Naruto Fast as Speed

[UchihaSlayer96]

Damage, I don't think you get what the OP is getting at.

He's not claiming that Kirin isn't a lightning bolt; he's claiming that lightning speed in Naruto doesn't have to adhere by our standards on the wiki. It's not like Kishimoto knows what average lightning speed we use, and like you yourself said, lightning speed varies anyway.

So what the OP is trying to achieve here is to use the canonical inputs given to us by the manga to determine Kirin's speed. Personally, I find that more reliable, and faithful to the source material, than assigning Kirin with our average lightning speed and completely ignoring all of the information provided to us in the manga.
It's especially compelling because we have everything we need to calculate the speed, so I honestly don't see much of an issue with it.

 

[Damage3245]

He's not claiming that Kirin isn't a lightning bolt; he's claiming that lightning speed in Naruto doesn't have to adhere by our standards on the wiki. It's not like Kishimoto knows what average lightning speed we use, and like you yourself said, lightning speed varies anyway.

I never said that he said Kirin wasn't a lightning bolt. I think you may have misinterpreted me.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not much of an opinion on the verse specific stuff, but

We accept on wiki, thanks to real life science, that cumulonimbus clouds in polarized environments (common in thunder clouds), that said clouds sit at 2000 meters.

Do you want to use cloud thickness here or cloud altitude? Because what the page you link lists is the thickness of the cloud, not the altitude.
The altitude of the base of such a cloud is typically between 200m and 4000m. (also, I think polar air doesn't mean polarized air)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I never said that he said Kirin wasn't a lightning bolt. I think you may have misinterpreted me.

I meant to say that "wasn't moving at the speed of a regular lightning bolt", my bad. I'm just saying that we have enough to determine Kirin's speed in particular.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not much of an opinion on the verse specific stuff, but

Do you want to use cloud thickness here or cloud altitude? Because what the page you link lists is the thickness of the cloud, not the altitude.
The altitude of the base of such a cloud is typically between 200m and 4000m. (also, I think polar air doesn't mean polarized air)

Since we have a clear shot of the cloud and a canon distance away (for ang sizing) would that be preferred? Or is the average height preferred (2100m)?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Since we have a clear shot of the cloud and a canon distance away (for ang sizing) would that be preferred? Or is the average height preferred (2100m)?

If it's in a realistic ballpark then probably the ang sizing.

Also, is there a better translation of the 1/1000 s scan? Because lightning, in general, having a speed of 1/1000s is very weird... cause that's not a speed.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also, is there a better translation of the 1/1000 s scan? Because lightning, in general, having a speed of 1/1000s is very weird... cause that's not a speed.

Sadly there isnt. The raws say the same thing as the official translation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also, is there a better translation of the 1/1000 s scan? Because lightning, in general, having a speed of 1/1000s is very weird... cause that's not a speed.

Additionally, it's common to use times to denote how fast someone is, like a sub-10s 100 meter dash, people don't say faster than 10 m/s, they say sub-10 seconds. How long something takes to happen can be easier to grasp than say a random velocity.

The raws say the same thing as VIZ.

I’ll update my OP to reflect the current conclusions soon.

Edit: OP updated.

 

[Alexander]

ok looks good

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If it's in a realistic ballpark then probably the ang sizing.

Ang sizing the cloud height came to ~2.7km with some rough maths, which is well within the .2-4km value you gave.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So… this thread good with the current revised OP?

 

[LordTracer]

The update to the OP looks perfectly fine to me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The update to the OP looks perfectly fine to me.

I edited it with the CGM suggestions in mind so I’d hope so lel

 

[Theendzero13]

the op looks fine

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It looks perfectly reasonable to me, but I'm not a CGM.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So is this good or do we need more calc members?

 

[Damage3245]

I've asked for DontTalkDT's input once again, just to help this come to a conclusion. After that, it'll probably be fine to end and I'll give my final thoughts as well.

 

[BlackeJan]

I've asked for DontTalkDT's input once again, just to help this come to a conclusion. After that, it'll probably be fine to end and I'll give my final thoughts as well.

It’s takes a long time for him to comment on something. We might as well come to an agreement then when he does comes back we can just have him evaluate as well

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I mean I based my updates of the OP based entirely on DT's suggestions

 

[Damage3245]

It’s takes a long time for him to comment on something. We might as well come to an agreement then when he does comes back we can just have him evaluate as well

Sent a reminder, hopefully it won't take much longer.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think the distance scaling is ok.
Only questionable thing about this calc is if "lightning has a speed of 0.001 s" really translates into "the timeframe of the particular lightning coming from the clouds to the ground is specifically 0.001s".

As I mentioned to Damage in a chat earlier 0.001s (1ms) is specifically the duration of the dart leader, one of multiple consecutive cloud-to-ground strikes that make up real world lightning. So I wonder whether the author googled lightning speed and just picked up the value that way.
That's of course just speculation.

Personally, I don't care whether that's considered or not. Just felt like I should point out that the formulation being vague as it is makes things somewhat questionable.
With that my job here is done. Flies away

 

[M3X_2.0]

Really doubt Kishimoto would go that far on his research. Stating a timeframe and cloud type is by far his greatest research in the entire manga regarding real life physics.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yes, Kishimoto, a well-known professional Mrk, would never research something that deeply lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Only questionable thing about this calc is if "lightning has a speed of 0.001 s" really translates into "the timeframe of the particular lightning coming from the clouds to the ground is specifically 0.001s".

We don't have to make any additional assumptions, he simply states the time frame. Additionally, it's common to use times to denote how fast someone is, like a sub-10s 100 meter dash, people don't say faster than 10 m/s, they say sub-10 seconds. How long something takes to happen can be easier to grasp than say a random velocity.

As I mentioned to Damage in a chat earlier 0.001s (1ms) is specifically the duration of the dart leader, one of multiple consecutive cloud-to-ground strikes that make up real world lightning. So I wonder whether the author googled lightning speed and just picked up the value that way.
That's of course just speculation.

As this is mere speculation, as you acknowledge, I don't think it should be considered strongly.

Personally, I don't care whether that's considered or not. Just felt like I should point out that the formulation being vague as it is makes things somewhat questionable.
With that my job here is done. Flies away

I'll assume my OP is fine then, thanks for commenting.

 

[Damage3245]

As this is mere speculation, as you acknowledge, I don't think it should be considered strongly.

Your current method in the OP is also speculation.

You say:

We don't have to make any additional assumptions, he simply states the time frame.

But in order for that timeframe to mean anything at all, you have to assume that what Zetsu/Kishimoto meant is that it is the timeframe for lightning to travel from the cloud to the ground.

You might think that's a perfectly sensible assumption but don't pretend that it is not an assumption you have to make in order to create the calc in the first place.

Kishimoto just getting his facts wrong on lightning, which we know IRL varies in speed and is generally lower than your calc, is equally as likely as what you're proposing.

Hence why I've always felt the safest and fairest interpretation is to use the value for average lightning speed accepted by the wiki.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But in order for that timeframe to mean anything at all, you have to assume that what Zetsu/Kishimoto meant is that it is the timeframe for lightning to travel from the cloud to the ground.

Considering the context of the statement is an attack traveling from the clouds to Itachi (the ground). The most logical assumption is that it’d take .001 seconds to reach Itachi, as the context of the scenario is an attack traveling towards Itachi.

Kishimoto just getting his facts wrong on lightning, which we know IRL varies in speed and is generally lower than your calc, is equally as likely as what you're proposing.

You’re appealing a bit too much to reality here.

 

[Damage3245]

Considering the context of the statement is an attack traveling from the clouds to Itachi (the ground). The most logical assumption is that it’d take .001 seconds to reach Itachi, as the context of the scenario is an attack traveling towards Itachi.

Small correction, but Itachi is not at ground level.

 

[Arkenis]

Does itachi being closer to the cloud make the feat somewhat better for him?

 

[Damage3245]

Does itachi being closer to the cloud make the feat somewhat better for him?

Well, better for him than if he had actually been at ground level but worse for the lightning if we applied the 0.001 second timeframe to the distance it took to reach Itachi instead of the ground.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Does itachi being closer to the cloud make the feat somewhat better for him?

There’s no good way to calc anything for him from the feat tbh.

Small correction, but Itachi is not at ground level.

Itachi ain’t 100s of meters in the air either, kind of a negligible distinction.

 

[Arkenis]

There’s no good way to calc anything for him from the feat tbh.



Itachi ain’t 100s of meters in the air either, kind of a negligible distinction.

Aren't those hideouts like mountain sized or something? there's some calc for the kirins ap that calced their size so he's likely higher than fifth meters

 

[BlackeJan]

Have y’all ever though of….maybe that Kishimoto wanted Naruto verse of lighting to be faster then IRL lightning? y’all paying way too close to real world stuff and not try to understand from the anime/manga logic.

 

[Damage3245]

Have y’all ever though of….maybe that Kishimoto wanted Naruto verse of lighting to be faster then IRL lightning? y’all paying way too close to real world stuff and not try to understand from the anime/manga logic.

Our standards for physics typically operates on IRL stuff.

The original cloud height being proposed here was based on IRL measurements too.

 

[Arkenis]

Have y’all ever though of….maybe that Kishimoto wanted Naruto verse of lighting to be faster then IRL lightning? y’all paying way too close to real world stuff and not try to understand from the anime/manga logic.

I think generally yeah it seems lightning styles are meant to be faster than the average lightning speed (irl). Taking in the fact he made kid Kakashi have combat and reaction to cut a natural lightning bolt, something that's seen as being above their lightning styles which we also consider to be on the level of irl lighting already, It'd make sense natural lightning in Naruto is superior in every way to lightning styles.

 

[Arkenis]

Do we correlate the speed of lightning based off the amount of energy it has irl? If not then how do we determine the differing speeds for lightning irl?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We are given a stated distance to the cloud (and thus a height from ang sizing) and a stated time frame. This is being far over complicated.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I agree with this.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yeah, we don't need to overcomplicate the literally two most basic we're given: Distance and timeframe. This shouldnt be open to debate as it is now. That seems like stonewalling everyone here.

I propose we go ahead with the accepted calculation put on a blog and prepare the revisions.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah, we don't need to overcomplicate the literally two most basic we're given: Distance and timeframe. This shouldnt be open to debate as it is now. That seems like stonewalling everyone here.

I propose we go ahead with the accepted calculation put on a blog and prepare the revisions.

I agree. The opposition reeks of Hitchens's razor.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree. The opposition reeks of Hitchens's razor.

That applies to both sides, just saying.

We are given a stated distance to the cloud (and thus a height from ang sizing) and a stated time frame. This is being far over complicated.

I agree it's not complicated. I just think people are taking it as a given when it's based on interpretation here, not fact.

Of course, VSBW isn't a place for objective fact so if the majority go ahead with it, that's what we'll do.

I'm personally just dreading the conclusion of this thread being possibly abused in future revisions, but I'll wait and hold judgement on that.