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2. Kurotsuchi and more importantly Gaara are able to see Momoshiki's movements once that element of surprise is gone


But also just to note. Even if you disagree with me, the current scaling low-key supports this too. In speed: The Kage scale to Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Kinshiki scales to Sasuke who scales to SPSM Naruto who scales to Fused Momoshiki. Though for some reason Momoshiki scales faster than Kinshiki, which has no justification.

So Fused Momoshiki isn't dastardly faster than the Kage. It all stems from Sasuke

We will be here for a while. Are you good to VC on Discord?

Edit.
Just to clarify a few things:
  • Kurotsuchi being able to punch a Fused Momoshiki that was standing there and ultimately just caught her punch doesn’t really scale her perception speed in any meaningful way.
  • As for Gaara, his feat was based on reaction and perception speed using his sand, which is faster than his own physical movement speed. He saw Momoshiki coming from a far and he reacted in time.

Whether Fused Momoshiki is twice as fast or ten times faster than the Kage doesn’t really matter the core point I’ve been trying to drive home is this:
Kinshiki + Momoshiki cannot be relative to Kinshiki alone.
Fused Momoshiki is clearly portrayed - and backed by multiple feats and statements - as being far stronger than either Kinshiki or base Momoshiki individually.
If Kinshiki was already relative to Sasuke by himself, then after fusing with Momoshiki, it makes no logical sense for Fused Momoshiki to still be portrayed as merely relative to the same Sasuke.
This was ultimately proven even in the manga when Fused Momoshiki tanked a direct sword strike from Sasuke to the neck without taking any damage.
 
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Too many words but lets break it down one by one.
Sure.
Why would Naruto hold back so much in speed and Ap against Delta someone who just tried to kill Himawari and destroyed Kawaki’s arm?
Irrelevant. Feats are Feats. Naruto ~ Kv1 Jigen > Code > Delta and Naruto held back against Delta. I don't have to justify it beyond pointing out what happened; you have to debunk that it happened or that it is not as it appears. Thus, you either have to argue Jigen held back when he had killing intent or that Code > Kv1 Jigen. It doesn't matter otherwise that Code > Delta. Naruto is also > Delta while holding back.
Why would He fight K1 Jigen with full killing intent when he didn't even know his complete intentions outside of that fact that he implanted Karma in Kawaki
1.) This is what Jigen said to Naruto's face.
2.) Sasuke's statements about fighting him.
2.) Naruto knows his level of strength.
3.) Naruto is fighting at the same level of intensity as Sasuke, whom is clearly attacking to kill as Sasuke knows who Jigen is. Their teamwork doesn't work unless both are matching each other.
4.) What Naruto, after fighting Jigen's underling says.

So either Naruto is initially holding back against Kv1 Jigen as well until Sasuke informs him, or he is fighting at the highest he can w/o Kurama Avatar. Pick your poison.
but some reasons pull punches against a Kara member who’s clearly willing to kill children to achieve her goal?
Naruto's take on it.
 
There is really no concrete link between v1 jigen and code. It's like the relationship between ishikki and like Daemon or Jura. Both are stronger than delta but jigen has stronger statements like kurama saying "delta is nothing compared to this guy".

So I guess V1 jigen >= code
 
It's not really that simple. We have no idea if Kawaki is only talking about v1 Jigen for one, but there's also the factor of skill and abilities.

Naruto was mostly controlling the fight against Delta because he was more skilled. He clearly couldn't outspeed her lasers even when saving Himawari but he could outskill her to where he could control the entire flow of fight as to keep her the kids safe.

Jigen not only has a far better moveset but also has Isshikis millenia of combat experience. So even v1 Jigen would be a superior fighter to Delta without the need to be greatly superior to her physical stats.
 
It's not really that simple. We have no idea if Kawaki is only talking about v1 Jigen for one, but there's also the factor of skill and abilities.
It can be inferred that he is as it makes no sense for Kawaki to mistake Naruto for possibly being stronger than Jigen if he was aware of Kv2 Jigen. He wasn't even aware of True Essence until Code said it.

And if we're now factoring in skill & abilities into statements of power, Code wouldn't scale over Delta based in stats necessarily. It could argued, "Well if Jigen isn't 'way more powerful' than Delta in stats, but rather because skill and abilities (SukunaHikona, etc), then Code likely isn't stronger than Delta in stats either, but likely due to skill and abilities (Belts)" 🤷

And from my perspective, a lot of people here have been ignoring the skill and abilities portion of statements of power in the verse for the purposes of scaling.
Naruto was mostly controlling the fight against Delta because he was more skilled.
True, this was the case.
He clearly couldn't outspeed her lasers even when saving Himawari but he could outskill her to where he could control the entire flow of fight as to keep her the kids safe.
Bit misleading take tbh. He actually could easily react to the laser and defend against it from a Combat Standpoint, and he did outpace the laser despite being further from Hima and jumping after it was already fired and still made it to her before the laser would've got her.

And this doesn't change the fact Naruto still held back against her to keep her alive for interrogation.
Jigen not only has a far better moveset but also has Isshikis millenia of combat experience.
Irrelevant to Kawaki's statement as he didn't even know about TE. And sure, I'll give you moveset, but we gotta keep that same energy for Code as well.
So even v1 Jigen would be a superior fighter to Delta without the need to be greatly superior to her physical stats.
So the same can be said for Code, yes? Due to Belts, not actual "strength".
 
It can be inferred that he is as it makes no sense for Kawaki to mistake Naruto for possibly being stronger than Jigen if he was aware of Kv2 Jigen. He wasn't even aware of True Essence until Code said it.
I see no reason to assume that.
And if we're now factoring in skill & abilities into statements of power, Code wouldn't scale over Delta based in stats necessarily. It could argued, "Well if Jigen isn't 'way more powerful' than Delta in stats, but rather because skill and abilities (SukunaHikona, etc), then Code likely isn't stronger than Delta in stats either, but likely due to skill and abilities (Belts)" 🤷

And from my perspective, a lot of people here have been ignoring the skill and abilities portion of statements of power in the verse for the purposes of scaling.
No not really. Because Jigens abilities allow him to make up for a lack of power far more than Codes marks.
Code simply having teleportation can't be compared to the offensive capabilities of Jigens rods, shrinking, karma absorption, etc.
Bit misleading take tbh. He actually could easily react to the laser and defend against it from a Combat Standpoint, and he did outpace the laser despite being further from Hima and jumping after it was already fired and still made it to her before the laser would've got her.
Point is that they were clearly relative to him.
And this doesn't change the fact Naruto still held back against her to keep her alive for interrogation.
Yeah he held back by not nuking her with a Kurama avatar and 2000 clones but that doesn't mean he physically held back his power and speed.
Irrelevant to Kawaki's statement as he didn't even know about TE. And sure, I'll give you moveset, but we gotta keep that same energy for Code as well.
He doesn't need to know about TE when Jigen is literally Isshiki himself in a human body.
So the same can be said for Code, yes? Due to Belts, not actual "strength".
That would be true if the belts didn't suck ass compared to Jigens hax
 
I see no reason to assume that.
Please do explain why that is your view on it, because it is literally the case and I can't personally see where you could find a valid counter point to that without invoking something that is baseless.

But I'm open to changing my mind
No not really.
Yes, really.
Because Jigens abilities allow him to make up for a lack of power far more than Codes marks.
That is an irrelevant point. As I accurately guessed what would happen, You're seeking to invalidate a statement of power by invoking "Skills & Abilities", when the manga doesn't state or imply that is the case, then turning around and discounting "Skills & Abilities" to affirm a statement of power simply on the basis you think one person's abilities are better than the others. No offense, but this is full of shit and disingenuous.
Code simply having teleportation can't be compared to the offensive capabilities of Jigens rods, shrinking, karma absorption, etc.
None of which impacts Jigen stats, same as Code. It's all utility based since you want to compare abilities.
  1. Karma Absorption ~ Delta had Absorption.
  2. Sukunahikona Evasive Utility ~ Code's Claw Marks Same Evasive Utility.
  3. Sukunahikona Offensive Usages ~ Code's Claw Marks have Offensive Usages.
  4. Jigen's Chakra Rods ~ Code has Ninja-Tool transformation enhancements.
The point being made here, which you fail to realize, is that Code has abilities (Claw Marks) that make him more dangerous and hard to kill, than Delta. The Claw Marks + Ninja Tool enhancements means he can enhance the lethality of his hits, increase his evasiveness and attack from almost any location or angle his Claw Marks are place, and they can be placed almost anywhere.

So no, you don't get to deny Jigen's statements and keep Code's. You're either factoring them in for both or you're not factoring them for either.

This isn't Ohirume, where the ability has both Utility and Actual AP Offensive Capabilities.
Point is that they were clearly relative to him.
"Literally" they weren't when you look at the factors stated, and I even if they were. It doesn't change a Damn thing in regards to Kv1 Jigen and Naruto being relative and Delta being weaker as Naruto was holding back.
Yeah he held back by not nuking her with a Kurama avatar and 2000 clones but that doesn't mean he physically held back his power and speed.
Except that's not how that works. Naruto makes a general statement of holding back and doesn't imply or state it's only in reference to "Ninjutsu Usage and Kurama Avatar", etc.

When you say things like that, it's you inserting your baseless head canon. It's also a highly ignorant stance to take when you realize that Naruto engaged in Taijutsu with her, under the premise of taking her in for interrogation & not killing her, even before he knew how her absorption worked, meaning yes, he was pulling his punches.

Like it's crazy seeing a lot you fight this hard against the narrative. 💀
He doesn't need to know about TE when Jigen is literally Isshiki himself in a human body.
Irrelevant assertion. Kawaki was trained by Jigen in the usage of Karma. He knew of Jigen's Kv1 form and mistook Naruto as potentially stronger than him. THAT, coupled with the fact he didn't even know True Essence implies he didn't know about Kv2 Prior to his statement on Jigen's strength.

What's more, Kawaki didn't even know anything about Naruto's capabilities prior to him thinking Naruto might be stronger. His statement was made purely based on what he was sensing from Naruto vs Jigen (Not Delta Mind You).
That would be true if the belts didn't suck ass compared to Jigens hax
It doesn't matter how you feel about the Claw Marks. The fact is they make Code a far tougher opponent than Delta.

I'll give you Kv1 Jigen, WK Code, & Delta being in the same ballpark in stats with abilities being the deciding factor, but you're not about to get that picky-choosy shit off with me without substantial evidence.

Also, yes, Naruto commenting on his strength does imply Jigen > Delta (To what extent is up for debate, obviously).
 
Code's ninja tool enhancements are literally just part of his AP, idt any of us have a problem with that being a factor in his being >Delta
 
Code's ninja tool enhancements are literally just part of his AP, idt any of us have a problem with that being a factor in his being >Delta
No, the point of comparison is that Jigen has Chakra Rods and no Body Transformations for Offense while Code has the Transformation Mods and No Rods.
 
what's the discussion? who's stronger between code delta and V1 Jigen?
 
what's the discussion? who's stronger between code delta and V1 Jigen?
Essentially, yes. Also based on Kawaki's statement about Jigen being "Way more powerful" than Delta, which I pointed out in part quantifies the level Naruto held back against Delta.

David is asserting "Skills and Abilities" for Jigen constitute that Statement from Kawaki but not for Code being stated stronger than Delta, because he believes Jigen's abilities > Code's.
 
You don't even need to use Kawaki's statement tbh. We already know K1 Jigen is a good amount superior to Delta:

Naruto briefly fought Delta in base and easily dodged her attacks and blocked her attacks (which supports the low end relativity I talked about against Fused Momoshiki 🥱 and not a 2x gap) before going into SPSM and stayed on top throughout the whole fight.

Compared to his fight with Base Jigen where he easily kicks Base Naruto and pins him to the ground. When he goes into K1, Naruto notes he absorbs chakra and his incredible strength, which we can use to compare to Delta, who can also absorb chakra, but he never comments on her strength like he does with Jigen. We also know Naruto was objectively "holding back" to some extent against Delta but not against Jigen.


Base Naruto ~< Delta ~< SPSM Naruto

Base Naruto < Jigen
SPSM Naruto ~ K1 Jigen
 
Delta wasn't going all out against Base Naruto, she charged to full power after seeing through Naruto's bluff and Naruto said he'd go all out now "too" in response to this
0031-030.png
 
which supports the low end relativity I talked about against Fused Momoshiki 🥱 and not a 2x gap
Btw, what do you think of this?
知体内に封印された九喇嘛から、莫大なチャクラを借り受け、ナルトは圧倒的な力を発揮。さらに"仙人モード"を同時発動することで、感知能力や発動忍術の威力は、大幅に上昇する・・・!!
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/942609473946673152/1338299189888811169/download_28.png?ex=680e1cff&is=680ccb7f&hm=e99a7353cc460a07a17310a93dfa3b93ed10f0c7bb3defbef973b252e62c9c07&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=668&height=866
 
Btw, what do you think of this?
知体内に封印された九喇嘛から、莫大なチャクラを借り受け、ナルトは圧倒的な力を発揮。さらに"仙人モード"を同時発動することで、感知能力や発動忍術の威力は、大幅に上昇する・・・!!
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/942609473946673152/1338299189888811169/download_28.png?ex=680e1cff&is=680ccb7f&hm=e99a7353cc460a07a17310a93dfa3b93ed10f0c7bb3defbef973b252e62c9c07&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=668&height=866
I have no issues with his ninjutsu being super strong, I mean the manga supports it

Base Naruto's Super Massive Rasengan one-shots Fused Momoshiki
SPSM Naruto's Super Massive Rasengan one-shots Delta

and these are all characters relative to Naruto physically
Delta wasn't going all out against Base Naruto, she charged to full power after seeing through Naruto's bluff and Naruto said he'd go all out now "too" in response to this
0031-030.png
that doesn't prove she wasn't trying against Naruto though? Just because there's an aura around her doesn't mean she wasn't trying prior, she's just utilizing more power than she was before. She has no reason to hold back against the likes of Naruto
 
Btw, what do you think of this?
知体内に封印された九喇嘛から、莫大なチャクラを借り受け、ナルトは圧倒的な力を発揮。さらに"仙人モード"を同時発動することで、感知能力や発動忍術の威力は、大幅に上昇する・・・!!
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/942609473946673152/1338299189888811169/download_28.png?ex=680e1cff&is=680ccb7f&hm=e99a7353cc460a07a17310a93dfa3b93ed10f0c7bb3defbef973b252e62c9c07&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=668&height=866
I really want to ask you... Do you support the idea that Naruto and Sasuke retained the SPC Hagoromo gave them post war? Or did they lose it.
 
I have no issues with his ninjutsu being super strong, I mean the manga supports it

Base Naruto's Super Massive Rasengan one-shots Fused Momoshiki
SPSM Naruto's Super Massive Rasengan one-shots Delta

and these are all characters relative to Naruto physically
It also generally says KCM allows him to demonstrate overwhelming might
that doesn't prove she wasn't trying against Naruto though? Just because there's an aura around her doesn't mean she wasn't trying prior, she's just utilizing more power than she was before. She has no reason to hold back against the likes of Naruto
All I said is that she's not going all out prior. If she's not going all out, she's holding back to some degree
I really want to ask you... Do you support the idea that Naruto and Sasuke retained the SPC Hagoromo gave them post war? Or did they lose it.
Probably kept it
 
I see no reason to assume that.

No not really. Because Jigens abilities allow him to make up for a lack of power far more than Codes marks.
Code simply having teleportation can't be compared to the offensive capabilities of Jigens rods, shrinking, karma absorption, etc.

Point is that they were clearly relative to him.

Yeah he held back by not nuking her with a Kurama avatar and 2000 clones but that doesn't mean he physically held back his power and speed.

He doesn't need to know about TE when Jigen is literally Isshiki himself in a human body.

That would be true if the belts didn't suck ass compared to Jigens hax
What about kurama statement? "Delta is nothing compared to this guy" . Kurama exact words from just a few physical exchange.
 
Btw, what do you think of this?
知体内に封印された九喇嘛から、莫大なチャクラを借り受け、ナルトは圧倒的な力を発揮。さらに"仙人モード"を同時発動することで、感知能力や発動忍術の威力は、大幅に上昇する・・・!!
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/942609473946673152/1338299189888811169/download_28.png?ex=680e1cff&is=680ccb7f&hm=e99a7353cc460a07a17310a93dfa3b93ed10f0c7bb3defbef973b252e62c9c07&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=668&height=866
I got this interpretation, is it right/wrong? Drawing upon the vast chakra borrowed from Kurama—the Nine-Tails sealed within him—Naruto unleashed overwhelming power. And by simultaneously activating Sage Mode, his sensory perception and the destructive force of his ninjutsu skyrocketed...!!"
 
Probably kept it
So then if we know Kurama's power is Founders level by feats and Naruto is Oceans beyond that due to SPC, why are we acting like the "Strength" of Kurama's is so much more than Naruto's when it's the inverse. The statements contradict the showings and we have vastly more showings than this DB Statement and the Kurama Boruto statement.
 
I got this interpretation, is it right/wrong? Drawing upon the vast chakra borrowed from Kurama—the Nine-Tails sealed within him—Naruto unleashed overwhelming power. And by simultaneously activating Sage Mode, his sensory perception and the destructive force of his ninjutsu skyrocketed...!!"
Seems pretty similar to what translating machines say
So then if we know Kurama's power is Founders level by feats and Naruto is Oceans beyond that due to SPC, why are we acting like the "Strength" of Kurama's is so much more than Naruto's when it's the inverse. The statements contradict the showings and we have vastly more showings than this DB Statement and the Kurama Boruto statement.
I don't think KCM2 is an additive amp
 
You you're saying despite Kurama's Chakra being MASSIVELY weaker than Naruto's SPC, it still acts as am Amp on Naruto? How does that logically make sense?
I just said why. I don't think KCM2 Naruto = Naruto + Kurama. I also don't really think it's exactly a multiplier either, but it seems to be some kind of nonlinear amp given that 50% Kurama is fightable to some extent by SM Naruto who's vastly below KCM2 Naruto, KCM2 boosted Minato to BSM Naruto level, and it's still portrayed as notable for Six Paths Naruto
 
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