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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
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We have direct statements from the boruto light novels that adult nard and Sasuke are stronger than people like kaguya. So we don't need to assume. I agree thet the 5 kage being in the same tier as momo and kin doesn't make much sense in the context of shippudens scaling. And how the story differentiated six paths tier from everything below. But boruto is written by two entirely different writers. Kodachi and ikemoto respectively, Borutos own internal scaling just operates on it's own rules. In boruto you can train really hard to become an otsutsuki level opponent. This is an issue that eventually all long running stories that end up different writers have. Just look at how often seemingly street level comic book characters have runs under certain writers where they just consistently keep up with cosmic level beings.
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it wasnt directed to anyone specifically just the general discussion around it.
no i dont think any of the kage are as strong as Momo and Kin but i do not believe they billions of times weaker . as even guides hype fused momoshiki being above the 5 kage, which wouldnt make sense if their base forms were>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor does it make much sense for there to be that disproportional difference between all the kage not called Naruto, as the gap would be larger than part 1 sakura and the strongest non god tier kage in Naruto if the gap was so large between them then sasuke would have just chosen plenty of stand ins. also its also not consistent for a character to have a godtier speed stat and everything else to be mediocre and not to be considered a speedster. then theres the fact that in the shikamaru novel there was genuine risk of the villages starting war and the kage being legitimate threats to one another, with generally only one outlier.
from a powerscaling POV i do think they are at the lowest end of relative excluding Gaara because he just objectively has better feats (even more so if consider he might have fought matsuri off screen)
if i could have my way and ignore the wiki standards id advocate for baseline of the tier.
no i dont think any of the kage are as strong as Momo and Kin but i do not believe they billions of times weaker . as even guides hype fused momoshiki being above the 5 kage, which wouldnt make sense if their base forms were>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor does it make much sense for there to be that disproportional difference between all the kage not called Naruto, as the gap would be larger than part 1 sakura and the strongest non god tier kage in Naruto if the gap was so large between them then sasuke would have just chosen plenty of stand ins. also its also not consistent for a character to have a godtier speed stat and everything else to be mediocre and not to be considered a speedster. then theres the fact that in the shikamaru novel there was genuine risk of the villages starting war and the kage being legitimate threats to one another, with generally only one outlier.
from a powerscaling POV i do think they are at the lowest end of relative excluding Gaara because he just objectively has better feats (even more so if consider he might have fought matsuri off screen)
if i could have my way and ignore the wiki standards id advocate for baseline of the tier.
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the gap is already disproportionate when we consider how much differently they perform against Fused Momoshiki. Though I will say that downscaling is something I do have in mind but I'd still need to iron it all out first.
Shikamaru tbh
that could still be the case though, but also it's more than just a who's stronger than who, but also it would be another global catastrophe like the 4th ninja war.
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but i think the most important attribute is that its no longer 2016, random non six paths characters being this strong isnt an outlier anymore or exist in a vacuum, even people like chino from a relatively scrub village has access to jutsu that can tussle with sasuke's perfects susanoo. and these instances are more and more common. that i think its becoming increasingly harder to justify arguments around what shippuden considered untouchable
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not really fused momo is a x2 increase, we can even make it a 10x powergap and the gap would be still millions of time smaller
he isnt just a speedster, he can take hits from code and even people like amado and shikamaru himself believed they could up a fight against code without Bronco's help, his pretty much a low end GT character without any AP feats
not when the gap is larger than land of waves sakura and hashirama, entire nations have been conquered with much smaller gaps, also this doesnt really make sense global catastrophe only happens when opposing forces are somewhat of a threat to one another, because the conflict would expand to include innocent people, global infrasturucture ect but that doesnt happen when the other side can near instantly bulldoze and incapacitate them
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yeah she's the stongest female character until either delta or eida is introduced. though i guess it depends on if you think blank era sasuke is as strong as new era sasuke. if not then kaguya >
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the biggest issue here is that ur using the wiki's values as a gotcha against the gap being big when the verse doesn't give a shit about our potency chart.
like yeah the gap is bigger than bos Sakura and Hashirama, but that's not a gotcha moment at all. Kishimoto or Kodachi aren't thinking of VSBW when they make fighting scenes in their story.
The gap is big though. Big enough for Kinshiki to easily swipe away Hiramekarei and slice Choujuro. Big enough for Choujuro to nearly get killed by Kinshiki. Big enough that Kurotsuchi and Choujuro needed to catch him off guard to send him flying and then seal him. Like I said I'm okay with downscaling but EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T downscale and they instead dropped down to their Part 2 tier (in AP) their performance would've hardly changed. They'd still need to catch Kinshiki off guard to be able to seal him.
Those two don't even have profiles TMK, so ig that's a moot point but I'm moreso talking about personal scaling (so low-end relativity at best). Gaara is fine as is IMO, and Darui im on the fence on.
But this is ignoring the fact that I consider Momoshiki kicking Naruto in the Chunin Exams as an off guard feat so
like yeah the gap is bigger than bos Sakura and Hashirama, but that's not a gotcha moment at all. Kishimoto or Kodachi aren't thinking of VSBW when they make fighting scenes in their story.
The gap is big though. Big enough for Kinshiki to easily swipe away Hiramekarei and slice Choujuro. Big enough for Choujuro to nearly get killed by Kinshiki. Big enough that Kurotsuchi and Choujuro needed to catch him off guard to send him flying and then seal him. Like I said I'm okay with downscaling but EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T downscale and they instead dropped down to their Part 2 tier (in AP) their performance would've hardly changed. They'd still need to catch Kinshiki off guard to be able to seal him.
Those two don't even have profiles TMK, so ig that's a moot point but I'm moreso talking about personal scaling (so low-end relativity at best). Gaara is fine as is IMO, and Darui im on the fence on.
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Delta just absorbs her Jutsu and beats the brakes out of her. though shes probably susceptible to Genjutsu so that's a solid win on for Chino
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im using the gap to illustrate the point, the gap between the kages is even smaller inverse.
none of these are are >>>>AP feats
you can cut someone with a weapon who's relative to in strength and the other is a LS feat.
that the fact kinshiki's slice was so shallow actualy also kinda debunks the idea that his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but thats neither here nor there and im not one to oppose my fat lords agenda.
chojuro was intentionally leading Kinshiki away from sasuke so that they could seal him which puts into question a lot of the other stuff anyway.
no? Ninja using cooperation and stealth to catch an enemy slipping is not an admission of inferiority? in the same vain minato using the flying raijin to catch random jonin off guard doesnt mean he cant just bulldozne them in a regular fight, its just an efficient way of fighting in teams
not at all they have statements and feats to put them above their shippuden selves.
sure????
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it's crossed out for a reason.
it's a hypothetical.
don't need to respond to anything else since we've already agreed that them scaling to Kinshiki is wrong and downscaling is more accurate. my whole point was to illustrate that they don't scale exactly to Kinshiki but are inferior but are still low end relative.
I wasn't saying trying to say they should be downgraded to 6-B because the lowest I would go would be like 5-C/5-C+ anyway, considering they were picked over the likes of Kakashi. And I don't think that's so far from Kinshiki's current rating.
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no but im also missing the joke or why you crossed it
thats fine
honestly visually speaking id like a 5-C rating cause they def seem to be closer to that base Koji Konohamaru's rasengan level
MinatoSparkle
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Are you referring to the Sasuke would protect the world from a Kaguya level+ threat himself thing?
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I translated it the other day, its from Boruto novel 3
Last edited:
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Law vs Kakashi
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Trafalgar_Law vs https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kakashi_Hatake SBA Speed =
Ghostimuscrime
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Good stuff
I translated it the other day, its from Boruto novel 3
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@Nierre
I'll respond later.
@Shadowbokunohero
My biggest issue with the writing aspect is, while yes there are different writers (Kodachi/Ike (And Let's give Kishimoto a little Credit too. While it has deviated from his original outline, it still a little more than just the "bones", if you get what I mean)), I don't subscribe to the notion that everything that came before should be simply written off or discounted just because new writers portray things differently.
I strongly believe that where we can, we should always start by achieving parity in the scaling logic. And to me, that means, as Naruto & Shippuden came first and Boruto is a continuation of that world & the logic within, EVERYONE in Boruto should be subject to it, as a base point (Which most people do already, albeit to varying degrees).
I guess I'm way too militant on it, but I think extenuating factors should hold the most weight in regard to how a character scales (Karma, Otsutsukification, SM, MS hax, Kurama w/ Higher Affinity, Shibai body mods, etc) and then if a character has none of that, they should be 100% Scrutinized until there is no "reasonable doubt".
Is that not in and of itself a reasonable stance to take? Because the way I see it with how we're going about it here, even though the narrative is putting SIGNIFICANT weight behind those factors, if X Character can simply train themselves to that level, then none of those factors mean a damn thing.
And that is clearly not the case here as narrative weight continues to be placed upon them. And it's because of that that my personal incredulous levels are so high.
I'll respond later.
@Shadowbokunohero
My biggest issue with the writing aspect is, while yes there are different writers (Kodachi/Ike (And Let's give Kishimoto a little Credit too. While it has deviated from his original outline, it still a little more than just the "bones", if you get what I mean)), I don't subscribe to the notion that everything that came before should be simply written off or discounted just because new writers portray things differently.
I strongly believe that where we can, we should always start by achieving parity in the scaling logic. And to me, that means, as Naruto & Shippuden came first and Boruto is a continuation of that world & the logic within, EVERYONE in Boruto should be subject to it, as a base point (Which most people do already, albeit to varying degrees).
I guess I'm way too militant on it, but I think extenuating factors should hold the most weight in regard to how a character scales (Karma, Otsutsukification, SM, MS hax, Kurama w/ Higher Affinity, Shibai body mods, etc) and then if a character has none of that, they should be 100% Scrutinized until there is no "reasonable doubt".
Is that not in and of itself a reasonable stance to take? Because the way I see it with how we're going about it here, even though the narrative is putting SIGNIFICANT weight behind those factors, if X Character can simply train themselves to that level, then none of those factors mean a damn thing.
And that is clearly not the case here as narrative weight continues to be placed upon them. And it's because of that that my personal incredulous levels are so high.
MinatoSparkle
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Good statement, although I wouldn't say it's completely direct, since Otsutsuki ancestors could mean like Ashura/Indra and/or Hagoromo/Hamura
I translated it the other day, its from Boruto novel 3
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We finally scaling KCM and SM Minato to the God Tiers?
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we already do that for the most part but theres only so much reasonable doubt you can give before it becomes the inverse of trying to be logical, if we have to create contrived reasons to fit a square peg into a round hole then its no more logical than taking the bare minimum to wank someone for example.
I dont agree about boruto being a continuation meaning anything, sure as baseline when the story starts its subject to the internal rules of naruto because thats our only reference point but from that point on no, the story can do whatever it wants for better or worse, its just for us to index. shippuden already changed and retconed stuff that we no longer take into account anymore. the past can inform us and let us make better educated decisions but it shouldnt be a method to gatekeep scaling.
because more often than approaching these things with specific view first instead of looking at the feats on their own merit and then seeing how they stack you end up falling into the trappings of confirmation bias where you may end up making unintentional massive illogical leaps in logic if it means fitting the scaling into a status quo.
now to clarify that doesnt mean you shouldnt be critical in evaluating stuff (ive mentioned that i dont agree with Code > Delta or that all the jigen scaling is in reference to V2) but it should come from a place of taking the information on its own and evaluting versus being incredulous.
I dont agree about boruto being a continuation meaning anything, sure as baseline when the story starts its subject to the internal rules of naruto because thats our only reference point but from that point on no, the story can do whatever it wants for better or worse, its just for us to index. shippuden already changed and retconed stuff that we no longer take into account anymore. the past can inform us and let us make better educated decisions but it shouldnt be a method to gatekeep scaling.
because more often than approaching these things with specific view first instead of looking at the feats on their own merit and then seeing how they stack you end up falling into the trappings of confirmation bias where you may end up making unintentional massive illogical leaps in logic if it means fitting the scaling into a status quo.
now to clarify that doesnt mean you shouldnt be critical in evaluating stuff (ive mentioned that i dont agree with Code > Delta or that all the jigen scaling is in reference to V2) but it should come from a place of taking the information on its own and evaluting versus being incredulous.
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(I'm talking bout him getting kicked in his chest by them goobers and them not breaking skin)
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I think he's replying to me
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no its including everyone, kaguya is reference earlier in the passage as the ultimate enemy naruto and sasuke fought and how it relates to the hidden threat of the other otsutsuki,also kaguya is THE OTSUTUSKI ANCESTOR
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MinatoSparkle
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I mean KCM Minato already scales close to Juubito
I agree that it's probable, I was just saying it doesn't incontrovertibly say Naruto and Sasuke surpassed the power of Kaguya. Although if you were to interpret it as all Otsutsuki, would that not include people like Isshiki and Shibai? Unless you say they're not part of the same family tree?
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no because Kaguya is the one responsible for spreading chakra among humans through her offspring (dojutsu ect blah blah you know what i mean), which is why they call them the ancestors, ishikki got bisected and then turned into that one episode of plankton controlling spongebob for a few millennia. and its unknown if Toneri is aware of Shibai, he is aware of Kaguya,hagoromo and then vaguely about momo and co coming to earth.
Ghostimuscrime
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yap@Nierre
I'll respond later.
@Shadowbokunohero
My biggest issue with the writing aspect is, while yes there are different writers (Kodachi/Ike (And Let's give Kishimoto a little Credit too. While it has deviated from his original outline, it still a little more than just the "bones", if you get what I mean)), I don't subscribe to the notion that everything that came before should be simply written off or discounted just because new writers portray things differently.
I strongly believe that where we can, we should always start by achieving parity in the scaling logic. And to me, that means, as Naruto & Shippuden came first and Boruto is a continuation of that world & the logic within, EVERYONE in Boruto should be subject to it, as a base point (Which most people do already, albeit to varying degrees).
I guess I'm way too militant on it, but I think extenuating factors should hold the most weight in regard to how a character scales (Karma, Otsutsukification, SM, MS hax, Kurama w/ Higher Affinity, Shibai body mods, etc) and then if a character has none of that, they should be 100% Scrutinized until there is no "reasonable doubt".
Is that not in and of itself a reasonable stance to take? Because the way I see it with how we're going about it here, even though the narrative is putting SIGNIFICANT weight behind those factors, if X Character can simply train themselves to that level, then none of those factors mean a damn thing.
And that is clearly not the case here as narrative weight continues to be placed upon them. And it's because of that that my personal incredulous levels are so high.
the seeds sown by kaguya make her a direct inclusion amongst the ancestors and the main ancestors since its within the same sentence, its supposed to imply "they surpassed everyone from before"
MinatoSparkle
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Yep
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Kaguya didn't spread chakra. She introduced Otsutuki chakra and Genetics into the gene pool, but she didn't spread chakra.
The entire point of Isshiki and Kaguya going to Earth was to plant a Shinju to take all the chakra and genetic information on it.
This was retconned long before Boruto as it was nonsensical that the God Tree supposedly had the world in a vise grip twice, before Hagoromo supposedly spread Chakra, which occured after they sealed the ten-tails.
Logically it would have to be:
- Isshiki & Kaguya came to Earth & planted a Shinju Tree.
- Kaguya betrayed Isshiki and ate the CF herself that Shinju Tree bore.
- Kaguya had relations some time after and birthed Hags & Ham.
- Kaguya went crazy and used IT on the populace.
- Kaguya fused with Tree to take back the chakra she pwrsonally dispersed into Hags & Ham by birthing them.
- Hags & Ham Pack up the Shinju.
- Ham goes to the Moon with the remaining "Otsutsuki Clan".
- Hags stays on earth, teaching people about chakra (As it already existed) & spreading Ninshuu.
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old people and meat
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take your time. but also another question (to add to the others lol)@Nierre
I'll respond later.
where do you scale Adult Sakura and Adult Shin
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"spreading chakra among humans through her offspring"
also this is specifically in relation to humans, we know the planet has its own chakra thats separate from what we consider regular chakra, and in of itself the god tree sucks up nature energy as well as it leaves the planet a wasteland.
not that this is relevant because kaguya is still called the ancestor of shinobi/progenitor ect even in the modern era with Boruto.
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The point being made was that Humans have chakra irrelevant of what Kaguya and her children did. The tree also takes chakra out of all life "on" the planet, in addition to genetic info. This means that chakra wasn't spread by anybody in the Otsutsuki to humanity.
Again, the only chakra that was spread by her specifically was unique Otsutsuki chakra and genetics: Kaguya > Hags & Ham > Ashura & Indra > Uzumaki/Senju/Hyuuga/Uchiha, etc.
Sure, but I wasn't commenting on that aspect of what you said. I agree though that the statement incorporates her as well.
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i never said otherwise i said and i quote
"no because Kaguya is the one responsible for spreading chakra among humans through her offspring
"no because Kaguya is the one responsible for spreading chakra among humans through her offspring (dojutsu ect blah blah you know what i mean)"
are the senju,uchiha, Hyuuga, Kimimaro clan ect not human?
im not saying kaguya came and gifted everyone chakra, im saying she spread chakra through proxy of her children who then spread it through their own giving rise to many of the shinobi clans, hence why I initially mention dojutsu, and thats what separates her from people like ishikki is she has a direct link with shinobi as their ancestor.
maybe my initial post was confusing or not worded well, the point i was just making is that kaguya is the ancestor because of how her chakra was dispersed "genetically" as you mentioned earlier through her children .
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By the way, it’s not just this statement and its implications we rely on. There’s a broader pattern across multiple pieces of evidence:
I translated it the other day, its from Boruto novel 3
1. Sasuke’s Judgment of Threats (Reliably): Sasuke believed he could protect the shinobi world from a threat like Kaguya. This was the same Sasuke who when he fought Kaguya in his teen immediately recognized he had no chance against Kaguya the moment she appeared. He understood that only the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei could seal her and there was no hope of defeating her in direct combat.
2. Sasuke’s Assessment of Kinshiki and Momoshiki: Despite witnessing Kinshiki’s strength and seeing Momoshiki , Sasuke still suspected they were the ones Kaguya feared. This is telling, considering Sasuke had seen Kaguya’s final form and knew what her true power looked like.
3. Momoshiki’s Confidence in Facing Kaguya:
Momoshiki believed he could defeat Kaguya, even after learning she had betrayed the clan and consumed a chakra fruit from Earth. While arrogant, Momoshiki isn’t delusional he recognized the monstrous strength of Naruto and Sasuke and acknowledged Isshiki’s superiority. If he believed he was stronger than Kaguya and Kinshiki agrees, it reflects how he ranked himself in relation to her and the clan sending him to clean up the mess is also indicative of that.
4. The Decoded Tablet and Sasuke’s Conclusion: After decoding the tablet, Sasuke confirmed that Kaguya feared two individuals and knew the clan would send them implying those individuals were capable of punishing or eliminating her kinda like how the vitrumite Empire sent Conquest to deal with Mark. This implies she didn’t really fear the entire clan in general, just those two.
5. Kaguya’s Fear and Chakra Sensing: Kaguya was so terrified of what was coming that she even attempted to kill her own children. Given her ability to sense chakra levels, she must have been operating under the assumption that the Momoshiki she last saw was still above her after that Chakra fruit
Supporting Evidence:
1. Otsutsuki Hierarchy and Tablets:
Isshiki Otsutsuki tablets shows Momoshiki ranked above Kaguya. This implies that Momoshiki might be next in rank after Isshiki, which would explain why he was chosen to retrieve the chakra fruit from a kaguya that might have betrayed the clan. Kaguya also belonged to the branch of the clan typically sacrificed, further supporting this structure.
2. Naruto to Boruto Game Cutscenes:
In the game’s story mode, after fighting Kinshiki and Momoshiki, Naruto states that their power is comparable to Kaguya’s. Momoshiki responds by telling him not to compare him to Kaguya and asserts that they are both stronger.
