Narnia: Aslan Revision

[InfiniteSped]

Noticed a few things that didn't seem to add up in Asla's profile.

So, his speed is listed as omnipresent, and he has type 9 Immortality due to this quote, apparently:

Are are you there too, Sir?" said Edmund. "I am," said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name"

That's Aslan telling Edmund that he also exist on Earth, as Jesus, obviously. The idea is that he exists in all worlds (universes) simutaneously. Now, even if he exists in all worlds at once, that doesn't mean he's omnipresent in those places, sounds more like type 3 Acausality to me.

But the problem is, he doesn't necessarily exist in all of them at once. He can travel through universes, so his different names around the multiverse can just be the one Aslan going around creating/destroying/taking care of those worlds.

At the end of The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, he leaves Narnia, and is mentioned that he has other countries to take care of, so it's unlikely he just exist in all universes at once if he has to leave Narnia to care of other worlds.

His type 9 Immortality apparently comes from the idea that there is a "true" Aslan in Aslan's Country, and that you need to kill him to get rid of Aslan for real, all his appearances in the regular worlds being just avatars. I don't see any evidence for that in the profile, and it all seems to rely on him existing in all the worlds at once.

So, those two things should prob be removed. Don't know what his speed should be, probably Unknown.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Bump

 

[InfiniteSped]

bump?

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Try inviting the Supporters of The Chronicles of Narnia

Yeah, those are pretty wonky and need more details

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's been ages since I read the books, but he is always watching over all worlds even if he isn't physically present. I'm pretty sure he's still Omnipresent in spirit though.

 

[InfiniteSped]

It's been ages since I read the books, but he is always watching over all worlds even if he isn't physically present. I'm pretty sure he's still Omnipresent in spirit though.

That would be Omniscience instead, no?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Omniscience is literally knowing everything. Being present in all time and space is still Omnipresence to some extent. There is such a thing as Nigh-Omnipresent also.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Some sort of Cosmic Awareness, then? He left Narnia to care of other worlds, so while he can know of things happening around the multiverse, he isn't necessarily everywhere at once.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there something within the books that directly supports omnipresence?

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2010535

Here is the original CRT where Type 9 was accepted. Cosmic Awareness was also discussed there, it should be on his profile

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that cosmic awareness should probably be added then.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Is there something within the books that directly supports omnipresence?

From what I can tell, it's just that quote of him being on Earth as well, as Jesus. The thing is, we know that he travels through the multiverse, and that he can change forms at will, so his different names in other worlds are likely just this one Aslan, not many avatars existing at once.

He leaves Narnia to care of other countries (countries, in this context, being other universes):

https://imgur.com/a/0Atmmi6

And apparently he hadn't been in Narnia for a while before the first book:

https://imgur.com/a/cVj9ot5

That is also the only thing supporting type 9 immortality, I think. Both should really be removed, and Cosmic Awareness is already on his profile

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Does this need more staff approval for the changes to be made?

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait for Medeus and Crimson Azoth to see what they think.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Okay

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, as I said, while his physical avatars may not be omnipresent, his spiritual self is omnipresent across all worlds. Aslan and the Emperor over the Seas are based on God the Son and God the Father respectively; (Though, I don't think Narnia has an equivalent for Holy Spirit). But it kind of needs to point out that if this is true, while Aslan is described as being the true Son of The Emperor over the Seas, they are also at the same time one in the same. Although, as mentioned above; I don't have the best memory of the books so unsure if Narnia quite perceives them that way. But I will say given that C.S. Lewis was a legit Christian, he does portray the idea Christian God a bit more accurately than other examples.

And he also does seem perceive time and space differently. He does seem transcend time and perceive time as a spatial dimension given that the different worlds are clearly different timelines. Example was the Pevensies spending time in Narnia for 17 years, but when the returned to their real world; their age reversed and they went back as if not a single second in time has passed. And same with the 1st and second books; although only 1 year passed in the real world, 1300 years passed in Narnia. In which Aslan does appear to be well aware of this and when he talks to the Pevensie children, he acts as if they met yesterday.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am not sure if we can base an omnipresence entry for Aslan on Jesus and the Bible though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Obviously we won't go that far, but it is literally stated he exists across many worlds. But I do think he qualifies as having higher dimensional existence based on the examples shown in the book I mentioned. This includes not considering milenia as being a long time or that it's impossible for him to be late or early. Though, I suppose it could be changed to Nigh-Omnipresence, but I want to hear Crimson's thoughts.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Is that stated anywhere though? Being aware of things that happen around the multiverse doesn't mean he's omnipresent across it, Cosmic Awareness could cover that.

We don't really scale characters to real world religions, 1-A Ergenverse was initially denied because we couldn't use the religious Dao explanation.

Regardless, that doesn't seem to be how Narnia treats it, since Aslan was still limited by the Emperor's magic, and they overall just seemed to be treated as separate entities:

https://imgur.com/a/vJnDqQE

https://imgur.com/a/R5zaQWh

Narnia and Earth having a different timeline just mean they're different universes, no? That seems to just be regular stuff for tier 2 characters

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I never used real world religion as in example for tierings, but I did look at Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea's profile which mentions that Wood between Worlds was a Shadow in Aslan's country. Also got to go to work soon.

 

[InfiniteSped]

The regular worlds are the "shadows" of the worlds in Aslan's Country, called Shadowlands iirc, and the Wood Betwen Worlds is the place with the portals to all the worlds. That could make Aslan's Country higher dimensional, but I don't think it's ever said that Aslan created the place, we just know he created the worlds in the Shadowlands.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that higher dimensions or qualitatively superior higher realms of existence were mentioned for Aslan in the Narnia books.

 

[InfiniteSped]

His country has the "true" versions of all the worlds, and those versions lead to other versions that are even greater, who lead to other versions, and it goes on and on presumably infinitely.

Like infinite universes stacked on top of each other, that's why the Emperor is 2-A now, I think. It's never said that Aslan helped create the place though, afaik.

Edit: Actually, he seems to be High 2-A to Low 1-C. Not sure why though

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the members listed in The Chronicles of Narnia page to comment here.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Narnia and Earth having a different timeline just mean they're different universes, no? That seems to just be regular stuff for tier 2 characters

The thing that makes this different is that the ratio of "Earth time" to "Narnia time" is constantly changing, slowing down and speeding up. No two books have the same ratio

 

[InfiniteSped]

Being two different timelines, I don't see why a consistent ratio would be needed. Even then, he can just send them directly to the time he wants them to be.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Because as far as I understand it, time should be constant, and excepting areas of extreme gravitational pressure or speed, it is impossible to increase or decrease the flow of time. Narnain time can be set at a specific speed, that's fine by me. It can even be different from normal Earth time speed, that's still fine. But when time in the two areas appears to speed up or slow down relative to one another, that's when I feel outside influence has been involved.

To give my thoughts on everything else:

Type 9 I agree can go. It was borderline at best and I made that CRT when I was still new to the wiki and didn't understand how immortality types still worked.

Omnipresence, or at the very least Nigh-Omnipresence has to stay. More in my next comment.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

I've always understood the Aslan lion in the books as more of an avatar of whatever being is Jesus in our world and Aslan in theirs. The last line of The Last Battle appears to confirm this for me.

And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them
	~ The Last Battle - Chapter 16​

This has been taken that Aslan turns into Jesus. I agree with this theory in part. I do not believe that he turned into our interpretation of Jesus Christ the prophet as the hyper-descriptive nature of The Last Battle (And TCoN in general) would have lead to a description of Aslan's transformation. Which we don't get.

This is the being which the children were talking to was whatever is beyond the avatars of Jesus and Aslan.

It's also pretty well accepted that whatever being is Aslan created the "Shadowlands", which are all accessed from The Wood Between The Worlds. While never stated as infinite, every quote about the Wood seems to imply that.

It was the quietest wood you could possibly imagine. There were no birds, no insects, no animals, and no wind. You could almost feel the trees growing. The pool he had just got out of was not the only pool. There were dozens of others - a pool every few yards as far as his eyes could reach
	~ The Magican's Nephew - Chapter 3​

It is important to note here that every pool is another universe and Aslan created and manages every one.

For there were any number of pools in the wood
	~ The Magican's Nephew - Chapter 3​

And if one can imagine that there are so many universes within The Wood Between The Worlds, it seems almost impossible to imagine that Aslan can pass between each one and manage them all within a normal amount of time. Especially as it's been said that time flows differently in each universe. Omnipresence for Aslan is less a definite statement and more an interpretation of Aslan's relationship with all the universes in the "Narniaverse"

 

[InfiniteSped]

Aslan likely is just the form he takes when in Narnia, or dealing with Narnia things. That doesn't mean him and Jesus are some different being, or avatar, of a true Aslan though. Like I said, he can just travel through the worlds in different forms, just shapeshifting.

I don't see how those quotes imply infinite universes at all, the first one just says there are dozens, and prob more beyond what he can see, doesn't mean there are infinite. He did likely create them all, but probably just one at a time.

Even if we assume there are thousands (even that might be a stretch), they all have different timelines, so going from one to the other shouldn't be an issue. He can start on Earth, go to Narnia for 100 years, then go back to Earth and not even a minute might have passed. He's got all the time in the world, literally.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Crimson Azoth is making sense here; and it doesn't quite say infinite, but I did here there are statements about their existing countless worlds individual worlds that contain countless worlds. And I do still agree that at the very least, Nigh-Omnipresent should stay.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Aslan likely is just the form he takes when in Narnia, or dealing with Narnia things. That doesn't mean him and Jesus are some different being, or avatar, of a true Aslan though. Like I said, he can just travel through the worlds in different forms, just shapeshifting.

You don't address my primary point. Aslan is him in Narnia, Jesus is him on Earth. The Last Battle even shows how to treat those forms. That is how he appears in the Shadowlands. In the "Real England" (his country), that is the being that we know as Aslan. The Lion is to that form what the Shadowlands is to his country.

I don't see how those quotes imply infinite universes at all, the first one just says there are dozens, and prob more beyond what he can see, doesn't mean there are infinite. He did likely create them all, but probably just one at a time.

It doesn't explicitly state infinite but gets about as close to it as you can get. Far as the eye can see doesn't imply dozens, it implies hundreds when you consider that there is a pool every few yards. And it was stated that if Polly and Diggory lost their pool, they'd never find it again.

They stared at each other and turned quite white as they realized the dreadful thing that Digory had just been going to do. For there were any number of pools in the wood, and the pools were all alike and the trees were all alike, so that if they had once left behind the pool that led to our own world without making some sort of landmark, the chances would have been a hundred to one against their ever finding it agai
	~ The Magician's Nephew - Chapter 3​

Even if we assume there are thousands (even that might be a stretch), they all have different timelines, so going from one to the other shouldn't be an issue. He can start on Earth, go to Narnia for 100 years, then go back to Earth and not even a minute might have passed. He's got all the time in the world, literally.

And therein lies the problem. He spends a minute on Earth, years have passed in Narnia. Even assuming hundreds of pools/universes, he spends any amount of time in them, and he allows decades and centuries to pass in Narnia. And that's assuming that there aren't worlds and universes with timestreams faster than Narnia and slower than Earth's. Long and the short of it is that far from having all the time in the world, Aslan actually has no time at all

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Crimson Azoth seems to make sense.

 

[InfiniteSped]

You don't address my primary point. Aslan is him in Narnia, Jesus is him on Earth. The Last Battle even shows how to treat those forms. That is how he appears in the Shadowlands. In the "Real England" (his country), that is the being that we know as Aslan. The Lion is to that form what the Shadowlands is to his country.

I did address it: shapeshifting. He's in Narnia as a lion, goes to Earth as a human, then turns either into Jesus or whatever his original form is, in the last book.

I don't see how the Real Country/Shadowlands comparison can be made when Aslan straight up changes form in front of them. There isn't one "True" Aslan that exists as a separate entity to his forms in the other worlds, at least there isn't any real proof to it. It's basically this.

While we know that he can shapeshift, travel through worlds, and often leaves Narnia to take care of other countries. There being just one Aslan takes way less assumptions.

It doesn't explicitly state infinite but gets about as close to it as you can get. Far as the eye can see doesn't imply dozens, it implies hundreds when you consider that there is a pool every few yards. And it was stated that if Polly and Diggory lost their pool, they'd never find it again

As close as it can get, really? "There are dozens of pools we can see, probably more beyond" equals "There's an infinite number of pools"?

They straight up say they can see dozens, and, sure, there are more beyond what they can see. But getting that information and somehow extrapolating it to mean there's an infinite number of pools is just unreasonable.

And they don't say they'd never find their pool again, they say there's an 100 to 1 chance they would find it again, since they all look exactly the same, and they were planning to just jump on a random one.

And therein lies the problem. He spends a minute on Earth, years have passed in Narnia. Even assuming hundreds of pools/universes, he spends any amount of time in them, and he allows decades and centuries to pass in Narnia. And that's assuming that there aren't worlds and universes with timestreams faster than Narnia and slower than Earth's. Long and the short of it is that far from having all the time in the world, Aslan actually has no time at all

You said yourself, the time ratios vary. He can either control them somehow, or just jump at any point in time he wishes to.