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Naruto scales to the edo jinjuriki who in turn scale to six gate guy.
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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
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Even if we stick strictly to the manga, claiming Rinnegone Sasuke is on par with Borushiki is still clearly flawed. The scaling is straightforward:
Kawashiki ~ Full-power Borushiki > Code > Delta ≈ SPSM Naruto ≈ Healthy Rinnegan Sasuke > Fatigued Rinnegone Sasuke
We can’t pretend Naruto was “holding back” in speed or strength so much when he was relentlessly spamming Massive Rasengans against Delta after Delta threatened to kill Himawari. If a simple punch could’ve knocked her out, he would’ve used it. Also, K1 Jigen was already shown to be ≥ Naruto or Sasuke individually.
Amado outright states Code is stronger than Delta—
And based on his analogy even though full-power Naruto defeated Delta, Amado logically concludes that without Kurama, Naruto might die to Code. That wasn’t manipulation, it was logical deduction based on facts, outside of Amado’s intention the evidence is still clear, Code > Delta who fought on par with SPSM Naruto who is now Weaker due to losing Kurama would Lose to Code.
Kurama was a massive buff to Naruto. That’s not even debatable. Outside of SPSM + Kurama mode, even his more stronger forms like Kurama Avater mode still requires Kurama.
Other confirmations:
- Kawaki states Code > Delta:
- Code himself says he could take Nerfed Naruto and Sasuke together but plays it safe and Ada who has the seringan never contested this:
- Amado says only he can stop Kawaki in Konoha with the emergency shut down. Was he being manipulative to save his skin? Yes. But was the statement itself false? No. Amado was only stating the obvious and Ada/Daemon knew exactly how strong Kawaki was in fact she watched the entire fight when he gained his power and she also saw Naruto and Sasuke fight against Isshiki, and still wasn’t worried because of Daemon:
And it doesn’t stop there.
- Shikamaru says the village can’t stop Kawaki: https://imgur.com/a/NO0lVyW
- He doesn’t contest Amado’s claims, because he himself after witnessed Kawaki’s full power firsthand:
imgur.com
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Even if we stick strictly to the manga, claiming Rinnegone Sasuke is on par with Borushiki is still clearly flawed. The scaling is straightforward:
Kawashiki ~ Full-power Borushiki > Code > Delta ≈ SPSM Naruto ≈ Healthy Rinnegan Sasuke > Fatigued Rinnegone Sasuke
We can’t pretend Naruto was “holding back” in speed or strength so much when he was relentlessly spamming Massive Rasengans against Delta after Delta threatened to kill Himawari. If a simple punch could’ve knocked her out, he would’ve used it. Also, K1 Jigen was already shown to be ≥ Naruto or Sasuke individually.
Amado outright states Code is stronger than Delta—
And based on his analogy even though full-power Naruto defeated Delta, Amado logically concludes that without Kurama, Naruto might die to Code. That wasn’t manipulation, it was logical deduction based on facts, outside of Amado’s intention the evidence is still clear, Code > Delta who fought on par with SPSM Naruto who is now Weaker due to losing Kurama would Lose to Code.
Kurama was a massive buff to Naruto. That’s not even debatable. Outside of SPSM + Kurama mode, even his more stronger forms like Kurama Avater mode still requires Kurama.
Other confirmations:
- Kawaki states Code > Delta:
- Code himself says he could take Nerfed Naruto and Sasuke together but plays it safe and Ada who has the seringan never contested this:
- Amado says only he can stop Kawaki in Konoha with the emergency shut down. Was he being manipulative to save his skin? Yes. But was the statement itself false? No. Amado was only stating the obvious and Ada/Daemon knew exactly how strong Kawaki was in fact she watched the entire fight when he gained his power and she also saw Naruto and Sasuke fight against Isshiki, and still wasn’t worried because of Daemon:
And it doesn’t stop there.
The evidence stacks. It is very clear that Borushiki > Fatigued rinnegone Sasuke.
- Shikamaru says the village can’t stop Kawaki: https://imgur.com/a/NO0lVyW
- He doesn’t contest Amado’s claims, because he himself after witnessed Kawaki’s full power firsthand:
imgur.com
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I'll respond tomorrow.
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I agree, again though, it doesn't really conflict with what I'm saying. I think Sasuke just puts her down with Genjutsu.
No, I'm agreeing with you. I know you were referring to MS SaradaThat's why I said MS Sarada and not 3T Sarada
Koji knew he only had a chance if Jigen was weakened because V2 100% Jigen would fondle him, I don't have an issue with Jigen beating Koji's ass due to rods and shrinking with ~ physicals, my point is that he has feats on him in V2 while he's in base, do you not think his SM can generally bridge that gap between 10 and 100%? Not to mention, what's your thoughts on Koji being physically stronger now that his Shinjutsu actually bloomed.
Testarossa002
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"scales" is doing a lot of heavylifting considering he only blocked one attack from the V2 jinchuriki but sure
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I don't remember the fight 100% but I'm sure he even fought their full tailed beast form and not just version 2
Testarossa002
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That's from KCM 2 onwards
Which doesn't really explain why itachi and A4 are scaling to KCM 2
Well, it'd be take care of soon enough
Just wanted to understand the current rationale
Which doesn't really explain why itachi and A4 are scaling to KCM 2
Well, it'd be take care of soon enough
Just wanted to understand the current rationale
MinatoSparkle
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I don't really see why that'd affect her, and it's not really his go to move anyways
So not sure I'm getting the rationaleNo, I'm agreeing with you. I know you were referring to MS Sarada
1. Jigen had been using up chakra throughout the fight, he should've been at significantly less than 10% by the time he went K2
2. Koji just dodged one attack over a long distance, consistently he scales to 10% Base Jigen
Unquantifiable
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Why wouldn't it effect her? He has 6 layers of Genjutsu Potency while she currently like has around 2. And it's not his go to move because he only really fought Ōtsutsuki who are likely resistance to Genjutsu, hence why Ōtsutsuki Physiology page has them possibly resisting Sasuke's mind hax.
I'm saying I agree with you that Sarada would kill Hidari
True
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This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the manga if you believe this. I'll address your below points now.
Naruto had no killing intent against Delta. Serious or not, it's irrelevant to the point that Killing Intent Naruto and Sasuke are relative to Kv1 Jigen, and no, he is not >= them (Scans 1, 2, etc). And please don't start with the nonsensical take that because Naruto commented on his strength here it means he's "stronger" to a degree. That's not how that works. Naruto is an extremely bad match-up against Jigen due to his abilities but in regards to Strength and Speed, they are relative and there is nothing you can point to, to say otherwise. The feats speak for themselves. This likewise doesn't change the above, and yes, Jigen had killing Intent.
Doesn't matter, Code isn't Stronger than Kv1 Jigen, whom Naruto and Sasuke are Relative to in Stats.
Except he can't logically "conclude anything" as he doesn't know how strong Naruto is without Kurama, by his own words in the scan. You can't conclude anything on unknowns, and his opinion on Code killing Naruto isn't trustworthy as he had a vested interest in making Kawaki want Karma to protect Naruto. (Scans: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). Now, in the face of this context, one can remain willfully ignorant or recognize that you cannot take Amadou's word at face value for the purposes of scaling as his entire goal hinged on Kawaki wanting karma, and to that end, knowing how Kawaki feels about Naruto, makes anything he tells Kawaki about Naruto unusable for scaling purposes.
The only thing you can take to the bank is that Code > Delta.
It was manipulation, the evidence is clear and it's irrelevant that Code > Delta when Kv1 Jigen > Code and killing Intent Naruto and Sasuke are relative to Jigen. This is based on feats, and I'll tell you again, you cannot logically conclude on something that is an unknown. I cannot stress how fallacious it is to assert that A, you don't know how much power Character X has and then B, conclude that Character Y will kill Character X because of it. You cannot logically get from point A to B in this scenario because your point of reference is an unknown.
And Naruto's feats against Jigen informs the reader of the extent to which he held back against Delta.
FACTS:
- Naruto is relative in stats to Kv1 Jigen.
- Naruto held back against Delta.
- Amado states a fight with Code wouldn't go the same as with Delta.
- Amado doesn't know how much weaker Naruto is w/o Kurama.
False. Kurama's Chakra Strength (Around Founders Level) is insignificant to the strength Naruto has as a byproduct of having half of Hagoromo's SPC, and the subsequent training they did to get even more power. Yes, Naruto loses his Intent Sensing, a Reliable Chakra Cloak, Chakra Arms, TBB and possibly his healing factor) but the "strength" Kurama Provided Naruto is a drop in the Ocean compared to the strength of his SPC. Let's not forget, "Cloaked SPSM Naruto" is them "Linking" (Part 2) their chakra together. This is something 100% Kurama by itself wouldn't be able to enable Naruto to do or survive. Yes, I understand the statement, but it's extremely inconsistent with literally everything that came before. Juubito (With Minor Effort) > War Arc BSM Naruto > 100% Kurama.
It doesn't matter. You're missing the point. You're under a misconception that Kurama Mode is solely the strength of Kurama. It is a Linking of Naruto and Kurama's Chakra and Naruto's Chakra is far stronger than Kurama's after receiving SPC. Example: Post-War Naruto is 8, Kurama is 2, Naruto Linking with Kurama is 10. Pre Hagoromo intervening, it would be the inverse.
Irrelevant. Code is already accepted as > Delta.
Code also believed Boro > Delta. Outside of Regen & Viruses, Boro would get Blitzed and One Shotted. Code is cocky & bragging and he isn't a trustworthy source. Case in point. Case in point x2. If you're gonna keep pushing this narrative, you have to prove Limited Code > Kv1 Jigen. Being > Delta is irrelevant when Naruto was holding back.
- Amado says only he can stop Kawaki in Konoha with the emergency shut down. Was he being manipulative to save his skin? Yes. But was the statement itself false? No. Amado was only stating the obvious and Ada/Daemon knew exactly how strong Kawaki was in fact she watched the entire fight when he gained his power and she also saw Naruto and Sasuke fight against Isshiki, and still wasn’t worried because of Daemon:
And it doesn’t stop there.
The evidence stacks. It is very clear that Borushiki > Fatigued rinnegone Sasuke.
- Shikamaru says the village can’t stop Kawaki: https://imgur.com/a/NO0lVyW
- He doesn’t contest Amado’s claims, because he himself after witnessed Kawaki’s full power firsthand:
imgur.com
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Nothing says Kawaki is "stronger" than Naruto or Sasuke stat wise. You're attempting to extrapolate that Narrative without applying Context.
- Again, Amado doesn't know how strong Naruto or Sasuke are without Rinnegan or Kurama. His own words.
- Naruto himself is unwilling to Kill Kawaki.
- Even if Naruto did, Kv2 Kawaki is in the same ballpark as Naruto & Sasuke and as shown, Naruto himself is a bad Match-Up against Isshiki's Abilities.
- As with Naruto, Sasuke and Kv2 Kawaki are in the same ballpark. Isshiki's abilities are hard for Sasuke to counter as well, but likewise, given the Sharingan, it wouldn't be easy for Kawaki either.
- Shikamaru literally states the reasoning is because he can absorb Jutsu and shrink himself. That's not evidence.
Based on FEATS, Borushiki and Rinnegone Sasuke are relative (And I explained why in a previous post).
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I mean did you? You said rinnegone sauce was relative to Borushiki when they were both fatigued but they were fatigued by an unquantifiable amount.
Even all of the taijutsu he did against Sasuke and Kawaki wasn't enough to even bring him down by the amount of chakra that's in 1 fire style from base Kawaki. Meaning while Sasuke had enough chakra to throw around fire balls, MS jutsu, massive chidori, and taijutsu, Borushiki as keeping up with all of that using less than 1 base Kawaki fireball worth of chakra.
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Too many words but lets break it down one by one. Why would Naruto hold back so much in speed and Ap against Delta someone who just tried to kill Himawari and destroyed Kawaki’s arm? Why would He fight K1 Jigen with full killing intent when he didn't even know his complete intentions outside of that fact that he implanted Karma in Kawaki, but some reasons pull punches against a Kara member who’s clearly willing to kill children to achieve her goal?
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Naa I think kcm2 was just straight up faster than everyone there right from it's first appearance. More notably his shushing, I mean Naruto could intercept an attack from white mask obito and madara at the same time from quite a distance.
I do get your point though, just clearing that Itachi isn't scaling to kcm2, there is just not a separate tier for them.
Maybe you should ask ghost coz it seems based Naruto just scales to fallen darkness calc and then kcm1 scales to guy
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I will say, Code is incredibly unreliable. Pretty much every claim he's made in the story has been demonstrably false and he genuinely doesn't know what he's talking about and doing every time he's on screen.
Amado is unreliable as well due to his very obvious and clear manipulation and gaslighting of Naruto/Sasuke and Kawaki. He wanted to manipulate Kawaki into NEEDING Karma, so he repeatedly acted like Naruto and Sasuke were handicapped when they lost their amps (they were, but not by a massive amount). We've seen countless times Amado has withheld information or told half truths which we found out later that he did only to manipulate Konoha/Kawaki to do as he wanted.
Amado is unreliable as well due to his very obvious and clear manipulation and gaslighting of Naruto/Sasuke and Kawaki. He wanted to manipulate Kawaki into NEEDING Karma, so he repeatedly acted like Naruto and Sasuke were handicapped when they lost their amps (they were, but not by a massive amount). We've seen countless times Amado has withheld information or told half truths which we found out later that he did only to manipulate Konoha/Kawaki to do as he wanted.
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MinatoSparkle
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Kurama lit said Naruto wouldn't have superhuman strength anymore so I think it should've been a pretty big nerf
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Okay let's use this analogy. Does Kinshiki scale to 3 tomoe/ Rinnegan Sasuke?
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Toshiro vs Boruto
Battle of the prodigies Tōshirō Hitsugaya (Matured Bankai) VS Boruto Uzumaki (Two Blue vortex) Equal stats Start 20m Apart Fight takes place on a random rocky battle field In character SBA for the rest
MinatoSparkle
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Naruto's base might've gotten weaker too ngl
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There is no way you read that and then went to, "Only 1 Kawaki Fire Style worth of Chakra"...
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This was Sasuke’s first fight against Kinshiki, and it’s clear he had his Choku Tomoe Rinnegan active, meaning he wasn’t low on chakra at the time.
First fight reference 1 | First fight reference 2
In their second fight, Sasuke and Kinshiki were shown to be relative, with Kinshiki occasionally overpowering Sasuke.
Even though Sasuke had transported multiple people beforehand, his Choku Tomoe Rinnegan was still active, and he later had enough chakra to use Susanoo against Fused momo and transport everyone back to Earth after.
Second fight reference
There’s nothing in the fight that suggests 3-Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke was outright superior to Kinshiki. And Sasuke doesn’t automatically become so weak he can’t fight god-tiers after using some portals. He only truly gets exhausted when he overuses chakra either through portal travel or other means, which is indicated when his Choku Tomoe pattern disappears.
Even against Jigen, Sasuke used his portal twice before he fought V1 Jigen, he then used the Susanoo, and still had enough chakra to open a portal back to Earth.
Plus, Momoshiki and Kinshiki themselves constantly used portals too, which also consumes massive chakra, yet we assume that they remained fully combat capable.
At what point do we draw the line between normal chakra expenditure and an actual nerf?
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what? are you fighting ghosts? im not saying Sasuke is far superior to Kinshiki
they're incredibly relative yes, I'm just saying Sasuke is probably marginally superior to Kinshiki, it's a minor superiority, not whatever you think I'm claiming.
they're incredibly relative yes, I'm just saying Sasuke is probably marginally superior to Kinshiki, it's a minor superiority, not whatever you think I'm claiming.
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Is Sasuke superior to Kinshiki at full power with his EMS Or Susanoo active? Yes. But with just his 3-Tomoe Rinnegan, he has no real feats that place him above Kinshiki when they fought, not even marginally, across multiple encounters.
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Sure
Here's how I see it:
Naruto ~< Fused Momoshiki ~ SPSM Naruto ~ Sasuke ~ Kinshiki
More refined than my last one lol
Also fun fact: Sasuke can actually use Susano'o without the Sharingan active
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There’s a reason I brought Kinshiki into this.
Since you already agree that Kinshiki ~ 3-Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke, do you also agree that, just like 3-Tomoe Sasuke was able to occasionally trade blows, counter, and keep up in speed with V1 Jigen, Kinshiki should also be able to do the same against Jigen?
To be clear: I’m not saying 3-Tomoe Sasuke or Kinshiki would win in a full fight against Jigen, only that they would be low-end relative, able to keep up to a certain degree.
Since you already agree that Kinshiki ~ 3-Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke, do you also agree that, just like 3-Tomoe Sasuke was able to occasionally trade blows, counter, and keep up in speed with V1 Jigen, Kinshiki should also be able to do the same against Jigen?
To be clear: I’m not saying 3-Tomoe Sasuke or Kinshiki would win in a full fight against Jigen, only that they would be low-end relative, able to keep up to a certain degree.
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Ultimately this is fine since we know his Choku Tomoe is not gone yet so he is different not out of Chakra.
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Yeah. Obviously Kinshiki would do worse though.
I think most God Tiers in Boruto are relative with incremental increases until we get to Isshiki and BM Naruto. Jura and Daemon most likely as well
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I didn't, the manga did. The manga showed us absorbing even that much chakra was enough to awaken Boruto despite Momoshiki doing all that fighting since then.
So actually Momoshiki was probably doing all that at less than 1/2 of that one fire styles worth of chakra
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Okay next question do you think the Kage’s are at least low end relative to Kinshinki?
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No, you need to read my post again and then read the manga. You are blatantly ignoring the context of the manga. I mean like... It's egregious, brother
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Interesting, I’m actually fine with that to some extent, though I still think they’re low-end relative, since Kinshiki, even with his weapon, could barely inflict serious damage on Chojuro.
That aside, when Momoshiki absorbed Kinshiki, he was able to blitz and knock out the Four Kage with a single move each. If Kinshiki were truly relative to Fused Momoshiki, like you suggested, does it really make sense that they’d have to resort to fusion just to pull off a feat that Kinshiki alone should have been capable of if he was anywhere near Fused Momo’s level?
MinatoSparkle
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Naruto and Kurama's chakras have been mixed for so long, so even in base Kurama's chakra may have been passively amping him. There's also arguably Baryon Mode shaving part of Naruto's chakra but meh.
what's the basis
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Technically yes but the results wouldn't even even remotely close to being relevant. You might be lucky if that even reached lower tier 6
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The size of it probably can without too much difficulty, but the issue is that it doesn't actually destroy a lot that would be useful for an AP calc.
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Good question. I haven't put much thought in speed at all so Ill try my best to make sense of how I see it.
It might sound like cope but, I do think Fused Momoshiki is faster, but not to the point where he's blitzing the Kage.
When we see Fused Momoshiki attack Darui, we see that their smoke clouds around the whole battlefield, limiting their vision. In the first panel where we see the God Tree and the shockwave, we don't see Momoshiki there. He's already left/disappeared and he did so while the Kage and everyone else was shielding themselves from the shockwave and clouds of dirt and smoke.
When Darui looks up there's a spiky bubble next to his face which is an expression of shock or surprise, which I interpreted it as he sees Momoshiki but he's unable to meaningfully react or do anything in time as by the time he opened his eyes, Momoshiki is right there.
As for Gaara, he's able to see Momoshiki fly out of clouds of smoke because he's not covering his eyes like Darui was. Momoshiki is actually in his line of sight so Gaara is able to block Momoshiki's attack.
Kurotsuchi and Choujuro are still surrounded by smoke and don't even notice Gaara was fighting and got defeated until he hits the ground.
As soon as they scream out Kazekage, Momoshiki walks through the smoke behind them and sends Choujuro flying, which alerts Kurotsuchi and she tries to counter but he blocks it and defeats her.
So as a TL;DR:
1. Momoshiki used the chaos around them as an advantage (not that he necessarily needed it seeing how easily he defeated Gaara and Kurotsuchi without that element of surprise, but it wasn't due to a blitzing speed gap that he did)
2. Kurotsuchi and more importantly Gaara are able to see Momoshiki's movements once that element of surprise is gone
But also just to note. Even if you disagree with me, the current scaling low-key supports this too. In speed: The Kage scale to Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Kinshiki scales to Sasuke who scales to SPSM Naruto who scales to Fused Momoshiki. Though for some reason Momoshiki scales faster than Kinshiki, which has no justification.
So Fused Momoshiki isn't dastardly faster than the Kage. It all stems from Sasuke
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I disagree with this. The chakra that was passively fusing with Naruto's Chakra isn't connected to Kurama at that point as it was a composite that wasn't actually connected to Kurama's existence inside Naruto any longer (Meaning regardless if Kurama is within him, it doesn't suddenly defuse their chakra (Like taking Nestle Chocolate Mix out of the Chocolate Milk after it's already been mixed)).
And just like Fragments of Kurama's Chakra aren't impacted by his death, Naruto's composited Chakra, which is its own thing separate from Kurama's own Chakra, shouldn't be affected either.
