Naruto AP High 6-C Character Revision Thread

[NoodIes67]

Is the scan of onoki blocking the attacks of the susanoo clones before or after Tsunade hits her susanoo clone.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

To add to what Monkey said, yeah Chakra is used to strengthen the body. Not to mention to get more chakra you still need to strengthen the sources for it anyway on some level.

Is just that there are specific abilities that channel chakra towards boosting the body way more effectively than just simply using chakra the normal way. Otherwise Sakura's strength technique wouldn't be a specific technique, is what everyone would be doing. The Raikage's as well.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Is the scan of onoki blocking the attacks of the susanoo clones before or after Tsunade hits her susanoo clone.

It happened after Tsunade toppled the Susanoo

 

[NoodIes67]

Ah then yes, I was under the impression she defeated it, regardless we still have her scaling physically in power above the raikage so she still would be biju level.

 

[Ronnijuro]

Chakra doesnt enhance the body physical strength/speed or durability.

Except it actually does.
Databook 1:


Chakra

Accumulating chakra and forming seals to activate a jutsu!

The physical and mental energies from 130 million body cells, that is, chakra, are accumulated, and by performing seals, this energy is converted into a jutsu. If this sequence is performed impeccably, the jutsu is activated.

To activate jutsu other than taijutsu, basic chakra conversion is needed.

To put it plainly, chakra is what fuels a jutsu. The mental and physical energies of a shinobi's body are joined together into stamina, which is internally converted into chakra, the energy source for a jutsu's activation. The efficiency of this conversion is influenced by the user's skill. Being able to efficiently convert stamina means a possibility to cast an even larger number of jutsu. In addition, chakra can be used to temporarily trigger some physical abilities. Thanks to this, shinobi can perform superhuman physical feats.

Yeah, but almost all examples on Narutoverse is what I said and what you can see in that info you posted. Chakra fuels a jutsu. Jutsus that can enhance speed, durability and power.

I only remember 1 example of what you said right now, Sasuke vs Haku, he probably used that to enhance his speed (short boost) to evade the attack. 12 (and I think this is Shunshin no Jutsu basically)

There is no proof of the use of this to achieve the same power as bjuudamas, that's pure wank.

 

[GodlyTae]

As we already shown people can damage gykui who can tank his own bijuu bombs so it has been shown.Using body flicker requires using charka as well so it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[Damage3245]

Gyuki was seriously injured across his entire body from the barely charged Biju Bomb.

On top of that compare the size of the Biju Bomb explosion to the size of Gyuki's body; even if the Biju Bomb is remotely comparable to the calced ones from the other Tailed Beasts, Gyuki would have been hit only be a fraction of the Biju Bomb explosion's total energy.

 

[JaJasBizarreAdventure]

I don't see an issue of his whole body being damaged if the explosion covered his whole entire body. Also, the size of the bomb only changes the DC and there's no evidence it changes the AP.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The fact that it explodes way smaller than any fully charged Bijuu bomb and you can literally see it took much shorter to shoot than those same bombs lets you make a rather safe guess.

That's not a baseless assumption, it has logical backing.

 

[GodlyTae]

We ca't eyeball it and say it 'was barely charge' that would be headcanon.Also do you have like a calc or anything proving he only took a fraction of the bijuu bomb.You are just eyeballing it and saying this.

 

[GodlyTae]

Thats headcannon you can't prove it was any less impactful than the regular ones.We would never be able to prove that.Unless you calc it

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The fact that the explosion happens...? There wouldn't be an explosion if there wasn't escaped energy, just as you'd be likely tier 8 just for surviving inside the Sun since you are barely being hit by a fraction of the energy's totality.

And considering he took little time and the explosion is way, way smaller than usual that's a pretty safe assumption to make. What do you have as proof of the contrary?

 

[NoodIes67]

Okay now we've basically gotten to the point where the people arguing against this upgrade are contradicting the wiki's justification for the biju's durability being large island level. So at this point we've basically proven that these characters do scale to the biju's durability and it has now become and argument of whether the biju are truly large island level.

You're assuming there is less energy infused into the 8 tails biju bomb based on the amount of time he charges it which is incorrect for multiple reasons.

For one it could be cinematic timing and he could have charged it for a similar period of time, we can't actually measure the amount of time between panels.

For two, characters logically can infuse chakra into jutsu at different rates, so even if you argue he did charge it in a less amount of time, he could have been infusing his chakra into it at a higher rate which would make sense because of how frantic he was while fighting the 10 tails.

For three, even you say there is less chakra put into the biju bomb, it is unquantifiable how much less chakra is placed into this one vs the other, so you'd be unable to prove it is significant difference between the two so it would still be relativistic.

The size of the explosion is irrelevant to the overall AP of the attack, and we don't even see the full explosion on panel, so you'd be unable to prove it was actually smaller.

 

[Damage3245]

> So at this point we've basically proven that these characters do scale to the biju's durability and it has now become and argument of whether the biju are truly large island level.

Which characters specifically? Because the only character you've mentioned in the OP to have an on-panel feat of harming a Biju is the Fourth Raikage.

Funny that you say it is wrong to assume that the Biju Bomb is weaker than the others just by offering three other assumptions.

> The size of the explosion is irrelevant to the overall AP of the attack

That seems a bit odd, seeing as the whole reason why the Biju Bombs have their AP is because they were explosions of a certain size. Logically bigger explosions are more powerful and smaller explosions are less powerful.

 

[AguilaR101]

That's an AoE fallacy i'm afraid, DBZ characters doesn't need to bust planets everytime they fire a ki blast for us to assume his attacks are planet level

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except that's because they push back or survive the attacks that we explicitly know have the power to destroy planets.

The bijuu beast ball has it's AP not by destruction but by it's AoE in the first place, and it would be cherry picking to just assume one with a much smaller explosion is somehow equal to the bigger ones, that never directly hit the Tailed Beasts.

 

[Xulrev]

The size of the explosion is irrelevant to the overall AP of the attack

Well that's just untrue since the wiki has an explicit page wherein the size of an explosion can be used to justify AP

 

[Callsign_Castle]

"Moving on we are going to basically re-hash my previous kakuzu thread here. So Kakuzu tanked a direct attack from the full 2 tails perfect jinchuuriki and also tanked another attack that blew up the building they were i and destroyed a large portion of a mountain. For proof that kakuzu tanked it the panel following their battle displays a completely unharmed and uncaring kakuzu."

I take issue with this as well, because you're passing off two independent scenes as one. Yugito slammed her paw onto Kakuzu who was clearly struggling because his arms are surrounded by vibration drawings/animation indicating shaking, then we don't see what happens exactly next, but there's an explosion of debris by Yugito's paw.

Her fireball attack was a building buster only , and literally nobody was shown in the area other than Yugito. We can clearly see Hidan jump away at the last minute, unscathed, talking about the heat of the fireball. The underground area they were in also had its ceiling visibly intact.

The scene with all the destroyed buildings and mountai only happens after a timeskip during which time Kakashi is visited in the hospital by Kurenai and Asuma. Judging from the damage to each individual building its more likely Yugito let off several fireball attacks, than she nuked the entire area in one go.

"So Deidara's scaling is extremely direct as he literally one-shots Isobuwith a normal bomb.Now this is good because Deidara is also later able to tank his own bomb attacks."

His C0 (Strongest attack) is 6-B, which on this wiki equates to rivaling 50% Kurama. The bijuu's TBBs were estimated to be 6-C via their TBBs as there are multiple scenes of the bijuu tanking their own blasts, yet you see Deidara use one normal bomb on the three tails and think its anything other than an outlier?

 

[Tenpin87]

The claim that Biju don't scale to their Bijudama is based on false evidence. Bijudama have never been shown to take a long time to charge. The five bijudama that were calced were shown being fully charged within a single panel.

https://i9.***********.net/naruto/571/naruto-3010501.jpg

The giant Bijudama that Kurama and the five other biju made were also show to be formed within a few panels.

https://i5.***********.net/naruto/571/naruto-3010519.jpg https://i2.***********.net/naruto/571/naruto-3010521.jpg

We even see Kurama and Gyuki fire out multiple fully charged bijudama in rapid succession. You might say they aren't fully charged but they look roughly the same size as the ones from the five biju that were going to hit Naruto and co. The Juubi is also shown charging his massive juubidama in a single panel.

https://i3.***********.net/naruto/610/naruto-3712565.jpg

Given that Bijudama have been shown to charge quickly, i don't get why the assumption that Bee's wasn't fully charged is being made. Especially since Bee was in kamui for multiple pages getting ready to sneak attack the juubi. So from what is shown, he would of had more time to charge his bijudama than usual. As they usually take a panel to charge even for the largest ones. Also as further evidence, the Bijudama that Bee uses is the same size as other fully charged Bijudama.

https://i3.***********.net/naruto/610/naruto-3712567.jpg https://i9.***********.net/naruto/610/naruto-3712569.jpg https://i1.***********.net/naruto/610/naruto-3712571.jpg https://i7.***********.net/naruto/610/naruto-3712573.jpg

Finally, the claim that the Bijudama explosion was smaller than other ones, is completely unfounded. There is nothing to even scale the explosion to besides Bee, and Bee is incredibly small compared to it.

https://i2.***********.net/naruto/611/naruto-3726457.jpg

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There ia nothing to scale the perfectly circular explosion that has Gyuki very cleary at the center...? What?

And Bee is even smaller than the patch of barren ground he created with the tornado he made with his body, yet those explostions are even biggee than this area. Meanwhile I can even notice Bee's tentacles despite being so little, where there's no trace of him in the barren patch of ground they are fighting on in the spread image of the 5 bijuu bombs exploding.

 

[Tenpin87]

I said Bee could be used to scale the explosion? I think him being that big compared to it is just faulty scaling from kishi and should be disregarded though. The fact that the bijuudama pre exploding is the same size as any other fully charged bijuudama supports that. It more than likely kishi just wanted to actually show bee in the explosion, instead of Bee wasting the oppertunity Naruto and Kakashi gave him by firing off a far smaller and weaker Bijuudama than normal when he had more than enough time to make a regular one or one even stronger. A scenario that makes zero sense givin the context of the fight.

 

[NoodIes67]

I agree with tenpin, there is nothing to suggest that the 8 tails didn't have enough time to make a fully charge biju bomb, and you are using an AoE fallacy, like not every ki blast in dragonball destroys the planet they're on but we know regular ki blasts can do that, so it's just an inconsistency from the artists perspective as it would be nearly impossible to consistently draw each explosion to the proper size.

 

[NoodIes67]

Also damage, I not only showed the raikage directly hurting the 8 tails, I also showed deidera one tapping the 3 tails, and then I showed how garaa scales above deidera's C3 and to Rasa who can subdue shukaku. After that I displayed how the 3rd kazekage was stated to be stronger than both gaara and rasa and that sasori has him as a puppet. I also showed Tsunade being stated to have more power than the raikage and kisame being stated to have jinchuriki level power and then 7th gate guy scaling above him. I've also proven in both threads how kakuzu was directly able to tank attacks from the 2 tails perfect jinchuriki, and why it is likely he also has the AP to hurt the 2 tails. So yes I have proven all of these characters scaling in relation to the biju.

 

[HST_Master]

I agree with tenpin, there is nothing to suggest that the 8 tails didn't have enough time to make a fully charge biju bomb, and you are using an AoE fallacy, like not every ki blast in dragonball destroys the planet they're on but we know regular ki blasts can do that, so it's just an inconsistency from the artists perspective as it would be nearly impossible to consistently draw each explosion to the proper size.

Except it's been said several times before that the Bijuu Bombs are calc'd by the size of the explosions, not like DB where we've got clear cut destruction feats/statements from the characters.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The calc in matatabi's AP also comes from assuming the size of the mountain Kakashi says it destroyed and assuming vaporization, a mountain smaller than the Bijuu blast.

Unlike Ki blasts. We don't care about of Kid Buu's energy ball size because Goku leaves it clear cut it was gonna blow up Earth without any issue. It's an empty comparison.

@Tenpin The way I read the last line I thought you were implicating Bee's size to say the bijuu blast is bigger than it's thought, apologies.

But there is literally no reason to assume Kishimoto was being inconsistent when he's rarely, if ever, inconscistent about how big the Bijuudama blasts can get and the effect they are likely to have on their surroundings.

 

[Tenpin87]

That's pretty true, but at the same time i don't think it is honest to use this single panel with no other referance for scaling to say that Bee's Bijuudama was weaker. I could possibly agree if they showed more of the surroundings for scale and it still was that small. But there would still be the issue of context. If we are going by size=ap then that bijuudama would be possibly tens of times weaker than usual. If so it makes zero sense given the context of the fight, to say bee used a bijuudama far weaker than usual against the juubi. Imo it is better to assume that Kishi didn't draw the bijuudama to proper scale to show Bee caught in the explosion instead of Bee wasting an oppertunity to hurt the Juubi by using a far weaker Bijuudama.

Also after reading over the chapter again i have discovered that when Bee fires the Bijuudama, he litterally says "Full-Power Attack". This is infalliable proof that said Bijuudama is not weaker than any other.

https://i6.***********.net/naruto/611/naruto-3726451.jpg

 

[NoodIes67]

In the large island level biju bomb calc, the size of the mountain is not assumed nor is vaporization assumed.

"325.88 / 19 = 17.1515789 x 51 (height of one of the mountains) = 874.730524 (Height)

17.1515789 x 104 (radius of that same mountain) = 1783.76421m (Radius)

Volume = (Pi)*(Radius^2)*(Height/3)

(Pi)*(1783.76421^2)*(874.730524/3) = 2.91459215e9 cubic metres or 2.91459215e+15 cubic centimetres. This is the volume of a mountain." Here is calculation for the size of the mountain.

Here is a showing of a biju bomb's aftermath where we can clearly see the dust rising from the ground indicating vaporization.

 

[BlackeJan]

Bottom line is, this would ruin scaling VERY hard since Pre Shippuden characters never displayed High 6C except Akatsuki and they scale to them

 

[NoodIes67]

Unless you can actually bring up contradictions it doesn't matter. This would just mean that the old scaling is wrong and that was the entire purpose of this thread as the wiki has been inconsistent for a long time now. I basically included everyone that would scale to the akatsuki on this list anyway, now I did leave out a few characters like MS sasuke Onoki and Kakashi, but I figure once this thread goes through I'll just make a seperate thread for them.

 

[AstralKing7]

Dude Tsuande was surprised a when Madara sliced a mountain in half

 

[NoodIes67]

Yeah that's because Tsunade doesn't have the destructive capacity to slice a mountain in half, and you can still be surprised by things that are weaker than you. If a rat fell on my head from the ceiling, I'd be surprised as hell.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

TBF, a character in a verse treating something as shocking, dangerous or something along those lines won't always match up to the logic we use to rate them here on site.

EX: Most Jedi and Sith are like High 6-A or 5-B but treat 9-A blasters as actual threats in various media.

Simply put: creators are not working with our standards.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, that'll depend from fiction to fiction. At least for the Jedi, they aren't gonna tank those blasters without their force powers, so negligence can still cost them.

But Kakashi doesn't stop being Bijuu level (if he was) because he's not using a jutsu.

 

[NoodIes67]

Once again this argument in relation to the characters being surprised at the DC of the biju has been refuted, as DC does not equal AP and being surprised at the DC of an attack does not contradict your AP being on that level because the characters could simply be impressed by the AoE and saying that they are shocked therefore weaker is an asumption that cannot be proved.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And once again your point falls on its face and loses value when we use the AoE of the Bijuu Bombs in the very calc that gets them their rating, and any equivalence to DB has literally no grounds to stand on because Dragon Ball has left it rather clear many attacks would have wiped planets clean despite being no bigger than a ball of energy or a laser as wide as a person.

Bijuu Bombs are big attacks, they have huge AoE. You are lying with a bold face if you say that under these conditions, "size doesn't matter". We might as well not use pixel scaling to get the size of the mountain that the Bijuu ball evaporated and there goes High 6-C.

 

[GodTongue5280]

Have you considered that this bijuudama's explosion was smaller because Gyuki was literally at the epicenter to tank and dampen the blast? It literally collided with him before exploding so if anything the explosion being smaller is evidence that Gyuki tanked most of it's force, consistent given he effectively was the epicenter of the explosion.

 

[NoodIes67]

Have you considered that this bijuudama's explosion was smaller because Gyuki was literally at the epicenter to tank and dampen the blast? It literally collided with him before exploding so if anything the explosion being smaller is evidence that Gyuki tanked most of it's force, consistent given he effectively was the epicenter of the explosion.

^^^Yes. This is supported by the fact that the 8 tails directly states he is using his full power, so this would be a logical conclusion as to why the blast appeared smaller.

 

[GodTongue5280]

And, I'd just like to point out, that this thread is just about characters that should scale to the Bijuu. If you want to revise the bijuu scaling, make a different thread.

 

[Damage3245]

This whole argument seems to me like trying to upgrade Naruto to High 6-A because he cut the Juubi's arms apart, or 5-B because he cut the Shinju in half.

Durability of the Tailed Beasts is inconsistent.

 

[NoodIes67]

Kcm 2 naruto is a perfect jinchuriki of the 9 tails how is that inconsistent?