. (3)Sasuke's positioning and angle is consistent with someone bracing for impact. - You have not addressed this at all.

The Naruto Anime isn't Supporting Canon either, so using it isn't an option. You're using a noncanon source to supplement a faulty argument....

Also, We know Sasuke has the AP to injure Madara, if his sword was deflected as you claim, where is the damage on the Limbos, Supporting the claim?

 

[BlackeJan]

Hmmm....I think I didn't finish my post but Fused Momo is 5B for fighting other 5Bs. Base Naruto/Sasuke can take hits and not get one shotted

If we were to go by manga, Base Naruto and Fused Momo forearm clashed and Naruto didn't flinch in pain or nothing, he was fine from the hit. If we were to do a good comparison of that, it was just like how Nappa did the same thing to Tien and the letters arm falls off but guess what Base Naruto didn't which can show that Base Naruto is 5B but on a lower scale

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Bro, why are you lying?? I never said Sasuke scales to Base Naruto, Fused Momoshiki and Kinshiki...

• Base Naruto scales from Sasuke

• Fused Momoshiki injures Sasuke and him, Sasuke and SPSM Naruto are consistently portrayed Physically Equal to each other in the Supporting Canon (Movie and Anime).

• Kinshiki scales to Sasuke from equally fighting him on multiple occasions (Chapters 2 and 8 of Boruto and same in Anime and Movie).

There are feats backing this stuff up. It's not Circular Scaling...that's baseless and you're misleading people on it.

Again:

• Base Naruto Scales from Sasuke

• Kinshiki scales from Sasuke

• Fused Momoshiki Scales from Sasuke and is Consistently portrayed as Physically Equal to SPSM Naruto.

• Sasuke is consistently portrayed as physically equal to SPSM Naruto in the Fight with Fused Momoshiki

You're literally claiming "Circular Scaling" all because Base Naruto is proven capable in the manga and anime of fighting Fused Momoshiki and being comparable to Sasuke through valid feats and that's nonsensical!

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Hmmm....I think I didn't finish my post but Fused Momo is 5B for fighting other 5Bs. Base Naruto/Sasuke can take hits and not get one shotted
If we were to go by manga, Base Naruto and Fused Momo forearm clashed and Naruto didn't flinch in pain or nothing, he was fine from the hit. If we were to do a good comparison of that, it was just like how Nappa did the same thing to Tien and the letters arm falls off but guess what Base Naruto didn't which can show that Base Naruto is 5B but on a lower scale

It's not even on a lower scale. Naruto was overwhelmed through speed alone and this is proven in the OP.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Kepekley23 Disagrees With the Upgrade

I do not understand why those in favor of the upgrade keep citing Kep's agreement with the anime as "supporting canon" as proof that Kep agrees with the upgrade. Kep made it very clear he fully disagrees with this upgrade:

Kepekley23 wrote: That it might be secondary canon, due to Kodachi's interview. I massively agree with, like, 99% of what IMade said.

Kepekley23 wrote: I don't think we can treat Sasuke's sword as 5-B, actually. It has numerous upon numerous feats of not even slicing through 7-As or being blocked by them. So far I agree with IMade on everything relating to 5-B Base Naruto, I've already made all my arguments in the previous thread and this one as well.

Kepekley23 wrote: Literally never played both sides, at least not in what is relevant to this thread. I always completely agreed with Base Naruto not being 5-B, which is the whole point of the thread.

Kepekley23 wrote: 'And I don't think Base Momoshiki is 7-A, but I don't think using out of context or one off scans where the characters are shown getting stomped to argue 5-B is a good practice. I have literally always said and heavily reinforced this, why you're all acting like I'm "suddenly" "playing both sides", I have no idea.

So using Kep's words on the anime does not prove a point when Kep himself said that even with the anime in his opinion being supporting canon, he does not agree with the upgrade.

Sasuke Was Not Hit by Limbo
Really nothing agrees with this misinterpretation of the feat.

Sasuke's Swinging Position Is Proof He Was Not Physically Hit
The assumption that the positioning of Sasuke during the page in which he interacts with Limbo is proof he was physically hit by Limbo is fallacious.

Sasuke is shown with his blade raised over his shoulder and in the panel of impact the blade is brought down. It's foolproof evidence that he did complete the swing since it did come down. The idea that Sasuke didn't complete the swing, thus the blade didn't block the hit is asinine, we literally see the blade is down after the raised swing, so it was a complete swing.

Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out. The anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.

Sasuke swung up and then brought it down to finish the swing. The Limbo hit the swing, not Sasuke.

Limbo Not Being Injured By the Swing Is Not Counter-Evidence
It is true that Sasuke could cut through Six Paths Sage Madara, yet the Limbo Sasuke would have hit is not injured.

However, Six Paths Sage Madara is not listed as 5-B in Durability: At least Moon level, likely far higher (Was able to survive Naruto's Rasenshurike)

The Limbo that Sasuke interacted with was of Six Paths Sage Madara (Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan) whose Durability is Planet Level.

This is not my main rebuttal though. The Limbo are practically clones of Madara, this Madara has Low-Mid Regenerationn. Madara himself regenerated from this bifurcation by Sasuke.

The Limbo clone could have easily done so as well.

This isn't counter proof of the feat.

Sasuke wasn't hit by the Limbo physically, it was an interaction of the Limbo with Sasuke's Chidori.

This is Circular Scaling
Using the words of the OP in the previous thread:

Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.

Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights

Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki

And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes

These are TheFinalOrder's own words that are in the OP of his previous thread on this subject.

It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z iz 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules. He believes it to not be 5-B because:

• Base Naruto Scales from Sasuke
• Kinshiki scales from Sasuke
• Fused Momoshiki Scales from Sasuke and is Consistently portrayed as Physically Equal to SPSM Naruto.
• Sasuke is consistently portrayed as physically equal to SPSM Naruto in the Fight with Fused Momoshiki

However, he fails to realize this is circular scaling. The scaling begins with Naruto and Sasuke while ending with Naruto and Sasuke.

Naruto Didn't Need Kurama Against Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o
It is true that Naruto resolved to pulling out Kurama against Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o; however, this is proof that Naruto needs Kurama to combat Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.

Naruto was purposefully going easy on Sasuke. Even towards the end of their fight, Naruto still admits he wishes to win fair and square against Sasuke, but not the current Sasuke.

As shown through their fight with Kaguya, Kaguya herself one shot and four shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o while Naruto physically matched her and overpowered her. SPSM Naruto is more than capable of one-shotting Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o armor.

Conclusion
As I have shown in my previous comment, it is not plausible nor reasonable for Base Naruto and Sasuke's physicals to be 5-B.

There are almost zero 5-B feats between Base Naruto, Sasuke's physicals, Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki. The rest of their feats are 7-A feats between all of them and struggles with 7-A characters.

This whole thread is an absolute mess of incorrect circular scaling, misinterpretation of feats and uninformed knowledge of modes.

Base Naruto is not 5-B.

Sasuke is not physically 5-B.

Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki aren't 5-B.

Fusion Momoshiki is not 5-B in all stats, only in Durability and with the Lava Golem.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

*This is false...Kinshiki is implied to have beat up KB Casually and both Casually Tanked a tier 6 explosio as easily as Naruto in "The Last" and Kinshiki is has consistently fought Sasuke in h2h, whom has 5-B feats you have yet to actually disprove and has been portrayed physically equal to SPSM Naruto.

• KB may be weak to blades, but you're ignoring the apparent battle damage over his body. He didn't just stand by and allow them pin him to the wall...

• Dude, the pills are irrelevant. That's Momoshiki's thing, he's going to take the pills to get stronger and obliterate you. It's apart of his arsenal, his character. You bringing it up doesn't change anything.

• His flight speed is shit and and has no relevancy here. Why are you bringing it up?

• Momoshiki can perceive Sasuke and Kinshiki's fights bro, yes, he can dodge Naruto who can only react to Sasuke and his amped form. You point in mentioning this is...?

• Here we go with the Shikamaru BS...Dude, you can miss me with that. Shikamaru stopping vastly stronger people than him with it has been BS for the longest. He alone, amped with a Kyuubi Cloak that amps him 5x at best even Affects the Juubi. Stop it bro, it's inconsistent for him, everyone knows it.

• Yes, Momoshiki's BD physically taxed SPSM Naruto and SPSM Naruto's BD is stronger. Have you not been paying attention to me saying Ninjutsu AP > Physical AP (Depending on Chakra Control)? Momoshiki's Ninjutsu > SPSM Naruto's Durability | SPSM Naruto's Ninjutsu > Momoshiki in General, 'but you're really going to sit here and ignore the other feats posted before he used the BD like they don't exist? This is why your arguments are faulty". Address them bro or concede!

*Yes Momoshiki dodges a sword strike from Darui and a slash from him later because Naruto characters without cloaks are susceptible to cutting and piercing attacks. I address this already, bro....read the damn OP, because clearly, you have not. You just copy and pasted everything you said last thread which is debunked.

• Momoshiki nor Kinshiki have notible flight speed bro...it's shit and in no way comparable to Madara's. So Darui catching up isn't anything to right home about dude. It wasn't notible to begin with.

• Did Darui injure Momoshiki? No. He attacked him twice, that's it and nothing happened.

YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE LAUGHABLE. You didn't even read the OP and just copy and pasted the same BS you posted last thread that I spent 24hrs out of my life responding to, just to have you ignore it and repost the same shit? ADDRESS THE OP OR CONCEDE!

 

[TheFinalOrder]

*Kep contradicts himself agreeing with both you and the Anime being Supporting Canon. He can't have it both ways when the Anime portrays then being physically comparable to SPSM Naruto. Therefore, until he addresses it, his opinion on this matter is void.

• Your first post of his is a contradiction, read above. He can't agree with you and agree with Supporting Canon.

• Said sword is Sasuke's Kusanagi blade, not his chakra sword (Don't be misleading). And his arguments were all debunked. All you have are his factless and baseless opinions.

• "Not play both sides" he says then proceeds to agree with you and simultaneously accept the Anime as supporting canon, which debunks you...

• Again, his stance on Kaguya tossing them is a factless opinion. What's worst is that numerous feats have been accepted on this wiki with much less backing it. The feat is valid.

Posting Kep's contradictory statements don't help you.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

*Your stance is the misinterpretation, not mine.

• You do realize whether he completed the swing or not (Which is not portrayed on panel), his sword would be lowered to his right side still if he blocked or was it? And even then, there is only a "possibility" of it being lowered on the right side and his angling and positioning just doesn't agree with that notion. You beat this horse until it's mush, but the fact remains, your stance is visually disproven....

• The Naruto Anime is a noncanon source still. It doesn't even show Sasuke reacting to the Limbos before the swing like the Manga and again, the Limbos were not injured which wouldn't be the case if they were struck by the blade Because of this. And This.

Sasuke brought the sword up, reacted to the Limbos and braced for impact, which still ends with the sword lowered to his right side.


*The Madara Sasuke cut in half was Post Absorbing the Shinju. IMade is getting the forms mixed up. The one he posted was This Madara. Who is the one that was hit by Base SPSM Naruto's Lava FRS.

• Dual Rinnegan Madara is physically equal to Post-Shinju Absorbed Madara, who fought SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. Gaining Dojutsu doesn't increase Physical stats. Madara only Says this. Which is how we know having both Dojutsu is a 5x boost. Limbos are physically equal to the caster. Madara could only make 1 with 1 Rinnegan and 4 extra with Dual Rinnegan for a total of 5. This doesn't matter as it doesn't translate to physical stats. But we see the Limbos directly after they are hit. The "Regenerationn" argument is moot as the bruise on the Limbo Naruto hit is still present much later than when Sasuke attacked.

Sasuke's Sword did not connect with the limbos. Nice try though.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I have already addressed the "Circular Scaling" Argument. It's not even "scaling", it's feat based. These characters have feats making them comparable to each other.

• Base Naruto can fight Fused Momoshiki for awhile before needing the Chakra mode, based on feats.

• Base Naruto is physically comparable to Sasuke based on feats in all but speed (He can react, that's all).

Unless you're saying feats don't matter anymore, we're done here. Your argument is dead in the water.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

*Naruto didn't have Killing Intent, but going easy he was not as they where attacking with AP strong enough to Damage their Avatars: As seen here (Note: Naruto without killing intent "isn't close to enough" to beat Sasuke)

• In regards to Kaguya, as I have already told you and posted scans about in the previous thread, Kaguya did not have killing Intent against Naruto or Sasuke at first (Here). She extremely casually overwhelmed Naruto with 80 Gods Vacuum Palms and Destroyed Sasuke Susanoo casually with an unknown technique, she could've spit at it for all we know (Here & Here). You're assuming she used 80GVP on him, but you don't know. Either way, it was both done extremely casuslly. You can't gauge which action was was the higher feat because Susanoo was destroyed off panel by unknown means.

• Towards the end as she got weaker, Naruto was barely able to hurt her. You claim he overpowered her, sure, but that was a enhancement technique and it didn't even bruise her. What's worse is that he used it against a technique you can't claim she used against Sasuke and she was still casual and holding back without killing Intent until after the steam release feat.

• Kaguya later destroyed Saauke PS when she has Killing Intent and even then, he could fight her 1 v 1 with PS while Naruto was worried about Obito. You cannot compare what she did when she was extremely casual versus trying to kill someone. This is why your Kaguya argument is extremely faulty.

• Naruto ripping off her arm is an Outlier, yes, an outlier. Naruto nor Sasuke could so much as bruise Kaguya, then out of the blue, Naruto is capable of it? What scaling, what feat? What justification do you to prove Naruto ripping off her arm is a legitament feat? From the time she was introduced to this point, they couldn't hurt her, what do you have to make us believe this is a legitament feat?

So far, you haven't proven anything, so no, there is no "In Conclusion" from you that's at all legitimate.

Edit: It's 2:45am where i am. About to hit the sack, will resume tomorrow and address what i haven't yet.

 

[AstralKing7]

What's funny is that Kep actually disagreed with the upgrades before we all found out that Kodachi is the screen director of the anime. This needs to be taken into consideration because Kodachi is the one who writes the manga and he is the one who created Momoshikis design. His input was heavily in the anime

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I categorize and title all the sections in my comments so it can be easy to follow and know which points I am addressing. I even make sub-categories to further pin-point a specific points of the oppositions to discuss. Yet it is still believed that I ignore points when I title a section for every point made. If it has come to this then I will once again directly quote and respond to each points to once again show that I do address all points. It doesn't look nice for formatting and takes a lot of space which is why I prefer the sections, but I don't mind if it removes the accusations.

[/B][/I] I don't think we can treat Sasuke's sword as 5-B, actually. It has numerous upon numerous feats of not even slicing through 7-As or being blocked by them. So far I agree with IMade on everything relating to 5-B Base Naruto, I've already made all my arguments in the previous thread and this one as well.[/URL] Nowhere was I misleading, I literally just posted Kep's quote on how he disagrees with 5-B Base Naruto. Anyways, it does not matter since TheFinalOrder doesn't agree that the sword is 5-B neither:

TheFinalOrder"] The sword piercing Madara and Naruto is an outlier. Same sword, enhanced by Sasuke's chakra can't even cut through Raikage's V1 Chakra Cloak.

• "Not play both sides" he says then proceeds to agree with you and simultaneously accept the Anime as supporting canon, which debunks you...

One can do both and still understand that the anime doesn't prove Base 5-B as I've explained above.

• Again, his stance on Kaguya tossing them is a factless opinion. What's worst is that numerous feats have been accepted on this wiki with much less backing it. The feat is valid.

[/quote]
This is a case of "whataboutism". Just because one series was handled bad does not mean we will continue that mishandling.

• Posting Kep's contradictory statements don't help you.

Kep consistently agreed with me as I showed in my second comment. He never goes back on his word as well as he consistently disagree with 5-B.

• Your stance is the misinterpretation, not mine.

Scans proving I am misinterpreting would be swell here; however, I have not been disproved yet, just vocally told repeatedly that I am wrong without being shown scans that prove the claim.

• You do realize whether he completed the swing or not (Which is not portrayed on panel), his sword would be lowered to his right side still if he blocked or was it? And even then, there is only a "possibility" of it being lowered on the right side and his angling and positioning just doesn't agree with that notion. You beat this horse until it's mush, but the fact remains, your stance is visually disproved....

This is a rather simple case and why I provided the anime as a visual aid for how this occurs (exactly 10 minutes in):

Just like in the manga, Sasuke has the Chidori Blade raised over his right shoulder. (Manga for reference)

The moment of the clash between Sasuke's swung Chidori Blade and the Limbo. (Manga for reference)

Sasuke has the Chidori Blade hanging low on his right side after the clash. (Manga for reference)

So it's quite simple how this played out in the manga as well. There is no evidence nor solid ground for TheFinalOrder's interpretation that the Limbo physically hit Sasuke.

• The Naruto Anime is a non-canon source still. It doesn't even show Sasuke reacting to the Limbos before the swing like the Manga and again, the Limbos were not injured which wouldn't be the case if they were struck by the blade Because of this. And This.

We are allowed to use the anime to explain a canon sequence in the manga that is confusing so long as it is not contradictory and consistent, which this is. I explained why the Limbo was not injured, but I will explain again since TheFinalOrder didn't read my explanation:

It is true that Sasuke could cut through Six Paths Sage Madara, yet the Limbo Sasuke would have hit is not injured.

However, Six Paths Sage Madara is not listed as 5-B in Durability: At least Moon level, likely far higher (Was able to survive Naruto's Rasenshurike)

The Limbo that Sasuke interacted with was of Six Paths Sage Madara (Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan) whose Durability is Planet Level.

This is not my main rebuttal though. The Limbo are practically clones of Madara, this Madara has Low-Mid Regenerationn. Madara himself regenerated from this bifurcation by Sasuke.

The Limbo clone could have easily done so as well.

This isn't counter proof of the feat.

Limbo could have simply healed at the end.

• Sasuke brought the sword up, reacted to the Limbos and braced for impact, which still ends with the sword lowered to his right side.

There is no evidence of bracing for impact, this is an assumption on TheFinalOrder's part. There is no panel indicating a brace for impact. The only evidence we have is Sasuke swinging the Chidori Blade over his right shoulder, Sasuke noticing something and then Sasuke has the Chidori Blade swung down to his right side and has clashed with something.

• The Madara Sasuke cut in half was Post Absorbing the Shinju. IMade is getting the forms mixed up. The one he posted was This Madara. Who is the one that was hit by Base SPSM Naruto's Lava FRS.

This is incorrect, for reference here is Madara's profile.

Madara's last two keys are Six Paths Sage Madara | Six Paths Sage Madara (Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan).

As you can see, there is no key for Post Shinju Absorption Madara, only Six Paths Sage Madara and Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan Madara. The Madara I posted is labeled under Six Paths Sage Madara as he doesn't have the Rinne-Sharingan nor the Dual Rinnegan at this time (this scan is towards the end of Chapter 673 and Madara gets the Dual Rinnegan in Chapter 675).

• Dual Rinnegan Madara is physically equal to Post-Shinju Absorbed Madara, who fought SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. Gaining Dojutsu doesn't increase Physical stats. Madara only Says this. Which is how we know having both Dojutsu is a 5x boost. Limbos are physically equal to the caster. Madara could only make 1 with 1 Rinnegan and 4 extra with Dual Rinnegan for a total of 5. This doesn't matter as it doesn't translate to physical stats. But we see the Limbos directly after they are hit. The "Regenerationn" argument is moot as the bruise on the Limbo Naruto hit is still present much later than when Sasuke attacked.

By our profile this statement is not correct:

Six Paths Sage Madara | Six Paths Sage Madara (Rinne-Sharingan + Dual Rinnegan)

Tier: At least 5-C, likely far higher | 5-B

Durability: At least Moon level, likely far higher | Planet level

Limbo would be more durable as well since it is equal to Madara.

• Sasuke's Sword did not connect with the limbos. Nice try though.

It very much did, there is no evidence that Limbo physically touched Sasuke since there is no panel between the clash, thus it is an assumption. However, we have implication and position of action that indicate Sasuke clashed with the Limbo with his Chidori Blade.

• I have already addressed the "Circular Scaling" Argument. It's not even "scaling", it's feat based. These characters have feats making them comparable to each other.

Using the words of TheFinalOrder in the previous thread:

Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.

Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights

Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki

And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes

These are TheFinalOrder's own words that are in the OP of his previous thread on this subject.

It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z iz 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules. He believes it to not be 5-B because:

• Base Naruto Scales from Sasuke
• Kinshiki scales from Sasuke
• Fused Momoshiki Scales from Sasuke and is Consistently portrayed as Physically Equal to SPSM Naruto.
• Sasuke is consistently portrayed as physically equal to SPSM Naruto in the Fight with Fused Momoshiki

However, he fails to realize this is circular scaling. The scaling begins with Naruto and Sasuke while ending with Naruto and Sasuke.

He mentions it's feat based and not scaling, however it is scaling since it is scaling Sasuke's 5-B to Naruto and the to Momoshiki and Kinshiki and scaling it back to Naruto and Sasuke as evidence that it is solid.

• Base Naruto can fight Fused Momoshiki for awhile before needing the Chakra mode, based on feats.

Fused Momoshiki is Kinda 5-B:
Fused Momoshiki is the only one who actually displays some 5-B feats, but not in all stats.

• Post-Kinshiki Absorption Momoshiki no-sells a sword swing from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke.
• An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.
• Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well.Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.
• Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.
• Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi.
• Trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle.
• Adult Base Naruto shifting to Sage of Six Paths immediately overwhelms Momoshikiand Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Naruto while being in visible pain.
• Soon after, Sasuke sends Momoshiki flying back with a punch, although Momoshiki shows no pain nor surprise like with Naruto.
• Momoshiki's Lava Golem overpowers Kurama.
• Lava Golem is easily defeated by Susano'o Clad Kurama.
• Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
• A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks Momoshiki's Jutsu as well.
• Kicks Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke away.
• Stabbed by Boruto.
• Momoshiki has his Bijuudama overpowered and is killed by a Cho Odama Rasenga made by Base Naruto.

The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.

So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.

• Base Naruto is physically comparable to Sasuke based on feats in all but speed (He can react, that's all).

I've already said I agree to this statement in the last thread:

I can agree to this because neither are 5-B.

I can agree to this, the difference between us is you believe in a 5-B Base Naruto which you have yet to prove. I can agree to this, you just need to find an accurate tier for Sasuke's physicals, or find an accurate tier for Base Naruto to scale to Sasuke's physicaly. So far 5-B is not valid.

Both of these two statements are found in this comment in the previous thread for full context.

• Unless you're saying feats don't matter anymore, we're done here. Your argument is dead in the water.

Don't believe I've ever said such a thing.

• Naruto didn't have Killing Intent, but going easy he was not as they where attacking with AP strong enough to Damage their Avatars: As seen here (Note: Naruto without killing intent "isn't close to enough" to beat Sasuke)

Naruto wasn't close enough to beat Sasuke with what he was doing at the time, yet Naruto holding back was dealing enough AP to severely damage Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.

This is very consistent since Naruto matched Kaguya's attacks as well and Kaguya later 4 shots Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o and completely destroys it. When Naruto is actually serious he overpowers Kaguya. Naruto holding back, yet dealing enough AP to damage Sasuke is entirely reasonable and consistent even, it is in no way contradictory.

• In regards to Kaguya, as I have already told you and posted scans about in the previous thread, Kaguya did not have killing Intent against Naruto or Sasuke at first (Here). She extremely casually overwhelmed Naruto with 80 Gods Vacuum Palms and Destroyed Sasuke Susanoo casually with an unknown technique, she could've spit at it for all we know (Here & Here). You're assuming she used 80GVP on him, but you don't know. Either way, it was both done extremely casuslly. You can't gauge which action was was the higher feat because Susanoo was destroyed off panel by unknown means.

If Kaguya was the same level of casualness to Sasuke and Naruto in this page, then it is still evidence that Naruto is above Sasuke. Casual Kaguya one shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o while Casual Kaguya is matched by Naruto and Naruto takes a direct hit from her that does no damage besides knocking him backwards while grunting.

Either way, Kaguya previously still destroys the Perfect Susano'o later on with 4 of her Chakra hits which Naruto matched earlier. Plus he directly overpowered her earlier as well.

What else would the Chakra emitted attacks that come out of her be besides the same one she's been using?

• Towards the end as she got weaker, Naruto was barely able to hurt her. You claim he overpowered her, sure, but that was a enhancement technique and it didn't even bruise her. What's worse is that he used it against a technique you can't claim she used against Sasuke and she was still casual and holding back without killing Intent until after the steam release feat.

This is dishonest, Kaguya was not notably weaker until after she used Amenominaka a third time and had gone serious as TheFinalOrder said: "she was still casual and holding back without killing Intent until after the steam release feat. " (The steam release feat occurs before the fist statement that Kaguya is getting weaker and after she stopped holding back according to TheFinalOrder's own words here.)

Also, Kaguya getting angry at Naruto and yelling "This is my Time-Space! You are powerless here!" with an angered face does not describe someone casual.

• Kaguya later destroyed Saauke PS when she has Killing Intent and even then, he could fight her 1 v 1 with PS while Naruto was worried about Obito. You cannot compare what she did when she was extremely casual versus trying to kill someone. This is why your Kaguya argument is extremely faulty.

Now TheFinalOrder is contradicting himself, he said:

>Towards the end as she got weaker, Naruto was barely able to hurt her. You claim he overpowered her, sure, but that was a enhancement technique and it didn't even bruise her.

That Kaguya getting weaker is why Naruto could hurt her, yet here he is saying a weaker Kaguya is now making herself stronger? It's not a consistent argument. Kaguya destroyed Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o when she was already weakened, TheFinalOrder said so himself that she got weaker towards the end.

Zetsu stated that Kaguya uses too much Chakra when shifting the world with Amenominaka. However, Kaguya shifts the dimension two more times after that statement. In fact, Zetsu said Kaguya was already weakened before she shifted the dimension that second time after Zetsu made the initial warning.

So, even if Kaguya had "killing intent" (hard to tell when she has the same face always and same statements), she was still massively weakened when she four shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. Plus, she even had her arm torn off right before she four shot the Susano'o. She was incredibly weakened and she still made Sasuke foder.

• Naruto ripping off her arm is an Outlier, yes, an outlier. Naruto nor Sasuke could so much as bruise Kaguya, then out of the blue, Naruto is capable of it? What scaling, what feat? What justification do you to prove Naruto ripping off her arm is a legitament feat? From the time she was introduced to this point, they couldn't hurt her, what do you have to make us believe this is a legitament feat?

As I explained above, Kaguya was massively weakened per Zetu's words and Kaguya's actions of using Amenominaka too many times. Plus, Naruto tore off her arm out of anger due to Zetsu's negative remarks about Obito. An actual "killing intent" Naruto tearing off a weakened Kaguya's arm is solid feat.

• So far, you haven't proven anything, so no, there is no "In Conclusion" from you that's at all legitimate.

Conclusion

• The Limbo did not physically hit Sasuke, it is an assumption to believe this due to lack of evidence; however, there is panel positioning, implication and character positioning that indicate to us that Sasuke only made contact through his Chidori Blade, not his person. The anime plays this scene exactly as the manga panels play out.
• Base Naruto is not equal to SPSM Naruto. SPSM Naruto was keeping up with Kaguya and even overpowering her at times while Kaguya even when weakened, and casual according to TheFinalOrder, still one shot or 4 shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. SPSM Naruto very much would replicate the same thing against Sasuke's Susano'o. Thus the idea that Base Naruto is equal to SPSM Naruto while saying that Sasuke is physically equal to Base Naruto implies that Sasuke is equal in physicals to his Susano'o which is entirely baseless.
• Momoshiki and Kinshiki have next to zero 5-B feats with the rest of their feats being entirely 7-A. Their best feats are when Fused or Momoshiki with Chakra Pills which is an amp for his base, thus not valid for his regular Base. Naruto and Sasuke don't grant them 5-B nor do Momoshiki and Kinshiki grant Naruto and Sasuke 5-B.
• The usage of Boruto's anime as a replacement for the main canon is dishonest. We use supporting canon as the name implies, support. However, if it is contradictory or not consistent, we do not use it. Boruto's Momoshiki arc has events play out differently from the canon manga and contradict it to regards as well, it can not be used as support for this arc.
• The upgrade is not valid and current tiers for characters (Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Fused Momoshiki, the Gokage, Base Naruto and Sasuke's Physicals) need clean up due to not making sense at the moment.

I also don't think we need 100 comments, I can see this will go in circles at this point since I've had to copy and paste some of my argument as they were either missed, ignored or just weren't properly addressed to a point that would debunk them. A conclusion could be reach faster as well before it's copy and paste vs copy and paste. We're barely at the 30's and it's looking to be a circle.

 

[AstralKing7]

We can use authors and writers intent ƒÿæ. Kodachi portrayed Momoshiki as physically 5B bruh and that's a fact. Base Momoshiki scales to SOSP Naruto with his jutsu. People have been going on about base Momoshiki scaling to base Naruto when that shit never happened. Momoshiki knocked out SPSM Naruto and that's what we used to rate Momoshiki.

Also Momoshiki chakra pills is what he fights with. We have plenty of profiles like that on this site.

We also scale durability to AP sometimes and in Momoshikis case this is obviously one of those times and especially with how the functions of taijutsu works. Like seriously are people forgetting what taijutsu is???

It also seems we need another key for Madara cause it seems we didn't make it during the 5B revidioms. Matter of fact, if I remember correctly we combined to of his keys because someone kept having a problem with Madara and his forehead protector and rinne sharingan Madara being basically the same

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

We can use authors and writers intent ƒÿæ. Kodachi portrayed Momoshiki as physically 5B bruh and that's a fact. Base Momoshiki scales to SOSP Naruto with his jutsu. People have been going on about base Momoshiki scaling to base Naruto when that shit never happened. Momoshiki knocked out SPSM Naruto and that's what we used to rate Momoshiki.
Also Momoshiki chakra pills is what he fights with. We have plenty of profiles like that on this site.

7-A, 5-B with Chakra Pills

Would be my proposal for his Base Key. We do have profiles like this, for example Gin Ichimaru from Bleach is tiered: 7-A, 6-C with Buto Renjin.

Obviously the 7-A is a placeholder until we settle on what Base Naruto, the Gokage and what Sasuke physically are rated when we are done in this thread. And if the 6-B calc is accepted and applied.

 

[BlackeJan]

@IMade

U just contradict yourself. U said that the Gyuki fight was offscreen then say that he lost cause of Momos counters like what? and also where did u get that Gyuki has weakness to blades? unless u have links to it being said then it's nothing but assumption and headcannon. Gyuki did take damage from whatever happens during the fight, I went back at the pic u posted and it shows little scratch lines on his body (u seriously can't miss it it's clear as day). How u gonna day that supporting anime here doesn't work cause it contradicts??? The whole arc was full of terrible writing that I've seen people say/comment online about how it made no sense especially when it came to the Kages.

I want an answer to this (and it needs to actually make sense and be good) but how do u disprove of the fact that Base Naruto isn't 5B but Fused Momo is and Bass Naruto/Sasuke could take hits and such? even in the manga they clashed their forearm and Naruto didn't even scream in pain or nothing like that, he was actually fine. Not only that but it was said that both Momo/Kinshiki is a bigger threat then Kaguya (was proved when SOSP/RinneSharigan fought Momo so that means Naruto/Sasuke gotten stronger) and don't play that "those words shouldn't be taken into account" and give some comparison like last time cause that would be like saying how people say Frieza is a big threat but I have a chance to beat him as an ordinary human

1). Fused Momo = 5B for fighting two other 5Bs

2). Base Naruto/Sasuke could take hits/ not get one shotted

3). Naruto put all his chakra into Borutos Rasengan and it demolished Fused Momo (don't forget but SOSP/RinneSharigan were lol beating Fused Momo) + when SOSP Naruto was holding back the giant ball that Momo had created at the tournament before he was captured, it was said iirc from Sasuke that he had held back because he didn't want to put the citizens in danger if he went all out

4). Base Sasuke was able to get hits from black iron rods and still (slightly) move + used a regular Chidori and it had hurt/stinged Momo

5). We have a calc that has Base Naruto = 6B so I don't know how "7A is consistent" when we have a higher tier from someone (please don't try to act like it doesn't exist)

EDIT: I can understand if yur arguing for no 5B Base Naruto cause of the inconsistency in the arc but do know that the 7A thing is something that NO one agrees with

EDIT 2: if I sounded rude then let me know. I don't wish to get anyone mad here and all. Just saying though the 6B calc was indeed accepted it's just they we labeled Naruto Unknown cause of the whole fiasco with Naruto golden chakra and his transformation being golden (yes I was there and @Nedge1000 had also payed it in last thread that it was indeed accepted)

EDIT 3: this is actually going a bit smoothly....I like it

 

[Mindovin]

@IMade

There is a reason this site differentiate between travel, combat and reaction speed. You can't use Momoshiki and Kinshiki's arrival as a reason.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I'm going to respond to IMade, definitely, but just so everyone knows, IMade is only arguing against Base Naruto and Sasuke being 5-B Physically. Base Naruto still scales to 5-B with Ninjutsu from Sasuke and for supplying the Chakra that Killed Momoshiki who has 5-B Durability.

 

[AstralKing7]

I'm still tryna figure when we stopped scaling chakra control to physical abilities

Also the fight with Gyuki happened in the anime. We take what happened before the chunin exams as full canon if I remember correctly. We do see the whole fight from Kodachi in the anime.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I do want to address 2 points he made though for now:


*You catagorize stuff, sure, but that doesn't excuse you ignoring arguments and feats.

• You claim you posted all of Momoshiki's feats, but you didn't. You jump from Shikamaru holding them back straight to The Biju Bomb Feat. Completely ignoring his 5-B feats agsinst SPSM Naruto, amped by Sasuke's Chakra. I Even screenshotted your "response" in my response to it, you need to read your own posts, bro...In addition to this, you ignore the fact Momoshiki is Portrayed by Kishimoto on the Movie to Damage PS and Kyuubi Avatar and. The same for the Anime and Kodachi.

• I wasn't mistaken, you're not providing context, you're providing headconon and pushing it as proof. You yourself state as well that the fight was off-screen, there is no indication that Momoshiki that Momoshiki attacked KB until the Biju Dama, that is a baseless assumption on your part and you have have no proof he did as the fight was off-screen. We know the weapons used to pin him to the mountain are Kinshiki's as addressed in the OP implying Kinshiki fought him. The context of the scene (Btw it's Boruto Chapter 2, pages 42-End) is that KB was defeated casually, that's all. This notion is supported by the fact Momoshiki simply watched Kinshiki fight Sasuke and did not get involved setting precedence in the Manga for him allowing Kinshiki to fight specific battles unaided. So....your wrong, obviously, and your argument contradicts itself. And you ignored the Biju Dama feat (Them tanking it).

Your arguments imply you did not read the OP. You realize that, right?


*I'm not being misleading here at all actually. Naruto gave the cloaks and Shikamaru used his shadow binding on Juubi, and Juubi was affected by it. This is before the others aid him. What's misleading about this exactly? Is that not what happened? And quote me correctly next time, I said "It affected Juubi", not that it held Juubi. And this is just one instance of Shadow Binding being BS and inconsistent throughout the series. So yes, him holding Kinshiki and Momoshiki is BS. Plain and simple, just another inconsistent feat on his part.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I'm still tryna figure when we stopped scaling chakra control to physical abilities
Also the fight with Gyuki happened in the anime. We take what happened before the chunin exams as full canon if I remember correctly. We do see the whole fight from Kodachi in the anime.

We take Nue Arc - Graduation and Chocho Arc as Canon. Gaiden Manga takes precedence over the Anime Arc. Everything else is just Supporting Canon, specifically in regards to the portrayal of the characters. The Events and happenings aren't accepted as canon.

 

[Omimi]

sasuke still 5-B with sword and chidori/ninjutsu (and momo and kin scale from this)

and he also has 1 low 5-B+ calc for AP

calling 7-A feat from 1 movie/arc consistent is wrong and no one agree

kage fight is PIS just accept it already

otherwise u are saying kage AP > sasuke AP

kage could cut kin but sasuke cant

even pain arc naruto is 7-A

7-A god tier will never happen cuz no one agree with it

base/fused /Momoshiki 5-B feat

• Created a dimension parallel to Naruto's earth
• statement that momo is above kaguya

• tank sasuke sword which cut madara in half easily

• tank a punch from RSM naruto

• destroy sasuke susano in movie

• sasuke CT fail to seal him

base/rinnagan sauke low-5-B/5-B feats(excluding feats that happen against momo)

• he has 10.4 zt (low 5-B+) for moon moving feats
• Base sasuke tank an attack from limbo

• sasuke Pierces through madara with sword

• sasuke Casually bisects madara with chidori variant

base/BM naruto low-5-B(excluding feat against sasuke & momo)

• base rasangan with hinata has Low 5-B feats for destroying Tenseiga

• naruto tank 5-C+/low 5-B Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosio

• base/BM naruto 1 shot Low 5-B Toneri
• he has 10.4 zt(low 5-B+) for moon moving feats ( when moon moving feat happen he was in base so it should be his base feat)

Kinshiki 5-B feats

• Planet splitting statement in the guidebook
• Tanking a stabbing / thrusting motion from Sasuke's Chidori sword
• Keeping up with Sasuke

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@BlackeJan

@IMade U just contradict yourself. U said that the Gyuki fight was offscreen then say that he lost cause of Momos counters like what?
I never contradicted myself. I said the Gyuki fight was offscreen and that Momoshiki laid the final hit with a counter to Gyuki via absorbing the Bijuudama. If you are lost, please read my comments from the start.

and also where did u get that Gyuki has weakness to blades? unless u have links to it being said then it's nothing but assumption and headcannon.
Headcanon? Perhaps look before making accusations?

Gyuki getting it's tail cut off by the rated Unknown to 7-A Sasuke at the time.

Tails cut off again by launched large shuriken.

Easily pierced by black rod Chakra receivers.

He's notably weak to bladed weaponry.

Gyuki did take damage from whatever happens during the fight, I went back at the pic u posted and it shows little scratch lines on his body (u seriously can't miss it it's clear as day).
There is no visible damage on Gyuki in any scan during this fight.

How u gonna day that supporting anime here doesn't work cause it contradicts??? The whole arc was full of terrible writing that I've seen people say/comment online about how it made no sense especially when it came to the Kages.
Are you saying that people's statement online is proof? You know that's a fallacy, right? How about you get me some actual scans of the manga instead of some "say so" of people online.

I want an answer to this (and it needs to actually make sense and be good) but how do u disprove of the fact that Base Naruto isn't 5B but Fused Momo is
If you read my first and second comments you would understand:

Fused Momoshiki is Kinda 5-B:
Fused Momoshiki is the only one who actually displays some 5-B feats, but not in all stats.

• Post-Kinshiki Absorption Momoshiki no-sells a sword swing from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke.
• An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.
• Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well.Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.
• Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.
• Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi.
• Trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle.
• Adult Base Naruto shifting to Sage of Six Paths immediately overwhelms Momoshikiand Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Naruto while being in visible pain.
• Soon after, Sasuke sends Momoshiki flying back with a punch, although Momoshiki shows no pain nor surprise like with Naruto.
• Momoshiki's Lava Golem overpowers Kurama.
• Lava Golem is easily defeated by Susano'o Clad Kurama.
• Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
• A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks Momoshiki's Jutsu as well.
• Kicks Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke away.
• Stabbed by Boruto.
• Momoshiki has his Bijuudama overpowered and is killed by a Cho Odama Rasenga made by Base Naruto.

The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.

So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.

Before you reply back, please actually read my comment, open my scans and bring your own counter scans.

and Bass Naruto/Sasuke could take hits and such? even in the manga they clashed their forearm and Naruto didn't even scream in pain or nothing like that, he was actually fine.
Fused Momoshiki does not have 5-B striking strength. Naruto and Sasuke clashing during the VotE 2 isn't a feat for either since they're just equal at physicals at base above 7-A.

Not only that but it was said that both Momo/Kinshiki is a bigger threat then Kaguya (was proved when SOSP/RinneSharigan fought Momo so that means Naruto/Sasuke gotten stronger) and don't play that "those words shouldn't be taken into account" and give some comparison like last time cause that would be like saying how people say Frieza is a big threat but I have a chance to beat him as an ordinary Human
You really need to read previous comments before commenting and entering the discussion, you're making my repeat myself:

Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being a Greater Threat Than Kaguya Isn't an AP Statement
There are two blatant reasons the statement isn't translatable to AP:

• We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
• Being a threat is not translatable to AP or Durability. I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.

1). Fused Momo = 5B for fighting two other 5Bs
Fused Momoshiki doesn't enter a fist fight with two 5-Bs. I posted every single Fused Momoshiki feat above and the only 5-B interactions he has were being hit by a 5-B and his Lava Golem overpowering a 5-B. That is all: The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.

So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.

2). Base Naruto/Sasuke could take hits/ not get one shotted
That's because Fused Momoshiki has no 5-B striking feats.

3). Naruto put all his chakra into Borutos Rasengan and it demolished Fused Momo (don't forget but SOSP/RinneSharigan were lol beating Fused Momo) + when SOSP Naruto was holding back the giant ball that Momo had created at the tournament before he was captured, it was said iirc from Sasuke that he had held back because he didn't want to put the citizens in danger if he went all out
You mixed and matched two feats into one that have nothing to do with each other. However, that's not a regular Rasengan and we're talking about a weakened Fused Momoshiki who previously couldn't even move and had to asborb some Ninjutsu and took some Chakra Pills to boost himself from his incapacitated state that Naruto and Sasuke left him in.

4). Base Sasuke was able to get hits from black iron rods and still (slightly) move + used a regular Chidori and it had hurt/stinged Momo
Sasuke is never hit by black rods. The entire fight is in Chapter 8 and 9. Not once is Sasuke hit by black rods. The Chidori Sasuke uses on Momoshiki did nothing. Momoshiki doesn't grunt in pain nor even receive an injury.

5). We have a calc that has Base Naruto = 6B so I don't know how "7A is consistent" when we have a higher tier from someone (please don't try to act like it doesn't exist)
You need to get that calc applied before trying to use it.

EDIT: I can understand if yur arguing for no 5B Base Naruto cause of the inconsistency in the arc but do know that the 7A thing is something that NO one agrees with
If no one agreed with the 7-A tiering then why do more people agree with me? You can hit CTRL + F and type "agree with IMade" in the previous thread and you will find multiple people agreeing with me. This is such a blatant attempt at controlling the narrative. And you keep getting hung up on 7-A which I've repeatedly explained:

The 7-A Rating is a Placeholder
I've only been saying 7-A because that is the current highest rated Kage that Momoshiki and Kinshiki fought (Gaara at 7-A since Naruto's Base is still currently tiered as Unknown. Darui's last key was 7-C while Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have no profiles). If we somehow prove Gaara to be above 7-A or do decide that Base Naruto is above 7-A and perhaps 6-B through his unapplied 6-B calc, then we could put Base Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, Kage Gaara, Kage Darui, Kage Chojuro and Kage Kurotsuchi at 6-B as well since they are consistent in fighting each other.

Please read the thread before attempting to try to counter my argument.

EDIT 2: if I sounded rude then let me know. I don't wish to get anyone mad here and all. Just saying though the 6B calc was indeed accepted it's just they we labeled Naruto Unknown cause of the whole fiasco with Naruto golden chakra and his transformation being golden (yes I was there and @Nedge1000 had also payed it in last thread that it was indeed accepted)
You need to get that calc applied first. An unapplied calc is not usable in an argument.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@IMade
There is a reason this site differentiate between travel, combat and reaction speed. You can't use Momoshiki and Kinshiki's arrival as a reason.

Read what I previously wrote:

• TFO's Comment: His flight speed is shit and and has no relevancy here. Why are you bringing it up?

My Reply: Because it shows how overestimated Momoshiki and Kinshiki currently are.

• TFO's Comment: Momoshiki can perceive Sasuke and Kinshiki's fights bro, yes, he can dodge Naruto who can only react to Sasuke and his amped form. You point in mentioning this is...?

My Reply: Indicator that these characters are overestimated in their stats. Plus, I said I would label all their feats to be transparent and provide full context, apparently TheFinalOrder missed this when I said it. I prefer to be honest and not leave out info.

• TFO's Comment: Momoshiki nor Kinshiki have notible flight speed bro...it's shit and in no way comparable to Madara's. So Darui catching up isn't anything to right home about dude. It wasn't notible to begin with.

My Reply: It definitely wasn't notable, but flight speed is Momoshiki's method of travel and would be an indication that Momoshiki is not capable of blitzing characters that have decent reaction speed. Momoshiki and Kinishiki are currently labeled as Relativistic | Relativistic (Kept up with Naruto and Sasuke) which should be edited for their Base forms as well since they don't display such speed and have consistent lower speed feats to say so.

I bring it up for a reason, for full context since I said I would provide all feats and as indication of how overestimated the current Momoshiki and Kinshiki profiles are at the moment.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I'm going to respond to IMade, definitely, but just so everyone knows, IMade is only arguing against Base Naruto and Sasuke being 5-B Physically. Base Naruto still scales to 5-B with Ninjutsu from Sasuke and for supplying the Chakra that Killed Momoshiki who has 5-B Durability.

This is my heads-up to you, which I shouldn't be giving you since I already told you I disagree in the previous thread, but I still disagree with anything 5-B Base Naruto, it is Sasuke who I keep specifying on physically; however, even Sasuke is only 5-B with some specific Ninjutsu and Naruto's Chakra defeating Fused Momoshiki wouldn't be 5-B due to Momoshiki having been nerfed at that moment.

• You catagorize stuff, sure, but that doesn't excuse you ignoring arguments and feats.

I literally quoted every single word of your comment, I didn't ignore anything.

• You claim you posted all of Momoshiki's feats, but you didn't. You jump from Shikamaru holding them back straight to The Biju Bomb Feat. Completely ignoring his 5-B feats agsinst SPSM Naruto, amped by Sasuke's Chakra. I Even screenshotted your "response" in my response to it, you need to read your own posts, bro...In addition to this, you ignore the fact Momoshiki is Portrayed by Kishimoto on the Movie to Damage PS and Kyuubi Avatar and. The same for the Anime and Kodachi.

I included all that in Momoshiki's Chakra Ball feat against SPSM Naruto. It's all scanned there:

• Momoshiki makes Sage of Six Paths Naruto struggle with his Bijuudama. What is noteworthy is Momoshiki had literally absorbed several Jutsu and taken several pills to amp his power before making the Bijuudama. Yet, it was still weaker than Sage of Six Paths Naruto's Bijuudama. So a massively amped Momoshiki's AP < Sage of Six Paths Naruto's AP.

I guess I could also include Amped Momoshiki's AP < SPSM Naruto + Sasuke's Chakra combined Durability given that Momoshiki doesn't penetrate the Kurama head.

The movie isn't canon, so there is no point in bringing it up. The anime's events aren't canon, they're adaptions of the canon manga.

• I wasn't mistaken, you're not providing context, you're providing headconon and pushing it as proof. You yourself state as well that the fight was off-screen, there is no indication that Momoshiki that Momoshiki attacked KB until the Biju Dama, that is a baseless assumption on your part and you have have no proof he did as the fight was off-screen. We know the weapons used to pin him to the mountain are Kinshiki's as addressed in the OP implying Kinshiki fought him. The context of the scene (Btw it's Boruto Chapter 2, pages 42-End) is that KB was defeated casually, that's all. This notion is supported by the fact Momoshiki simply watched Kinshiki fight Sasuke and did not get involved setting precedence in the Manga for him allowing Kinshiki to fight specific battles unaided. So....your wrong, obviously, and your argument contradicts itself. And you ignored the Biju Dama feat (Them tanking it). Your arguments imply you did not read the OP. You realize that, right?

Nothing says it was casual and nothing says Momoshiki didn't help.

This scan is the only context of the entire fight.

Gyuki is pinned to the walls by Kinshiki's blades but both Momoshiki and Kinshiki are flying above Gyuki, nothing to prove that it was solely Kinshiki that incapacitated Gyuki.

Upon arriving in Konoha, Momoshiki immediately assaults Naruto. Thus, the notion of Momoshiki always sitting back is not valid.

So my argument does not contradict itself, this also wasn't an argument. It was me posting context of all Momoshiki and Kinshiki feats for transparency. I didn't leave out them tanking the Chakra Ball because they don't tank it. As you can see, the smoke clouds are under Momoshiki and Kinshiki, they weren't in the blast radius. It seems like a good indicator that a 6-C's attack doubled is a bit too much for their Base.

• I'm not being misleading here at all actually. Naruto gave the cloaks and Shikamaru used his shadow binding on Juubi, and Juubi was affected by it. This is before the others aid him. What's misleading about this exactly? Is that not what happened? And quote me correctly next time, I said "It affected Juubi", not that it held Juubi. And this is just one instance of Shadow Binding being BS and inconsistent throughout the series. So yes, him holding Kinshiki and Momoshiki is BS. Plain and simple, just another inconsistent feat on his part.

Here's a screenshot, I quoted you correctly. Your original complaint was:

• Here we go with the Shikamaru BS...Dude, you can miss me with that. Shikamaru stopping vastly stronger people than him with it has been BS for the longest. He alone, amped with a Kyuubi Cloak that amps him 5x at best even Affects the Juubi. Stop it bro, it's inconsistent for him, everyone knows it.

You specified Shikamaru stopping people vastly stronger than him, but he doesn't stop the Juubi as you even specified of me to quote you correctly. All Shikamaru does is get the Juubi's attention, he doesn't stop the Juubi at all. And then again, this wasn't a base Shikamaru, this was an amped Shikamaru who received Naruto's Kyuubi Cloak. All who were given a Kyubi Cloak begin holding back the Juubi. So Kyuubi Cloak characters were heavily amped.

On top of this, Shikamaru doesn't even hold down the Juubi with Shadow Paraylsis, this feat occurs on Chapter 616 and this page of Shikamaru is page 17 of that chapter, and literally the next page is Shikamaru needing the assistance of 4 other members of his clan (all with Kyubi Cloaks as well) to actually immobilize the Juubi.

Even then, it was still quite difficult for the 5 Nara members to hold the Juubi as they were physically straining.

So Shikamaru stopping Kinshiki and Momoshiki isn't BS, especially since Kinshiki and Momoshiki's consistent feats are not far from Shikamaru's (he's Tier 7 as well).

A heavily amped Shikamaru with 4 other characters also heavily amped physically strained to hold the Juubi. This does not disprove Shikamaru holding Kinshiki and Momoshiki who have a current consistency of Tier 7 and Low 6 feats.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@Omimi

sasuke still 5-B with sword and chidori/ninjutsu (and momo and kin scale from this)


Sasuke With the Kusanagi Blade Isn't 5-B Neither:
Althought not mentioned in the OP, the Kusanagi Blade that Sasuke uses is for some reason being incorrectly labeled as 5-B by those in support of this upgrade since it pierced a 5-B Madara and Adult Sage of Six Paths Naruto. There are several blatant issues with this:

1) The Kusanagi in the War Arc is not the same Kusanagi in Boruto. They are different blades.

2) Sasuke doesn't physically pierce a 5-B Madara with the Kusanagi Blade. Sasuke used Amenotejikara to switch places with his Kusanagi Blade and Madara flew into it.

3) The Kusanagi Blade alone cannot be 5-B unless we now scale everyone that interacted with it to 5-B:

• Apparently Zabuza's Executioner Blade is 5-B for not chipping when clashing with the Kusanagi Blade.
• Apparently either Bee is 5-B physically at base or his blades are just 5-B somehow.
• Apparently the Raikage's Raiton Armor is 5-B since the Kusanagi Blade repelled from hitting it head on.

There are a lot more instances, but it's quite clear that the Kusanagi Blade is not 5-B, it would make absolutely no sense if it were, especially that somehow Sasuke had access to 5-B metals to make his blade in the late chapter 200's of Naruto.

and he also has 1 low 5-B+ calc for AP
The 10.4zt is not applicable to Base Sasuke nor his casual AP. We're talking about physical Base Sasuke in this thread. This calc result is Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke with a Jutsu that isn't anywhere near his regular arsenal, especially since the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was not made of Sasuke's own Chakra, it was made of Hagoromo's Chakra.

Hagoromo literally states that he gave away his Chakra which we know was to Naruto and Sasuke and it was explicitly for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei Jutsu as Kaguya points out. Sasuke already used that Chakra up.

Not applicable.

calling 7-A feat from 1 movie/arc consistent is wrong and no one agree
Supporters don't agree, but several people do. There were more disagreements with the downgrade and more agreements with my comments than actual agreements with the upgrade. You can hit CTRL + F and type "agree with IMade" in the previous thread and you will find multiple people agreeing with me. This is such a blatant attempt at controlling the narrative. And you keep getting hung up on 7-A which I've repeatedly explained:

The 7-A Rating is a Placeholder
I've only been saying 7-A because that is the current highest rated Kage that Momoshiki and Kinshiki fought (Gaara at 7-A since Naruto's Base is still currently tiered as Unknown. Darui's last key was 7-C while Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have no profiles). If we somehow prove Gaara to be above 7-A or do decide that Base Naruto is above 7-A and perhaps 6-B through his unapplied 6-B calc, then we could put Base Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, Kage Gaara, Kage Darui, Kage Chojuro and Kage Kurotsuchi at 6-B as well since they are consistent in fighting each other.

Please read the thread before attempting to try to counter my argument.

kage fight is PIS just accept it already
Base Naruto being 5-B is an outlier, just accept it already. Do you see how unconstructive of an argument that is. It doesn't prove anything nor persuade anyone.

otherwise u are saying kage AP > sasuke AP
I'm not saying that, but you can if you want to.

kage could cut kin but sasuke cant
Sasuke could cut Kinshiki's horn off.

even pain arc naruto is 7-A
Sage Mode Pain Arc Naruto is 7-A. Base Naruto was last tiered at 7-C for the first 300 chapters of Part 2.

7-A god tier will never happen cuz no one agree with it
You mean supporters don't agree with it because it would be a downgrade and not an upgrade?

[/B] The sword piercing Madara and Naruto is an outlier. Same sword, enhanced by Sasuke's chakra can't even cut through Raikage's V1 Chakra Cloak.[/URL]

That's not a physical feat, the scaling of this upgrade is physicals.

base/BM naruto low-5-B(excluding feat against sasuke & momo)

• base rasangan with hinata has Low 5-B feats for destroying Tenseiga

This calc wasn't accepted nor applied. What is with supporters of this upgrades bringing up unaccepted and unapplie calcs?

• naruto tank 5-C+/low 5-B Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosio

This isn't Base.

• base/BM naruto 1 shot Low 5-B Toneri

It wasn't Base since he concentrated his Chakra into his fist.

• he has 10.4 zt(low 5-B+) for moon moving feats ( when moon moving feat happen he was in base so it should be his base feat)

We're talking about physical Base Sasuke in this thread. This calc result is Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke with a Jutsu that isn't anywhere near his regular arsenal, especially since the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was not made of Sasuke's own Chakra, it was made of Hagoromo's Chakra.

Hagoromo literally states that he gave away his Chakra which we know was to Naruto and Sasuke and it was explicitly for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei Jutsu as Kaguya points out. Sasuke already used that Chakra up.

Not applicable.

Kinshiki 5-B feats

• Planet splitting statement in the guidebook

1) The Guidebook is about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.

2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.

3) We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once in a non-canon guidebook and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.

• Tanking a stabbing / thrusting motion from Sasuke's Chidori sword

This does happen.

• Keeping up with Sasuke

Sasuke isn't 5-B so this doesn't make sense, plus Kinshiki has numerous more feats of struggling with the 7-A Gokage.

 

[Kepekley23]

I completely and utterly disagree with Base Naruto/Sasuke/Toneri being, in any way, 5-B or higher.

Hope that's clear enough for the OP.

Why is the OP even focusing on my words instead of the debate, anyway?

 

[BlackeJan]

I completely and utterly disagree with Base Naruto/Sasuke/Toneri being, in any way, 5-B or higher.

Hope that's clear enough for the OP.

Why is the OP even focusing on my words instead of the debate, anyway?

Ok then lets talk about Fused Momo being 5B cause of other two 5Bs and that Base Naruto/Base Sasuke was able to take hits and all that junk that I've have said before? plz explain on that if u may

 

[AstralKing7]

I had just typed up a response but I accidentally deleted it so imma just say this. 5B Momoshiki has been accepted for months and even by Kep. Make a crt for all of his stats cause they are not overestimated. In fact Imade you are clearly downplaying Kinshiki and Momoshiki. Kinshiki being below rel is utter BS. Kinshiki was able to keep up with Sasuke in a almost a full on battle. Matter of fact he was so fast until he almost blitzed and killed Sasuke but he evaded it by switching places...so you see what I mean by downplay??

Make the crt

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I'm gonna need to put this thread on pause. I'm dealing with a phone here and I cannot continue wasting my time, typing responses to walls of texts without a computer. Arguments being made are absolutely horrendous and illogical, but I cannot adequately respond to them and keep up with simply a phone.

@Pachi or Any Mod, can we close this thread for the time being? As I am the OP and the main one debating, I need time to get to a computer to continue this discussion. I have responses to be made, but again, not the resources to do so effectively.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Since this thread's hiatus, we've had further proof that Base Naruto is not 5-B, thus that those that interact with him (or scale with him) are not 5-B as well, like Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Sasuke (physically) and Fused Momoshiki in striking:

In Boruto Chapter 29, Boruto spars with Base Naruto to and ask Naruto to not go easy which Naruto says he won't. Naruto then proceeds to down on Boruto and his clones and admits he wasn't going easy. But this isn't the only instance in this chapter.

Boruto then activates Karma and starts surprising Naruto while also keeping up with him in 1v1 (no clones). Boruto then uses a Lightning Style Arrow jutsu that Base Naruto perceives so much as a threat that Naruto uses a clones to take the hit instead of himself and it even one shots the clone.

Base Naruto and those who scale are nowhere near 5-B.

I'll also link back to my last comments which were never replied back to or countered since the thread was closed:

My comment to BlackeJan.

My comment to Mindovin.

My comment to TheFinalOrder.

My comment to Omimi.

 

[AstralKing7]

Bruh u using Boruto to disagree with the 5B scaling ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

That fight was practically PIS cause Naruto is nowhere near 8A in Base