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Naruto Fast as Speed

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Arc7Kuroi

Arc7Kuroi

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Introduction
Greetings, this thread serves the purpose of getting an accepted speed for Sasuke's jutsu, Kirin. Without further adieu,

Premise
During Sasuke's fight with Itachi, we learn two key facts: Sasuke used fire style to slowly form a cumulonimbus cloud and the lightning bolt (Kirin) that was shot from the cloud took 0.001 seconds to reach the ground. We accept on wiki, thanks to real life science, that cumulonimbus clouds in polarized environments (common in thunder clouds), that said clouds sit at 2000 meters. So, given that we have a canon stated time frame as well as a canon stated cloud type (for which we have an accepted height on wiki), we can effortlessly calculate the speed of Kirin.

Speed of Lightning
Using the speed formula (v = x / t), where x = 2000 meters, and t = 0.001 seconds, we find Kirin to travel at 2.0e6 meters per second or roughly Mach 5381 (MHS+). There you go, simple as that.

Update
After some discussion, we have decided that given we have a canon distance from the clouds, with a clear visual, which can be used to ang-size it's height, we essentially have a canon stated cloud height (with just a few more steps). Furthermore, it is better to use the canon information from the manga itself. So, using this ang-size from KT, and the stated time frame we can get a speed.

Kirin lightning bolt speed = 2774.4 m / 0.001 s = 2.7744e6 m/s = Mach ~8089 (MHS+)

Conclusion
This thread isn't about any type of scaling whatsoever, rather it's just to get an accepted speed for Kirin.

This thread is dedicated to @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo as he makes my heart race like a bolt of lightning
 
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Personally I think it would be safer to use the height of the specific cloud that Kirin is being summoned from in this instance, instead of an average height.

Or alternatively, just average lightning speed.
 
Damage3245 said:
Personally I think it would be safer to use the height of the specific cloud that Kirin is being summoned from in this instance, instead of an average height.
Click to expand...
Cumulonimbus clouds range from like 2000m to 11800m, using the average of those two would be faster.

Damage3245 said:
I've seen a fair number of different values for it, some inferior and some superior.
Click to expand...
Sure, but as far as the wiki is concerned the low-end height for cumulonimbus clouds are 2000 meters, I don't see the issue with using our very own cloud heights when it is given that that is the cloud in question and we have a stated time frame.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Cumulonimbus clouds range from like 2000m to 11800m, using the average of those two would be faster.


Sure, but as far as the wiki is concerned the low-end height for cumulonimbus clouds are 2000 meters, I don't see the issue with using our very own cloud heights when it is given that that is the cloud in question and we have a stated time frame.
Click to expand...
The wiki has its own value for lightning speeds too, which I'd prefer to use above all else.

I can understand wanting to calc it though.
 
Damage3245 said:
The wiki has its own value for lightning speeds too, which I'd prefer to use above all else.

I can understand wanting to calc it though.
Click to expand...
I mean it's a case of stated time frame + stated cloud type (for height) vs assuming it's average lightning speed. I think we should prioritize canon statements.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I mean it's a case of stated time frame + stated cloud type (for height) vs assuming it's average lightning speed. I think we should prioritize canon statements.
Click to expand...
Zetsu's (bizarre) statement is to say that the speed of lightning is a timeframe + it's faster than sound. That might just be terrible writing from Kishimoto but I don't like the additional assumptions it forces us to make to try and make sense of it.

Also, doesn't this kind of assumption effectively imply that lightning has a single set speed when we know IRL that lightning varies in speed? Hence why we have an average for it.
 
Ok.

Before we don't start the perfect new war of values that are apparently "more consistent than one another", which is obviously inevitable, let's get this calculated support out of the way.

Hinata says that 10 km away, there's where the stuff is at.

Screen Height: 424 px
C-T-G: 84 px

2atan(tan(70deg/2) * [84/424]) = 15.7953786 degrees
Cloud to Ground Distance is is 2.7744 kilometers

So from the sky to the ground, the distance Kirin travels to hit the ground is 2774.4 meters.
unknown.png
 
Damage3245 said:
Zetsu's (bizarre) statement is to say that the speed of lightning is a timeframe + it's faster than sound. That might just be terrible writing from Kishimoto but I don't like the additional assumptions it forces us to make to try and make sense of it.
Click to expand...
We don't have to make any additional assumptions, he simply states the time frame. Additionally, it's common to use times to denote how fast someone is, like a sub-10s 100 meter dash, people don't say faster than 10 m/s, they say sub-10 seconds. How long something takes to happen can be easier to grasp than say a random velocity.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
We don't have to make any additional assumptions, he simply states the time frame. Additionally, it's common to use times to denote how fast someone is, like a sub-10s 100 meter dash, people don't say faster than 10 m/s, they say sub-10 seconds. How long something takes to happen can be easier to grasp than say a random velocity.
Click to expand...
You're right, allow me to rephrase.

I'm not a fan of the statement since it seems to imply via the calculation that there is only a single set speed that lightning can be at whereas lightning speed actually varies depending conditions, which is why we have an average speed of lightning to begin with.

Zetsu can be right that lightning can be a certain speed in a 0.001 second timeframe but that doesn't mean lightning is only that speed. Or that the Kirin specifically has to be that speed all the time either.

Since the atmospheric conditions can vary, the speed of lightning can vary and therefore the Kirin can vary as well. Hence why I prefer using the average lightning speed in general.

I could see saying the Kirin is "at least [average lightning speed], up to [calced speed]" to encompass all the information, but I don't think it's as straightforward as Zetsu just saying the Kirin is this calced speed.

EDIT: I might have done a bad job explaining myself since it's so late over here, so let me know if I'm making any sense.
 
Damage3245 said:
You're right, allow me to rephrase.

I'm not a fan of the statement since it seems to imply via the calculation that there is only a single set speed that lightning can be at whereas lightning speed actually varies depending conditions, which is why we have an average speed of lightning to begin with.

Zetsu can be right that lightning can be a certain speed in a 0.001 second timeframe but that doesn't mean lightning is only that speed. Or that the Kirin specifically has to be that speed all the time either.

Since the atmospheric conditions can vary, the speed of lightning can vary and therefore the Kirin can vary as well. Hence why I prefer using the average lightning speed in general.
Click to expand...
You're not wrong; however, at the same time we are dealing with fiction here. This would require us to assume that Kishimoto is aware that lightning can very in speed, when it's far more likely that the average Joe merely thinks of lightning as a bar for a set speed.

Damage3245 said:
I could see saying the Kirin is "at least [average lightning speed], up to [calced speed]" to encompass all the information, but I don't think it's as straightforward as Zetsu just saying the Kirin in this calced speed.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be opposed to this if we don't reach a unanimous consensus, but if we are going to go "at least [assumed average lightning], up to [calc'd speed]" then we should use KT's cloud height for the calc, since we'd be compromising with a minimum assumption end and a pure calc end.
 
KingTempest said:
Ok.

Before we don't start the perfect new war of values that are apparently "more consistent than one another", which is obviously inevitable, let's get this calculated support out of the way.

Hinata says that 10 km away, there's where the stuff is at.

Screen Height: 424 px
C-T-G: 84 px

2atan(tan(70deg/2) * [84/424]) = 15.7953786 degrees
Cloud to Ground Distance is is 2.7744 kilometers

So from the sky to the ground, the distance Kirin travels to hit the ground is 2774.4 meters.
unknown.png
Click to expand...
I agree with this if we are calculating rather than going with the assumption. Mach 8088 with this height.
 
Average lightning speed is our last option right now. We have enough proof that Kirin is far faster than a natural lightning bolt given the stated timeframe, stated cloud type and the scaling part, where a natural lightning bolt was proven to be nothing for characters Itachi and Sasuke scales to or above, but Kirin was hyped as something dangerous.
 
M3X said:
Average lightning speed is our last option right now. We have enough proof that Kirin is far faster than a natural lightning bolt given the stated timeframe, stated cloud type and the scaling part, where a natural lightning bolt was proven to be nothing for characters Itachi and Sasuke scales to or above, but Kirin was hyped as something dangerous.
Click to expand...
Just to address the last point, I think it's a little backwards.

Itachi and Sasuke have no direct comparisons with natural lightning bolt other than the fact that it is implied that natural lightning is difficult for them to handle. Kirin itself is not hyped to be something dangerous in terms of speed; natural lightning is, as that is what Kirin consists of.

But I will not digress too far onto this as scaling isn't really a part of this thread.
 
M3X said:
Damage

Read
Click to expand...
Yes, I know you're saying it has more to do with them scaling to other characters who scale to a calc or calcs that are superior to natural lightning bolts, but I don't think that's a solid point in its favor due to the nature of the feat.
 
M3X said:
Average lightning speed is our last option right now. We have enough proof that Kirin is far faster than a natural lightning bolt given the stated timeframe, stated cloud type and the scaling part, where a natural lightning bolt was proven to be nothing for characters Itachi and Sasuke scales to or above, but Kirin was hyped as something dangerous.
Click to expand...

To elaborate in my response to this, Kirin isn't hyped to be dangerously fast because it is Kirin, but because it is natural lightning.

Sasuke believes that his own jutsu - Kirin - cannot be evaded by at least someone of Itachi's caliber (and he should know as he invented the jutsu and he has fought Itachi extensively here).

Sasuke does not amplify the speed of the lightning bolt; the Kirin jutsu "merely" directs it towards his target.

Black Zetsu backs up Sasuke's words about it being "impossible" to evade by remarking on the speed of lightning. Not the speed of the Kirin exclusively, but just natural lightning.

So the part I'm disagreeing with in the post is where it is said "a natural lightning bolt was proven to be nothing for characters Itachi and Sasuke scales to".

I think that, at least as far as the manga is concerned, it is the opposite situation. Where a natural lightning bolt is proven to be a serious threat (in terms of speed at least) to characters such as Sasuke and Itachi (and therefore to characters who scale to them as well).

That's all I've got to say on that point, I think.
 
I don’t think that’s the contention, but rather all this means is lightning in Naruto (given the parameters we are given, time and cloud type) is slightly faster than irl lightning.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that it’s a natural bolt of lightning, rather we prefer to use the manga given parameters to get its speed as opposed to just assuming irl average lightning speed.

Ofc m3x can clarify his position further.
 
Just something to point out about comment on Itachi. Throughout the fight his condition gradually got worse and he was slowly losing his eyesight, not to mention after he dies Obito states that if Itachi wanted to he would have killed Sasuke. Itachis whole plan was to die by sasukes hands and make him a hero for konoha and to rid him of orochimarus curse mark.
 
I don’t think that’s the contention, but rather all this means is lightning in Naruto (given the parameters we are given, time and cloud type) is slightly faster than irl lightning.
Click to expand...

Even if we accept that it can be faster, that doesn't necessarily mean that speed is a constant.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that it’s a natural bolt of lightning, rather we prefer to use the manga given parameters to get its speed as opposed to just assuming irl average lightning speed.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm fine with mentioning that part of it in the speed, but prefer to include average speed as well since the speed of lightning can vary and an average is safer.

Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
Just something to point out about comment on Itachi. Throughout the fight his condition gradually got worse and he was slowly losing his eyesight, not to mention after he dies Obito states that if Itachi wanted to he would have killed Sasuke. Itachis whole plan was to die by sasukes hands and make him a hero for konoha and to rid him of orochimarus curse mark.
Click to expand...

Noted.
 
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