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this is the same issue as moon roshi. issue's been argued about repeatedly, and the staff continue to disregard things that happen on-screen in favor of downplaying verses they are biased against. @The_real_cal_howard agrees with us, anyway.
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Naruto: Shippuden Akatsuki (+others) AP upgrade
- Thread starter Wuke
- Start date
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It had been argued very extensively. We've had numerous threads on this subject by this point.
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- #403
The problem is there hasn't been an actual defeater to my arguments that hasnt been addressed. As it stands now, the story of naruto CANT EVEN HAPPEN with the way the tiers are. Plus it's just outright stated they are stronger. I don't know why they are trying so hard to argue against the blatant narrative.
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Counter: They are wildly Inconsistent and shouldn't be used to justify feats.
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it's almost like if it wasn't incorrect, people wouldn't have had such a long-standing issue with it.
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- #406
I'm referring to the 4th raikage being stronger than fully transformed bee
I'm aware. It's just supporting evidence
We don't need to see the fight if it tells us what happened. Does Rasa have hax or anything? No. He just has physical attacks
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- #407
I'm not using them to justify feats. You guys were the ones that originally brought them up as an antifeat for Hidan. Nice strawman though.
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- #410
If you're arguing against the blatant narrative and supporting evidence, as well as supporting scaling that doesn't allow the show to happen, then yeah, that seems a little biased to meBiased Against Naruto.
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- #411
Ok, so as it stands now, the only "antifeat" people have brought up is paper bombs which are either wildly inconsistent and shouldnt be used as antifeats, or consistent if you don't assume they are all the same strength. There hasn't been a proper contradiction to the databook statement. As long as there is a logically possible explanation for proposed defeaters, then it's not contradicted. I have given equally if not more likely interpretations for every rebuttal brought forth, and my scaling doesn't assume a contradiction as well as it preserves the narrative. This isn't hard guys, just accept this.
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That's extremely misleading. That's far from the only counter people have brought up.
The databook statement doesn't state they have higher AP. If anything it just states that they use specialized abilities.
We rely on evidence for feats and statements on the wiki. Not assumptions based on the "Narrative."
Also just because you want to argue that something hypothetical is "logically possible" doesn't mean it is more reliable to use than their actual feats and on-screen fights.
No.
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Look, this wouldn't even upgrade the verse as a whole, just some of the characters, so that is not about being biased, just about having a different opinion than you do.
Also, the argument can almost always be reversed to state that the people who want upgrades are rabidly biased for a verse, rather than against it.
Neither is good btw. We should try to make the verse statistics reliable, neither wanked or downplayed.
Also, the argument can almost always be reversed to state that the people who want upgrades are rabidly biased for a verse, rather than against it.
Neither is good btw. We should try to make the verse statistics reliable, neither wanked or downplayed.
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wouldn't it make more sense to end the thread on a vote, anyway? instead of closing the thread only taking into account "muh staff consensus says!!" the staff consensus also said roshi can't blow up a moon.
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- #415
It's the only counter that somewhat defeats the argument
It states they are stronger. "Unique abilites" can easily refer to the ability to make those chakra bombs, which is a forbidden jutsu, or kakuzus hardening ability, or just exceedingly high strength"
The evidence is that these brawler types beat up bijuu, and it's supported by the narrative AND databook
We barely see these on screen fights, so going off of the narrative and databook is logically LIKELIER than just assuming a contradiction
Yes.
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- #416
This isn't wank at all. This is literally allowing the story of naruto to happen. How are Kakuzu and Hidan who are 7-C supposed to take out Matatabi if she is 6-C? If anything, I'm being WAY more consistent than those against this upgrade. And as ive said numerous times already, the narrative and databooks support this.
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We literally see how. Hiden performs his ritual, stabs himself, and that takes her out.
All he needs is a drop of blood. That is nowhere near enough for him to be upgraded.
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No. The regular members make their arguments, and the staff evaluate them. That is always our procedure, or we would get complete anarchy with neverending edit-wars. It isn't a perfect system, but it works considerably more often than not.
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- #421
After she is already in base. We see her fully transform into her bijuu state. There's also no proof the he can even cut matatabi, given that she's a chakra entity
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Don't troll or be rude.
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staff evaluation tends to be wrong then lmao
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Being a chakra entity is irrelevant. 8-Tails is also a chakra entity and he can bleed. 9-Tails is a chakra entity, and he has flesh.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Would just like to mention that Kakuzu literally catches Matatabi's attempt to swat at them. That is all.
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- #426
I understand this, and I respect that decision, but it in cases like these where the staff are literally arguing against the point of the akatsuki, as well as supporting scaling and databooks, while also being proponents of tiering that doesnt allow the show to happen, it seems a bit ridiculous. I don't know why it's such a big deal. The point of the akatsuki is to kill bijuu. That's what they do. They scale
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- #427
The Eight tails is different. The two tails is surrounded by an aura of chakra.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I thought Matatabi was literally just made of Fire?
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same
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You forget that in the next panel, Matatabi overpowers and crushes him. It’s not that big of a difference, but she is stronger than Kakuzu.
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I’m not trolling or being rude. I’m just saying Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, etc don’t directly scale to the Akatsuki. At least their 7-C keys don’t.
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That doesn't scale to anything.
Matatabi in that fight =/= Matatabi in the War Arc. Matatabi in the War Arc is dozens of times bigger, and there's no proof that Yugito could use the full power of her Biju. She wasn't a Perfect Jinchuriki like Killer B.
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- #434
Yeah, pretty sure that doesnt happen, I'm gonna go check it out Right now
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That's not what a strawman is LMAO, stop throwing around Fallacies if you don't know what they mean.
> I'm not using them to justify feats
Also said person: don't underestimate paper bombs yall, they hurt Hashi's wood.
> you guys were the ones that originally brought them up as an antifeat for Hidan
an Anti feat implies something generally below a character's normal power, this is not the case with Hidan, him getting killed by explosive tags is consistent with most of his feats, which are consistently below 6-C tailed beast level.
- such as getting penetrated by Shikamaru's Shadows.
- getting decapitated by Asuma
* can get tagged by People like Shikamaru and Asuma, while Tailed beasts can Intercept and fight off characters like KCM1 and Killer Bee.
Hidan fighting the Tailed beasts is the Outlier here.
which either means A, Tailed beast's power is Inconsistent with how they are shown at the of the series, or B The Tailed beasts are probably significantly weaker than what the current wiki tiering suggests.
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wasn't the whole "bigger" thing already disproven like
pages ago
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- #437
Once again, you have no proof of the war arc version being stronger due to size. I have given evidence of the war arc counterparts being weaker or anything. It's stated she had control over her tailed beast, and against kakuzu and hidan, they state she's essentially fully transformed. I can grab evidence for all of that if you'd like
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- #439
Yes. it is a strawman, because I wasn't arguing that the Paper bombs should scale. I gave reasoning as to why they could, to remain consistent, but if they are inconsistent, then they don't work as an antifeat
No, it's an antifeat because we've seen explosive tags also perform way better feats
He gets decapitated by a cutting device enhanced with cutting power wind style. Doesnt work. Same thing goes for piercing with Shikamaru
Barely survives Chiruku? Pretty sure that doesnt happen in the manga. Only gets tagged by asuma when he's in shadow possession by shikamaru, doesnt count.
It's not an outlier for hidan, because it's stated he's stronger, and it's his entire purpose in the story.
It means A: The akatsuki are above the bijuu as the narrative suggests, the databooks corroborate, and the scaling shows, or B: you just disregard everything because you are incredulous
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- #440
Ok, all that means is he is overpowered after already reacting to and catching her paw. He still has to have the AP to take her out, as she is dead later. Other wise that attack shouldve killed him, which it obviously didn't
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