Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

[Arc7Kuroi]

Naruto doesn’t have a lot of speed multipliers or light dodging feats I feel. Like it’s easy to argue they’re lightspeed and FTL it’s just getting them higher that’s difficult.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Yeah. The lightspeed meta is pretty consistent in Naruto from the start. The main issue is that Naruto takes inspiration from mythologies a lot. So it inevitably has statements that are very vague and flowery. It uses a lot of similes and metaphors instead of concrete statements (which grates on my nerves). Something like JJK or OPM is the opposite of Naruto for the most part. They are more scientific in nature and so have a lot of concrete statements and references to verified scientific concepts that come handy while scaling. Also Naruto's vague and metaphorical writing hurts it's chances of having good multipliers because most of the times, if they do give us numbers to work with, they define increase in "power" rather than something specific like strength or speed.

Even the recent shift towards scientific ninja tools plot line hasn't really helped the franchise that much (except Uzuhiko) because the temperament of the series is still the same (the heart of a shinobi if you will).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

MFTL (they should be 100x faster than these two ig) isn't a strong argument tho

Sure not on its own I'm just saying it isn't charitable. Also it's very very easy when you use Sage Mode as a speed multiplier, which I do in my personal scaling.

Base WA Guy~KCM1 also makes it pretty easy

also, Itachi being FTL is charitable.

Just stated to have LS Water Style

 

[ssgengar]

Naruto doesn’t have a lot of speed multipliers or light dodging feats I feel. Like it’s easy to argue they’re lightspeed and FTL it’s just getting them higher that’s difficult.

Do we treat the feat of Base Guy keeping up with Rinnegan Obito and KCM1 Naruto as an outlier? Bc if we could get them a lil higher then we could get a bit further into FTL with 1st gate and 8th gate

 

[Godernet]

Sure not on its own I'm just saying it isn't charitable. Also it's very very easy when you use Sage Mode as a speed multiplier, which I do in my personal scaling.

fair ig

Base WA Guy~KCM1 also makes it pretty easy

ehhh disagree but I'm not about to get into that now.

Just stated to have LS Water Style

was a mistranslation iirc it was lightning speed.

 

[Kayzz]

reread the Konan portion

Obito calls Izanagi a Jutsu only usable by those with Uchiha and Senju powers(which we know isn’t true for one) to which Konan responds “the six paths power?” To which Obito replies “yes” albeit with a long explanation.

Obito isn’t a reliable narrator for anything Six Paths related at this point in the story.

Obito states "Izanagi, an forbidden Uchiha jutsu where in exchange for losing sight in the eye, a user can tie in reality and illusion".
Calling Izanagi an Uchiha jutsu already negates it being Uchiha and Senju-dna specific jutsu. Obito clearly knows the history of the Izanagi used by the Uchiha.


"An occular jutsu only those with Uchiha and Senju powers can perform"
This statement is independent of the first. In this statement, Obito is introducing and bringing to light the true and original nature of Izanagi which is COAT. It is different from the one the Uchiha use, and it has no negative effect.

COAT (True Izanagi) is Six Paths Power that requires both Uchiha and Senju power, not the Uchiha's forbidden Izanagi.

An ability of the Six Paths does not mean Six Paths chakra.

Yes it does. The rinnegan is not just any ability but specifically called Six paths power. Referred to as the eye/dojutsu of the Six paths.

As one can mimic Hagaromos power for the same result

No.

Six Paths Chakra = Hagaromos Chakra
Six Paths Senjutsu = Juubi Power

Six Paths Chakra is Juubi chakra, inherited by Hagoromo from Kaguya, split into his sons - Ashura and Indra (which when combined becomes six paths chakra), further split down into Uchiha and Senju.

,
Using Asura and Indura’s halves allows you to access certain abilities of the Six Paths but it has never been stated to grant Six Paths Chakra specifically, nor is that what’s shown.

Six Paths chakra isn’t even a term in the manga. What is seen in the manga is Six Paths Power.

Six Paths power are the abilities derived from having and manipulating six paths chakra.

He combines Indura and Asura’s reincarnated chakras to gain a power similar which is why he could awaken a similar Dojutsu but it’s not the same as Hagaromo’s literal chakra.

Hagoromo is not the only one that possesses Six Paths chakra.

But the Rinnegan doesn’t require Hagaromo’s Chakra at all just something similar.

That thing similar is still Six paths chakra.

Or else why do Momoshiki and Urashiki have them?
Because he’s the descendant of Kaguya, who ate the Shinju, all Six Path stuff originated from the Shinju/Juubi.

That’s never fully been the case.

Most of the unique abilities in Naruto are tied to genetics not chakra(hence Kekkai Genkai or Bloodline Limit)

You can gain an ability via similar lineage rather than having the exact same chakra

Momoshiki, Urashiki, Kaguya have six paths chakra, along side Shibai and other Otsutsuki.
They consume and assimilate the chakra of the ten tails in the form of a chakra fruit.

It seems it hard to realize Six paths chakra is just a "term" most likely coined by Hagoromo, for juubi/shinju chakra.
It has been in use even before Hagoromo. Hagoromo just mastered the chakra, and developed his own techniques from it.

 

[Godernet]

Obito states "Izanagi, an forbidden Uchiha jutsu where in exchange for losing sight in the eye, a user can tie in reality and illusion".
Calling Izanagi an Uchiha jutsu already negates it being Uchiha and Senju-dna specific jutsu. Obito clearly knows the history of the Izanagi used by the Uchiha.


"An occular jutsu only those with Uchiha and Senju powers can perform"
This statement is independent of the first. In this statement, Obito is intriducing and bringing to light the true and original nature of Izanagi which is COAT. It is different from the one the Uchiha use, and it has no negative effect.

COAT (True Izanagi) is Six Paths Power that requires both Uchiha and Senju power, not the Uchiha's forbidden Izanagi.

this is all still dancing around the fact that Obito called Izanagi an Uchiha ability(because it's used with the Sharingan) that requires Senju and Uchiha powers(genetics), and treats it as such via his back story about how the Uchiha and Senju used to be one. however, even that isn't true as we learn in Itachi's explanation of Izanami that regular Sharingan Users could use Izanagi with no Senju Powers at all.

So this pm points to Obito just being wrong(which is very likely given he doesn't know the extent of the information on how Hagaromo's abilities work and all of their info came from the Uchiha Tablet which was faulty)

-

Yes it does. The rinnegan is not just any ability but specifically called Six paths power. Referred to the eye/dojutsu of the Six paths.

like i already explained Six Paths power does not have to mean Six Paths Chakra,

utilizing a jutsu Hagaromo created is Six Paths power too.

No.

thats literally what Hagaromo said brotha

Six Paths Chakra is Juubi chakra, inherited by Hagoromo from Kaguya, split into his sons, further split down into Uchiha and Senju.

if this was the case then all Uzumaki, Uchiha, Senju, and Hyuga should have Six Paths Chakra but the series has never treated it this way.

Six Paths power are the abilities derived from having and manipulating six paths chakra.

no, Six Paths Power is Hagaromo's specific chakra and abilities.

Hagoromo is not the only one that possesses Six Paths chakra.

He is the originator of it,

it goes:

Six Paths Senjutsu, a special kind of Nature Energy only found in the Juubi, Juubi Jins, or the direct descendants of Kaguya(Naruto, Juubito, Hagaromo, Hamura, Juubidara, Asura, and Kaguya have all had this.)

then there's Six Paths Chakra, a qualitatively different chakra from the norm that Hagaromo had developed that, he also shared with Naruto and Sasuke with Kakashi getting some from Obito.

- Six Paths Senjutsu provides you with a fundamental understanding of chakra far beyond the norm, a bunch of ninjutsu immunities, TSO as well as immunity to them, flight, etc.

- Six Paths Chakra allows you to interact and resist abilities produced by Six Paths Senjutsu, as well as harm Six Paths Senjutsu users, as well as further enhance all ninjutsu.

- the Rinnegan is a powerful dojutsu gained by the Otsutsuki caused by their continuous evolution through the absorption of Shinju Trees.

Momoshiki, Urashiki, Kaguya have six paths chakra, along side Shibai and other Otsutsuki.
They consume and assimilate the chakra of the ten tails.

that's Six Paths Senjutsu.

It seems it hard to realize Six paths chakra is just a "term" most likely coined by Hagoromo, for juubi/shinju chakra.

even in the story and in the databook, Six Paths Senjutsu is treated differently from Six Paths Powers.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

This is my headcanon for Naruto speed. Do not come for my neck, I will not be debating or teying to get this accepted on the wiki. It’s just my personal view on it outside of wiki related issues:

Part 1:

• LoW - CE: Super-Human / FTE Meta (KK, ZZ & HK are Exceptions: Lightning Timers via KK Lore)
• CE-SR: Super-Sonic / Hypersonic+ Meta (Again, excusing Exceptions: Kage Class / KK Rivals, Unquantifiable amps)

Part 2:

• KZKR - IPA: Lightning Timing / FTLightning Meta (Again, barring exceptions such as unquantifiable amps or downscalers)
• IPA - WA: FTKirin Meta (Same as Above)
• Six Paths Tier (Juubito, SP Madara, 8G Gai, Naruto & Sasuke, DMS Obito/Kakashi): FTAmpedMinato / FTL Reaction (Via Lightfang)
• Kaguya Tier: FTLightfang Meta (Surprised Naruto via the Speed of her Dash more than Lightfang and caught Sasuke off-guard, “While she was still fresh”).
• Beyond Revived Kaguya Tier: She absorbed more chakra and was stated to be far faster than before.

The Last:

• Surpassing Kaguya: Naruto & Sasuke implied to have Trained. Sasuke implied to be > Kaguya Level Threats by time of the Movie Events via a Novel. Tertiary Canon declares Toneri the Strongest Enemy up to that point.

Boruto Era:

• Academy-CE: Lightning Timing Meta for Main Cast of Kids.
• Rise of the Shiki’s: Momoshiki and Kinshiki are strong enough to press Naruto and Sasuke individually. Fused Momoshiki is the true Peer to Naruto and Sasuke, whom should be “At Least” as Fast as their “The Last” Variants.
• MJB - Ao: Still Lightning Timing Meta imo, but faster than Academy-CE.
• Cyborgs Tier: Fast Enough to Press Naruto / Sasuke but not beat them (I personally don’t scale Limited Code over N&S. Over Delta, sure).
• Sukunahikona Rods: Skill not withstanding, Naruto and Sasuke are roughly equal with V1 Jigen, though According to Sasuke, his eyes can “barely” track the speed of the rods.
• Surpassing Naruto & Sasuke: V2 Jigen is Far faster than before.
• Boro Fight: Lighting Timing / FTLightning Meta (I do not accept Boro as anywhere near Delta or Code Level).
• Isshiki Fight: Isshiki and BM Naruto are the peak of the Verse outside of Shibai Level Gods
• Beyond Jigen: Daemon, Limitless Code, Boruto.

TL;DR: BM Naruto >= Isshiki > Daemon > Boruto >= LLCode > V2K Jigen > Naruto/Sasuke/V1K Jigen/Fused Momoshiki > Koji/Code/Delta/Kinshiki/Momoshiki >= TL Naruto/Sasuke/TSG Toneri > Amped Kaguya > Revived Kaguya > Lightfang Speed

As of now, Kawaki, Hima and the Shinju Quartet are floaters for my own personally scaling. I want to see more before I am comfortable scaling them.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

fair ig

ehhh disagree but I'm not about to get into that now.

was a mistranslation iirc it was lightning speed.

It does say light speed

水より生ぜし光速の弾 死角より出で敵を抉らん!!
A bullet born from water at the speed of light, emerging from a blind spot to gouge out the enemy!!

 

[HelloThere1089]

Do not come for my neck

Queue prowler theme

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It does say light speed

水より生ぜし光速の弾 死角より出で敵を抉らん!!
A bullet born from water at the speed of light, emerging from a blind spot to gouge out the enemy!!

Hyperbole gg

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Hello.

My apologies for disturbing, but what do you think about this?

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/M...eadId=4400000000003687846#4400000000014012088

Not sure, curse do amp the user but it might be different for each user considering the genjustu check wasn’t like massively stronger in taijustu.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Imma also post my personal scaling for the series' speed too. But just gonna be talking about Naruto in each of his major versions. Also only talking about normal movement, combat, and reaction speed, not Shunshin cause that's weird to scale.

LoW Base: Superhuman to Subsonic
CE Base: Subsonic to High Hypersonic
SRA base: Hypersonic to High Hypersonic+
Base (until Pain Arc): Massively Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic+
Sage Mode: Sub-Relativistic+ to Relativistic
KCM: Relativistic+ to FTL
KCM2: FTL+ to MFTL
BSM: MFTL to MFTL+
SPSM and beyond: MFTL+++

Hyperbole gg

- Any databook hater

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

- Any databook hater

Yes clearly I hate databooks and databases, and clearly I don’t rely on them for unbiased information regarding scaling. It ain’t hating databooks it’s knowing conventions of writing when it involves fiction.

 

[Damage3245]

Hyperbole gg

Universe level Temari GG

 

[Nierre]

universe level temari fra

 

[SlendVeny]

Universe level Temari GG

I know this is a joke, but the original phrasing was something to the effect of "blows away all things."

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yes clearly I hate databooks and databases, and clearly I don’t rely on them for unbiased information regarding scaling. It ain’t hating databooks it’s knowing conventions of writing when it involves fiction.

O I thought you were joking and was continuing the joke. But I mean there's a pretty big difference between an isolated usage and all the LS statements for characters in the same general tier (with few exceptions like Haku and Juubidara)

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Universe level Temari GG

With MFTL++++ attack speed

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

O I thought you were joking and was continuing the joke. But I mean there's a pretty big difference between an isolated usage and all the LS statements for characters in the same general tier (with few exceptions like Haku and Juubidara)

I mean in my personal scaling I got Itachi around LS/FTL anyway, so I’m just being a hard ass . I hold different opinions on site vs off site for speed in particular, gotta abide by the standards here.

 

[SlendVeny]

I mean in my personal scaling I got Itachi around LS/FTL anyway, so I’m just being a hard ass . I hold different opinions on site vs off site for speed in particular, gotta abide by the standards here.

If I knew how, I would make my own wiki/forum.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ain’t worth it bruh just like talk to people about scaling on forums and whatnot, no need to slave away making profiles and running a site

 

[ssgengar]

Imma also post my personal scaling for the series' speed too. But just gonna be talking about Naruto in each of his major versions. Also only talking about normal movement, combat, and reaction speed, not Shunshin cause that's weird to scale.

LoW Base: Superhuman to Subsonic
CE Base: Subsonic to High Hypersonic
SRA base: Hypersonic to High Hypersonic+
Base (until Pain Arc): Massively Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic+
Sage Mode: Sub-Relativistic+ to Relativistic
KCM: Relativistic+ to FTL
KCM2: FTL+ to MFTL
BSM: MFTL to MFTL+
SPSM and beyond: MFTL+++

- Any databook hater

How do you get characters to mftl+?

 

[HelloThere1089]

How do you get characters to mftl+?

Run massively faster than a lizard I guess.

 

[SlendVeny]

Ain’t worth it bruh just like talk to people about scaling on forums and whatnot, no need to slave away making profiles and running a site

If I ever acquire an unpaid intern, I will put them to work on this.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean in my personal scaling I got Itachi around LS/FTL anyway, so I’m just being a hard ass .

Bruh

I hold different opinions on site vs off site for speed in particular, gotta abide by the standards here.

I don't see how the standards prevent the Water Fang Bullet from being valid

How do you get characters to mftl+?

Stacking Sage Mode multipliers and blitz tiers because Tendo who's relative to Base Naruto reacted to SM Naruto, meaning if you're a blitz tier above someone, you're more than a Sage Mode multiplier above them in speed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't see how the standards prevent the Water Fang Bullet from being valid

Ima let you think about what I meant but I’m not gonna argue with you since I don’t exactly disagree with LS Itachi.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Is the Kirin calc outdated since it was before Kirin was accepted as Light Speed?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Aren’t there a couple different statements for lightspeed stuff? What were the arguments against it?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Aren’t there a couple different statements for lightspeed stuff? What were the arguments against it?

Currently I think it's just that implementing them needs to wait for the P2 speed revisions

 

[Testarossa002]

Aren’t there a couple different statements for lightspeed stuff? What were the arguments against it?

Tldr
Sasuke scaling to Haku: Outlier
Kirin: Nobody scales to it
Lariat: Flowery language
Ay>>Haku: Sus source of information
Mifune: Uh, idek the main arguments against that
LS Teleportation: Faulty calc assumptions
Itachi: flowery language

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Speaking of Kirin, is it correct to say the “major” speed scale anchor points in the franchise are (Strictly Manga, no Databook or other sources):

1. Naruto blitzing Samurai
2. Gaara’s Automatic Sand Shield
3. Kakuzu’s False Darkness
4. Itachi reacting to Kirin
5. Naruto dodging Lightfang

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Also… doesn’t this shut down MS Sasuke scaling to a Blind Itachi?

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Is the Kirin calc outdated since it was before Kirin was accepted as Light Speed?

Which one, mhs+ kirin speed calculation?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Kirin: Nobody scales to it

Technically whether it's Mach 8089 or LS wouldn't sick and partially blind Itachi's MS Perception scale to it since he was able to summon a skeletal Susano'o in order to survive?

Perception Speed
The timeframe it takes for a character to notice an event or reaction. But crucially, this does not grant any movement; at most, it allows the user to activate a thought-based ability.

Mifune: Uh, idek the main arguments against that

IIRC the arguments against a solid rating were because of this:

possibly Speed of Light attack speed with Issen (The Naruto databook states that Mifune's usage of this technique has a 'light-speed sword' but the only case of him using it is when he was enhanced by Kurama's chakra)

 

[Testarossa002]

Technically whether it's Mach 8089 or LS wouldn't sick and partially blind Itachi's MS Perception scale to it since he was able to summon a skeletal Susano'o in order to survive?

I mean, sure
The problem is, it won't do much for combat speed
I can't recall anyone actually blitzing itachi and by extension, EMS Sasuke’s perception
Maybe Juubito?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Which one, mhs+ kirin speed calculation?

6-C

 

[KingogKings777]

Tldr
Mifune: Uh, idek the main arguments against that

Doesn't he only use that against the 10 tail creatures that mindlessly charge at him?

 

[Sasukesama0492]

6-C

I think not, if we substitute the speed of light in this calculation, the result is High 6-A (5 Exaton)

 

[Damage3245]

I think not, if we substitute the speed of light in this calculation, the result is High 6-A (5 Exaton)

Different values; the speed of the Kirin doesn't have anything to do with that calc so wouldn't matter if it was lightning speed or lightspeed for that.