Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

[MinatoSparkle]

1. Otsutsuki Hierarchy and Tablets:
Isshiki Otsutsuki tablets shows Momoshiki ranked above Kaguya. This implies that Momoshiki might be next in rank after Isshiki, which would explain why he was chosen to retrieve the chakra fruit from a kaguya that might have betrayed the clan. Kaguya also belonged to the branch of the clan typically sacrificed, further supporting this structure.

I thought they're ranked at the same level?

 

[Ar1216789]

How fast is Kido's Lightning Bear Trap? It was amped by a huge amount so I'm assuming Relativistic.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Ftl+ , What GT scale too. though I suppose guy might bump the verse soon

How fast is Kido's Lightning Bear Trap? It was amped by a huge amount so I'm assuming Relativistic.

 

[Samlex1234]

I thought they're ranked at the same level?

Not really. The reason it appeared that way is because Kaguya was positioned right below Isshiki due to her role as the sacrificial Otsutsuki. In the clan’s hierarchy, the one designated for sacrifice is always ranked below their partner.
The key point is this: Kaguya was always Isshiki’s sacrificial partner nothing more. In contrast, Momoshiki had his own sacrificial partner, Kinshiki. Based on everything we’ve seen from Kinshiki, Urashiki, Momoshiki himself, and even the fact that the Otsutsuki clan sent him, Momoshiki is consistently portrayed as superior to Kaguya.

For example, Kinshiki and Urashiki refer to Momoshiki with honorifics like “sama” “Senpai” (Lord), while they call Kaguya by name even before they learned of her betrayal. That alone says a lot about her perceived status.
Additionally, Momoshiki was allowed to consume the chakra fruit himself, while Kaguya was expected to deliver hers back to the clan. Even after they knew Isshiki was gone, she wasn’t even given the same privilege as Momoshiki.
Further evidence is found in Isshiki keeping Momoshiki’s tablet in his own dimension, implying that he viewed Momoshiki as a high-ranking member possibly even next in line after himself as the other two tablets were destroyed, so we don’t know if their owners are alive or not.

 

[Godernet]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-topic-we-all-know-and-love-naruto-crt.178593/

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

wow

 

[Damage3245]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-topic-we-all-know-and-love-naruto-crt.178593/

How it feels posting my thread at the same time as this:

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

How it feels posting my thread at the same time as this:

4-B enjoyers rn:

 

[RoninSlayer200]

It's so Narutover.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It's so Narutover.

Hello, my dear Sock Puppet.

 

[Nierre]

Flew too close to the Sun and this is what happens

 

[Deceived3596]

Damage and Net on their way hard-capping the verse below Tier 4:

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

welp see yall in the rvr when the inevitable happens

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Well I do agree that Kaguya was afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki due to a multitude of reasons, but I don't think it's far-fetched to say that them as a collective is stronger than Kaguya.

Sure, that is certainly a perspective, but the next logical question would be, "what support does either stance have?" And of course, that then gets into a canon debate, but as I have already detailed, the novels that statements of Sasuke & Naruto being > Kaguya appear in, I don't personally accept as canon and I explained why in that post. So for me, nothing legitimately scales Momoshiki & Kinshiki as a pair or otherwise over Kaguya and it's more reasonable to assert that, given neither actually knew what was going on with the other and how the pairs operate, what she was worried about is an "unknown" strength Momo & Kin.

At best, these two statements (Scan 1 | Scan 2) put the pair over Kaguya prior to her betraying Isshiki, but the scaling goes: "Rejuvenated Kaguya > Resurrected Kaguya > Post-CF Kaguya > Pre-Betrayal Kaguya".

You mention earlier that you believe Naruto and Sasuke got stronger:

And we see Kinshiki fight Sasuke like three different times, so Kinshiki is obviously relative to Sasuke.
I suppose you believe New Era Sasuke is weaker than Kaguya as well then?

Yes, in the absence of those statements from the novels, I would not have Sasuke / Naruto over Kaguya (Minus Ashura Avatar). To show you how I view it...

1. When it comes to Chakra, "Strength" and "Volume" is separate for the most part (Obviously some exceptions are made in the series).
2. With #1 being the case, when Hagoromo gives half of his Chakra to Naruto and Sasuke, I don't view that Chakra as having "diminished" in strength.
3. With #2 being the case, the only difference between Naruto/Sasuke (Pre-Biju Susanoo) & Hagoromo is Chakra "Volume" and CC Skill Level.
4. With #3 being the case, when this statement is made, I'd argue End of War Sasuke essentially ties Hagoromo with the exception of Versatility, as Sasuke was still learning his Rinnegan and obviously Hagoromo's chakra tank (NOTE: I do scale Biju Susanoo & Ashura Avatar over Kaguya).
5. With #4 being the case, Post-War, when it's apparent that Naruto and Sasuke trained, I'd argue they have surpassed Hagoromo, but minus Naruto w/ Ashura Avatar, nothing says they "Surpassed" Kaguya. At best I believe it can be argued Naruto & Sasuke are individually comparable to "Post-CF Kaguya", who Hagoromo admits inferiority to.

What do you mean, "without any reasoning"? Gaara, more than the other Kage sans Naruto, should scale to the Otsutsuki. He outright blocks an attack from Fused Momoshiki.

Again, I don't believe one instance is sufficient, but also, let me give you an example from Naruto and Boruto that points to my thinking on this...

1. Naruto: Sakura's Byakugou Seal being more Chakra than Naruto's clone -- Would be crazy at first, given Kurama and Hagoromo's Chakra and Kaguya thoughts on their chakra amount, until you remember Byakugou Seal is 3 years worth of continuously stored Chakra. It may not be the "best" reasoning to explain "how", but it's not random either.
2. Boruto: Off the top of my head, Konohamaru blocking Hidari's Chidori with Wind Release. Yeah, I remember my argument with Sparkle over it and i'm not gonna be arguing it on the wiki, but the point stands, he's using you have a character who is massively weaker imo, blocking Ninjutsu from a superior character, using Elemental Advantage.

You see the "attempts" at reasoning being made, be they good or not. Gaara has nothing. The feat exists, but no reasoning behind "how" he's able to do it. So am I expected to just "believe" a character weaker than Madara with no statements of having so much as trained since then, is just magically on that level now because of one feat? It's no different in my mind than Sakura reacting to & punching Kaguya.

Even if you wanna split AP and Dura, his Sand durability should scale fine. Even if you think the writing is poor for that to be the case, it happened. It's not something you can argue away like the other feats (Kurotsuchi for example).

Again, I point to my response above.

Little off topic, but where do you scale Shikamaru's speed? He reacts to Delta like once or twice IIRC.

I'd have to think about it more.

Also this whole incredulous angle ur going for may be more debunked later as we continue in TBV as Sarada, Mitsuki and Konohamaru seem to be handling themselves so far (Yes I know how you feel about the scaling, and I'm pretty sure you and I see eye to eye on it, but I think it's ridiculous to think that they won't eventually reach tier 5 [if they aren't already]).

Possibly. The only thing I want is some level of reasoning and not "Just because" logic. Matsuri has no Physical feats. Ryu had no physical feats. Hidari has been piss poor and Bug is chilling... Big Jura is Big Jura. The MS may be the determining factor in that fight with Ryu and is TBD and I believe Konohamaru is gonna be saved. Mitsuki was just blitzed and one tapped...

I personally scale Chojuro to Kinshiki in speed, but don't agree with him scaling in AP or Dura.

I agree with him scaling to Kinshiki's Flight Speed, that seems reasonable, but as soon as he faced against his combat speed, Chojuro was essentially blitzed and no diffed.

Chojuro getting his sword knocked away and getting cut up is not grounds for scaling at all IMO. Just because the author didn't show him disintegrating when he got cut does NOT mean he actually scales to him. If Sasuke went and fought a bunch of goons with swords and Sasuke knocks his sword guard and cuts him in his chest, that doesn't mean he scales to Sasuke because "he didn't get obliterated". Also agree with the Chakra Needles point.

Agree.

Darui is a bit weird because he does very much pressure Momoshiki, but Momoshiki pretty easily blocks his attack.

I look at it as Sakura trying to punch Madara. She's the aggressor. Madara blocking her attack doesn't scale her to him.

He seems moreso worried that they're fast enough to keep up with him, but I don't deny that they pose a threat to Momoshiki because otherwise he'd have no issues dealing with Darui and wouldn't have opted to running away. I don't agree with your incredulous angle tbh so I won't tackle that, but can you expand on the Momoshiki kicking Naruto point? Why don't you think it's an off-guard feat? Or do you?

So I judge it based on Naruto's reaction primarily. The look on his face isn't that of shock or surprise and is more reminiscent of this reaction against Shin, albeit he does have less time. It may be cope, but also, every Otsutsuki Naruto has fought has been able to physically contend with him. I don't think this is unreasonable for Momoshiki to be able to hurt Naruto physically. I mean... Is this "Off-Guard" as he was focused on Naruto & wasn't paying attention to Sasuke?

Though I will say it makes no sense for Momoshiki to be extremely casual against Momoshiki and not against Naruto. He hadn't faced Naruto up until that point (yeah he kicked him, but I personally think it was an off guard feat, but also, it's not like Momoshiki was impressed Naruto survived the kick anyway, he easily dodged Naruto's attacks when he came to)

The difference is, Naruto has feats supporting his placement and Momoshiki did size up Naruto before they arrived, as well as the Kage's, and before they got there, Momoshiki's only experience with earth Humans were Sasuke, whom he witnessed fight Kinshiki and KB. So he's not necessarily unaware of what these people are capable of, and Naruto would be the nearest to what saw from Sasuke, if he's comparing, which they do... do. I understand the comparison you're making, and that's reasonable to state and it feels like i'm grasping at straws, lol. The best I can say is, Momoshiki may have been Casual in both, but Momoshiki establishes his feats against Naruto, whom is already established. Gaara isn't. Also, i'd like emphasis Momoshiki's thoughts on Naruto btw vs the others.

but he did spend time running away from Gaara (and Darui), it makes no sense for him to be extremely casual against Gaara, and then right after go tryhard mode against Base Naruto.

Well as pointed out above, Momoshiki considers Naruto a Monster, unlike the others before they engage.

It just makes more sense for him to have been trying the whole time, rather than just assuming he wasn't against Gaara, but was against Base Naruto.

I disagree based on their interactions prior to the altercation.

That's fine, I don't agree with some of what you said, but I do agree with some other things. I just wanna pick ur brain a bit

Feel free to keep picking, lol. Even if people disagree, I'm honored some still find it interesting enough to see how I view these things.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

take your time. but also another question (to add to the others lol)

where do you scale Adult Sakura and Adult Shin

Tomorrow, lol

 

[Nierre]

So for me, nothing legitimately scales Momoshiki & Kinshiki as a pair or otherwise over Kaguya and it's more reasonable to assert that, given neither actually knew what was going on with the other and how the pairs operate, what she was worried about is an "unknown" strength Momo & Kin.

That's fair.

At best, these two statements (Scan 1 | Scan 2) put the pair over Kaguya prior to her betraying Isshiki, but the scaling goes: "Rejuvenated Kaguya > Resurrected Kaguya > Post-CF Kaguya > Pre-Betrayal Kaguya".

Where do you have Pre-Betrayal Kaguya at? Unknown?

With #4 being the case, Post-War, when it's apparent that Naruto and Sasuke trained, I'd argue they have surpassed Hagoromo, but minus Naruto w/ Ashura Avatar, nothing says they "Surpassed" Kaguya. At best I believe it can be argued Naruto & Sasuke are individually comparable to "Post-CF Kaguya", who Hagoromo admits inferiority to.

Sure

Again, I don't believe one instance is sufficient, but also, let me give you an example from Naruto and Boruto that points to my thinking on this...

1. Naruto: Sakura's Byakugou Seal being more Chakra than Naruto's clone -- Would be crazy at first, given Kurama and Hagoromo's Chakra and Kaguya thoughts on their chakra amount, until you remember Byakugou Seal is 3 years worth of continuously stored Chakra. It may not be the "best" reasoning to explain "how", but it's not random either.
2. Boruto: Off the top of my head, Konohamaru blocking Hidari's Chidori with Wind Release. Yeah, I remember my argument with Sparkle over it and i'm not gonna be arguing it on the wiki, but the point stands, he's using you have a character who is massively weaker imo, blocking Ninjutsu from a superior character, using Elemental Advantage.

You see the "attempts" at reasoning being made, be they good or not. Gaara has nothing. The feat exists, but no reasoning behind "how" he's able to do it. So am I expected to just "believe" a character weaker than Madara with no statements of having so much as trained since then, is just magically on that level now because of one feat? It's no different in my mind than Sakura reacting to & punching Kaguya.

We can agree to disagree here

Possibly. The only thing I want is some level of reasoning and not "Just because" logic. Matsuri has no Physical feats. Ryu had no physical feats. Hidari has been piss poor and Bug is chilling... Big Jura is Big Jura. The MS may be the determining factor in that fight with Ryu and is TBD and I believe Konohamaru is gonna be saved. Mitsuki was just blitzed and one tapped...

I agree here although pretty sure we established SM Mitsuki actually broke through Ryu's Iron Sand with his own snakes, so he should at the very least be low end relative to Ryu.

I agree with him scaling to Kinshiki's Flight Speed, that seems reasonable, but as soon as he faced against his combat speed, Chojuro was essentially blitzed and no diffed.

He didn't get blitzed at all, he outright dodged Kinshiki's swing and is able to put his guard up before Kinshiki slams his sword down and cuts into him.

I look at it as Sakura trying to punch Madara. She's the aggressor. Madara blocking her attack doesn't scale her to him.

Right but why would Momoshiki be running away from the likes of Darui and Gaara if they're so inferior to him like you believe they are.

So I judge it based on Naruto's reaction primarily. The look on his face isn't that of shock or surprise and is more reminiscent of this reaction against Shin, albeit he does have less time.

They don't actually look similar at all to me. Against Shin, Naruto saw it coming long before it arrived to him and was able to attack in time. He didn't even have a shocked visual effect like we see against Momoshiki. Against Momoshiki, Momo was able to creep/walk up to Naruto before he could even notice and only noticed him once Boruto screamed out his name, to which Momoshiki pretty quickly just sends him flying before he can even respond. He did turn around, yes, but I don't think he saw it coming, it felt like he was processing the fact that Momoshiki was right behind him before he got kicked. The anime kinda changes the position Naruto is facing but the intent is clearly there, he was caught off guard and got kicked in the face right as he locked eyes with Momoshiki.

The difference is, Naruto has feats supporting his placement and Momoshiki did size up Naruto before they arrived, as well as the Kage's, and before they got there, Momoshiki's only experience with earth Humans were Sasuke, whom he witnessed fight Kinshiki and KB. So he's not necessarily unaware of what these people are capable of, and Naruto would be the nearest to what saw from Sasuke, if he's comparing, which they do... do.

Good point. But as I stated before, Momoshiki and Kinshiki sensed many large chakras in one place, which would be weird phrasing if they were just talking about Naruto and Sasuke. It's likely they're referring to the Kage's as well. To add on to this point, it makes no sense for Momoshiki to run away from the likes of Darui (and Gaara), if he doesn't consider them strong, because as you said, he did size up the Kage's and he considers them to have large chakras.

Another thing, how do you explain Naruto reacting, dodging and blocking attacks from Fused Momoshiki if you consider Momoshiki kicking Naruto away not an off-guard feat.

Well as pointed out above, Momoshiki considers Naruto a Monster, unlike the others before they engage.

Well yes, but that's because of his Kurama Mode which he already saw him use in the Chunin Exams. Not only that but because of how long it was taking to extract Kurama's chakra from his body. Not necessarily ONLY because he's "way stronger" than them all.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I love this double spread, my boi finally got the recognition

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I love this double spread, my boi finally got the recognition

Finding a Kishimoto double spread that doesn't hit hard asf challenge (LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE)

 

[Kayzz]

@Nierre
Attempt #2

So.... in my personal opinion (I'm not looking to change whatever the consensus is on the wiki), "No". I do not scale the 5 Kage to Momo & Kin. This is because in my mind, it makes absolutely no sense. Let me break it down...

• In Shippuden, SPC was the difference between God Tier and High Tier, with EMPHASIS!

Madara & Hashirama were viewed as the pinnacle of what a shinobi could achieve without extenuating factors (Biju Chakra, Six Paths Chakra, Etc.) and it wasn't "solely" based on them being Reincarnates as other Shinobi like Itachi & Minato, for example, were already scratching at the door to their level of power before reaching their primes before they got sick and/or died, and Characters like Naruto, despite being a Reincarnate, wasn't comparable in strength w/o the strongest Biju's Chakra being amped by NE, and their power still was viewed as a myth. This level of power is completely eclipsed by the advent of SPC. Even "Mindless" Juubito, w/o full control of that chakra CASUALLY eclipsed Edo SM Hashirama. That level only CONTINUED to grow (Mindless Juubito w/o full Control < Juubito w/ Full Control < Six Paths Madara Chakra Strength < Kaguya's Chakra Strength, etc). The difference in power between those with SPC and any other Chakra was staggering, and it took Naruto & Sasuke gaining SPC from the So6P just to be comparable and have a fighting chance against Otsutsuki level foes, and I don't subscribe to the notion the average character in Naruto with regular chakra and expert level CC, as most Kage's are, can make that jump in power w/o, again, extenuating factors. Yes, consider me incredulous here.

This is where I begin to focus on Gaara primarily in relation to the Six Paths/Otsutsuki tier (the others will obviously fall below him). First, let me start with Naruto & Sasuke. The ONLY reason I believe Naruto & Sasuke are stronger than the War Arc is because in "The Last" (Movie) & "Boruto Era" (Manga), they showcased New Jutsu and Mastery over their Abilities/Doujutsu that they didn't have before, which OBVIOUSLY implies training occurred, which means they can be assumed to have gotten stronger (NOTE: I do not personally take "The Last" Novelization over the movie, which is the primary canon. And if you want to bring up the Shueisha "timelines", they are all contradictory in some form, IN THAT, you have one with the Novelization and not the Movie, and one without it but the Movie is listed, One that canonizes the Boruto Movie, etc etc. For me, and speaking only for me, that shows a lack of consistency. The only "Naruto Canon" I adhere to is: Minato & Kushina OS, Chapters 1-700, Blank Period Novels / The Last movie, Mitsuki OS, Boruto Academy Arcs / Sarada Chapters / Retsudan Novels, Boruto Manga & "Character Characterization" Post- Academy Arcs, not "events").

• Momoshiki & Kinshiki conundrum.

So, here we have characters who are "supposedly" stronger than Kaguya in the form of Momoshiki & Kinshiki (I say that because, again, speaking strictly from my own personal pov, they aren't stronger than Kaguya. Based on what we know now, Kaguya, being the Kinshiki of her team with Isshiki, was never supposed to eat CF's. Only the leaders of the Duo's get to eat CF's, thus, being as Momoshiki is the one who eats the CF's and not all CF's are equal in power as they are based on the populace of X Planet, and they had no idea what was going on with each other over the 1000+ years, Kaguya being "frightened" of Momoshiki & Kinshiki showing up is warranted because she has no idea how strong he may be after 1000+ years of CF hunting. And even if you disagree with my stance on this, you have to concede at least it's not a "baseless" assertion, but rather reasonable. Luckily though, i'm not arguing it here on the wiki...). Imo, it is illogical for Gaara to be scaling anywhere near this level and that's because: (1) We are told that Naruto, after becoming Kage for many years became stagnant & rusty due to the mostly "Peaceful" era post 4thGSW, meaning he had not progressed from the level he achieved prior to becoming Kage. (2) To assert Gaara, while an active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became stagnant & rusty under, ascended from being a plaything for Edo Madara to Stronger than Kaguya, with 0 justification given, which would be a far larger jump in power than even Naruto & Sasuke got from training post 4thGSW. (3) Unlike Naruto & Sasuke, whom actually had time to train because neither had any real responsibilities (Tsunade and Kakashi were Kage, Shikamaru was the Kage assistant handling things), Gaara was an active Kage at this time leading Suna's recovery after the war.

So when we say Gaara, whom had less time to train post-war than Naruto & Sasuke, due to being an active Kage with significant responsibilities, as well as still being an Active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became Stagnant & Rusty under when he became Kage, somehow grew his power to over Kaguya (as the Wiki Accepts Momoshiki > Kaguya), without ANY sort of reasoning, is simply absurd to me.

• Feats

(1) Chojuro dodges Kinshiki's flight speed, gets his guard broken easily, injured and about to be killed by Kinshiki in 3 moves, only stopping when Chojuro retorts.
(2) Kurotsuchi surprises Kinshiki by popping out of the mound he was already confused by, delivering a punch that did absolutely no damage, only pushing him back.
(3) Chojuro stabs Kinshiki with Chakra Needles after he was pointblank hit by Sasuke's Chidori (Note: Chojuro's Jutsu disrupts the Chakra pathway system, ala, Gentle Fist).
(4) Kurotsuchi physically restrains him with a sealing jutsu while he's being nerfed by Chojuro's ability.
(5) Gaara makes sand platforms for Darui to chase Momoshiki's flight speed. Darui swings on Momoshiki, who blocks.
(6) Momoshiki transforms and goes on a Blitz & One Shot spree with Gaara reacting and blocking one punch with his Sand before getting one tapped too.

This is my Issue... Base Momoshiki is shown surprising and drawing blood from Base Naruto with a Kick (And it's true that Naruto still did "react" to Momoshiki there mind you and the look on his face "wasn't" that of surprise). And given base Naruto vs FM, I don't see how it's logical that any of the Kage's there were a threat to Base Momoshiki "Physically", which was their goal in the first place bc he can absorb ninjutsu. If we refuse to take Momoshiki's feat into account, I don't see why the Kage's feat should be taken into account. If Momoshiki is > Kaguya, it makes sense that he can physically damage Base Naruto. At least there is enough evidence/explanation there supporting that stance. There is nothing supporting Gaara being able to block that strike. the only way it makes sense given everything above is if it's an EXTREMELY casual Momoshiki (Which funny enough, "this" is also an example of this same principle imo (KCM Naruto tanks a casual MJBTO palm that shatters Sasuke's Susanoo Ribs)).

Otherwise, it just makes no sense, and I don't see enough evidence to support any of them scaling and without so much as an explanation, unless I missed something critical, this entire ordeal outside of Sasuke & Naruto's own strength, is PIS. I personally would think it's reasonable if Gaara was >= Madara after all these years, given where he was in the 4thGSW, as there some evidence that regular ninja "can" approach that level of power before reaching their prime age, but even then I need an explanation or consistency (One Battle with 1 instance isn't consistency), w/o an explanation, even if it was a BS one, I can't get myself over those hurdles. So no, I don't personally scale the 5 Kage to Momo & Kin. It's PIS & Outliers w/o Support.

And some of you will disagree, and that's fine. as I said, I'm not looking to change this on the wiki and unless anyone can show solid proof of consistency or an explanation, you likely won't change my mind, not that it matters though.

Even in Shippuden, we had Non-god tiers keep up and damage God tiers.... Sakura and Gai.

It is not that Six Paths Chakra was an enhancer to God Tier potency status, but rather that it was needed to bypass the specific invulnerability of Juubi jins towards regular ninjutsu made from normal chakra. So was Senjutsu needed as well. Otsutsuki don’t have this invulnerability to ninjutsu like juubi jins. Kaguya as an Otsutsuki has it because of her status as a Juubi jin as well.

Personally my criteria for scaling in-verse is if both characters can match each other in AP or CQC for a sustained period, rather than just tagging a character or dodging one attack.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Finding a Kishimoto double spread that doesn't hit hard asf challenge (LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE)

 

[Hasty12345]

Who invited tobirama to that panel?

His presence completely ruins it.

 

[Gokukid2005]

I love this double spread, my boi finally got the recognition

Ever since I found out Ikemoto draws the mobs in Naruto, Its so easy to spot his art style with the characters

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Literally better than 100% of Boruto's double spreads (they don't exist )

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Rent Free

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Me and @UchihaSlayer96 decided to make a general boruto server for just chilling and chatting, if you feel so inclined yall are free to join

Join the Lemon Burger Enjoyers Discord Server!

Check out the Lemon Burger Enjoyers community on Discord - hang out with 22 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

discord.gg

 

[Gokukid2005]

Says links invalid

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Even in Shippuden, we had Non-god tiers keep up and damage God tiers.... Sakura and Gai.

Gai had to use 8th Gate of Death. Sakura is an Outlier & PIS. Again, goes back to those, "extenuating factors" I discussed, which Gai's case is.

It is not that Six Paths Chakra was an enhancer to God Tier potency status

It was.

But rather that it was needed to bypass the specific invulnerability of Juubi jins towards regular ninjutsu made from normal chakra.

It did both as SPC is still some level comparable to Senjutsu.

So was Senjutsu needed as well. Otsutsuki don’t have this invulnerability to ninjutsu like juubi jins.

Well for starters, that invulnerability is a product of Yin/Yang release, which is not gate kept by JJ's as Kaguya had it, Hagoromo, Hamura, Toneri, etc. It's an ability, not an exclusive trait.

Personally my criteria for scaling in-verse is if both characters can match each other in AP or CQC for a sustained period, rather than just tagging a character or dodging one attack.

I also agree with this. It's just that I also look at in-verse logic & reasoning to justify said character doing that. If it's highly consistent despite no reasoning & Justification and no contradictions, then it is what it is, I can't argue with it. One instance isn't sufficient for me personally and If I believe there is evidence or reasoning that say otherwise, then I'm not going to accept something that has no in-verse justification.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

take your time. but also another question (to add to the others lol)

where do you scale Adult Sakura and Adult Shin

So I'm not 100% familiar with Sakura's fight in the novels with the one Anbu guy. Supposedly they created this drug that gives them V2 Transformations based on Naruto's Chakra? I think I've seen scaling that attempts to scale Sakura near Naruto and Sasuke because of it, and I disagree with it personally. If there is no evidence that says that Chakra Drug is equivalent to Naruto's chakra 1:1, or qualifies it in any capacity near that, I look at it as White Zetsu, Danzou, Obito, Code, Daemon, etc.

DNA carries chakra, of course, but that doesn't mean the chakra gained from that DNA is equivalent to the Original 1:1. Danzou isn't comparable to Hashirama just because he has his chakra and DNA. White Zetsu, being composed of almost all Hashirama Cells, isn't Comparable to the true article. Nobody with Shibai DNA is comparable to Shibai 1:1 just because they've been modified with his DNA.

So just because someone has a Chakra drug that's been highly modified to give them Naruto's Chakra and V2 cloak, doesn't mean they are comparable to Naruto, unless stated or implied (Again, not too familiar with the fight). So that being said, based on everything I know, Sakura is COMFORTABLY above Tsunade, but I can't say she's on Madara or Hashirama's level. Shin scales to her.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Where do you have Pre-Betrayal Kaguya at? Unknown?

Yup.

We can agree to disagree here

If I may ask, what would be the disagreements? I'm open to changing my mind.

I agree here although pretty sure we established SM Mitsuki actually broke through Ryu's Iron Sand with his own snakes, so he should at the very least be low end relative to Ryu.

But what does "Low End Relative" mean exactly? If SM Mitsuki is a Blitz and One Shot tier below Ryu's Iron Sand and he broke through it before, that just implies Ryu wasn't taking him serious and holding back in that instance. How can that be quantified for Mitsuki?

He didn't get blitzed at all, he outright dodged Kinshiki's swing and is able to put his guard up before Kinshiki slams his sword down and cuts into him.

Ok, maybe "Blitz" is too strong, but here are the scans in order: Kinshiki flies at him > Chojuro dodges w/ his guard up but is immediately surprised, outsped and guard broken by Kinshiki's ground dash (No Longer Flight Speed, and this is what I consider a "blitz") > Cut by Kinshiki's next move and about to be no-diffed, only getting to retort to Kinshiki's "wide open" remark, that causes him to pause.

Chojuro was gonna be no-diffed in literally 5 movements (Flight Dash > Bull Rush > Guard Break > Wind-Up-Cut > Axe Chop)

Right but why would Momoshiki be running away from the likes of Darui and Gaara if they're so inferior to him like you believe they are.

This is the PIS I'm referring to. Same as Sakura being able react and punch Kaguya who could easily outspeed an urgent Naruto/Sasuke.

They don't actually look similar at all to me. Against Shin, Naruto saw it coming long before it arrived to him and was able to attack in time. He didn't even have a shocked visual effect like we see against Momoshiki. Against Momoshiki, Momo was able to creep/walk up to Naruto before he could even notice and only noticed him once Boruto screamed out his name, to which Momoshiki pretty quickly just sends him flying before he can even respond. He did turn around, yes, but I don't think he saw it coming, it felt like he was processing the fact that Momoshiki was right behind him before he got kicked. The anime kinda changes the position Naruto is facing but the intent is clearly there, he was caught off guard and got kicked in the face right as he locked eyes with Momoshiki.

Again, let me ask you this... Is this not comparable? Naruto is tensed up as this is an invasion/combat scenario. He briefly turns to tell Boruto to get out of there and gets Kicked when Momoshiki attacks, albeit he does react slightly before getting kicked. How is that different from Sasuke kicking Jigen whom is focused solely on Naruto and caught by surprise from Sasuke? Both are "Off-Guard" if we're being stringent. This is why I explained everything as I did. I feel it's valid & reasonable given everything we know about both and what we know Momoshiki knows. Again, "personally".

Good point. But as I stated before, Momoshiki and Kinshiki sensed many large chakras in one place, which would be weird phrasing if they were just talking about Naruto and Sasuke. It's likely they're referring to the Kage's as well.

Well I did say he assessed the Kage's too, not just Naruto.

To add on to this point, it makes no sense for Momoshiki to run away from the likes of Darui (and Gaara), if he doesn't consider them strong, because as you said, he did size up the Kage's and he considers them to have large chakras.

Again, PIS.

Another thing, how do you explain Naruto reacting, dodging and blocking attacks from Fused Momoshiki if you consider Momoshiki kicking Naruto away not an off-guard feat.

This opens up a whole new can on how I view SPSM Naruto vs Base Naruto (And people will come at my throat for it, I know...). If you want me to expand on this, i'll do it later but this is the "Short Version": SPSM isn't a huge buff over Base Naruto, thus, Fused Momoshiki isn't a "huge" buff over Base Momoshiki. Base Naruto is able to hold his own, High-Diff, but is eventually overwhelmed.

1. Base Momoshiki Physically ~ Base Naruto Physically
2. Fused Momoshiki Physically ~ SPSM Naruto Physically

My reasoning for this, and again, I will expand on it later if you want, is that Naruto is buffed in Base the same as he is in SPSM due to having SPC. "Kurama's Chakra Strength" is much weaker than the SPC he received from Hagoromo. Thus, the buff Naruto gets from stacking SPC & Kurama's Chakra is not significant, in my eyes. Yes, he gains things that he doesn't innately have without its usage (Chakra Cloak, Enhanced Sensory Capabilities, etc), but from a stats perspective, the "Buff" isn't significant.

By the way, when I say that, I mean much less than 2x (Not even close to it). I consider a "Significant Buff" 2x and up (Speed Stats aren't factored).

To illustrate this, I think Base Naruto post receiving SPC (War Arc) one shots BSM Naruto (War Arc), whom I have far more stronger than a hypothetical 100% Kurama Biju Mode Naruto (War Arc).

Well yes, but that's because of his Kurama Mode which he already saw him use in the Chunin Exams. Not only that but because of how long it was taking to extract Kurama's chakra from his body. Not necessarily ONLY because he's "way stronger" than them all.

Fair, but I do believe it's everything together.

 

[KingogKings777]

I miss double spreads

 

[Kayzz]

Gai had to use 8th Gate of Death. Sakura is an Outlier & PIS. Again, goes back to those, "extenuating factors" I discussed, which Gai's case is.

It was.

It did both as SPC is still some level comparable to Senjutsu.

Well for starters, that invulnerability is a product of Yin/Yang release, which is not gate kept by JJ's as Kaguya had it, Hagoromo, Hamura, Toneri, etc. It's an ability, not an exclusive trait.

The invulnerability to ninjutsu was only portrayed by Juubi Jins (Kaguya included). Neither Obito or Madara were invulnerable till they sealed the juubi within them. Their only way of cancelling ninjutsu before juubi-absorption was through rinnegan absorption.. You can see how easily an off-guarded Juubito's flesh gets torn apart by SM rasengan because senjutsu bypasses the invulnerability. That's how terrible the base durability is to ninjutsu without invulnerability. And SM Naruto wasn't even god tier.

Having Six Paths chakra alone does not make someone invulnerable to ninjutsu. Sasuke definitely is not invulnerable.. Only Juubi jin Hagoromo would qualify.

Hamura, Toneri and what other Otsutsuki be damned. They dont have invulnerability. They are getting f***ed up by powerful ninjutsu if their guard isn’t up.

 

[Nierre]

So I'm not 100% familiar with Sakura's fight in the novels with the one Anbu guy. Supposedly they created this drug that gives them V2 Transformations based on Naruto's Chakra? I think I've seen scaling that attempts to scale Sakura near Naruto and Sasuke because of it, and I disagree with it personally. If there is no evidence that says that Chakra Drug is equivalent to Naruto's chakra 1:1, or qualifies it in any capacity near that, I look at it as White Zetsu, Danzou, Obito, Code, Daemon, etc.

DNA carries chakra, of course, but that doesn't mean the chakra gained from that DNA is equivalent to the Original 1:1. Danzou isn't comparable to Hashirama just because he has his chakra and DNA. White Zetsu, being composed of almost all Hashirama Cells, isn't Comparable to the true article. Nobody with Shibai DNA is comparable to Shibai 1:1 just because they've been modified with his DNA.

So just because someone has a Chakra drug that's been highly modified to give them Naruto's Chakra and V2 cloak, doesn't mean they are comparable to Naruto, unless stated or implied (Again, not too familiar with the fight). So that being said, based on everything I know, Sakura is COMFORTABLY above Tsunade, but I can't say she's on Madara or Hashirama's level. Shin scales to her.

I'm not familiar with the novel at all, I've never read it.

I mostly wanted to hear if you scaled Shin to Naruto and Sasuke (and if not why) but based on your response I can tell you don't lol


I'll respond to your other stuff maybe tomorrow if I'm free

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The invulnerability to ninjutsu was only portrayed by Juubi Jins (Kaguya included). Neither Obito or Madara were invulnerable till they sealed the juubi within them. Their only way of cancelling ninjutsu before juubi-absorption was through rinnegan absorption.. You can see how easily an off-guarded Juubito's flesh gets torn apart by SM rasengan because senjutsu bypasses the invulnerability. That's how terrible the base durability is to ninjutsu without invulnerability. And SM Naruto wasn't even god tier.

Having Six Paths chakra alone does not make someone invulnerable to ninjutsu. Sasuke definitely is not invulnerable.. Only Juubi jin Hagoromo would qualify.

Hamura, Toneri and what other Otsutsuki be damned. They dont have invulnerability. They are getting f***ed up by powerful ninjutsu if their guard isn’t up.

Okay, two things.
#1, Senjutsu is a weakness for Juubi Jinchuriki, it's not that they have bad durability generally speaking.
#2, I actually don't think Kaguya has showcased ninjutsu invulnerability tmk. And since she's not really a Juubi Jin technically speaking, I'm not sure if she has it tbh. I can see how it'd be arguable, though.

 

[Kayzz]

Okay, two things.
#1, Senjutsu is a weakness for Juubi Jinchuriki, it's not that they have bad durability generally speaking.
#2, I actually don't think Kaguya has showcased ninjutsu invulnerability tmk. And since she's not really a Juubi Jin technically speaking, I'm not sure if she has it tbh. I can see how it'd be arguable, though.

1. I don't know about that being a weakness in the sense that nature energy lowers their durability, just that it made ninjutsu effective against Juubi Jins. However, I chuck it that Juubito was off-guarded so the attack dealt more damage than it should.

2. Kaguya would get the benefit for merging with the Juubi. Personally, I believe she's a juubi jin because there's no other way to explain what she is logically within the context of the verse.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

1. I don't know about that being a weakness in the sense that nature energy lowers their durability, just that it made ninjutsu effective against Juubi Jins. However, I chuck it that Juubito was off-guarded so the attack dealt more damage than it should.

It's verbatim stated to be and treated like a weakness by everyone involved, I have no reason to doubt that.

2. Kaguya would get the benefit for merging with the Juubi.

I don't see why, the Juubi itself doesn't have Ninjutsu immunity.

Personally, I believe she's a juubi jin because there's no other way to explain what she is logically within the context of the verse.

There is, and it's exactly what we're told and shown. She fused with the Juubi and they became one being for all intents and purposes.

 

[Kayzz]

It's verbatim stated to be and treated like a weakness by everyone involved, I have no reason to doubt that.

I didn't see anywhere stated nature energy lowers the durability of juubi jins. We have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't see why, the Juubi itself doesn't have Ninjutsu immunity.

There is, and it's exactly what we're told and shown. She fused with the Juubi and they became one being for all intents and purposes.

This could be a possibility making it 50/50 for Kaguya. However, we know certain skills can appear based on auto-containing the juubi and controlling it's chakra. I don't see the juubi using TSBs or flight but those only appeared when the juubi was absorbed by Madara and Obito. Even chakra arms became a thing Juubi never used.

 

[BlackeJan]

So how is Adult Hinata High 6C in the storm games?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I didn't see anywhere stated nature energy lowers the durability of juubi jins. We have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not sure what's vague about the word "weakness", and people like Minato thinking they could hurt Madara with a Sage Rasengan, but sure. Let's agree to disagree on this.

This could be a possibility making it 50/50 for Kaguya. However, we know certain skills can appear based on auto-containing the juubi and controlling it's chakra. I don't see the juubi using TSBs or flight but those only appeared when the juubi was absorbed by Madara and Obito. Even chakra arms became a thing Juubi never used.

Yes, but Kaguya isn't a Jinchuriki. We don't give Bijū Jinchuriki based powers unless these abilities come from the Bijū itself (ex. Son Goku's Lava Release), and as you said yourself, the Juubi hasn't showcased a ton of the abilities its Jinchuriki showcased.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Got my account back

Send me a friend request @Arc7Kuroi

 

[Kayzz]

Yes, but Kaguya isn't a Jinchuriki. We don't give Bijū Jinchuriki based powers unless these abilities come from the Bijū itself (ex. Son Goku's Lava Release), and as you said yourself, the Juubi hasn't showcased a ton of the abilities its Jinchuriki showcased.

A jinchuriki is a person who has a Tailed beast contained in their body. I don't think there's stated another specialty requirement beyond this. It's not the sealing tech, since Naruto as hokage is still considered a jinchuriki.

If we follow the logic that Kaguya has the juubi contained in her body, then she is equally a jinchuriki. The Juubi and Otsutsuki have been clearly separated as their own unique existence in Boruto and further buttressed by the existence of Jura, so that means Kaguya at some point didn't have the juubi in her or rather, wasn't the juubi.