Naruto - Eight Gates Multiplier Revision

[Damage3245]

The purpose of this thread is to re-examine the conclusion that was accepted in this CRT. Where is is currently accepted that this databook passage asserts that the jump from Seventh Gate to Eighth Gate is "dozens of times", so in other words any statistic that a user has with the Seventh Gate active becomes multiplier by at least 24x once they've activated the Eighth Gate.

I believe that the original proposal is a misinterpretation of what the databook is saying.

Arc7Kuroi translated this line from the databook for me:

体に眠っている本来の何十倍もの身体能力を無理矢理引き出すため
To forcibly draws out dozens of times the body’s dormant physical ability.

The state that the user is in under the influence of the Seventh Gate can hardly be called the user's "dormant" physical ability. In the Seventh Gate they're already far stronger than usual.

What that section is describing is that with all Eight Gates opened, the user exceeds the strength of the Hokage for the brief remainder of their life and they gain strength that is dozens of times their normal capabilities. There is no comparison made between the Seventh Gate and the Eighth Gate.

To double-check this, I put the Japanese text through an online translation tool to see what it says in full:

The state of having opened all eight gates—Opening Gate, Rest Gate, Life Gate, Hurt Gate, Limit Gate, View Gate, Wonder Gate, and Death Gate—is called the 'Eight Inner Gates Formation.' Because it forcibly draws out several dozen times a person's inherent physical abilities, it makes it possible to perform martial arts techniques that are normally impossible.

This phrase "本来の" is used, which mentions the users original/inherent physical abilities. In other words, their base form, prior to activating the Eight Inner Gates Formation.

This is verbatim said word for word back during the Chunin Exams Arc when we get our first explanation of the Eight Gates. We're told that the Eight Gates limit the chakra flowing through the body and when they're forcibly opened then the user draws upon strength dozens of times their usual level even as their body is destroyed and they will inevitably die.

For further support, just in case anybody is thinking from the Chunin Exams that the first three Gates alone grant the user dozens of times their own strength. In this manga panel where it describes the gates being opened, we can see from the visual of the figure in the panel that they have more than three gates open there, depicted by the shape of the gates changing from solid and orderly to chaotic lines.

In the anime adaption, episode 49 of the original series, at 17:30, we get to see this in detail as the anime depicts all eight of the inner Gates being opened as Guy's narration explains how the user gets dozens of times stronger from opening the Eight Gates.

In case the AI translation above doesn't suffice, here is another human translation:

The Gate of Opening, Gate of Healing, Gate of Life, Gate of Pain, Gate of Limit, Gate of View, Gate of Wonder, and Gate of Death…The state when all Eight Gates are opened is called Eight Gates Released Formation. One’s physical abilities that are essentially lying dormant within the body are forcibly withdrawn, [augmenting] one’s faculties several dozens of times over. When it is employed, it even enables the user to perform Taijutsu that one cannot typically unleash.

The proposal here is just to change the "at least dozens of times" multiplier from being the 7th Gate -> 8th Gate, to being base form -> 8th Gate.

VOTES

Agree: Damage3245, Nierre, Qawsedf

Disagree:

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I mean sure if you want Base Guy shit stomping every Non-Jūbito Tier character when he's verbatim stated to be Kakashi's rival.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean sure if you want Base Guy shit stomping every Non-Jūbito Tier character when he's verbatim stated to be Kakashi's rival.

I'm not proposing we do some reverse-multiplier scaling here. I don't think that would make sense. I'm only changing the assumption that Seventh Gate to Eighth Gate is an at least 24x multiplier. We don't do any reverse-multiplier scaling anyway on the current profile, so this wouldn't change base Guy's stats.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not proposing we do some reverse-multiplier scaling here. I don't think that would make sense. I'm only changing the assumption that Seventh Gate to Eighth Gate is an at least 24x multiplier. We don't do any reverse-multiplier scaling anyway on the current profile, so this wouldn't change base Guy's stats.

Then what is it even multiplying?

 

[MrTayman616]

I mean sure if you want Base Guy shit stomping every Non-Jūbito Tier character when he's verbatim stated to be Kakashi's rival.

I mean, multipliers being inconsistent in terms of feats isn't uncommon.

 

[Samlex1234]

Following

 

[Nami_Kami]

IN OG it's noted the Lotus is dozens of times increase in power. There are two Lotuses, Front Lotus and Reverse Lotus. Front Lotus is limited to the first gate, and the Reverse Lotus is limited to the first 3. Depending on how we interpret it, several dozens of times is either for just the first gate or the third gate at most. Given how massive the jump in power is between even the 7th and 8th gates alone, I doubt the 8th Gate is limited to dozens of times base.

 

[Damage3245]

IN OG it's noted the Lotus is dozens of times increase in power. There are two Lotuses, Front Lotus and Reverse Lotus. Front Lotus is limited to the first gate, and the Reverse Lotus is limited to the first 3. Depending on how we interpret it, several dozens of times is either for just the first gate or the third gate at most. Given how massive the jump in power is between even the 7th and 8th gates alone, I doubt the 8th Gate is limited to dozens of times base.

"Dozens of times" doesn't solely mean 24x, that's just a reasonable lowball we use. The Reverse Lotus isn't limited to the first three by the way; Rock Lee performed the Reverse Lotus with the Fifth Gate opened.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't think I fully understand, are you suggesting we use a random machine translation over a human translation here?

 

[Thelastmlg]

was it a mistranslation or something only in the anime that the gate makes you "many times stronger than the kage combined"?

anyway since eight gate guy scales to madara, i don't think any multiplier is gonna work for it

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think I fully understand, are you suggesting we use a random machine translation over a human translation here?

No; the first translation I quoted was by a human going by the username Arc7Kuroi.

I just posted the machine translation to double-check for consistency.

 

[DavidTPPM]

No; the first translation I quoted was by a human going by the username Arc7Kuroi.

I just posted the machine translation to double-check for consistency.

Alrighty then, so you're fine with Arcs translation then and are just arguing for a different interpretation

 

[Damage3245]

Alrighty then, so you're fine with Arcs translation then and are just arguing for a different interpretation

Yeah. I don't think there's enough to support for the passage to be referring solely to the user's capabilities with the Seventh Gate.

 

[Damage3245]

For further support, just in case anybody is thinking from the Chunin Exams that the first three Gates alone grant the user dozens of times their own strength. In this manga panel where it describes the gates being opened, we can see from the visual of the figure in the panel that they have more than three gates open there, depicted by the shape of the gates changing from solid and orderly to chaotic lines.

In the anime adaption, episode 49 of the original series, at 17:30, we get to see this in detail as the anime depicts all eight of the inner Gates being opened as Guy's narration explains how the user gets dozens of times stronger from opening the Eight Gates.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The state that the user is in under the influence of the Seventh Gate can hardly be called the user's "dormant" physical ability. In the Seventh Gate they're already far stronger than usual.

The inner gates ARE your dormant ability, multiplying that many times is multiplying on top of the 7th gate

That's your entire argument, this is either a terrible misinterpretation (or an intentionally ignorant claim)

Arc7Kuroi translated this line from the databook for me:
To double-check this, I put the Japanese text through an online translation tool to see what it says in full:
This phrase "本来の" is used, which mentions the users original/inherent physical abilities. In other words, their base form, prior to activating the Eight Inner Gates Formation.

This is WEIRD, you got Arc7 to translate it and his translation didn’t help your agenda so you appealed to machine translation (banned in our wiki) and now wanna use that for semantics gooning when you know it’s an inferior translation.

It's WORSE when you try to single out a specific word and conveniently skip out the exact wording that lends credence in support of the multiplier, that's downright dishonest.

Jin no sho pg280​

This is the phrase we are working with is

体に眠っている-本来の…​

• 眠る= to sleep, to slumber
• 〜ている= continuous aspect → “is sleeping inside / lies dormant within”

Altogether the quoted phrase translates to = “the inherent ability that lies dormant within the body”


It mentions power that lies inactive within in the body in conjunction to the word damage isolated (本来の) , so that was a straight up bad faith translation argument on Damage's end, the power that lies inactive within the body is being hit with a multiplier, not the base form

 

[Damage3245]

The inner gates ARE your dormant ability, multiplying that many times is multiplying on top of the 7th gate

That's your entire argument, this is either a terrible misinterpretation (or an intentionally ignorant claim)

The inner Gates aren't solely one's dormant strength. The first Gate alone releases the user's dormant strength, the remaining Gates allow the user to far exceed their own inherent capabilities.

This is WEIRD, you got Arc7 to translate it and his translation didn’t help your agenda so you appealed to machine translation (banned in our wiki) and now wanna use that for semantics gooning when you know it’s an inferior translation.

It's WORSE when you try to single out a specific word and conveniently skip out the exact wording that lends credence in support of the multiplier, that's downright dishonest.

I'm pretty sure it isn't banned to consult machines for translations as a secondary source; it's only if you're passing them off as human translations by lying about them.

I've done nothing dishonest here.

Altogether the quoted phrase translates to = “the inherent ability that lies dormant within the body”


It mentions power that lies inactive within in the body in conjunction to the word damage isolated (本来の) , so that was a straight up bad faith translation argument on Damage's end, the power that lies inactive within the body is being hit with a multiplier, not the base form

I already acknowledged the dormant part of it in Arc's translation.

 

[Saqphire]

Disagree FRA + separating kanjis to force a certain translation is not how you properly translate a word when there are certain contexts within said word being applied

The same thing applies in English; It’s like if I used the word ”dormant” and said ”This word means being asleep so he was asleep doing this” when the full context using the word is ”my full power lies dormant within me” which changes the word ”dormant” to not mean literally being asleep

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

In the anime adaption, episode 49 of the original series, at 17:30, we get to see this in detail as the anime depicts all eight of the inner Gates being opened as Guy's narration explains how the user gets dozens of times stronger from opening the Eight Gates.

The original anime is non canon so this image means nothing, you're asking us to appeal to headcanons of the studio writers who have no idea about Kishimoto's power system nor do they have any authority to canonize things

The inner Gates aren't solely one's dormant strength. The first Gate alone releases the user's dormant strength, the remaining Gates allow the user to far exceed their own inherent capabilities.


I'm pretty sure it isn't banned to consult machines for translations as a secondary source; it's only if you're passing them off as human translations by lying about them.

no there is an issue here, you used the MTL which omits significant data, esp the part that mentions dormant power part without that, it sounds like going from base to 8G, you used this and tried to connect it with the manga scan for the third gate or whatever it was
that line of argument relies ENTIRELY on your flawed translation to even work, that can just give off the idea that if a translation is closer to the manga it might be the more correct one and blurs the line between yours and arc's. Even tho it clarifies the dormant/inactive power is affected, people might be alluded to otherwise. We are not having that.

The first Gate alone releases the user's dormant strength, the remaining Gates allow the user to far exceed their own inherent capabilities.

this is entirely made up and backed up by no scans, ALL THE GATES limit chakra, they in general utilize your dormant powers it doesn't stop at one arbitrarily chosen gate, you're still using dormant powers in the second gate

 

[Testarossa002]

1. In the OG thread, the translation was done by an actual Japanese person. @Arnoldstone18 can confirm
2. It was further ratified by one of the wiki's translation helpers

 

[Damage3245]

The original anime is non canon so this image means nothing, you're asking us to appeal to headcanons of the studio writers who have no idea about Kishimoto's power system nor do they have any authority to canonize things

Did you miss the part where I showed the original manga panel too? The anime clip is to depict it in greater detail but the manga panel itself will suffice. It isn't limited to just three Gates.

no there is an issue here, you used the MTL which omits significant data, esp the part that mentions dormant power part without that, it sounds like going from base to 8G, you used this and tried to connect it with the manga scan for the third gate or whatever it was
that line of argument relies ENTIRELY on your flawed translation to even work, that can just give off the idea that if a translation is closer to the manga it might be the more correct one and blurs the line between yours and arc's. Even tho it clarifies the dormant/inactive power is affected, people might be alluded to otherwise. We are not having that.

Even if we ignore the MTL entirely, the point still remains.

this is entirely made up and backed up by no scans, ALL THE GATES limit chakra, they in general utilize your dormant powers it doesn't stop at one arbitrarily chosen gate, you're still using dormant powers in the second gate

This is where your own argument contradicts itself, I believe.

What you're arguing is the the first Seven Gates suppress the user's strength making what is suppressed their "dormant strength", and the Eighth Gate multiplies this "dormant strength" dozens of times over.

But the Eight Gates is also suppressing the user's strength. The user's "dormant strength" would also include what is suppressed by the Eighth Gate.

2. It was further ratified by one of the wiki's translation helpers

I believe that ratified translation supports my point, to be honest:

Forcefully drawing out dormant physical ability, dozens of times greater than normal, and taijutsu that were formerly impossible become possible to perform.

"Dozens of times greater than normal". The user's "normal strength" getting multiplied by dozens of times is entirely consistent with the chapter 85 explanation where the user gains "strength that is dozens of times his usual level".

 

[Peter1129]

So uhh I just want to point out that dozens of times doesn’t exist in Japanese. 数十倍 is actually tens of times which is at least 20x up to 99x not 24x.

 

[Damage3245]

So uhh I just want to point out that dozens of times doesn’t exist in Japanese. 数十倍 is actually tens of times which is at least 20x up to 99x not 24x.

Thanks for clarifying. That explains why the subtitles i saw for it in the anime said tens of times.

 

[Kaydee1648]

For further support, just in case anybody is thinking from the Chunin Exams that the first three Gates alone grant the user dozens of times their own strength. In this manga panel where it describes the gates being opened, we can see from the visual of the figure in the panel that they have more than three gates open there, depicted by the shape of the gates changing from solid and orderly to chaotic lines.

In the anime adaption, episode 49 of the original series, at 17:30, we get to see this in detail as the anime depicts all eight of the inner Gates being opened as Guy's narration explains how the user gets dozens of times stronger from opening the Eight Gates.

This interpretation feels kinda forced, and is based just on the need for a “downgrade”. To provide more context, the chapter centers on Lee attempting to use the Reverse Lotus, which begins at the Third Gate. When Kakashi asks Guy how many gates Rock Lee has learned to open, Guy responds that Lee can open up to the Fifth Gate. Kakashi, left in awe and anger, uses his Sharingan to observe the Keirakukei that has been unlocked.

As the image shows, the Eighth Gate chakra node is located on the left side of the chest. And, when we see the chakra nodes that have been unlocked, there is no visual of the Eighth Gate. Putting 1 and 1 together tells us that Kakashi was scanning Lee to confirm what Guy had told him earlier and most likely suggests that Kakashi only saw up to the 5th gate-node that had been unlocked.

 

[Damage3245]

This interpretation feels incredibly forced, driven by the desire for a “downgrade”. To provide more context, the chapter centers on Lee attempting to use the Reverse Lotus, which begins at the Third Gate. When Kakashi asks Guy how many gates Rock Lee has learned to open, Guy responds that Lee can open up to the Fifth Gate. Kakashi, left in awe, uses his Sharingan to observe the Keirakukei that has been unlocked.

As the image shows, the Eighth Gate chakra node is located on the left side of the chest. However, when we see the chakra nodes that have been unlocked, there is no visual of the Eighth Gate. This indicates that Kakashi was scanning Lee to confirm what Guy had told him earlier

Rock Lee hadn't opened the third or fourth gate at the time of that panel.

 

[Kaydee1648]

Rock Lee hadn't opened the third or fourth gate at the time of that panel.

I’m saying Kakashi most likely checked/scanned for the gates that has been unlocked, not the one currently in use, given the reasons above.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Did you miss the part where I showed the original manga panel too? The anime clip is to depict it in greater detail but the manga panel itself will suffice. It isn't limited to just three Gates.

I didn't even tackle that point I'm pointing out that the anime is not usable

"but that wasn't just 3 gates" --so what?, that still is not the 8th gate, how do we know this? Lee does not die, what does this tell us? a non 8th gate form can amp the user to be dozens of times stronger than their base via the lotus

Even if we ignore the MTL entirely, the point still remains.

it does not, if it's not 1:1 to those statements then they simply co exist making the previous argument pointless

This is where your own argument contradicts itself, I believe.

What you're arguing is the the first Seven Gates suppress the user's strength making what is suppressed their "dormant strength", and the Eighth Gate multiplies this "dormant strength" dozens of times over.

But the Eight Gates is also suppressing the user's strength. The user's "dormant strength" would also include what is suppressed by the Eighth Gate.

this doesn't hurt the multiplier it just means you can't backscale

I believe that ratified translation supports my point, to be honest:

I don't think it does, that person probably does not even care about the specifics of the multiplier and just gave off a basic translation, the AI translations, Arc's translations and even my word by word breakdown all proves that the referenced ability is what lies dormant within which is being hit with a multiplier, they just worded it differently due to not caring about semantics so that point is moot

So uhh I just want to point out that dozens of times doesn’t exist in Japanese. 数十倍 is actually tens of times which is at least 20x up to 99x not 24x.

this isnt the word in the raws

it uses this word which is 何十倍
何十 = several tens / dozens
倍 = times
basically means 30x or 24x, we go with the lower value which is 24x, hell the first letter by itself just means 何 = several / many / few / how many

 

[Peter1129]

Still the same thing. 十 is ten. Dozen doesn’t exist as a single kanji in Japanese. 何十倍 is just another way to say tens of times which is 20x minimum not 24x.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[Testarossa002]

This phrase "本来の" is used, which mentions the users original/inherent physical abilities. In other words, their base form, prior to activating the Eight Inner Gates Formation

Guy was in 7th gate before 8th gate opened
We see the chakra flowing through the gates and opening it one by one
Then we get the 7th gate before 8th gate was activated
You'd have a point if Guy jumps from no gates to 8th gate
The translation you quoted doesn't even oppose that. It can only be EIGF if ALL the gates are open.
EIGF = 8th gate opened
Dormant/original/inherent = things that happened before 8th gate is opened
Of which, the 7th gate falls into

You're assuming it's starting from base just because

Seventh Gate can hardly be called the user's "dormant" physical ability. In the Seventh Gate they're already far stronger than usual.

This is a non-arguement
Dormant is relative
The very mechanics of the gates is to release powers that are dormant within the body at different stages
the powers given by 3rd gate were "dormant" until the limit was overriden
Same applies to all other gates

I didn’t plan this for 2 years just to get derailed at the end by "muh kanji"

This is quite weird
I minimised the site and my first message got sent

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Still the same thing. 十 is ten. Dozen doesn’t exist as a single kanji in Japanese. 何十倍 is just another way to say tens of times which is 20x minimum not 24x.

it does not need to exist numerically, the plus is a ten (ju) and the "nan" (first letter) means many/several

altogether they become many tens / several tens, translators use dozens because that is the more natural sounding equivalent for English speakers, that's all there is to it, you're not a translator, your claims have no weight over countless translations we've had with the dozens interp

 

[Peter1129]

Dude this is basic Japanese 101. Dozen does not exist as a kanji in Japanese. The closest thing to dozen in Japanese is 十数倍 which is 11-19x. 数十倍 and 何十倍 are all just tens of times (20-99x) which can be translated as dozens of times in English but point is the word dozen does not exist in Japanese as a kanji.

You should stick to the original Japanese interpretation of the phrase which is 20x minimum as this is a Japanese series. That’s literally what all the other verses have done. If it was an English series and it said dozens of times than using 24x as a minimum is fine as dozen is a word in English. But this is a Japanese series hence the original meaning should be used rather than localization of the phrase.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I already said that is not necessary, you don't have to keep spamming if you're gonna just repeat the same claims, it creates clutter in the thread. For now we'll go with the translations confirmed by the TL helpers.

 

[Peter1129]

You literally don’t need to be a translator to know basic Japanese. You said it yourself dozens of times is just something that sounds natural sounding to English speakers but the original is tens of times. Why use a localization when this is something that doesn’t exist in the original language.

Also this is still relevant to this thread and almost nothing changes from using the original phrase. It’s literally just going from a 24x to 20x. A change so small it’s almost unnoticeable. Literally all I’m trying to do here is correct a basic and common error.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The word inherently is used to denote a range, if our translators believe dozens is appropriate to denote that range then that is fair for use

 

[Peter1129]

That’s literally not how things work. If something you’re trying to use as scaling doesn’t even exist as a term in the original language then you shouldn’t use it. It doesn’t matter if the translators translated it as such. All you have to do is just use the original meaning for the phrase in its original language and that’s it.

These here are some of the common enough terms in Japanese that can actually be used as multipliers

二倍/ 倍増 = Two times/Double = 2x

数倍/何倍 = Several/Many times = At least 3x

十倍/桁違い = Ten times/Order of magnitude = 10x

十数倍 = Doesn’t have a term in English = 11-19x

数十倍/何十倍 = Tens of times = 20-99x

百倍 = Hundred times = 100x

数百倍/何百倍 = Hundreds of times = 200-999x

 

[karo_senpaii]

The purpose of this thread is to re-examine the conclusion that was accepted in this CRT. Where is is currently accepted that this databook passage asserts that the jump from Seventh Gate to Eighth Gate is "dozens of times", so in other words any statistic that a user has with the Seventh Gate active becomes multiplier by at least 24x once they've activated the Eighth Gate.

I believe that the original proposal is a misinterpretation of what the databook is saying.

Arc7Kuroi translated this line from the databook for me:



The state that the user is in under the influence of the Seventh Gate can hardly be called the user's "dormant" physical ability. In the Seventh Gate they're already far stronger than usual.

What that section is describing is that with all Eight Gates opened, the user exceeds the strength of the Hokage for the brief remainder of their life and they gain strength that is dozens of times their normal capabilities. There is no comparison made between the Seventh Gate and the Eighth Gate.

To double-check this, I put the Japanese text through an online translation tool to see what it says in full:



This phrase "本来の" is used, which mentions the users original/inherent physical abilities. In other words, their base form, prior to activating the Eight Inner Gates Formation.

This is verbatim said word for word back during the Chunin Exams Arc when we get our first explanation of the Eight Gates. We're told that the Eight Gates limit the chakra flowing through the body and when they're forcibly opened then the user draws upon strength dozens of times their usual level even as their body is destroyed and they will inevitably die.

For further support, just in case anybody is thinking from the Chunin Exams that the first three Gates alone grant the user dozens of times their own strength. In this manga panel where it describes the gates being opened, we can see from the visual of the figure in the panel that they have more than three gates open there, depicted by the shape of the gates changing from solid and orderly to chaotic lines.

In the anime adaption, episode 49 of the original series, at 17:30, we get to see this in detail as the anime depicts all eight of the inner Gates being opened as Guy's narration explains how the user gets dozens of times stronger from opening the Eight Gates.

The proposal here is just to change the "at least dozens of times" multiplier from being the 7th Gate -> 8th Gate, to being base form -> 8th Gate.

I disagree with this. Your main example here to back up that this is from base from is where kakashi is explaining the lotus , while there is still debate over whether he may or may not be talking about just the lotus , but if we examine the full translation , I'm more inclined to believe that section was specifically talking about when someone goes from the seventh to the eight gate.

Spoiler

開門、休門、生門、傷門、杜門、景門、驚門、死門。。。八門全てを開いた状態のことを ”門遁甲の陣“ と言う。体に眠っている本来の何十倍もの身体能力を無理矢理引き出すため、通常では繰り出すことのできない体術をも可能にする。一門から七門を使用しても、体はダメージを負い、八門…

つまり死門まで開いた者は火影すら上回る力を手にすることができるが、その代償として命を落とすと言われている。解放すると、赤い血の蒸気に覆われるが、それは命の炎が燃えている証。生命が尽きるのと引き換えに、 大切なものを守りきる。 強い覚悟と意志が必要とされる究極の体術と言えよう。


The eight gates are: Kaimon (Gate of Opening), Daimon (Gate of Rest), Seimon (Gate of Life), Jikumon (Gate of Wounds), Dumon (Gate of Du), Jingumon (Gate of Surprise), and Shimon (Gate of Death). The state in which all eight gates are open is called "Fugaku-jun. The body is forced to draw out dozens of times its original physical capabilities that are dormant in the body, making it possible to perform body techniques that cannot be performed under normal circumstances. one uses the first seven gates, the body is still damaged, and the eighth gate...

In other words, it is said that those who open up to the death gate can obtain a power that surpasses even the fire shadow, but at the cost of losing their lives. When released, the body is covered in red blood vapor, a sign that the flame of life is burning. In exchange for the end of their life, they must protect what is precious to them. It is the ultimate body art that requires strong determination and will

one uses the first seven gates, the body is still damaged, and the eighth gate...

Merely looking at this section it is clearly acknowledging the fact that the seventh gate has been opened before hand but that this dormant power is being drawn out when you go from the seventh to the eight gate.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll address everyone's posts later today.


EDIT: Got back to my PC later than expected, so response should be up tomorrow morning.

 

[MeiouHades]

Neutral and following.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Dude this is basic Japanese 101. Dozen does not exist as a kanji in Japanese. The closest thing to dozen in Japanese is 十数倍 which is 11-19x. 数十倍 and 何十倍 are all just tens of times (20-99x) which can be translated as dozens of times in English but point is the word dozen does not exist in Japanese as a kanji.

You should stick to the original Japanese interpretation of the phrase which is 20x minimum as this is a Japanese series. That’s literally what all the other verses have done. If it was an English series and it said dozens of times than using 24x as a minimum is fine as dozen is a word in English. But this is a Japanese series hence the original meaning should be used rather than localization of the phrase.

you are correct
in the same way 誰 (dare, "who") becomes 誰か (dareka, "someone") or 何 (nani, "what") becomes 何か (nanika, "something") by adding か, it just becomes "tens"

i'd just seen it translated as dozens before hence why i did that, but taken literally it is just plural tens yes

 

[Damage3245]

I’m saying Kakashi most likely checked/scanned for the gates that has been unlocked, not the one currently in use, given the reasons above.

I do not believe this to be the case. Rock Lee was not in the same stance as shown in this panel, nor does that figure have any of Rock Lee's physical characteristics. I think it is more reasonable that this is simply meant to be a generic shinobi showcasing the location and explanation of the Eight Gates.

I didn't even tackle that point I'm pointing out that the anime is not usable

The anime is tertiary canon and is quite able to be used in moments of ambiguity in the manga or when users have different interpretations of what a scene is showing us. The anime version clarifies the manga panel in question.

"but that wasn't just 3 gates" --so what?, that still is not the 8th gate, how do we know this? Lee does not die, what does this tell us? a non 8th gate form can amp the user to be dozens of times stronger than their base via the lotus

I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't arguing that Rock Lee was using all Eight Gates.

I don't think it does, that person probably does not even care about the specifics of the multiplier and just gave off a basic translation, the AI translations, Arc's translations and even my word by word breakdown all proves that the referenced ability is what lies dormant within which is being hit with a multiplier, they just worded it differently due to not caring about semantics so that point is moot

If you look at the wording from Testarossa's thread; "The body is forced to draw out dozens of times its original physical capabilities that are dormant in the body". The "original physical capabilities" here is the user's normal statistics; the "dozens of times their normal statistics" is what is dormant in the body thanks to the Eight Gates suppressing them. Once all of the Eight Gates are forced open, then the user gets access to their full dormant strength which is "dozens of times their normal statistics".

It's not that the user gets access to all of their dormant strength once Seven Gates are open and then that strength is somehow multiplied dozens of times over. That doesn't line up with the explanation of how the Eight Gates work.

Guy was in 7th gate before 8th gate opened
We see the chakra flowing through the gates and opening it one by one
Then we get the 7th gate before 8th gate was activated
You'd have a point if Guy jumps from no gates to 8th gate
The translation you quoted doesn't even oppose that. It can only be EIGF if ALL the gates are open.
EIGF = 8th gate opened
Dormant/original/inherent = things that happened before 8th gate is opened
Of which, the 7th gate falls into

You're assuming it's starting from base just because

Since the Eight Gates are opened sequentially, it is a given that the user must activate the Seventh Gate before the Eighth Gate.

The part where I differ from your interpretation is this line: "Dormant/original/inherent = things that happened before 8th gate is opened"

What I believe to be the case here from the wording of the databook statement, combined the explanation of the Eight Gates we were given in the manga itself, is that the "dormant/original/inherent" power is before any of the Eight Gates is opened.

Let's look at your own translation from the original thread for it:

"The eight gates are: Kaimon (Gate of Opening), Daimon (Gate of Rest), Seimon (Gate of Life), Jikumon (Gate of Wounds), Dumon (Gate of Du), Jingumon (Gate of Surprise), and Shimon (Gate of Death). The state in which all eight gates are open is called "Fugaku-jun. The body is forced to draw out dozens of times its original physical capabilities that are dormant in the body, making it possible to perform body techniques that cannot be performed under normal circumstances."

You're assuming that the latter part of "The body is forced to draw out dozens of times its original physical capabilities that are dormant in the body" is referring to what happens once the user opens the Eighth Gate. But that section isn't just for the Eighth Gate specifically, it's for what happens when the user opens all Eight Gates. The statement makes sense as it is directly preceded by the name for all Eight Gates being opened.

Here is another human translation, done by a user from the Naruto Forums of that databook passage:

The Gate of Opening, Gate of Healing, Gate of Life, Gate of Pain, Gate of Limit, Gate of View, Gate of Wonder, and Gate of Death…The state when all Eight Gates are opened is called Eight Gates Released Formation. One’s physical abilities that are essentially lying dormant within the body are forcibly withdrawn, [augmenting] one’s faculties several dozens of times over. When it is employed, it even enables the user to perform Taijutsu that one cannot typically unleash.

Can you see where I'm coming from with this? It's the user's normal abilities that are multiplied dozens of times over by unleashing all of their dormant strength that is suppressed by the Eight Gates.

This is a non-arguement
Dormant is relative
The very mechanics of the gates is to release powers that are dormant within the body at different stages
the powers given by 3rd gate were "dormant" until the limit was overriden
Same applies to all other gates

Going by that explanation, this lines up more with what I explained further up in this post. That what is suppressed by the Eighth Gate is also part of the user's dormant strength and therefore it doesn't make sense for the dormant strength suppressed by the previous seven Gates to be what is being multiplied here.

Eight Gates Breakdown (Base - Gate 8)

Base (no Gates):

• Humans normally use only ~20% of muscle power (brain limiter).
• About 30% of stamina is accessible for taijutsu, the rest is capped by natural chakra/stamina limits.

1st Gate – Opening (Front Lotus):

• Removes the brain’s limiter → full 100% muscle usage (~×5 jump from base).
• Unlocks suppressed chakra pathways, forcing more stamina into circulation.
• Kakashi: “Dozens of times stronger” than base.

2nd–7th Gates:

• Each Gate forces open chakra points tied to specific organs.
• Provides compounding boosts in strength, speed, and stamina release.
• No official multipliers stated.

8th Gate of Death (Eight Gates Formation):

• Goes beyond stamina reserves, burning cellular life energy itself.(life force)
• Databook: “Forcibly draws out physical abilities dozens of times greater than what lies dormant in the body.”
• This is not just using reserves, it’s multiplying beyond the body’s natural maximum.

Your breakdown of the Eight Gates is useful here but not entirely accurate. Kakashi doesn't state that the opening of the First Gate multiplies the user's strength by dozens of times. What he says is that opening the Eight Gates enables the user to draw upon strength dozens his usual level. The visual in both the manga and the anime adaptation show this as Kakashi referring to multiple gates, not just the first.