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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

MinatoSparkle said:
Thoughts on the top 10 fastest Naruto characters (no Blank Period or Boruto Era)?
Click to expand...
I will answer my own question cause why not :cool:

1. DMS Kakashi (can also put resolve amped SPSM Naruto here but I didn't wanna count him)
2. IT Kaguya
3/4. Ashura Avatar Naruto/Indra Susanoo Sasuke
5/6. 3 Eyed Juubidara/Kaguya fight Sakura
7/8. DMS Obito/8th Gate Guy
9/10. 6th Gate Lee/KCM Minato

Hagoromo could be anywhere from 3rd to 9th, and Tenseigan Hamura's probably 1st or 2nd if he's above Toneri, with his Kaguya fight form likely being 7th to 9th
 
Ghostimuscrime said:
I'm fine with them scaling to the same ballpark and if someone flat out wants to scale them to fully to base momo and kin I wont oppose them but feel like the evidence isnt that strong
Click to expand...
im thinking something....

not including speed, really only Gaara objectively scales to them
 
what if they all just downscaled, we know they're strong enough to the point of not getting atomized just by being beside them, they can take damage and get beat up but still fight and even make momoshiki feel like escaping instead of walking close and one shotting people like darui, so them getting scaled to the same ballpark should be a nice way to patch things up IMO
 
Does anyone know where the 7-B tiers for Naruto characters comes from? Is it Gaara's sand or maybe Deidara's explosions, or Sound 4, honestly idk.
 
Last edited:
downscale from H7A Katon from CS2 Sasuke.

CS1 Sauce is currently accepted 10x weaker, so he is 7-A

CS1's value isn't far from baseline 7A, so Base Hebi Sauce downscales to baseline 7A and scales to a couple of people, some Akatsuki members.

Jounin like Kakashi or Base Guy downscale to 7B+ because they're noticeably inferior to the Baseline 7As but can keep up alright enough to not get completely destroyed.
 
vsbattles.com

Issen Downgrade.....sort of

Hello This thread is courtesy of the basement dwellers That's all Comments regarding scaling would be ignored as this is not a scaling thread. Just a thread to revise Issen. If this thread is accepted, a scaling thread would be pushed out in the distant future. Wait till then Thank you
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Yo...Fighting Tobirama in the Warring States must've been more nerve racking than Madara or Hashirama.

Imagine being the first person he used Shadow Clones against and hearing about it in passing. Ontoo of that, FTG... Imagine fighting Edo's for the first time? 😬

I'd be more scared of Tobirama based on his unknown and niche arsenal than Madara and Hashirama. Dude was the John Wick of NV.
 
I'd be equally scared cause ik all of them can blitz and one shot me. Maybe I'd be a bit less scared of Hashirama cause of the chance that he'll spare me if I surrender.
 
I'll be more scared of tobirama ngl
Up until that point, the only clones that existed was the illusory version
Imagine finding out clones can now fight
That's the type of thing than changes one's belief system
And don't get me started on teleportation
With Madara/Hashirama, you'll be scared but you still have an idea of what you're getting into
 
Nierre said:
@NeoKingOfLight @Ghostimuscrime do you guys scale the 5 Kage to Momoshiki and Kinshiki?
Click to expand...
@Nierre
Attempt #2

So.... in my personal opinion (I'm not looking to change whatever the consensus is on the wiki), "No". I do not scale the 5 Kage to Momo & Kin. This is because in my mind, it makes absolutely no sense. Let me break it down...
  • In Shippuden, SPC was the difference between God Tier and High Tier, with EMPHASIS!
Madara & Hashirama were viewed as the pinnacle of what a shinobi could achieve without extenuating factors (Biju Chakra, Six Paths Chakra, Etc.) and it wasn't "solely" based on them being Reincarnates as other Shinobi like Itachi & Minato, for example, were already scratching at the door to their level of power before reaching their primes before they got sick and/or died, and Characters like Naruto, despite being a Reincarnate, wasn't comparable in strength w/o the strongest Biju's Chakra being amped by NE, and their power still was viewed as a myth. This level of power is completely eclipsed by the advent of SPC. Even "Mindless" Juubito, w/o full control of that chakra CASUALLY eclipsed Edo SM Hashirama. That level only CONTINUED to grow (Mindless Juubito w/o full Control < Juubito w/ Full Control < Six Paths Madara Chakra Strength < Kaguya's Chakra Strength, etc). The difference in power between those with SPC and any other Chakra was staggering, and it took Naruto & Sasuke gaining SPC from the So6P just to be comparable and have a fighting chance against Otsutsuki level foes, and I don't subscribe to the notion the average character in Naruto with regular chakra and expert level CC, as most Kage's are, can make that jump in power w/o, again, extenuating factors. Yes, consider me incredulous here.

This is where I begin to focus on Gaara primarily in relation to the Six Paths/Otsutsuki tier (the others will obviously fall below him). First, let me start with Naruto & Sasuke. The ONLY reason I believe Naruto & Sasuke are stronger than the War Arc is because in "The Last" (Movie) & "Boruto Era" (Manga), they showcased New Jutsu and Mastery over their Abilities/Doujutsu that they didn't have before, which OBVIOUSLY implies training occurred, which means they can be assumed to have gotten stronger (NOTE: I do not personally take "The Last" Novelization over the movie, which is the primary canon. And if you want to bring up the Shueisha "timelines", they are all contradictory in some form, IN THAT, you have one with the Novelization and not the Movie, and one without it but the Movie is listed, One that canonizes the Boruto Movie, etc etc. For me, and speaking only for me, that shows a lack of consistency. The only "Naruto Canon" I adhere to is: Minato & Kushina OS, Chapters 1-700, Blank Period Novels / The Last movie, Mitsuki OS, Boruto Academy Arcs / Sarada Chapters / Retsudan Novels, Boruto Manga & "Character Characterization" Post- Academy Arcs, not "events").
  • Momoshiki & Kinshiki conundrum.
So, here we have characters who are "supposedly" stronger than Kaguya in the form of Momoshiki & Kinshiki (I say that because, again, speaking strictly from my own personal pov, they aren't stronger than Kaguya. Based on what we know now, Kaguya, being the Kinshiki of her team with Isshiki, was never supposed to eat CF's. Only the leaders of the Duo's get to eat CF's, thus, being as Momoshiki is the one who eats the CF's and not all CF's are equal in power as they are based on the populace of X Planet, and they had no idea what was going on with each other over the 1000+ years, Kaguya being "frightened" of Momoshiki & Kinshiki showing up is warranted because she has no idea how strong he may be after 1000+ years of CF hunting. And even if you disagree with my stance on this, you have to concede at least it's not a "baseless" assertion, but rather reasonable. Luckily though, i'm not arguing it here on the wiki...). Imo, it is illogical for Gaara to be scaling anywhere near this level and that's because: (1) We are told that Naruto, after becoming Kage for many years became stagnant & rusty due to the mostly "Peaceful" era post 4thGSW, meaning he had not progressed from the level he achieved prior to becoming Kage. (2) To assert Gaara, while an active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became stagnant & rusty under, ascended from being a plaything for Edo Madara to Stronger than Kaguya, with 0 justification given, which would be a far larger jump in power than even Naruto & Sasuke got from training post 4thGSW. (3) Unlike Naruto & Sasuke, whom actually had time to train because neither had any real responsibilities (Tsunade and Kakashi were Kage, Shikamaru was the Kage assistant handling things), Gaara was an active Kage at this time leading Suna's recovery after the war.

So when we say Gaara, whom had less time to train post-war than Naruto & Sasuke, due to being an active Kage with significant responsibilities, as well as still being an Active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became Stagnant & Rusty under when he became Kage, somehow grew his power to over Kaguya (as the Wiki Accepts Momoshiki > Kaguya), without ANY sort of reasoning, is simply absurd to me.
  • Feats
(1) Chojuro dodges Kinshiki's flight speed, gets his guard broken easily, injured and about to be killed by Kinshiki in 3 moves, only stopping when Chojuro retorts.
(2) Kurotsuchi surprises Kinshiki by popping out of the mound he was already confused by, delivering a punch that did absolutely no damage, only pushing him back.
(3) Chojuro stabs Kinshiki with Chakra Needles after he was pointblank hit by Sasuke's Chidori (Note: Chojuro's Jutsu disrupts the Chakra pathway system, ala, Gentle Fist).
(4) Kurotsuchi physically restrains him with a sealing jutsu while he's being nerfed by Chojuro's ability.
(5) Gaara makes sand platforms for Darui to chase Momoshiki's flight speed. Darui swings on Momoshiki, who blocks.
(6) Momoshiki transforms and goes on a Blitz & One Shot spree with Gaara reacting and blocking one punch with his Sand before getting one tapped too.

This is my Issue... Base Momoshiki is shown surprising and drawing blood from Base Naruto with a Kick (And it's true that Naruto still did "react" to Momoshiki there mind you and the look on his face "wasn't" that of surprise). And given base Naruto vs FM, I don't see how it's logical that any of the Kage's there were a threat to Base Momoshiki "Physically", which was their goal in the first place bc he can absorb ninjutsu. If we refuse to take Momoshiki's feat into account, I don't see why the Kage's feat should be taken into account. If Momoshiki is > Kaguya, it makes sense that he can physically damage Base Naruto. At least there is enough evidence/explanation there supporting that stance. There is nothing supporting Gaara being able to block that strike. the only way it makes sense given everything above is if it's an EXTREMELY casual Momoshiki (Which funny enough, "this" is also an example of this same principle imo (KCM Naruto tanks a casual MJBTO palm that shatters Sasuke's Susanoo Ribs)).

Otherwise, it just makes no sense, and I don't see enough evidence to support any of them scaling and without so much as an explanation, unless I missed something critical, this entire ordeal outside of Sasuke & Naruto's own strength, is PIS. I personally would think it's reasonable if Gaara was >= Madara after all these years, given where he was in the 4thGSW, as there some evidence that regular ninja "can" approach that level of power before reaching their prime age, but even then I need an explanation or consistency (One Battle with 1 instance isn't consistency), w/o an explanation, even if it was a BS one, I can't get myself over those hurdles. So no, I don't personally scale the 5 Kage to Momo & Kin. It's PIS & Outliers w/o Support.

And some of you will disagree, and that's fine. as I said, I'm not looking to change this on the wiki and unless anyone can show solid proof of consistency or an explanation, you likely won't change my mind, not that it matters though.
 
NeoKingOfLight said:
So, here we have characters who are "supposedly" stronger than Kaguya in the form of Momoshiki & Kinshiki (I say that because, again, speaking strictly from my own personal pov, they aren't stronger than Kaguya. Based on what we know now, Kaguya, being the Kinshiki of her team with Isshiki, was never supposed to eat CF's. Only the leaders of the Duo's get to eat CF's, thus, being as Momoshiki is the one who eats the CF's and not all CF's are equal in power as they are based on the populace of X Planet, and they had no idea what was going on with each other over the 1000+ years, Kaguya being "frightened" of Momoshiki & Kinshiki showing up is warranted because she has no idea how strong he may be after 1000+ years of CF hunting. And even if you disagree with my stance on this, you have to concede at least it's not a "baseless" assertion, but rather reasonable. Luckily though, i'm not arguing it here on the wiki...).
Click to expand...
Well I do agree that Kaguya was afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki due to a multitude of reasons, but I don't think it's far-fetched to say that them as a collective is stronger than Kaguya. You mention earlier that you believe Naruto and Sasuke got stronger:
NeoKingOfLight said:
he ONLY reason I believe Naruto & Sasuke are stronger than the War Arc is because in "The Last" (Movie) & "Boruto Era" (Manga), they showcased New Jutsu and Mastery over their Abilities/Doujutsu that they didn't have before, which OBVIOUSLY implies training occurred, which means they can be assumed to have gotten stronger
Click to expand...
And we see Kinshiki fight Sasuke like three different times, so Kinshiki is obviously relative to Sasuke.
I suppose you believe New Era Sasuke is weaker than Kaguya as well then?
NeoKingOfLight said:
Imo, it is illogical for Gaara to be scaling anywhere near this level and that's because: (1) We are told that Naruto, after becoming Kage for many years became stagnant & rusty due to the mostly "Peaceful" era post 4thGSW, meaning he had not progressed from the level he achieved prior to becoming Kage. (2) To assert Gaara, while an active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became stagnant & rusty under, ascended from being a plaything for Edo Madara to Stronger than Kaguya, with 0 justification given, which would be a far larger jump in power than even Naruto & Sasuke got from training post 4thGSW. (3) Unlike Naruto & Sasuke, whom actually had time to train because neither had any real responsibilities (Tsunade and Kakashi were Kage, Shikamaru was the Kage assistant handling things), Gaara was an active Kage at this time leading Suna's recovery after the war.

So when we say Gaara, whom had less time to train post-war than Naruto & Sasuke, due to being an active Kage with significant responsibilities, as well as still being an Active Kage under the same conditions that Naruto became Stagnant & Rusty under when he became Kage, somehow grew his power to over Kaguya (as the Wiki Accepts Momoshiki > Kaguya), without ANY sort of reasoning, is simply absurd to me.
Click to expand...
What do you mean, "without any reasoning"? Gaara, more than the other Kage sans Naruto, should scale to the Otsutsuki. He outright blocks an attack from Fused Momoshiki. Even if you wanna split AP and Dura, his Sand durability should scale fine. Even if you think the writing is poor for that to be the case, it happened. It's not something you can argue away like the other feats (Kurotsuchi for example).

Little off topic, but where do you scale Shikamaru's speed? He reacts to Delta like once or twice IIRC. Also this whole incredulous angle ur going for may be more debunked later as we continue in TBV as Sarada, Mitsuki and Konohamaru seem to be handling themselves so far (Yes I know how you feel about the scaling, and I'm pretty sure you and I see eye to eye on it, but I think it's ridiculous to think that they won't eventually reach tier 5 [if they aren't already]).
NeoKingOfLight said:
(1) Chojuro dodges Kinshiki's flight speed, gets his guard broken easily, injured and about to be killed by Kinshiki in 3 moves, only stopping when Chojuro retorts.
Click to expand...
NeoKingOfLight said:
(3) Chojuro stabs Kinshiki with Chakra Needles after he was pointblank hit by Sasuke's Chidori (Note: Chojuro's Jutsu disrupts the Chakra pathway system, ala, Gentle Fist).
Click to expand...
I personally scale Chojuro to Kinshiki in speed, but don't agree with him scaling in AP or Dura. Chojuro getting his sword knocked away and getting cut up is not grounds for scaling at all IMO. Just because the author didn't show him disintegrating when he got cut does NOT mean he actually scales to him. If Sasuke went and fought a bunch of goons with swords and Sasuke knocks his sword guard and cuts him in his chest, that doesn't mean he scales to Sasuke because "he didn't get obliterated". Also agree with the Chakra Needles point.
NeoKingOfLight said:
(2) Kurotsuchi surprises Kinshiki by popping out of the mound he was already confused by, delivering a punch that did absolutely no damage, only pushing him back.
Click to expand...
NeoKingOfLight said:
(4) Kurotsuchi physically restrains him with a sealing jutsu while he's being nerfed by Chojuro's ability.
Click to expand...
Also completely agree with Kurotsuchi not scaling to Kinshiki as well FRA.
NeoKingOfLight said:
(5) Gaara makes sand platforms for Darui to chase Momoshiki's flight speed. Darui swings on Momoshiki, who blocks.
Click to expand...
Darui is a bit weird because he does very much pressure Momoshiki, but Momoshiki pretty easily blocks his attack. He seems moreso worried that they're fast enough to keep up with him, but I don't deny that they pose a threat to Momoshiki because otherwise he'd have no issues dealing with Darui and wouldn't have opted to running away.
NeoKingOfLight said:
This is my Issue... Base Momoshiki is shown surprising and drawing blood from Base Naruto with a Kick (And it's true that Naruto still did "react" to Momoshiki there mind you and the look on his face "wasn't" that of surprise). And given base Naruto vs FM, I don't see how it's logical that any of the Kage's there were a threat to Base Momoshiki "Physically", which was their goal in the first place bc he can absorb ninjutsu. If we refuse to take Momoshiki's feat into account, I don't see why the Kage's feat should be taken into account. If Momoshiki is > Kaguya, it makes sense that he can physically damage Base Naruto. At least there is enough evidence/explanation there supporting that stance. There is nothing supporting Gaara being able to block that strike. the only way it makes sense given everything above is if it's an EXTREMELY casual Momoshiki (Which funny enough, "this" is also an example of this same principle imo (KCM Naruto tanks a casual MJBTO palm that shatters Sasuke's Susanoo Ribs)).
Click to expand...
I don't agree with your incredulous angle tbh so I won't tackle that, but can you expand on the Momoshiki kicking Naruto point? Why don't you think it's an off-guard feat? Or do you?

Though I will say it makes no sense for Momoshiki to be extremely casual against Momoshiki and not against Naruto. He hadn't faced Naruto up until that point (yeah he kicked him, but I personally think it was an off guard feat, but also, it's not like Momoshiki was impressed Naruto survived the kick anyway, he easily dodged Naruto's attacks when he came to), but he did spend time running away from Gaara (and Darui), it makes no sense for him to be extremely casual against Gaara, and then right after go tryhard mode against Base Naruto. It just makes more sense for him to have been trying the whole time, rather than just assuming he wasn't against Gaara, but was against Base Naruto.
NeoKingOfLight said:
Otherwise, it just makes no sense, and I don't see enough evidence to support any of them scaling and without so much as an explanation, unless I missed something critical, this entire ordeal outside of Sasuke & Naruto's own strength, is PIS. I personally would think it's reasonable if Gaara was >= Madara after all these years, given where he was in the 4thGSW, as there some evidence that regular ninja "can" approach that level of power before reaching their prime age, but even then I need an explanation or consistency (One Battle with 1 instance isn't consistency), w/o an explanation, even if it was a BS one, I can't get myself over those hurdles. So no, I don't personally scale the 5 Kage to Momo & Kin. It's PIS & Outliers w/o Support.

And some of you will disagree, and that's fine. as I said, I'm not looking to change this on the wiki and unless anyone can show solid proof of consistency or an explanation, you likely won't change my mind, not that it matters though.
Click to expand...
That's fine, I don't agree with some of what you said, but I do agree with some other things. I just wanna pick ur brain a bit
 
naruto should have shared his chakra for all the kages like how hag did. Would have explained a lot.

Also gaara blocked a barrage of fused momo ninjutsu later on. Gaara is just like sakura, because of their progression as the main cast they are going to overlap with the main character power level at some point. At least they didn't just watch naruto and sasuke battles and suddenly get to their level like kirrilin.
 
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