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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

Stryker861 said:
Wdym
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Depends on how “Drained” Haku was by time Naruto tapped into Kn0 because Kn0 would more than a 10x Amp for Stomping Haku, who we scale to/over Kakashi & Zabuza. Kn1 is comparable to CSM2 unless we’re saying Kn1 is a lesser amp over Kn0.

Edit: Tbf, Haku “wasn’t” fresh by time Naruto went into Kn0, so there is that.
 
TFO said:
Depends on how “Drained” Haku was by time Naruto tapped into Kn0 because Kn0 would more than a 10x Amp for Stomping Haku, who we scale to/over Kakashi & Zabuza. Kn1 is comparable to CSM2 unless we’re saying Kn1 is a lesser amp over Kn0.

Edit: Tbf, Haku “wasn’t” fresh by time Naruto went into Kn0, so there is that.
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Oh i see what your saying. So whos gonna make the crt with the 1/10th statment, i can unless you want to
 
TFO said:
“Personally”, I thinks its better to nail down what the scaling would be before making the CRT. I’ve seen MASSIVE Incredulity sink a Straight-Forward CRT before. 😬
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Ima reread land of waves through chunin exams and see if i can find any other useful statements and scaling. After that we can make a draft on the scaling
 
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If KN0 Naruto is stronger than Kakashi that means KN0 is a minimum 10x multiplier.

Naruto < Sasuke <(10x) Kakashi <= KN0 Naruto
 
Stryker861 said:
Oh i see what your saying. So whos gonna make the crt with the 1/10th statment, i can unless you want to
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I mean LoW Kakashi literally scales nowhere. Unless someone wants to calc the big water style he used against Zabuza, cause he's definitely not City level+ at that point.
Padaruyos said:
If KN0 Naruto is stronger than Kakashi that means KN0 is a minimum 10x multiplier.

Naruto < Sasuke <(10x) Kakashi <= KN0 Naruto
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KM0 has a varying amp depending on his emotions
 
GokuSparkle said:
I mean LoW Kakashi literally scales nowhere. Unless someone wants to calc the big water style he used against Zabuza, cause he's definitely not City level+ at that point.

KM0 has a varying amp depending on his emotions
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LoW Kakashi should Bare Minimum Scale over Genma & Raidou, unless you want to make the assertion Kakashi wouldn’t have even been above a Exhausted and low on chakra Tokubetsu Jonin.
 
TFO said:
LoW Kakashi should Bare Minimum Scale over Genma & Raidou, unless you want to make the assertion Kakashi wouldn’t have even been above a Exhausted and low on chakra Tokubetsu Jonin.
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Uhhhh that doesn't really work cause if Kakashi>Genma>CM2 Sound Four member, that'd also mean 1/10th Kakashi>Base Sound Four member, despite them slamming SRA Sasuke, who's leagues above LoW Sasuke. It makes sense for them to be stronger than a rusty Kakashi tbh, considering they're Hokage guards and Shizune thought it was impossible that they lost. But honestly, even though I normally balk at this, it might just be an outlier given the incredible disparity presented between Genin and Jonin level characters for most of the series. Hell, even Jirobo is more than 50x stronger than LoW Sasuke.
 
GokuSparkle said:
Uhhhh that doesn't really work cause if Kakashi>Genma>CM2 Sound Four member, that'd also mean 1/10th Kakashi>Base Sound Four member, despite them slamming SRA Sasuke, who's leagues above LoW Sasuke. It makes sense for them to be stronger than a rusty Kakashi tbh, considering they're Hokage guards and Shizune thought it was impossible that they lost. But honestly, even though I normally balk at this, it might just be an outlier given the incredible disparity presented between Genin and Jonin level characters for most of the series. Hell, even Jirobo is more than 50x stronger than LoW Sasuke.
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It does NOT make sense for the s4 to be stronger than a rusty kakashi when the s4 for themselves thought fighting regular jonin was a high diff fight and that was with a 4v2 advantage
 
GokuSparkle said:
Uhhhh that doesn't really work cause if Kakashi>Genma>CM2 Sound Four member, that'd also mean 1/10th Kakashi>Base Sound Four member, despite them slamming SRA Sasuke, who's leagues above LoW Sasuke. It makes sense for them to be stronger than a rusty Kakashi tbh, considering they're Hokage guards and Shizune thought it was impossible that they lost. But honestly, even though I normally balk at this, it might just be an outlier given the incredible disparity presented between Genin and Jonin level characters for most of the series. Hell, even Jirobo is more than 50x stronger than LoW Sasuke.
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It makes 0 sense for Tokubetsu Jonin (Not even Jonin Proper, despite their Rolls under Minato) when exhausted and Low on Chakra to be Superior to “Rusty” Kakashi, whom maintains a higher rank then them.

Even if that is what you want to argue, despite no “Rusty” Ninja ever being shown to be Massively Weaker then the last time they trained (Actually proven w/ Naruto & Sasuke & Tsunade), I can give you “Rusty” Kakashi not scaling to “Peak” Raidou and Genma, but to suggest when exhausted and Low on Chakra they’re still superior is a non-starter.

Their fight against S4 shouldn’t be considered an Outlier as that is their first fight in the series and not contradicted by any of their other showings. That just means CSM2 isn’t a linear Amp. Same arc, Kiba states CSM 2 Sakon (Stronger than Jirobo) has 10x more Chakra, not that he is 10x Stronger. And we already know, more Chakra doesn’t necessarily mean a 1:1 increase in strength.

Therefore, we should really be looking into the Consistency of CSM2 Scaling because we have contradicting statements and showings. Again, CSM2 Sakon whom is stronger than Jirobo, is stated to have 10x more Chakra but is not shown to be 10x stronger than Kiba, which contradicts Jirobo.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Honestly I think Zabuza’s demon aura should be an amp, since it’s tied to resolve, and we know a ninja is strengthened by their resolve.
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That presents a logic issue in the war arc. Even if we say it is, that amp should not logically be applied to Zabuza after his Feelings and Emotions are Suppressed by Kabuto because how can a ninja gain a mental amp when their mental state & conscious is suppressed?
 
TFO said:
It makes 0 sense for Tokubetsu Jonin (Not even Jonin Proper, despite their Rolls under Minato) when exhausted and Low on Chakra to be Superior to “Rusty” Kakashi, whom maintains a higher rank then them.

Even if that is what you want to argue, despite no “Rusty” Ninja ever being shown to be Massively Weaker then the last time they trained (Actually proven w/ Naruto & Sasuke & Tsunade), I can give you “Rusty” Kakashi not scaling to “Peak” Raidou and Genma, but to suggest when exhausted and Low on Chakra they’re still superior is a non-starter.
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I mean Rusty Tsunade was being reacted to by Kabuto. But sure that's fair.
TFO said:
Their fight against S4 shouldn’t be considered an Outlier as that is their first fight in the series and not contradicted by any of their other showings. That just means CSM2 isn’t a linear Amp. Same arc, Kiba states CSM 2 Sakon (Stronger than Jirobo) has 10x more Chakra, not that he is 10x Stronger. And we already know, more Chakra doesn’t necessarily mean a 1:1 increase in strength.
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No, it is 1:1 with strength. And anyways there's a direct statement for Jirobo.
TFO said:
Therefore, we should really be looking into the Consistency of CSM2 Scaling because we have contradicting statements and showings. Again, CSM2 Sakon whom is stronger than Jirobo, is stated to have 10x more Chakra but is not shown to be 10x stronger than Kiba, which contradicts Jirobo.
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How is he not shown to be 10x stronger? Kiba and Akamaru used a move they hadn't before to fight CM2 Sakon.
 
TFO said:
That presents a logic issue in the war arc. Even if we say it is, that amp should not logically be applied to Zabuza after his Feelings and Emotions are Suppressed by Kabuto because how can a ninja gain a mental amp when their mental state & conscious is suppressed?
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Mans soul is too powerful for complete suppression, or Kabuto can tap into the mind
 
Honestly the LoW arc kinda just has ass scaling (not on its own, but when taking the rest of the series into account, probably because Kishimoto was still working a lot of things out at that point). Naruto is able to draw blood from Zabuza, Sakura's able to dodge Zabuza throwing his blade, Naruto slightly reacts to Zabuza's shuriken throw, Haku's supposed to be stronger than Zabuza and Kakashi yet Sasuke's keeping up with him consistently in cqc (not just cause he's suppressed considering even Zabuza is shocked that Haku was matched and outdone) and with the Sharingan is able to somewhat keep up with his Ice Mirrors, etc.
 
0610-005.png
0610-005.png

There's just something about the Ten Tails' power being such a force of nature that I always liked
 
GokuSparkle said:
Honestly the LoW arc kinda just has ass scaling (not on its own, but when taking the rest of the series into account, probably because Kishimoto was still working a lot of things out at that point). Naruto is able to draw blood from Zabuza, Sakura's able to dodge Zabuza throwing his blade, Naruto slightly reacts to Zabuza's shuriken throw, Haku's supposed to be stronger than Zabuza and Kakashi yet Sasuke's keeping up with him consistently in cqc (not just cause he's suppressed considering even Zabuza is shocked that Haku was matched and outdone) and with the Sharingan is able to somewhat keep up with his Ice Mirrors, etc.
Click to expand...
+The light speed statement

And goes on to hype sonic attacks in the very next arc
 
GokuSparkle said:
Honestly the LoW arc kinda just has ass scaling (not on its own, but when taking the rest of the series into account, probably because Kishimoto was still working a lot of things out at that point). Naruto is able to draw blood from Zabuza, Sakura's able to dodge Zabuza throwing his blade, Naruto slightly reacts to Zabuza's shuriken throw, Haku's supposed to be stronger than Zabuza and Kakashi yet Sasuke's keeping up with him consistently in cqc (not just cause he's suppressed considering even Zabuza is shocked that Haku was matched and outdone) and with the Sharingan is able to somewhat keep up with his Ice Mirrors, etc.
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Yea your right tbh, the scaling is literally everywhere. When we take both the narrative and feats into account it looks like kakashi >sasuke >haku>zabuza >sasuke which doesn't make sense at all
 
Testarossa002 said:
+The light speed statement

And goes on to hype sonic attacks in the very next arc
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Eh I think that one's fine since it's not Haku's combat speed but specifically his speed of reflection that's LS. And it's even able to keep up with WA Kakashi's Raikiri.
Stryker861 said:
Yea your right tbh, the scaling is literally everywhere. When we take both the narrative and feats into account it looks like kakashi >sasuke >haku>zabuza >sasuke which doesn't make sense at all
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Ngl I think Kishimoto had the idea that characters weren't that far apart in physical stats and that skills and jutsu made the big difference.
 
GokuSparkle said:
I mean Rusty Tsunade was being reacted to by Kabuto. But sure that's fair.

No, it is 1:1 with strength. And anyways there's a direct statement for Jirobo.

How is he not shown to be 10x stronger? Kiba and Akamaru used a move they hadn't before to fight CM2 Sakon.
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No, its not 1:1. Jirobo has 1 Statement and the remainder of his fight was him toying with Choji. That by itself is not sufficient evidence to prove the 10x Strength Amp.

Kidoumaru has 0 Statements or Feats proving a 10x Amp to Support the Jirobo Statement. His fight with Neji was a Long Range Battle anyways & Gentle Fist Bypasses Durability, forcing even CSM2 Kidoumaru to keep his distance. You have no support from this fight.

Sakon / Ukon couldn’t even easily take down Base Kiba physically (1, 2, 3 (And yes, they were Bloodlusted)). Then upon entering CSM2, Kiba States their Chakra Increased by 10x, not strength, and none of S/U feats against Kiba imply or support Jirobo’s Statement. In fact, it contradicts Jirobo’s statement. And while yes, Kiba for a instance in that fight used a new form, it is not stated or implied to be a 10x (Or anywhere near) amp in the Manga/Databook. Not to mention S/U couldn’t take down Base Kiba easily either way as shown. You have no support from this fight.

Tayuya vs Shikamaru is no different. CSM2 Tayuya is no different. She has 0 feats supporting a 10x Strength Amp. She was literally in a strength struggle with Shikamaru’s Jutsu (Which is not Stated or Implied to be a 10x Amp over regular Shadow Possession, much like Kiba) and when she transforms, the focus is on her Chakra, not strength. Again, you have no support in this fight.

In all of S4 Fights, the only “consistency” we see with CSM2 is the Increase of Chakra by 10x, not strength. Its not a linear boost. Kidoumaru, Sakon/Ukon, Tayuya don’t have supporting Feats and Showings, and all statements are contradictory.
 
TFO said:
No, its not 1:1. Jirobo has 1 Statement and the remainder of his fight was him toying with Choji. That by itself is not sufficient evidence to prove the 10x Strength Amp.

Kidoumaru has 0 Statements or Feats proving a 10x Amp to Support the Jirobo Statement. His fight with Neji was a Long Range Battle anyways & Gentle Fist Bypasses Durability, forcing even CSM2 Kidoumaru to keep his distance. You have no support from this fight.

Sakon / Ukon couldn’t even easily take down Base Kiba physically (1, 2, 3 (And yes, they were Bloodlusted)). Then upon entering CSM2, Kiba States their Chakra Increased by 10x, not strength, and none of S/U feats against Kiba imply or support Jirobo’s Statement. In fact, it contradicts Jirobo’s statement. And while yes, Kiba for a instance in that fight used a new form, it is not stated or implied to be a 10x (Or anywhere near) amp in the Manga/Databook. Not to mention S/U couldn’t take down Base Kiba easily either way as shown. You have no support from this fight.

Tayuya vs Shikamaru is no different. CSM2 Tayuya is no different. She has 0 feats supporting a 10x Strength Amp. She was literally in a strength struggle with Shikamaru’s Jutsu (Which is not Stated or Implied to be a 10x Amp over regular Shadow Possession, much like Kiba) and when she transforms, the focus is on her Chakra, not strength. Again, you have no support in this fight.

In all of S4 Fights, the only “consistency” we see with CSM2 is the Increase of Chakra by 10x, not strength. Its not a linear boost. Kidoumaru, Sakon/Ukon, Tayuya don’t have supporting Feats and Showings, and all statements are contradictory.
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I'm way too tired to go into detail on why chakra is a huge part of strength (probably the most important), I'm just gonna link the chakra thread and say that I find it highly unlikely your argument would go through in a CRT if you're planning one. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:UchihaSlayer96/The_Mechanics_of_Chakra_Enhancement
 
GokuSparkle said:
I'm way too tired to go into detail on why chakra is a huge part of strength (probably the most important), I'm just gonna link the chakra thread and say that I find it highly unlikely your argument would go through in a CRT if you're planning one. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:UchihaSlayer96/The_Mechanics_of_Chakra_Enhancement
Click to expand...
You do realize that nothing in the Chakra Thread supports 10x Chakra Amp being a 1:1 to Strength amp, right? Note, I never said more chakra doesn’t equal stronger… just that 10x More Chakra doesn’t equal 10x More Strength. And the consistency of feats from S4 support that.
 
SlendVeny said:
So maybe the Rinnegan explains the difference?
Click to expand...
Either way both Edo Founders are only slightly weaker than their alive counterparts, so it wouldn't make up for the huge boost provided by Sage Mode.
TFO said:
You do realize that nothing in the Chakra Thread supports 10x Chakra Amp being a 1:1 to Strength amp, right? Note, I never said more chakra doesn’t equal stronger… just that 10x More Chakra doesn’t equal 10x More Strength. And the consistency of feats from S4 support that.
Click to expand...
I mean chakra is indeed accepted as proportional to strength. And a lot of the things you mention in relation to the S4 are arguments from ignorance
 
TFO said:
No, its not 1:1. Jirobo has 1 Statement and the remainder of his fight was him toying with Choji. That by itself is not sufficient evidence to prove the 10x Strength Amp.
Click to expand...
He says he has 10x, and he toyed around with Choji. 10x is consistent.
TFO said:
Kidoumaru has 0 Statements or Feats proving a 10x Amp to Support the Jirobo Statement. His fight with Neji was a Long Range Battle anyways & Gentle Fist Bypasses Durability, forcing even CSM2 Kidoumaru to keep his distance. You have no support from this fight.
Click to expand...
No one brought it up.
TFO said:
Sakon / Ukon couldn’t even easily take down Base Kiba physically (1, 2, 3 (And yes, they were Bloodlusted)). Then upon entering CSM2, Kiba States their Chakra Increased by 10x, not strength, and none of S/U feats against Kiba imply or support Jirobo’s Statement. In fact, it contradicts Jirobo’s statement. And while yes, Kiba for a instance in that fight used a new form, it is not stated or implied to be a 10x (Or anywhere near) amp in the Manga/Databook. Not to mention S/U couldn’t take down Base Kiba easily either way as shown. You have no support from this fight.
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"Kiba's new form wasn't said to be 10x" no one said that, and I promise every form doesn't have a listed multiplier. Do we need more proof that Baryon Mode is more than 10x base?
TFO said:
Tayuya vs Shikamaru is no different. CSM2 Tayuya is no different. She has 0 feats supporting a 10x Strength Amp. She was literally in a strength struggle with Shikamaru’s Jutsu (Which is not Stated or Implied to be a 10x Amp over regular Shadow Possession, much like Kiba) and when she transforms, the focus is on her Chakra, not strength. Again, you have no support in this fight.
Click to expand...
No one brought this up, and also, same argument as Kiba.
TFO said:
In all of S4 Fights, the only “consistency” we see with CSM2 is the Increase of Chakra by 10x, not strength. Its not a linear boost. Kidoumaru, Sakon/Ukon, Tayuya don’t have supporting Feats and Showings, and all statements are contradictory.
Click to expand...
You haven't proven any of them to be contradictory.
 
SlendVeny said:
He says he has 10x, and he toyed around with Choji. 10x is consistent.

No one brought it up.

"Kiba's new form wasn't said to be 10x" no one said that, and I promise every form doesn't have a listed multiplier. Do we need more proof that Baryon Mode is more than 10x base?

No one brought this up, and also, same argument as Kiba.

You haven't proven any of them to be contradictory.
Click to expand...
-Snip-

Forget about it. Doesn’t matter.
 
Last edited:
GokuSparkle said:
Either way both Edo Founders are only slightly weaker than their alive counterparts, so it wouldn't make up for the huge boost provided by Sage Mode.

I mean chakra is indeed accepted as proportional to strength. And a lot of the things you mention in relation to the S4 are arguments from ignorance
Click to expand...
-Snip-

You know what, forget about it. Doesn’t matter.
 
Last edited:
SlendVeny said:
Rinnegan is a crazy Amp though.
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Real Rinnegan sure, but those are just projections of Rinnegan so I don't think they have that same boost, which is supported by stuff like them not being able to summon the Gedo Mazo and use Limbo. Considering Alive Hashirama~>Alive Madara and Edo Hashirama~Edo Madara, it doesn't seem to have made that big a difference.
 
TFO said:
Depends on how “Drained” Haku was by time Naruto tapped into Kn0 because Kn0 would more than a 10x Amp for Stomping Haku, who we scale to/over Kakashi & Zabuza. Kn1 is comparable to CSM2 unless we’re saying Kn1 is a lesser amp over Kn0.

Edit: Tbf, Haku “wasn’t” fresh by time Naruto went into Kn0, so there is that.
Click to expand...
This is against the multiplier rule
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
After Alive SM Hashirama took care of Kurama in his final fight with Alive EMS Madara, and took EMS Madara head on in SM, didn't he seem more beat up than Madara in the end of the fight?
Click to expand...
It's definitely possible that that's because he reverted to base, and/or because he'd drained himself dealing with the MAS.
 
SlendVeny said:
That was on account of Kurama
Click to expand...

Are you sure about that? After SM Hashirama put Kurama to sleep, his armor was still intact and had no noticeable injuries, but after fighting EMS Madara, a portion of torso plate is gone along with his left pauldron, while his left arm is either bruised or burned.
 
SlendVeny said:
As if current Kawaki isn't > Kaguya in power.
Click to expand...
He is (at least with the horns, idk about otherwise), but that's not really the point. Someone's child is usually stronger than them, letalone with two mega powerful parents. The offspring of two Otsutsuki, one of whom is the 3rd strongest in the verse (behind Shibai and BM Naruto), would probably be exponentially stronger than them.
 
GokuSparkle said:
He is (at least with the horns, idk about otherwise), but that's not really the point. Someone's child is usually stronger than them, letalone with two mega powerful parents. The offspring of two Otsutsuki, one of whom is the 3rd strongest in the verse (behind Shibai and BM Naruto), would probably be exponentially stronger than them.
Click to expand...
I would agree with this if Naruto's son had been stronger than him.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Idk bout that, orange mask maybe, white mask no
Click to expand...
They both subrel so speed isn't an issue, and obito's hax is already dealt with by susanno being broken as **** all along with Obito flat out admiting that Itachi could have gotten him and Itachi stating he's everyone's weakness. AP is about the same too.
 
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