The_Alxhemist
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The revisions are going to be epic! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).
When are we starting btw?
When are we starting btw?
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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
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Shouldn’t Neji’s AP also be scaled to Gates Lee in that case? If Lee thinks he hasn’t surpassed Neji yet, then it would be logical to say Neji > Gates Lee.
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@LordTracer; we probably covered it back in the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be because Neji's fighting style revolves around deflecting incoming attacks and targetting pressure points.
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Lee did say Neji was stronger than him immediately after talking about the Gentle Fist, so ig that’s a fair point.
On another note I’ve come across something kinda weird with Part I Neji’s scaling. Kankurō compared Neji to Gaara (albeit indirectly), and a partially transformed Gaara was on par with base Naruto. But Neji was able to easily blitz and stomp base Naruto and his clones. So how exactly would that be justified?
Would Kankurō‘s statement just be disregarded and Neji would scale significantly above Gaara? Or would Naruto matching partially transformed Gaara be an outlier?
On another note I’ve come across something kinda weird with Part I Neji’s scaling. Kankurō compared Neji to Gaara (albeit indirectly), and a partially transformed Gaara was on par with base Naruto. But Neji was able to easily blitz and stomp base Naruto and his clones. So how exactly would that be justified?
Would Kankurō‘s statement just be disregarded and Neji would scale significantly above Gaara? Or would Naruto matching partially transformed Gaara be an outlier?
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I need to reread that fight because I'm pretty sure base Naruto wasn't on par with transformed Gaara. He needed fox chakra in order to compete.
Didn't Naruto also feel like Gaara could kill him just earlier in that arc?
Didn't Naruto also feel like Gaara could kill him just earlier in that arc?
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I was just going by the profiles tbh, but if that’s the case, then Naruto’s Konoha Crush key needs heavy changes since his 8-B justification is damaging and defeating partially transformed Gaara.
And if Naruto needed Kyuubi chakra to fight him, then partially transformed Gaara should be Low 7-C+.
And if Naruto needed Kyuubi chakra to fight him, then partially transformed Gaara should be Low 7-C+.
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Base Naruto gets a lot of Emotion Amps that allow him to summon thousands of clones, I guess this could be explained by Kurama giving him chakra
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Also another thing I wanted to talk about, since my thread on the matter wasn’t ever actually resolved. Haku is jōnin level, not genin level like his profile currently has him.
Zabuza said that he was holding back against Naruto and Sasuke, and Sasuke himself reiterated this. Zabuza also said that Haku’s skills surpass his own, and that even if Kakashi beat him, he wouldn’t beat Haku. On top of that, he survived a punch from KN0 Naruto, who appeared to be using more of the Kyuubi chakra than when he performed his Low 7-C+ feat, and Zabuza stated that his chakra was “too strong” to be Kakashi. Then Edo Haku was able to simultaneously react to and block kicks from Base Lee and Base Gai, and briefly brawl with Lee.
So basically, Haku (and KN0 Naruto) should be 7-C (or whatever the jōnin will be revised to), and MHS+. The only people that would scale to this would be Neji (who has his own jōnin level scaling, and not just with Kaiten), Partially Transformed Gaara (maybe even Base Gaara if Kankurō’s Neji ≈ Gaara statement is accepted), KN1 Naruto and CS2 Sasuke (speed only).
Zabuza said that he was holding back against Naruto and Sasuke, and Sasuke himself reiterated this. Zabuza also said that Haku’s skills surpass his own, and that even if Kakashi beat him, he wouldn’t beat Haku. On top of that, he survived a punch from KN0 Naruto, who appeared to be using more of the Kyuubi chakra than when he performed his Low 7-C+ feat, and Zabuza stated that his chakra was “too strong” to be Kakashi. Then Edo Haku was able to simultaneously react to and block kicks from Base Lee and Base Gai, and briefly brawl with Lee.
So basically, Haku (and KN0 Naruto) should be 7-C (or whatever the jōnin will be revised to), and MHS+. The only people that would scale to this would be Neji (who has his own jōnin level scaling, and not just with Kaiten), Partially Transformed Gaara (maybe even Base Gaara if Kankurō’s Neji ≈ Gaara statement is accepted), KN1 Naruto and CS2 Sasuke (speed only).
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Since when did "skills surpassing his own" = AP being higher?
Haku doesn't have any 7-C feats. "Jonin level" should not be a thing when characters who are Jonins can vary greatly from each other in strength.
KN0 Naruto's punch also hit Haku's mask IIRC which may have withstood enough of the impact to let Haku survive the attack.
Naruto at that point in the story is around Supersonic. Do you think it is very consistent for a bit of Kurama chakra (not even enough for a tail) to make him thousands of times faster?
Haku doesn't have any 7-C feats. "Jonin level" should not be a thing when characters who are Jonins can vary greatly from each other in strength.
KN0 Naruto's punch also hit Haku's mask IIRC which may have withstood enough of the impact to let Haku survive the attack.
Naruto at that point in the story is around Supersonic. Do you think it is very consistent for a bit of Kurama chakra (not even enough for a tail) to make him thousands of times faster?
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I mean, if a bit of Kurama's chakra can make him jump from tier 9/8 to Low 7-C+.....then yea it could be possible assuming the scaling is logical of course.
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The skills thing is more supporting evidence than anything tbh.
There is clearly a certain level that most jōnin are at (7-C and MHS+), and we currently scale almost every single jōnin (except Anko and Kurenai, for some reason) to each other.
The mask shattered afterwards, so how much of the impact would it really be taking? And that wouldn’t be enough to like, drop from Low 7-C+ to a lower tier.
If Naruto’s AP can go from 8-B to Low 7-C+ (with less Kyuubi chakra than he used against Haku, I might add), then yes, his speed can go from Supersonic to MHS+. Especially since, again, nobody scales but Neji and Partially Transformed Gaara.
There is clearly a certain level that most jōnin are at (7-C and MHS+), and we currently scale almost every single jōnin (except Anko and Kurenai, for some reason) to each other.
The mask shattered afterwards, so how much of the impact would it really be taking? And that wouldn’t be enough to like, drop from Low 7-C+ to a lower tier.
If Naruto’s AP can go from 8-B to Low 7-C+ (with less Kyuubi chakra than he used against Haku, I might add), then yes, his speed can go from Supersonic to MHS+. Especially since, again, nobody scales but Neji and Partially Transformed Gaara.
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The_Alxhemist
Username Only- 817
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As others above have said it would be consistent and I also want to add that a little bit of Kurama's chakra was enough to amp Kido ( Anbu Captain Sakura fought) and his justus by "several orders of magnitudes. Something similar to that was implied for those that received boosts far weaker than the one Kido got.
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The Haku situation is tricky to handle.
Pre-Chunin Exam Sasuke is significantly faster than 10% Zabuza:
Pre-Chunin Exam Sasuke also surpasses mirrorless-Haku in speed with Zabuza's admission and Haku's confusion:
But after getting Edo Tensei'd (and thus below his peak), Haku is Jonin level:
Zabuza did say that Haku can beat Kakashi, but the context was a brag that Haku is talented, and a statement that Haku's Kekkei Genkai Jutsus are better than Kakashi's Jutsu, so he is likely talking about the mirror or other hax (since the series was still using tactics):
So in early series there is supposedly a x10 multiplier between a talented Genin and a Jonin. We can:
As for Haku we can:
Pre-Chunin Exam Sasuke is significantly faster than 10% Zabuza:
Pre-Chunin Exam Sasuke also surpasses mirrorless-Haku in speed with Zabuza's admission and Haku's confusion:
But after getting Edo Tensei'd (and thus below his peak), Haku is Jonin level:
Zabuza did say that Haku can beat Kakashi, but the context was a brag that Haku is talented, and a statement that Haku's Kekkei Genkai Jutsus are better than Kakashi's Jutsu, so he is likely talking about the mirror or other hax (
So in early series there is supposedly a x10 multiplier between a talented Genin and a Jonin. We can:
- Discard it (my preference)
- Upscale Genin feats to Jonin
- Downscale Jonin feats to Genin
As for Haku we can:
- Roll with the retcon and give Haku two keys
- Retcon early Haku into him secretly holding back his speed
- Ignore Edo Haku feats
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His speed in the LoW Arc is really wonky, but that could just be explained by him holding back like Zabuza and Sasuke said.
I think a good compromise (if Haku can’t be plain 7-C/MHS+) is to give him two tiers. So like ‘At least 8-B, possibly 7-C.’ Basically the same thing that Anko and Kurenai currently have, just replacing the ‘higher’ with 7-Ceven though Anko and Kurenai should just be 7-C like damn near every other jōnin in existence. And for his speed, ‘At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+. Higher via ice mirrors.’
Maybe adding a note explaining the inconsistencies like him holding back and his Edo state would be helpful too.
I think a good compromise (if Haku can’t be plain 7-C/MHS+) is to give him two tiers. So like ‘At least 8-B, possibly 7-C.’ Basically the same thing that Anko and Kurenai currently have, just replacing the ‘higher’ with 7-C
Maybe adding a note explaining the inconsistencies like him holding back and his Edo state would be helpful too.
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Although there is still the thing with KN0 Naruto, I don’t see any reason for him to not just be 7-C. (Btw assuming that Neji has fought Gates Lee in the past, he should be MHS and KN0 Naruto would scale).
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Splitting him into two keys would be an acceptable compromise.
And we've already been over the Neji / Rock Lee situation.
And we've already been over the Neji / Rock Lee situation.
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Cool, then Haku’s justifications could be something like:
AP: At least City Block level (While holding back, [insert current justification here]), possibly Town level (Zabuza stated Kakashi wouldn’t be able to beat him. Clashed with Rock Lee as an Edo Tensei)
Speed; At least Supersonic ([insert current justification here]), possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Zabuza’s shuriken with his senbon. As an Edo Tensei, he reacted to simultaneous attacks from Might Guy and Rock Lee. Defended himself and Zabuza from Sai’s ink birds). Higher via ice mirrors (Intercepted a Raikiri from Kakashi during the Fourth Shinobi World War)
Durability: At least City Block level, possibly Town level (Survived a blow from KN0 Naruto, who was using more of Kurama’s chakra than when he did this. As an Edo Tensei, he blocked the Konoha Hurricane Whirlwinds from Might Guy and Rock Lee)
And for KN0 Naruto:
AP: Town level (Zabuza stated that his chakra was “too strong” to be Kakashi. Stopped the charge of Orochimaru’s snake with a little bit of the Kyuubi’s chakra)
Speed: At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Outsped Haku, preventing him from reaching his ice mirrors)
AP: At least City Block level (While holding back, [insert current justification here]), possibly Town level (Zabuza stated Kakashi wouldn’t be able to beat him. Clashed with Rock Lee as an Edo Tensei)
Speed; At least Supersonic ([insert current justification here]), possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Zabuza’s shuriken with his senbon. As an Edo Tensei, he reacted to simultaneous attacks from Might Guy and Rock Lee. Defended himself and Zabuza from Sai’s ink birds). Higher via ice mirrors (Intercepted a Raikiri from Kakashi during the Fourth Shinobi World War)
Durability: At least City Block level, possibly Town level (Survived a blow from KN0 Naruto, who was using more of Kurama’s chakra than when he did this. As an Edo Tensei, he blocked the Konoha Hurricane Whirlwinds from Might Guy and Rock Lee)
And for KN0 Naruto:
AP: Town level (Zabuza stated that his chakra was “too strong” to be Kakashi. Stopped the charge of Orochimaru’s snake with a little bit of the Kyuubi’s chakra)
Speed: At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Outsped Haku, preventing him from reaching his ice mirrors)
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This would make KN1 and CM2 both MHS+
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Yeah, I mentioned that a while ago. Neji and PT Gaara would also be ‘possibly MHS+’ for keeping up with KN0.
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@LordTracer; that isn't dividing his ratings into two keys.
I thought you were suggesting that we divide him up into his living self tier and his Edo Tensei tier.
I thought you were suggesting that we divide him up into his living self tier and his Edo Tensei tier.
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I think the speed ratings in Naruto really need looking into for how long we're making these scaling chains. Right now the scaling chain for speed is like:
Part 1 Kakashi = Part 1 Kabuto = Tsunade = Orochimaru = Hiruzen = Hashirama Senju
Does anybody really believe that Kakashi in the Land of Waves arc is equal to Hashirama Senju in speed?
Part 1 Kakashi = Part 1 Kabuto = Tsunade = Orochimaru = Hiruzen = Hashirama Senju
Does anybody really believe that Kakashi in the Land of Waves arc is equal to Hashirama Senju in speed?
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The Edo Tensei are weaker than when they were alive though?
And my suggestion basically has the same effect as dividing it into keys, it just allows extra justification and goes with what the series actually said, instead of saying Edo Tensei > Alive (the opposite of what the series said).
Also Hashirama is Rel and Part I Kakashi is MHS+? So...
And my suggestion basically has the same effect as dividing it into keys, it just allows extra justification and goes with what the series actually said, instead of saying Edo Tensei > Alive (the opposite of what the series said).
Also Hashirama is Rel and Part I Kakashi is MHS+? So...
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Hashirama is rel.
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@LordTracer; according to the descriptions on the profiles of that scaling chain, Kakashi should be scaling to Hashirama at the root.
Hence why I'm pointing out that the speed ratings need to be looked at more.
> The Edo Tensei are weaker than when they were alive though?
They're supposed to be, but by feats Haku is far superior as an Edo Tensei.
Hence why I'm pointing out that the speed ratings need to be looked at more.
> The Edo Tensei are weaker than when they were alive though?
They're supposed to be, but by feats Haku is far superior as an Edo Tensei.
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It really doesn’t though? Hiruzen’s profile explicitly mentions in his speed justification that Hashirama and Tobirama were weakened when he fought them.
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@LordTracer; then Hiruzen's speed justification needs to be updated to remove mention of Hashirama and Tobirama since they're not actually being used to support his rating.
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That, I do agree with.
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I also think the speed should be looked at more.
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We still end up with a scaling chain like:
Part 1 Kakashi = Part 1 Kabuto = Tsunade = Orochimaru = Hiruzen = Danzo = MS Sasuke (Who gets his rating from fighting Killer B and the Raikage [one of the fastest non-God Tier Shinobi]).
That kind of long scaling chain would be better to be avoided in a perfect world and some of these characters would have their own speed feats they can scale to instead of relying on massive chains.
Part 1 Kakashi = Part 1 Kabuto = Tsunade = Orochimaru = Hiruzen = Danzo = MS Sasuke (Who gets his rating from fighting Killer B and the Raikage [one of the fastest non-God Tier Shinobi]).
That kind of long scaling chain would be better to be avoided in a perfect world and some of these characters would have their own speed feats they can scale to instead of relying on massive chains.
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That also reminds me, why is Tobirama not plain Relativistic? Madara said that he was the fastest shinobi of his era and this part of his justification: “He was able to put several explosive strips on Juubito while he was being attacked” is pretty blatantly movement speed.
There’s also this, where his shadow clone teleports in and grabs a TSO faster than KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke can react, and faster than KCM2 Minato can grab it at point blank range.
There’s also this, where his shadow clone teleports in and grabs a TSO faster than KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke can react, and faster than KCM2 Minato can grab it at point blank range.
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The scaling chain is too long, yeah. Although Tsunade was weakened in her fight with Kabuto, according to the profiles, so Kabuto shouldn’t be equal to her in speed. Especially since by Kakashi’s own admission, Orochimaru is way above him and he can’t even compete with him.
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Honestly unpopular Opinion but I feel Part 1 and part 2 powerscaling should be separated, they really don't mesh, and retroactively scaling makes the stuff arguably worse.
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What scaling chain do you suggest?
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You seriously believe that Part 1 Kakashi could've done anything to Kisame Kin? No offense, but I think that's more ridiculous than the idea that base Jiraiya can beat Itachi and Kisame at once.
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Kisame varies, so... that doesn’t really help your point. And can you perhaps, provide scans of that statement?
Also just saying Kakashi stomps is ignoring what’s actually been shown in the series and seems more like you saying “I don’t think this character is on this level, so they aren’t.” Unless you think Part I Kakashi stomps Might Guy now, considering that Haku could defend against Gai and Lee at the same time.
Also just saying Kakashi stomps is ignoring what’s actually been shown in the series and seems more like you saying “I don’t think this character is on this level, so they aren’t.” Unless you think Part I Kakashi stomps Might Guy now, considering that Haku could defend against Gai and Lee at the same time.
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I think the feats and power scaling for Part 1 should stay in part 1 and the feats for part 2 and it's scaling should stay in part 2. so no backward scaling from part 2 to part 1 just because how Inconsistent the two parts are in regards to scaling and the power system of the verse.
Even if it means having to have different keys for characters for part 1 and part 2.
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- Thread starter
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Not only Itachi's statement happened after Zabuza's but also he was one of the knowledgable as well as one of the smartest characters in the series itself. Of course, his statements take prioritise than Zabuza's. He did say and imply Kisame would have suffered injuries if he fought Kakashi. Severe or not, Kakashi should somewhat scale to Kisame. Unless you're saying Haku is Akatsuki's level.
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What i meant was what changes do you have in mind for them?
