Naruto tso revision

[Reio35]

Truth seeker orbs do not have existence eraser.


Here hiruzen says it merely turns things to dust. Granted this was before the yin-yang release was added. However yin yang release does not give it eraser properties. It just allows him to nullify ninjustu. I understand tobirama stated it erases things. But this is contradicted many times on panel



Here madara's tso hits the ground and creates dust and fragmentation.


Obitos tso showing vaporization. Obito's staff on the ground yet the ground is not erased


Naruto's tso pulled to the ground in Kaguya's gravity dimension. Yet the ground is not erased. Also here.


So that being said there has not been a single time where tso has erased something. Every time it's either nothing happening or vaporization when it comes into contact with something. Which is consistent with Hiruzen saying it turns things to dust.


Before someone says they can turn it on and off there have been many times where the user had killing intent yet we still don't see vaporization. This ability should also be passive considering it has all naruto types in it. If tso was EE the ground would be erased and no smoke would show.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree, for now.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Here hiruzen says it merely turns things to dust.

It seem like Deconstruction

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Before someone says they can turn it on and off there have been many

IIRC the "On and Off" wasn't for that (EE) but just for the Power-Null due to the whole "Adding Ying-Yang Release"

 

[Reio35]

It seem like Deconstruction

This seems more accurate honestly

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Gonna wait for the Naruto supporters to comment

 

[M3X_2.0]

everyday a TSO revision that won't go through

 

[PrinceofPein]

this will be fun as usual but well we all know how it will go, following

 

[Reio35]

I have the raw translations now and tobirama i actually does not say erased

 

[God900]

Following

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have the raw translations now and tobirama i actually does not say erased

Drop the scans and translations then

 

[Reio35]

Here they use this kanji" 消"which means to extinguish,neutralize ,cancel, turn off or blow out.




掻き消されてはいなかった


うかつに背中に飛ぶと消されかねん

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Here they use this kanji" 消"which means to extinguish,neutralize ,cancel, turn off or blow out.




掻き消されてはいなかった


うかつに背中に飛ぶと消されかねん

This is wrong, you cherry picked a single kanji to translate, when said kanji isn't the full word.

消されかねん is an inflection of 消す, which means "to erase".

Aside, Japanese is not a language you can grasp by translating a single character, often times characters form together to create entirely different words, etc, etc. It's heavily contextual, and you won't grasp said context without translating everything.

 

[Reio35]

This is wrong, you cherry picked a single kanji to translate, when said kanji isn't the full word.

消されかねん is an inflection of 消す, which means "to erase".

Aside, Japanese is not a language you can grasp by translating a single character, often times characters form together to create entirely different words, etc, etc. It's heavily contextual, and you won't grasp said context without translating everything.

Do you have proof for your claims cause i don't see any words for 消されかねん

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Do you have proof for your claims cause i don't see any words for 消されかねん

"I couldn't find anything google searching online" is not a valid response.

It's an inflection of 消す, it's conjugated from the base, it's how the language works. Please refrain from nitpicking a single character within a word to claim it reflects the entire words definition. It'd be like if I took "the" out of "their" to claim "their" meant "the", it's blatantly incorrect.

If you are worried about the validity of my claim, copy my post and the entire sentence into the official translations request thread. Furthermore, unless you have some decent fluency in Japanese, I'd stay away from adopting the "I can accurately translate this with google", because that isn't realistic.

 

[Nierre]

This is wrong, you cherry picked a single kanji to translate, when said kanji isn't the full word.

消されかねん is an inflection of 消す, which means "to erase".

Aside, Japanese is not a language you can grasp by translating a single character, often times characters form together to create entirely different words, etc, etc. It's heavily contextual, and you won't grasp said context without translating everything.

God damn fight back

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I hate to come off arrogant, but to be blunt the way Reio35 attempted to pick out a single character from the entire word in an attempt to define the entire word is flat out wrong. Studying Japanese at university has taught me that much at bare minimum.

 

[Reio35]

I hate to come off arrogant, but to be blunt the way Reio35 attempted to pick out a single character from the entire word in an attempt to define the entire word is flat out wrong. Studying Japanese at university has taught me that much at bare minimum.

The kanji "消されかねん" didn't show up in jisho definitions but this one did 消 so i went with that. Just like people look for the kanji that means universe in Japanese i did the same thing. I looked for the kanji that means erased and didn't see it. I didn't use google translate because the translation came out weird and Im not going to use your translation.But i will post it in official translations.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

消 is just the root.

消す is the actual verb used, that was conjugated in the following form: 消されかねん.

 

[Reio35]

We will see.

Anyway this doesn't take away from my initial premise of tso showing only vaporization and fragmentation. Which means tobirama is exaggerating


The term erased is typically exaggerated in fiction. Madara and obito said they were going to erase naruto. This was before they even had tso

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'll try responding later today....

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I hate to come off arrogant, but to be blunt the way Reio35 attempted to pick out a single character from the entire word in an attempt to define the entire word is flat out wrong. Studying Japanese at university has taught me that much at bare minimum.

I thought it's common policy in wiki to pick a certain word or a phrase.

Anyway following. Somewhat this thread makes sense.

 

[BlackeJan]

Leave it to Reio35 to find a way to downgrade Naruto for reasons that don’t make sense

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Leave it to Reio35 to find a way to downgrade Naruto for reasons that don’t make sense

I agree many things doesn't make sense when a downgrade happens but this thread has some sense unlike other threads I have seen.

 

[God900]

I agree with Reio, even if what Tobirama said about EE is legit, his words are pretty much contradicted, he has a point. Or, your guys just took out of context what "Erased" meant in this case.
For example, many times in Dragon ball people say "I will erase you", yet, what they actually mean by erasing is vaporazing them with a fully charged Ki blast.
So he probably was refering more to a dusty/desconstructive destruction rather than an actual EE.
Otherwise, Tobirama should've said something like "This thing can erase you from existence".

TSO is more like desconstruction than EE

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with Reio, even if what Tobirama said about EE is legit, his words are pretty much contradicted, he has a point. Or, your guys just took out of context what "Erased" meant in this case.
For example, many times in Dragon ball people say "I will erase you", yet, what they actually mean by erasing is vaporazing them with a fully charged Ki blast.
So he probably was refering more to a dusty/desconstructive destruction rather than an actual EE.
Otherwise, Tobirama should've said something like "This thing can erase you from existence".

TSO is more like desconstruction than EE

or the effects of the EE taking place is deconstruction? you know same way someone getting erased can just suddenly disappear or shown to be vaporised e.t.c. it is fiction and the effect of some things taking place are never the same, sorry if this sound rude but wtf is OP saying the tso touched the ground and the ground was not erased? thats dumb tbh.
anyway unless chakra is getting deconstructed or the ninjutsu that are being used is getting deconstructed when it was stated to be able to erase anything that is not nature energy or yin-yang, i dont even see the point of this i will wait for someone else to give a better reply to the OP as i cant be bothered to tbh

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Sigh.....
Well, it's time to give the people what they want.
I have to say, you've really outdone yourself with this one, Reio.

Truth seeker orbs do not have existence eraser.

Hmmmm, you are indeed correct. I've never seen them display any properties of an existence eraser.

Here hiruzen says it merely turns things to dust. Granted this was before the yin-yang release was added.

Thanks for countering your own point, I guess?

However yin yang release does not give it eraser properties. It just allows him to nullify ninjustu.

I guess you're not big on context, eh? This is not Tobirama stating that Yin-Yang Release literally only has the property of nullifying Ninjutsu. Prior to Obito stating that he possesses the same power as Hagoromo, Tobirama and Minato were speculating as to why Minato's arm did not regenerate yet. This was the direct answer to that mystery, so of course they would highlight its ability to nullify Ninjutsu, especially since it was also a brand new ability.
A certain property being highlighted does not in any way negate the existence of other properties, AT ALL. This is an even worse point in the broader context because we know for a fact that Yin-Yang Release has a plethora of effects and uses that were displayed. I explained this in detail in my OP.

I understand tobirama stated it erases things. But this is contradicted many times on panel

Uh, yeah, I guess we'll see about that, won't we?

Here madara's tso hits the ground and creates dust and fragmentation.

Really? This is the best you could come up with? You do realize TSOs physically, tangibly, exist and have mass, right? So them being flung at near Light Speed by characters like Madara would obviously create a physical impact when it makes contact with the ground. There's a reason why characters still use the TSOs as blunt weapons, even when their hax is rendered null and void due to Six Paths resistances. This point is, quite literally, moot.

Obitos tso showing vaporization.

First of all, this is not even vaporization. In the colored version we can clearly that it's just dust, rather than smoke or vapor. This was exactly like the other time Obito's TSO expanded and created a lot of dust. This is, once again, because the TSOs have mass and physical force behind them, regardless of what you believe their hax properties are, so them physically colliding with objects would cause physical destruction. Also, this particular instance is pretty weird given that the "expansion" was blue in color, and was even given a slightly different shading in the manga, implying that maybe it was just an explosion rather than the jet black expansion we saw earlier. If this is indeed the case, then this point is completely null and void since we know that when a TSO is transmuted in any way, it gains completely new/different properties, and possibly lacks ones it had before. (Such as turning into a metal cage, a wind attack, a Chakra Receiver, etc). An explosion would be no different.
It's also VERY important to keep in mind that the TSO's hax are all strictly contact based, meaning they are limited to the TSO's surface area, which is usually very small. Anything beyond its surface area will not be affected by the hax because it's simply not making contact with the balls. This is extremely important to keep in mind moving forward.

Obito's staff on the ground yet the ground is not erased

So? I mean this would literally apply even if the TSOs just had molecular destruction. I don't know why you're treating this like a triumphant anti-feat for EE, when it's just a weird outlier in general. Also, it's pretty dumb to expect Kishimoto to take time out of the important events unfolding at the time to choose to highlight such an insignificant thing as the staff sinking through the floor. Finally, this was a dying Obito that had absorbed a sliver of Madara's chakra. All we know is that he had a vague amount of Six Paths chakra, but he hadn't even showcased any of the TSOs usual properties, or any other Juubi Jin characteristics for that matter, which makes sense because he's not.

Naruto's tso pulled to the ground in Kaguya's gravity dimension. Yet the ground is not erased.

Once again, the TSOs are extremely small, and don't affect anything beyond their tiny surface area. Since you can' show us the exact point in the ground on which they are situated, you cannot prove that the part of the ground they were in contact with did not get erased, or dusted for that matter. Like, honestly your arguments so far have been such nonfactors, it's not even funny.
Also, I have been playing along so far, but I would like to further point out another reason why this whole "they didn't erase the ground they made contact with" argument is super irrelevant anyway, generally speaking. Truth Seekers' effects are inapplicable to things that contain Nature Energy, Six Paths Chakra, or both. Guess what contains Nature Energy? That's right.............Nature itself! So it's actually not possible for the Yin-Yang empowered hax to affect the terrain lol. This would only leave the physical energy produced by the balls and the basic matter manipulation that the non Yin-Yang empowered TSOs have, which is consistent with what we consistently see.
To add insult to injury, you pretty much picked the worst possible example here. As we all know, Kaguya can control her dimensions and their terrain using her chakra, as well as showing the ability to literally fuse with them. This means that her dimensions more than likely contain Six Paths chakra as well. That's right, the other thing that TSOs don't affect......

Also here.

I could just be lazy and say "same as above", but nah.
This one isn't even accepted as a TSO lol. This is currently accepted as Naruto transmuting his TSOs into Chakra Rods in order to keep Madara in place and pin him down, which was the whole point. A black rod of death that erases whatever it touches and simply sinks into the ground wouldn't help Naruto pin down and paralyze someone who's immune to the hax anyway, now would it?

So that being said there has not been a single time where tso has erased something. Every time it's either nothing happening or vaporization when it comes into contact with something. Which is consistent with Hiruzen saying it turns things to dust.

Yeah, no. You used a few obscure, inconsequential, and irrelevant examples erroneously and with no regard for context, all the while ignoring all the examples, context, and explanations I provided in my OP. You did not, in any meaningful way, counter my points.
It's funny, but I remember the first time you came on that thread nearly a year ago and made an attempt at "debunking it". You were shut down, and for good reason, but I honestly can't believe that your arguments have somehow gotten worse lmao. I genuinely don't think you have read my OP, at least not earnestly and without bias.
In any case, it might be helpful for you and everyone else to read this part of the OP carefully...

Void Manipulation, Existence Erasure, and/or more potential shenanigans:

The TSBs have the ability to erase objects upon contact as we've seen pointed out, or implied, on multiple occasions by reliable sources.

We have even witnessed this erasure on a few subtle occasions. For instance, when Obito erased part of Sasuke's Susano'o when it came into contact with it. It was also seemingly capable of creating a Vacuum in the area it expanded in.

This is interestting because, as we've meticulously debated and proven on this thread, Chakra is partially or entirely comprised of soul-like energy, and far as I'm aware destroying souls is partial proof for Existence Erasure, or at the very least Soul Manipulation or Non-Physical Interaction. There's further proof for them interacting with souls as well......

Sooooooooooooo, the Minato thing.......

I know what you're thinking, but I promise you I won't use the Minato example to prove outright Soul Destruction. I know that it's accepted as a Power Null feat, and I'm completely content with that. The thing is, there's an overlooked aspect of that feat. In order for him to disconnect that arm via the Power Null properties of the TSB, Obito still had to make contact with Minato's soul with the TSB in order to disconnect it physically, which I believe would still be potentially enough to award Soul Manipulation or at least Non-Physical Interaction because he's interacting with the soul and affecting it to an extent, even if he's not destroying it outright.

Another interesting feat is that Obito also seemingly erased Amaterasu, a flame that never goes out under normal circumstances, on more than one occasion. (Even when it was previously enveloping him completely)

Now if you've read this far and you're still not entirely convinced of this prospect, well, I can't entirely blame you in all honesty. The whole thing is a bit wonky and admittedly requires a few leaps due to the ambiguous/dubious nature of the TSB (Oh wow, an ambiguous and ill-defined Naruto ability? Shocking, I know......). Worry not though, friends, because I came prepared with even more evidence.

This evidence comes in the form of Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeking Ball. As we all know, it is currently accepted that, with this ETSB, Kaguya was going to completely eradicate her Root Dimension and recreate it. The destruction was going to be so thorough to the point that Kakashi mentioned that they would not be able to return to the dimension again, which all but confirms that the Space-Time was going to be eradicated as well. If that's not enough for you, we also have Zetsu's statement confirming that it will be the start of a new Space-Time, and the Databook confirming that the world was going to come to "naught", which all confirms that the dimension was going to be completely annihilated down to its Space-Time, and then recreated. This is obvious and blatant proof for Space-Time Manipulation and/or Void Manipulation I believe. I feel like Void Manipulation encompasses all of the previous evidence I pointed out in the previous section as well, since it covers the destruction of Matter, Souls, Space, Time, and more, so I think it's honestly too convenient to pass up IMHO.


Now I'm sure you're all wondering exactly how all of this translates to normal TSBs and isn't simply exclusive to Kaguya's ETSB? Well, luckily we have two confirmations, courtesy of both the Manga and the Databook, that the TSBs on Naruto's back are exactly the same as the one Kaguya created, with the only difference obviously being it's much larger size. The manga even went through the trouble of explaining to us that they're comprised of exactly the same elements, and as such it's only logical that they share the exact same properties.

Before someone says they can turn it on and off there have been many times where the user had killing intent yet we still don't see vaporization. This ability should also be passive considering it has all naruto types in it. If tso was EE the ground would be erased and no smoke would show.

This part isn't even really worth addressing at this point, so I'll just make a few additional points instead.

The word "erase" is actually rarely used in the Naruto series. For example, it is never used to refer to Onoki's Dust Release to my knowledge. Jinton is usually described using words such as destroy, disassemble, or turn to dust. So the argument that the word "erased" is abused, misused, or otherwise misrepresented in the series is not only baseless, it's outright false. So take these whataboutisms regarding other works of fiction out of the argument, please. They are utterly inconsequential.
Finally, as I already explained in my OP, the ETSB was stated to be capable of reducing a dimension/world "to nothing". This was graciously re-translated by Arc in order for us to be sure, and it did indeed use that exact term. I already meticulously explained the context of the destruction and why the smaller ETSB should inherit this property of the bigger one, so I won't get into that too much here. It's already self-evident.

And that's all she wrote.
I hope I won't have to deal with this again.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The word "erase" is actually rarely used in the Naruto series. For example, it is never used to refer to Onoki's Dust Release to my knowledge. Jinton is usually described using words such as destroy, disassemble, or turned to dust. So the argument that the word "erased" is abused in the series is abused, misused, or otherwise misrepresented in the series is not only baseless, it's outright false.

TSB's being the exact same as Jinton also doesn't narratively make much sense, considering the only reason it's ever brought up is to make a comparison that TSB's are superior to it.

 

[Reio35]

TSB's being the exact same as Jinton also doesn't narratively make much sense, considering the only reason it's ever brought up is to make a comparison that TSB's are superior to it.

The narrative never implied it was superior. If anything it was saying they are same.

Both are stated to convert things to dust

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/918625696035786772/918626561375223828/0639-006.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/918625696035786772/918626906914562098/0466-016.png

Their isn't a single scan that said it was superior

I will respond to uchiha later

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The narrative never implied it was superior. If anything it was saying they are same.

Dust release is a Kekke Touta that combines three nature releases of earth,wind and fire. TSB's is highlighted to be more than 4 nature releases and to be superior to both Kekke genkai's and Kekke touta's

So yes TSB's are outright implied to be superior.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Dust release is a Kekke Touta that combines three nature releases of earth,wind and fire. TSB's is highlighted to be more than 4 nature releases and to be superior to both Kekke genkai's and Kekke touta's

So yes TSB's are outright implied to be superior.

Mind you, this also a TSB in its incomplete form before two more natures are added to it.

 

[God900]

Yet, I don't see a direct statement implying that it erases someone's existence. And the Minato thing is considered power Null, so.......

TSO is just a higher level of Desconstruction, yet I've to see a statement implying that it erases someone's soul, yeah, soul and Chakra are linked, but what I mean is...,you know, ur spiritual self.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

TSB's being the exact same as Jinton also doesn't narratively make much sense, considering the only reason it's ever brought up is to make a comparison that TSB's are superior to it.

That doesn't mean jack on it's own since there are things above molecules level destruction that aren't Existence Erasure, like Atomic or Sub-Atomic level destruction. Not saying it can't be EE, just that the argument that it's superior to the Jinton is useless without something to back it.

As for this thread. I've got my own issue with TSB being Existence Erasure but I believe it has enough to support it being EE over it not being so I don't really agree with removing it's Existence Erasure.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

That doesn't mean jack on it's own since there are things above molecules level destruction that aren't Existence Erasure, like Atomic or Sub-Atomic level destruction. Not saying it can't be EE, just that the argument that it's superior to the Jinton is useless without something to back it.

His point isn't that this supports EE, his point is that their claim that the TSOs are only on Jinton's level is false.
Shadow doesn't even agree with EE himself XD

 

[God900]

That doesn't mean jack on it's own since there are things above molecules level destruction that aren't Existence Erasure, like Atomic or Sub-Atomic level destruction. Not saying it can't be EE, just that the argument that it's superior to the Jinton is useless without something to back it.

As for this thread. I've got my own issue with TSB being Existence Erasure but I believe it has enough to support it being EE over it not being so I don't really agree with removing it's Existence Erasure.

Physical EE exists you know......
There is no statement about TSO being capable of erasing someone's soul, or very existance.

And Minato's thing is power null.

So yeah, there is in fact a problem with treating TSO as Soul EE.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Dust release is a Kekke Touta that combines three nature releases of earth,wind and fire. TSB's is highlighted to be more than 4 nature releases and to be superior to both Kekke genkai's and Kekke touta's

So yes TSB's are outright implied to be superior.

Yet in the image above it seems to blow the shoulder out... if in that form it was superior to the Jinton it would have visually just disappeared no? Considering it would be above the Jinton which is molecular?

His point isn't that this supports EE, his point is that their claim that the TSOs are only on Jinton's level is false.
Shadow doesn't even agree with EE himself XD

My apologies.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That doesn't mean jack on it's own since there are things above molecules level destruction that aren't Existence Erasure, like Atomic or Sub-Atomic level destruction. Not saying it can't be EE, just that the argument that it's superior to the Jinton is useless without something to back it.

Thats not my point, if the dust argument falls apart regardless if the TSB's are EE or atomization then it's a non-sequitor

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yet in the image above it seems to blow the shoulder out... if in that form it was superior to the Jinton it would have visually just disappeared no? Considering it would be above the Jinton which is molecular?

Madara had the same swirls immediately after getting half of his torso and shoulder dusted by Jinton as well. It's just Edo Tensei doing it's thing, ya know? Here we can see the wood clone that got hit with the TSB was more uniformly affected.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Thats not my point, if the dust argument falls apart regardless if the TSB's are EE or atomization then it's a non-sequitor

I already said my bad.

Madara had the same swirls immediately after getting half of his torso and shoulder dusted by Jinton as well. It's just Edo Tensei doing it's thing, ya know? Here we can see the wood clone that got hit with the TSB was more uniformly affected.

Fair enough.

 

[God900]

Griffin blatantly ignored my reply