Naruto UES thing

[XXKINGXX69]

Currently it is accepted that Chakra is a form of universal energy system, and on the profile it says

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Since Pain uses chakra for chibaku tensei, his durability and other stats should scale to island level as well and should apply to other characters in the series with similar feats, or the UES page needs to be edited

 

[Sus]

No

 

[Sus]

Note: The attempts to make Kaguya scale to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball were rejected many times before. The primary reason is because this attack required an amount of chakra far greater than her own chakra, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke who only possess half of Hagoromo's chakra each.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Then the UES page needs to be edited

 

[Noneless21]

I thought this is a Low 2-C upgrade thread haah

 

[KLOL506]

Then the UES page needs to be edited

Why would the UES page need to be edited when we are shown that the ETSB does not come from Kaguya's own chakra but rather the chakra from other people? This is just silly. Not everyone has the same chakra level to be able to pull off bonkers feats like Kaguya's.

Just because you have an energy source that amps both physicals and supernaturals and that everyone else uses the same power source, doesn't mean your own energy source get to scale to other people's energy source's feats or potency without proper, concise powerscaling or mastery over said power source. That's not how it works.

 

[KLOL506]

@UchihaSlayer96 @Lightning_XXI @Arc7Kuroi @KingTempest

 

[KLOL506]

Not only that, everyone using the same power source was reduced to being a supporting point to prove an energy source amping both physicals and supernaturals. How widespread it is within a verse, was deemed to be irrelevant, but rather a heavier emphasis on its mechanics of operation was placed.

 

[KLOL506]

TL;DR, just because y'all share the same power source and the same mechanics that allow one to scale both supernatural powers and physical strength to the same power level, doesn't mean you automatically scale to someone stronger than you in that regard using the same exact power source with the same exact mechanics. This is because 1. They might have much bigger energy reserves than you and 2. They may even have better mastery of the power source than you do, allowing them to efficiently dish out said damage with no loss in energy.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Oof yeah KLOL really captured the essence of this when he said we don’t scale Kaguya to it because it required her to absorb IT chakra. We also don’t default to every jutsu scaling to physicals as that is heavily contradicted in the series. Lastly, you’d have to remove the current discussion rule if you wanted to continue this thread.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

We also don’t default to every jutsu scaling to physicals as that is heavily contradicted in the series.

Which means that chakra isn't UES and should be removed from the page, or UES needs to be slightly edited and say something like "unless shown otherwise e.g Naruto characters...)

 

[KLOL506]

Which means that chakra isn't UES and should be removed from the page

This is grossly incorrect.

An energy source can scale physicals to supernatural attacks normally depending on the effort used for said attacks and still have an Ultimate Attack that scales way above their usual operating levels, and it can still remain a UES. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NEW. Just ask Goku and his Spirit Bomb.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

This is grossly incorrect.

An energy source can scale physicals to supernatural attacks normally depending on the effort used for said attacks and still have an Ultimate Attack that scales way above their usual operating levels, and it can still remain a UES. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NEW. Just ask Goku and his Spirit Bomb.

The UES page literally says the opposite

That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[Damage3245]

No, UES doesn't mean we have to do this at all.

This is so insanely stupid, it would be like treating all of Naruto's jutsu from his miniature Rasengan to his biggest Biju Bomb as being the same potency because it's the same energy system.

Likewise we would not automatically assume that a character's physicals scale to their most powerful techniques.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No, UES doesn't mean we have to do this at all.

This is so insanely stupid, it would be like treating all of Naruto's jutsu from his miniature Rasengan to his biggest Biju Bomb as being the same potency because it's the same energy system.

Likewise we would not automatically assume that a character's physicals scale to their most powerful techniques.

So you agree the UES page needs to be edited?

 

[KLOL506]

The UES page literally says the opposite

Incorrect yet again. None of these attacks are stated in the page to be Ultimate attacks that require more effort to pull off than these regular Building level fireball/water spell.

 

[KLOL506]

So you agree the UES page needs to be edited?

No. Common sense dictates that these attacks mentioned as examples in the UES page are not Ultimate attacks. This was discussed in extensive detail in the CRT where the page was made.

 

[Damage3245]

So you agree the UES page needs to be edited?

I don't care what the UES page says. I just want to see common sense being used when it comes to revisions.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Incorrect yet again. None of these attacks are stated in the page to be Ultimate attacks that require more effort to pull off than these regular Building level fireball/water spell.

No. Common sense dictates that these attacks mentioned as examples in the UES page are not Ultimate attacks. This was discussed in extensive detail in the CRT where the page was made.

Then it needs to be said in the UES page that attacks that require more effort to pull than regular energy attacks wouldn't count. It might have been discussed in the CRT but it should be on the page as well to avoid any confusion

 

[KLOL506]

Then it needs to be said in the UES page that attacks that require more effort to pull than regular energy attacks wouldn't count. It might have been discussed in the CRT but it should be on the page as well to avoid any confusion

Pretty sure this would need to be dealt with on a case-by-casis as was discussed in the original UES CRT but as you wish.

@DarkDragonMedeus What wording would you propose for this? Does this work?

"Some characters making use of a energy source that amplifies both physical strength and supernatural attacks to the same power level, may also have a special attack maneuver far more powerful than their usual showings that require more effort than their usual attacks, however this does not necessarily debunk the energy source being universal. As for scaling said attack to physicals, this will need to be determined on a case-by-case basis."

"Bear in mind that this can also be applicable to Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy Systems where one supernatural attack move is much stronger than the rest of the supernatural attacks".

 

[Reiner04]

I thought this is a Low 2-C upgrade thread haah

We are on the same boat for this hasty generalisation

 

[Noneless21]

We are on the same boat for this hasty generalisation

I want another Alexander but I guess things ain't that easy

btw, if you guys didn't get the point, I'm gooning so just leave me alone

 

[Reiner04]

Well the UES page straight says that it has to be "output", any kind of external factor affecting said character shouldn't be taken in account unless it's causing a permanent change rather than temporary.

 

[KLOL506]

Also there is no High 4-C, creating a dimension with a Sun in it is now 4-C, but they don't scale to that either. The ETSB scales to something much higher, blowing up the Sun from an Earth-sized planet, which is 4-B.

 

[KingTempest]

They pretty much said it

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also there is no High 4-C, creating a dimension with a Sun in it is now 4-C, but they don't scale to that either. The ETSB scales to something much higher, blowing up the Sun from an Earth-sized planet, which is 4-B.

ETSO gets its rating from creation since it’s destruction is EE and thus not really AP

 

[KLOL506]

ETSO gets its rating from creation since it’s destruction is EE and thus not really AP

I see.

 

[KLOL506]

I thought this is a Low 2-C upgrade thread haah

Forgive me and my ignorance but Low 2-C? Dafuq?

Something big happen in Nardverse?

 

[Noneless21]

Forgive me and my ignorance but Low 2-C? Dafuq?

Something big happen in Nardverse?

Alexander moment happen

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure this would need to be dealt with on a case-by-casis as was discussed in the original UES CRT but as you wish.

@DarkDragonMedeus What wording would you propose for this? Does this work?

"Some characters making use of a energy source that amplifies both physical strength and supernatural attacks to the same power level, may also have a special attack maneuver far more powerful than their usual showings that require more effort than their usual attacks, however this does not necessarily debunk the energy source being universal. As for scaling said attack to physicals, this will need to be determined on a case-by-case basis."

"Bear in mind that this can also be applicable to Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy Systems where one supernatural attack move is much stronger than the rest of the supernatural attacks".

I think the wording on page is fine as it is. Though it is also case by case because it is still possible for casual attacks to downscale.

 

[KLOL506]

I think the wording on page is fine as it is.

So the page is best left as is? What happens in case people come down to complain about Ultimate Attacks again?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh, I thought there was another note mentioning it is possible for Limited and Non-Physical attacks to still scale to durability via things other than shared energy systems such as fighting against characters who tank magic spells and later harming them with physical attacks. We could also add the same for final attacks vs casual attacks. Such as opponents withstanding ultimate attacks but later getting harmed by more casual attacks.

If we didn't have either of those, we could add both of those in the notes.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh, I thought there was another note mentioning it is possible for Limited and Non-Physical attacks to still scale to durability via things other than shared energy systems such as fighting against characters who tank magic spells and later harming them with physical attacks.

We could also add the same for final attacks vs casual attacks. Such as opponents withstanding ultimate attacks but later getting harmed by more casual attacks.

Not exactly the issue. Issue is regarding Ultimate Attacks existing and scaling well above both the physicals and supernatural attacks even with a energy system scaling the two to the same power level.

Again, talking explicitly about how a UES can scale physical and supernatural attacks to the same level, how a Non-Physical Energy System can scale all supernatural-only attacks to the same level, and how a Limited Energy System can scale a singular supernatural power's attacks to the same level, and yet how all of them can still also have an Ultimate Attack that scales above these usual showings and requires more effort than usual showings.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't have much time because I have work soon, but may explain later.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't have much time because I have work soon, but may explain later.

Mainly it's an issue about stronger Ultimate Attacks existing alongside normal operating attacks that are relatively low-effort that are already scaled to all stats, both physical and supernatural.

 

[Deceived3596]

Alexander moment happen

Goated threads ong.

But back on topic i disagree with this thread given KLOL's reasoning, you tried King but it didn't work out this time.

 

[Sus]

Just ask Goku and his Spirit Bomb.

THIS

We scale krillin to his 1-into-6 attack because it didn't take much energy

But we don't scale him to his destructo disc because it consistently harms characters stronger than him (same as kaguyas case)

And we don't scale db characters to attacks that need to be charged (spirit bomb or final atonement) which also applies to kaguya

 

[Duedate8898]

Why is Kaguya being brought up here when the OP is about Pain's scaling?

 

[KLOL506]

Why is Kaguya being brought up here when the OP is about Pain's scaling?

Aren't the principles the same that the Chibaku Tensei is wildly above anything Pain can output with the rest of his other attacks normally?

Also like Arc said, not all jutsu have to scale to physicals.

 

[KLOL506]

Also OP was previously talking about Kaguya and High 4-C shenanigans previously.