Aslan 1-B Downgrade

[LuciferX]

Recently, I saw Aslan got upgraded to 1-A and I have several issues with that.

"I see," she said. "This is still Narnia, and more real and more beautiful then the Narnia down below, just as it was more real and more beautiful than the Narnia outside the stable door! I see... world within world, Narnia within Narnia..."

Narnia which exist above than narnia down below, is just more real and beautiful. If it's more real, it means lower country still real. statement seems figurative.

We don't really know which is the equiverse here, implied new narnia to be the baseline layer, old narnia and onion layers exist in a lower scale.

furthermore, it said all countries are REAL.

"That is easy," said Mr Tumnus. "That country and this country - all the real countries - are only spurs jutting out from the great mountains of Aslan. We have only to walk along the ridge, upward and inward, till it joins on. And listen! There is King Frank's horn: we must all go up."

Here, it stated, every chapter is better than one before. but in fact, it is referring to thier adventures if you read the whole paragraph. it has nothing to do with Narnia within Narnia thing.

And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this is the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read; which goes on forever; in which every chapter is better than the one before.

Conclusion: Aslan should downgrade to 1-B again.

Edit: As rules has been changed now, it is quite evident that justification for 1-A is not sufficient.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?​

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarily large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

 

[LuciferX]

Bump

 

[Quantu]

Heads up: try not to bump a thread until generally at least 8 hours have passed from the last comment.

 

[Everything12]

Narnia which exist above than narnia down below, is just more real and beautiful. If it's more real, it means lower country still real. It must be fiction if it's an actual r>f hierarchy.

it just similar to how worlds exist inside atoms in dc and marvel. worlds within worlds, which exist in a lower scale.

furthermore, it said all countries are REAL.

It must be fiction in relation to the higher reality. If the higher world is more real, than that means the lower world is less real than it, akin to how fiction is less real than reality.

In Reality-fiction relationships, both must be real in some form, it's just one is more real than the other.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree, we literally just went over this in great detail.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Emperor Over the Sea at least was agreed to be 1-B to High 1-B at minimum. Real World and Narnia are infinisimal compared to Wood Between Worlds which is Low 1-C. That is just one of many worlds next to others contained in a much larger world, and that one also is one of many 6-D multiverses inside a 7-D multiverse and the list goes one for each chapter until we eventually reach Aslan's Country being much larger than all of that. And it is stated there are Infinite Chapters.

Also, gotta go to work now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Ogbunabali was the one who did the research for the 1-A stuff. And as for the 1-B to High 1-B stuff, Ultima Reality did that long before that, but he is burned out from debating Tier 1 stuff hence why he stepped down as a Consultant and wishes to only make threads for verses he's interested in. But maybe Og might comment.

 

[ShivaShakti]

How?

size doesn't make low 1-C. there should be r>f transcendence between them. It's like universes exist within atoms in DC and Marvel.

Evidence?

Chapter's being better than previous one,is referring to thier adventures, it has nothing to do with it.

goes on forever=/=infinite

Size disparity actually does qualify for higher tiers.

You can't exactly be "Countably" larger than an object of infinite size, especially if the object is described being infinitesimal in comparison.

 

[LuciferX]

Bump

 

[ShivaShakti]

It doesn't described as infinitesimal, however, it doesn't mean there is a reality fiction difference bet them.

Also they could be lower lands similar to how universes can exist within atoms in Marvel. (infinitesimal in comparison to main world also)

"They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc."

This is an excerpt from the tiering system FAQ. I'm afraid you are simply wrong.

 

[Robo432343]

all the 1-A stuff was explained here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/narnia-overhaul.145892/

 

[ShivaShakti]

there is no proof hierarchy is infinite in the first place. and if so, that realiy fiction hierarchy could exist lower than 3D scale, like how universes which exist within atoms exist as a dream hierarchy but in a lower scale than human world. there is no proof whether it exist parallely to main world inorder to assume they are actual higher layers.

"Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on forever: in which every chapter is better than the one before."

It's stated very clearly to be endless, and everything else implies that the worlds beyond Narnia, and Aslan's country are transcendental planes of reality.

 

[Robo432343]

it doesn't really...

 

[Lewis]

Bruh.

 

[Ren1999]

size doesn't make low 1-C. there should be r>f transcendence between them. It's like universes exist within atoms in DC and Marvel.

do you think only R>f is tier 1 compliant, size can also be according to the standard on this wiki depending on the context, and also don't try to compare cosmology Narnia and marvel I don't see any similarity in both verses

 

[LuciferX]

"Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on forever: in which every chapter is better than the one before."

It's stated very clearly to be endless, and everything else implies that the worlds beyond Narnia, and Aslan's country are transcendental planes of reality.

It refers to thier adventures with aslan, not to countries.

 

[Ren1999]

There is. It's similar to how universes exist within atoms. Worlds within Worlds

that doesn't answer my question, do you think only R>f is tier 1 qualified?

 

[LuciferX]

that doesn't answer my question, do you think only R>f is tier 1 qualified?

Why would I answer that?

 

[Ren1999]

Why would I answer that?

because I asked, is there something wrong with my question?

 

[LuciferX]

because I asked, is there something wrong with my question?

Nope. I made this to downgrade aslan, not to answer your questions.

 

[Ren1999]

Nope. I made this to downgrade aslan, not to answer your questions

because my question, has something to do with this thread. don't try to avoid my question

 

[LuciferX]

because my question, has something to do with this thread. don't try to avoid my question

As I know, yes. and there is other way to get to 1-A without having a inf r>f hierarchy.

I think, it is essential to prove r>f difference in order to assume, higher dimensions are superior to lower ones.

 

[AKUTO123]

As I know, yes. and there is other way to get to 1-A without having a inf r>f hierarchy.

I think, it is essential to prove r>f difference in order to assume, higher dimensions are superior to lower ones.

Not always. İf there is extra cordinate you have higher dimensionalty. There is infinite dimensons and it is has higher and extra cordinate must be High 1B

 

[LuciferX]

Not always. İf there is extra cordinate you have higher dimensionalty. There is infinite dimensons and it is has higher and extra cordinate must be High 1B

I think so

 

[Fixxed]

Yeah not agree with this

"More real" it self is enough proof for higher existance

Plus it have statement about plato's theory of form, that the lower world is just a shadow from higher world. It clear the meaning about "more real" in this. So it very very not make sense for downgrade it to 3A

“The Eagle is right,” said the Lord Digory. “Listen, Peter. When Aslan said you could never go back to Narnia, he meant the Narnia you were thinking of. But that was not the real Narnia. That had a beginning and an end. It was only a shadow or a copy of the real Narnia which has always been here and always will be here: just as our own world, England and all, is only a shadow or copy of something in Aslan’s real world. You need not mourn over Narnia, Lucy. All of the old Narnia that mattered, all the dear creatures, have been drawn into the real Narnia through the Door. And of course it is different; as different as a real thing is from a shadow or as waking life is from a dream.” His voice stirred everyone like a trumpet as he spoke these words: but when he added under his breath “It’s all in Plato, all in Plato: bless me, what do they teach them at these schools!” the older ones laughed. It was so exactly like the sort of thing they had heard him say long ago in that other world where his beard was gray instead of golden. He knew why they were laughing and joined in the laugh himself. But very quickly they all became grave again: for, as you know, there is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes.
It is as hard to explain how this sunlit land was different from the old Narnia as it would be to tell you how the fruits of that country taste. Perhaps you will get some idea of it if you think like this. You may have been in a room in which there was a window that looked out on a lovely bay of the sea or a green valley that wound away among mountains. And in the wall of that room opposite to the window there may have been a looking-glass. And as you turned away from the window you suddenly caught sight of that sea or that valley, all over again, in the looking-glass. And the sea in the mirror, or the valley in the mirror, were in one sense just the same as the real ones: yet at the same time they were somehow different —deeper, more wonderful, more like places in a story: in a story you have never heard but very much want to know. The difference between the old Narnia and the new Narnia was like that. The new one was a deeper country: every rock and flower and blade of grass looked as if it meant more. I can’t describe it any better than that: if you ever get there you will know what I mean.

 

[LuciferX]

Yeah not agree with this

"More real" it self is enough proof for higher existance

Plus it have statement about plato's theory of form, that the lower world is just a shadow from higher world. It clear the meaning about "more real" in this. So it very very not make sense for downgrade it to 3A

Then you need to prove those narnia lands exist parallely or above main world. since it could exist in a lower scale than man's universe like cosmos in atoms (in marvel, i explained above)

and it's not infinite. I debunked "goes on forever" scan.

 

[Fixxed]

Then you need to prove those narnia lands exist parallely or above main world. since it could exist in a lower scale than man's universe like cosmos in atoms (in marvel, i explained above)

and it's not infinite. I debunked "goes on forever" scan.

Prove what??? The scan literally say more real and just a shadow, that is the proof, you want what for proof??
Atom is not infinitesimall by default, so it clear if the world just like atom it not necessary be higher existance, because not more real by default

We talking about 1A here, if the character is completely above the dimensional structure, than he can be 1A. No matter if the structure is have infinite layer of reality/dimension or no. So is infinite or no is doesnt matter

 

[LuciferX]

Prove what??? The scan literally say more real and just a shadow, that is the proof, you want what for proof??
Atom is not infinitesimall by default, so it clear if the world just like atom it not necessary be higher existance, because not more real by default

Proof whether those lands exist as normal scale as main world or higher.

We talking about 1A here, if the character is completely above the dimensional structure, than he can be 1A. No matter if the structure is have infinite layer of reality/dimension or no. So is infinite or no is doesnt matter

just by aslan's country exist above the real countries doesn't mean he is above d structure.

Narnias are just lands/countries,not even universes

 

[Fixxed]

Proof whether those lands exist as normal scale as main world or higher.

Ahh??? For what??? We already have proof that the narnia above is more real than lower narnia, we have feats that lower narnia just a shadow from the higher narnia. So what proof you want???

just by aslan's country exist above the real countries doesn't mean he is above d structure.

Yeah because you even not agree if the everending story is mean layer of reality. If we consider it as layer of reality, then aslan's country is above the everending layer of reality (well its above the mountain, and the mountain is infinitely above the layer), its mean 1A. The context in here is to get 1A is no need infinite layer (even though in narnia's context its infinite)

Narnias are just lands/countries,not even universes

Yeah but in tiering system view it like fiction or being more real than it can have higher existance. No need for prove it a universe

 

[LuciferX]

Ahh??? For what??? We already have proof that the narnia above is more real than lower narnia, we have feats that lower narnia just a shadow from the higher narnia. So what proof you want???

I know. that's not the point. Read it again.

Yeah because you even not agree if the everending story is mean layer of reality. If we consider it as layer of reality, then aslan's country is above the everending layer of reality (well its above the mountain, and the mountain is infinitely above the layer), its mean 1A. The context in here is to get 1A is no need infinite layer (even though in narnia's context its infinite)

It only adds another layer. I disagree with its reasoning. The same req used to scale shinza gods to outer and debunked later. This reasoning has lot of flaws.

Yeah but in tiering system view it like fiction or being more real than it can have higher existance. No need for prove it a universe

True though.

 

[Fixxed]

I know. that's not the point. Read it again.

No, your point is compare narnia context to marvel context. That is totaly different, narnia have R>F superiority, and marvel just have world in atom that is not will get higher existance by default

It only adds another layer. I disagree with its reasoning. The same req used to scale shinza gods to outer and debunked later. This reasoning has lot of flaws.

Are you even read the CRT??? The mountain of aslan is describe as tower higher than the world (layer), no matter you go up, you cant reach the top, it is never ending tower, its why the mountain is just accept as low 1A because that just add more layer. And the top of the mountain is aslan's country, is above the mountain it self. No matter you add more layer (go up) you cant reach the top, aslan's country is already completely above the layer, it above the infinite tower of mountain, yeah its also mean higher infinite and qualitative superiority to the layer or dimensional structure it self

True though.

So what your problem??? If narnia above is more real than narnia below, then its mean higher existance

 

[LuciferX]

No, your point is compare narnia context to marvel context. That is totaly different, narnia have R>F superiority, and marvel just have world in atom that is not will get higher existance by default

So the point is narnia can also exist like this. even children can view the lower narnia lands which imply its similar to atom case.

Are you even read the CRT??? The mountain of aslan is describe as tower higher than the world (layer), no matter you go up, you cant reach the top, it is never ending tower, its why the mountain is just accept as low 1A because that just add more layer. And the top of the mountain is aslan's country, is above the mountain it self. No matter you add more layer (go up) you cant reach the top, aslan's country is already completely above the layer, it above the infinite tower of mountain, yeah its also mean higher infinite and qualitative superiority to the layer or dimensional structure it self

It can be granted if he transcend the multiverse entirely, it's not a multiverse. just couple of lands with r>f hierarchy.

So what your problem??? If narnia above is more real than narnia below, then its mean higher existance

Yeah. I agreed with that. but r>f hierarchies could exist lower than 3d scale, if you can prove those countries exist as parallely to main universe or higher scale, then I can agree with you.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Yeah, gonna disagree with this thread for the reasons above.

 

[Mp_hj]

I haven't been involved in this debate till now so forgive me if I'm doing this wrong. Plus I'm generally new so I don't know if this will help much. But I believe C.S. Lewis intended Aslan to outright be an incarnate divine Jesus Christ himself.

If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair represents Despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, ‘What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?’ This is not allegory at all.

The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume III, pp. 1004-1005. Quoted in P.H. Brazier, C.S. Lewis--On the Christ of a Religious Economy, 3.1: I. Creation and Sub-Creation (Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2013), p. 134.

Now, I don't know how much out-of-book author statements in personal letters count towards canon. I'm checking our wiki's page for Canon and it's not telling me much on that specific topic. Meanwhile the VS Battles Glossary says "Word of God" statements are discarded when it contradicts canon, and I don't believe this statement contradicts canon here.

If it does count, given that C.S. Lewis was a trinitarian Christian, then Aslan (at his maximum power) would be the supreme being - Well, actually a fictionalization of the supreme being to be exact. Aslan would have a relationship with the Narnia-verse analagous to the orthodox Christian perception of God's relationship with the real world. Make of that what you will.

 

[Fixxed]

just couple of lands with r>f hierarchy.

ahh...... yeah....

So the point is narnia can also exist like this. even children can view the lower narnia lands which imply its similar to atom case.

So you mean the higher narnia cant have higher existance bacause the children can see the lower narnia from higher narnia, so it just will like human see atom??

It can be granted if he transcend the multiverse entirely, it's not a multiverse. just couple of lands with r>f hierarchy.

Bruh just transcended alone it self not enough for get 1A rating. Aslan's country is higher infinite and qualitative superior to the layer of reality it self

Yeah. I agreed with that. but r>f hierarchies could exist lower than 3d scale, if you can prove those countries exist as parallely to main universe or higher scale, then I can agree with you.

So you mean, the lower narnia is just 2D and the higher narnia will be 3D because R>F??? (even though it mean, its the narnia that the author first introduced, and the narnia that we see in the film). And are you forget about neverending story?? Lets say the lower narnia is just 2D, and then the higher narnia is 3D, it will go on until infinite (4D, 5D...). So it not change anything at all

 

[LuciferX]

ahh...... yeah....

So you mean the higher narnia cant have higher existance bacause the children can see the lower narnia from higher narnia, so it just will like human see atom??

Bruh just transcended alone it self not enough for get 1A rating. Aslan's country is higher infinite and qualitative superior to the layer of reality it self

Well. but vsbw faq says it has to be a multiverse, this case, just multiple lands though. that's the probelm. kinda NLF

So you mean, the lower narnia is just 2D and the higher narnia will be 3D because R>F??? (even though it mean, its the narnia that the author first introduced, and the narnia that we see in the film). And are you forget about neverending story?? Lets say the lower narnia is just 2D, and then the higher narnia is 3D, it will go on until infinite (4D, 5D...). So it not change anything at all

Universes within atoms have a 3d existence, but exist in a lower scale than 3d man's universe and it also has a dream hierarchy and it doesn't make higher worlds 4d,5d cuz still all unis exist within atoms. it is hard to explain, but you get my point a bit.

 

[Fixxed]

Well. but vsbw faq says it has to be a multiverse, this case, just multiple lands though. that's the probelm. kinda NLF

How can be it just multiverse, when the feats it self is proving about R>F. And where you get R>F is just multiverse in tier faq??

Universes within atoms have a 3d existence, but exist in a lower scale than 3d man's universe and it also has a dream hierarchy and it doesn't make higher worlds 4d,5d cuz still all unis exist within atoms. it is hard to explain, but you get my point a bit.

Bruh if universe see lower universe just like atom, it will not be higher existance. But in narnia case higher world see the lower world just like shadow, not real, the different is not just like little particle compare to us, the different is real and not real (fiction)

So it false equivalence to compare the context of narnia (R>F) to the marvel context (that just universe within atom)

 

[LuciferX]

Bruh if universe see lower universe just like atom, it will not be higher existance. But in narnia case higher world see the lower world just like shadow, not real, the different is not just like little particle compare to us, the different is real and not real (fiction)

So it false equivalence to compare the context of narnia (R>F) to the marvel context (that just universe within atom)

hierarchy could go downwards like atoms case,that's what I meant basically.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Recently, I saw Aslan got upgraded to 1-A and I have several issues with that.





furthermore, it said all countries are REAL.

It meant that all countries have a "real" counterpart.

 

[LuciferX]

It meant that all countries have a "real" counterpart.

What? wdym by counterpart?