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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

UchihaSlayer96 said:
Huh, that's a really cool way of looking at it. If Baryon Mode was thought of at the time, I'm sure it would've had a hand in it.
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Yeah, because it's really "odd" about Kaguya & the Ten-tails. We know each Juubi is it's own entity, albeit one that acts solely on instinct. And when they eat an Otsutsuki, they grow into a Shinju Tree.

And we know the Shinju Tree that existed on Naruto Earth at that time was separate from Kaguya, whom only "fused" with it during Hags & Ham lifetime.

We know Kaguya "Isn't" a Jinchuriki, but the Shinju Itself after fusing. They share one chakra, one body.

There are only 2 things in the Franchise that are similar, based on Kaguya's relationship with the Juubi...
  1. Baryon Mode, where Naruto & Kurama (Temporarily IG) fuse their chakra into 1 energy, no longer separate, and Naruto then gains Kurama characteristics.
  2. Whatever Hima has going on.
 
NeoKingOfLight said:
Yeah, because it's really "odd" about Kaguya & the Ten-tails. We know each Juubi is it's own entity, albeit one that acts solely on instinct. And when they eat an Otsutsuki, they grow into a Shinju Tree.

And we know the Shinju Tree that existed on Naruto Earth at that time was separate from Kaguya, whom only "fused" with it during Hags & Ham lifetime.

We know Kaguya "Isn't" a Jinchuriki, but the Shinju Itself after fusing. They share one chakra, one body.

There are only 2 things in the Franchise that are similar, based on Kaguya's relationship with the Juubi...
  1. Baryon Mode, where Naruto & Kurama (Temporarily IG) fuse their chakra into 1 energy, no longer separate, and Naruto then gains Kurama characteristics.
  2. Whatever Hima has going on.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's definitely a super unique status.
It's almost like pulling a 'reverse Ōtsutsuki' in a sense. Instead of feeding an Otsutsuki to a Juubi, she assimilated a Juubi into herself.
Quite fitting that an Ōtsutsuki rebel would go against their norms in such a way.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Except, again, Kaguya having the Juubi "contained within her" only counts so far as someone's heart is "contained within them". She is the Juubi, in a literal sense. It's kinda like how Vegetto isn't a being that contains Goku and Vegeta within him, but rather is an entirely new being born from the fusion of Goku and Vegeta.
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I have to disagree with this one chief if I get what you are implying.
To say Kaguya is the Juubi is to say she's no longer Otsutsuki.

Firat of all, do we agree that Otsutsuki and Juubi are two different consciousnesses? Let's start from here. Because they are.

If you say they became one singular entity, then Black Zetsu shouldn't have to be worried that kaguya may have lost control and transformed to the Juubi. She shouldn't lose control of her own state of existence if she truly was truly one consciousness with the Juubi.

Another point is Kaguya shouldn't maintain her default form as Otsutsuki if she truly merged as one entity. The physical form should have every feature of both creatures, but Kaguya looked no different from a normal Otsutsuki. The only form that truly looked like a merge was the Rabbit Goddess form but that isn't the default.
 
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Idk how Jura is gonna be defeated...
  1. He's a Biju, so if you kill him, he'll just respawn sometime later.
  2. You can't trap him in the Timeless Dimension as Rinnegan gives him resistance to timestop and access to S/T Ninjutsu... He could potentially learn his way out by achieving Rinnegan based portals.
  3. With Rinnegan, he could potentially learn Chakra absorbtion, so sealing may not be a long term option, same as Timeless Dimension.
I really think Omnipotence is gonna EE him.
 
NeoKingOfLight said:
If I may ask, what would be the disagreements? I'm open to changing my mind.
Click to expand...
Just the whole "one instance isn't enough for scaling" part.

For me, if it's clear cut and there are no anti-feats, I think scaling is fine. I obviously agree with looking at feats like that with a bit more scrutiny, but Gaara blocking Fused Momoshiki's punch is as clear as day to me. At least compared to the other Kage lol
NeoKingOfLight said:
But what does "Low End Relative" mean exactly? If SM Mitsuki is a Blitz and One Shot tier below Ryu's Iron Sand and he broke through it before, that just implies Ryu wasn't taking him serious and holding back in that instance. How can that be quantified for Mitsuki?
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For starters, there's no proof to argue that Ryu was holding back here at all. He was very much trying to defeat them here as much as he has since the fight started. And actually, you can argue Mitsuki was thrown off guard when he got one-shot because Ryu had thrown Araya in the way, completely stopping Mitsuki in his tracks, which allowed Ryu to get the jump on him with his Iron Sand.
NeoKingOfLight said:
Ok, maybe "Blitz" is too strong, but here are the scans in order: Kinshiki flies at him > Chojuro dodges w/ his guard up but is immediately surprised, outsped and guard broken by Kinshiki's ground dash (No Longer Flight Speed, and this is what I consider a "blitz") > Cut by Kinshiki's next move and about to be no-diffed, only getting to retort to Kinshiki's "wide open" remark, that causes him to pause.

Chojuro was gonna be no-diffed in literally 5 movements (Flight Dash > Bull Rush > Guard Break > Wind-Up-Cut > Axe Chop)
Click to expand...
Choujuro was able to react to Kinshiki's flight speed, side step Kinshiki's axe swing, put up a guard seemingly as Kinshiki bullrushes him and nearly gets no diffed. He very much scales to Kinshiki in speed, Kinshiki just greatly overwhelmed him in power and aggressiveness.
NeoKingOfLight said:
Again, let me ask you this... Is this not comparable?
Click to expand...
If you're asking me if I believe this to be an off guard feat, then yes. And it is comparable.
NeoKingOfLight said:
Both are "Off-Guard" if we're being stringent.
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As I said just above, I do believe that's an off guard feat yeah. But Sasuke already scales to SPSM Naruto who Jigen scales to/above.
NeoKingOfLight said:
This opens up a whole new can on how I view SPSM Naruto vs Base Naruto (And people will come at my throat for it, I know...). If you want me to expand on this, i'll do it later but this is the "Short Version": SPSM isn't a huge buff over Base Naruto, thus, Fused Momoshiki isn't a "huge" buff over Base Momoshiki. Base Naruto is able to hold his own, High-Diff, but is eventually overwhelmed.
  1. Base Momoshiki Physically ~ Base Naruto Physically
  2. Fused Momoshiki Physically ~ SPSM Naruto Physically
My reasoning for this, and again, I will expand on it later if you want, is that Naruto is buffed in Base the same as he is in SPSM due to having SPC. "Kurama's Chakra Strength" is much weaker than the SPC he received from Hagoromo. Thus, the buff Naruto gets from stacking SPC & Kurama's Chakra is not significant, in my eyes. Yes, he gains things that he doesn't innately have without its usage (Chakra Cloak, Enhanced Sensory Capabilities, etc), but from a stats perspective, the "Buff" isn't significant.

By the way, when I say that, I mean much less than 2x (Not even close to it). I consider a "Significant Buff" 2x and up (Speed Stats aren't factored).

To illustrate this, I think Base Naruto post receiving SPC (War Arc) one shots BSM Naruto (War Arc), whom I have far more stronger than a hypothetical 100% Kurama Biju Mode Naruto (War Arc).
Click to expand...
I actually agree. I don't think Momoshiki absorbing Kinshiki is a 2x amp at all, and I believe the manga makes it pretty obvious with how Naruto deals with Momoshiki in both base and in SPSM.
 
Darui currently scales to Base Momoshiki who scales to Base Naruto

Base Naruto is able to throw hands with Fused Momoshiki, the same Momoshiki who one-shot Darui.

He's not two times stronger, he's just marginally superior to his base form.
 
Nierre said:
Darui currently scales to Base Momoshiki who scales to Base Naruto

Base Naruto is able to throw hands with Fused Momoshiki, the same Momoshiki who one-shot Darui.

He's not two times stronger, he's just marginally superior to his base form.
Click to expand...
Nice pfp.
 
Nierre said:
Darui currently scales to Base Momoshiki who scales to Base Naruto

Base Naruto is able to throw hands with Fused Momoshiki, the same Momoshiki who one-shot Darui.

He's not two times stronger, he's just marginally superior to his base form.
Click to expand...
This simply means that a 2x difference isn't so great to the point that you can't keep up. Although I'm not sure how bringing up Momoshiki one shotting Darui helps your case.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
This simply means that a 2x difference isn't so great to the point that you can't keep up. Although I'm not sure how bringing up Momoshiki one shotting Darui helps your case.
Click to expand...
?
So does Base Naruto not scale to Fused Momoshiki? They literally clashed? And if not why.

I bring it up to highlight the fact that we scale Darui and Base Naruto to the same value yet one got one shot and the other didn't.
 
The way I look at the scaling is something like this (TBD):

Base Naruto ~< Fused Momoshiki ~ SPSM Naruto ~ Sasuke << Kurama Avatar ~ Susano'o < Golem < MAS

Though it's a bit weird once you add Kinshiki
 
Nierre said:
?
So does Base Naruto not scale to Fused Momoshiki? They literally clashed? And if not why.
Click to expand...
It's low end, Naruto was at a disadvantage. And you don't need to be more than half as strong to block one attack from someone.
Nierre said:
I bring it up to highlight the fact that we scale Darui and Base Naruto to the same value yet one got one shot and the other didn't.
Click to expand...
Well Base Naruto is certainly superior to some extent, they're just in a similar ballpark of able to fight Otsutsuki
 
Nierre said:
He stopped Fused Momoshiki's attack entirely, he was not at a disadvantage wdym?
Click to expand...
He was on the losing end of the encounter in general, getting sent flying and spitting blood from Momoshiki's kick, being on the backfoot, and being forced into SPSM
Nierre said:
You don't see two people clash equally and say "one of them must be low end relative to the other"
Click to expand...
It's not a clash where they ran at each other, clashed at equal force, then jumped away (although even in that case Base Naruto doesn't scale to Rinnegan Sasuke), Momoshiki charged and Naruto blocked (and it's not like hitting someone with the side of your arm is the most ergonomic thing anyways).
 
Nierre said:
The way I look at the scaling is something like this (TBD):

Base Naruto ~< Fused Momoshiki ~ SPSM Naruto ~ Sasuke << Kurama Avatar ~ Susano'o < Golem < MAS

Though it's a bit weird once you add Kinshiki
Click to expand...

How I see it:

SPSM Ninjutsu AP >= Base Naruto Ninjutsu AP > FM Ninjutsu AP > SPSM Physicals ~ FM Pysicals >= Base Naruto Physicals ~ Base Momoshiki Physicals
 
Nierre said:
Where do you have Sasuke and Kinshiki in this?
Click to expand...
MS Sasuke ~ SPSM Naruto

3TM Sasuke ~ Base Naruto (Naruto keeps up here based on Reaction & Combat Speed imo)

Kinshiki ~ 3TM Sasuke
___________

Also, as an aside, Kinshiki was turned into a CF. As we know, CF's are Genetic Information & Chakra.

Why would FM be 2x Physically from the CF? 🤔 Stats aren't being stacked like that. DNA doesn't carry a complete facsimile of one's physical body (Muscle Mass, Height, weight, etc).
 
Nierre said:
Darui currently scales to Base Momoshiki who scales to Base Naruto

Base Naruto is able to throw hands with Fused Momoshiki, the same Momoshiki who one-shot Darui.

He's not two times stronger, he's just marginally superior to his base form.
Click to expand...
your statement is confusing in of itself. if Darui scales to base naruto who swapped with fused momo then why did he get one shotted?

You guys ever consider the single exchange of blow momo was not going all out?
Nierre said:
He stopped Fused Momoshiki's attack entirely, he was not at a disadvantage wdym?

You don't see two people clash equally and say "one of them must be low end relative to the other"
Click to expand...
Hello final valley sasuke
 
SPSM > base naruto. same tier but I think there is a huge difference in both. stop picking one fight in boruto manga.
look at other instances.
A. Kawaki thinking SPSM would smoke jigen even though he thought nothing really extreme of base naruto
B. Base naruto going from getting one tapped by base jigen to easily breaking his rods and even contending with karma v1 jigen


He swapped hands once with someone that plays with his food, it happens
 
Nierre said:
honestly that arc is so bad from a scaling perspective i hate it lol
Click to expand...
Not exactly. The real issue is that we tend to scale every character to another just because they clash, without considering narrative statements and consistency. For example, just because Base Naruto fights 12-year-old Base Boruto as if they’re on the same level doesn’t automatically mean Boruto scales to Naruto. Applying narrative context and maintaining consistency is crucial.
 
Samlex1234 said:
Not exactly. The real issue is that we tend to scale every character to another just because they clash, without considering narrative statements and consistency. For example, just because Base Naruto fights 12-year-old Base Boruto as if they’re on the same level doesn’t automatically mean Boruto scales to Naruto. Applying narrative context and maintaining consistency is crucial.
Click to expand...
I agree but the same could be said for the opposite too like for example we scale Momoshiki to Naruto for kicking him in the face when he was very arguably off guard.

Even if you don't think he was off guard, if you look at it from my perspective, that makes Base Naruto clashing with Fused Momo make way more sense than "Fused Momoshiki was holding back because ???", and obviously SPSM is superior but not too far above Fused Momo for overwhelming him briefly. But this also opens up a whole other can of worms that I'm not willing to get into right now: (If not to Base Naruto, where would Base Momoshiki's physicals scale)

Like I said, if you don't agree with my take of it being off guard then sure, but that doesn't mean Naruto clashing with Fused Momoshiki was a "PIS/Inconsistency/Outlier/Holding back" or whatever and that somehow makes any more sense than my perspective lol.
 
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Nierre said:
I agree but the same could be said for the opposite too like for example we scale Momoshiki to Naruto for kicking him in the face when he was very arguably off guard.

Even if you don't think he was off guard, if you look at it from my perspective, that makes Base Naruto clashing with Fused Momo make way more sense than "Fused Momoshiki was holding back because ???", and obviously SPSM is superior but not too far above Fused Momo for overwhelming him briefly. But this also opens up a whole other can of worms that I'm not willing to get into right now: (If not to Base Naruto, where would Base Momoshiki's physicals scale)

Like I said, if you don't agree with my take of it being off guard then sure, but that doesn't mean Naruto clashing with Fused Momoshiki with "PIS/Inconsistency/Outlier/Holding back" or whatever makes any more sense than my perspective lol.
Click to expand...
Do you use only the Manga for scaling?
 
Nierre said:
Mhm
Click to expand...
Okay, if that’s the case, then fair enough, I can’t fault you for using that scaling chain. Personally, I go with the novel first, then the movie, and finally the anime adaptation, since they provide more detailed information about the characters’ power levels.

Ikemoto didn’t really expand much on that arc in terms of background details or power scaling, which makes sense considering we already had the movie, the novel adaptation, and the anime was set to cover that arc as well. In fact, the Base Naruto/SPSM and Fused Momoshiki fight only lasted about two pages in the manga, which ended up creating a bunch of inconsistencies, like Base Momoshiki ~ Kinshiki ~ 3-Tomoe Sasuke ~ SPSM Naruto > Sage Mode Naruto > Base Naruto ~ < Fused Momoshiki.

But if you reference the novel, movie and the anime, you’ll notice Fused Momoshiki actually fought an EMS Sasuke, not just 3-Tomoe. Plus, he had to take on both SPSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke at once, and the narrator even mentioned it was like fighting both light and darkness simultaneously, greater than a simple 1 + 1 (Jump Kaisen).

With that extra context, the scaling looks more like: Fused Momoshiki >~ EMS Sasuke ~ SPSM Naruto >~ 3-Tomoe Sasuke ~ Kinshiki ~ Base Momoshiki. With this, both SPSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke can scale to Fused Momoshiki. even if they’re slightly weaker individually, they can still match him in speed and physical strength. Base Momoshiki, on the other hand, gets his scaling through Kinshiki, who is portrayed as relative to either 3-Tomoe Sasuke or even Kaguya depending on the interpretation.



Naruto and Sasuke started this shit
 
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