Nanatsu no Taizai - Rhitta Speed

[Alakabamm]

So...in the latest NNT chapter, 170, we see that Escanor's Sacred Treasure can be called to him much like Thor does to Mjolnir. I initially thought that he had left his axe at mountains near the town of Raven e.g. some place in the country. However, look at this scan:

http://img.***********.com/cdn/manga/99/3348/06.png

Escanor is pretty clearly pointing his fingers at the moo...and we don't see the area around the axe either. He might store his axe on the moon.

Furthermore, since he was in free fall, we can get a relatively decent time span for the travel as well. This would mean a sick powerup for Escanor if it was true, since his axe would have to go a noticeable fraction of lightspeed to reach there in freefall time.

Still, its probably best to wait until Nakaba confirms it.

 

[KamiYasha]

Lightspeed Escanor confirmed? xD

 

[Antvasima]

Well, just because the axe can fly that swiftly, does not automatically mean that Escanor can move at equal speed. Or so I think anyway.

 

[LordAizenSama]

What Ant said.

 

[Alakabamm]

Ah, yea, I'm aware that it might not scale. That's why it is in general rather than content revision, along with the fact that moon isn't confirmed yet. Also, a couple things:

A) I wouldn't ever advocate for this to be movement speed, at most reaction speed. However, I suppose it depends on how we currently treat Thor and his hammer In this case, Escanor caught it.

B) Even if we can't use it for speed, what we can do is calc the kinetic energy behind it, which is actually rather substantial because a) it had to go a fraction of light speed and b) it weighs a lot (Meliodas/Galan can't even lift it). Even using the weight of a regular large battleaxe, I'm pretty sure we'd get city level at a minimum.

c) It also begs the question of how did it get up there. Does he throw it? Does he actually leap to the moon to hide from the sun? It's pretty unclear.

Of course, this all depends on whether or not it actually was on the moon.

 

[KamiYasha]

I'm having a hard time with the Power level of this latest chapter.

 

[Alakabamm]

You mean the moon thing or how Escanor's power level was amped?

Well, he was at Galan's level when he was pseudo-sun and amped it with Rhitta to beat two commandments. We'll know just how much he can amp when we see Estarossa's power level as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he likely simply called it to automatically travel to his hand, much like Thor does.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i calced it at narutoforums and some other forums and another user made the calc results then public

the speed in itself is not hard to gauge

just that it doesnt scale to anyone as of yet. the argument that escanor had to move his arm hasn convinced me for a reaction feat

just wait and see how things play out

 

[RavenSupreme]

oh btw: we cant get KE as well since we dont calc KE from relativistic speeds

 

[Alakabamm]

You can calc KE with a relativistic KE calculator, like the one found on WolframAlpha. We can't calc FTL feats, not relativistic ones.

As for the speed, we can assume a couple seconds from Gowther's statement or we can just use freefall. Freefall is obviously more complicated and a smaller timeframe as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

well to me mach 100k (assuming 10 seconds which is already a very low-end) is a high relativistic speed. still away from LS but still i would not like to calc it

if we use any smaller timeframe via freefall or other things the result will just be an even higher mach number, furthermore questioning the legitimacy of a KE calc

but either way - the speed is very nice. just that it doesnt scale to anyone as of now

the fastest thing in the nnt verse? - "its an axe..."

 

[Alakabamm]

It would be very close to the energy gotten from the regular KE equation so I respectfully disagree

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk wrote a page for us about this sort of situation here: Kinetic Energy feats

 

[RavenSupreme]

eh its nothing i really think much about. to me "high relativistic" starts at mach 100k, meaning i interpret our rules which forbid these kinds of KE calcs from mach 100k upwards

we dont have an actual number specified from which point we simply no longer calc KE feats aside from LS.

maybe we need one?

edit: ant, you think we should specific "high relativistic" with an actual number?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, possibly. The intention between the wording is when the speed is sufficiently close to lightspeed to significantly diverge from the standard kinetic energy equation.

You can discuss it with DontTalk if you wish.

 

[Alakabamm]

Yea, we need one.

However, if you actually plug in the mach 100k, you will see that a relativistic calculator returns a value twice as small as a newtonian KE calculation. So this is not a high relativistic number and the energy actually decreases once we consider the speed of light.

IMO, we should cut off relativistic calculations at the point where it is 2x the newtonian value or more.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alakabamm That seems like a reasonable suggestion, yes.

@RavenSupreme What do you think about this?

 

[RavenSupreme]

seems fair and makes things easy to use for people. preventing discussions like the one we just had where people go of their own interpretation (like i did)

 

[Alakabamm]

Solving the relativistic KE equation for 2mv^2, I get that V=0.9306c

Hence, we should cut off around there.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems reasonable then. Should I change it now, or wait for DontTalk to okay it first?

 

[Alakabamm]

Hmm, Raven, does NNT have any good lifting feats? We can sort of ballpark Rhitta's weight from there, assuming it doesn't have some sort of trait like "only the proudest can wield this axe" or "it requires light energy to lift"

Off the top of my head, I can think of Galan's boulders, maybe.

 

[Alakabamm]

That seems reasonable then. Should I change it now, or wait for DontTalk to okay it first?

Yea, to check my work at least. It seems like a high cutoff, but given that it approaches infinity only near the speed of light, it may be reasonable.

 

[RavenSupreme]

galans boulders he played golf with? that will be underwhelming....boulders were not even half the size of janko. and shes a midget


dianes gideon is 998 kg tho

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask him about it.

 

[Alakabamm]

Hmm, yes, Galan did smack Diane with her own weapon and he was unable to fully lift Rhitta as well.

Using Gideon's weight and the relativistic KE value, absorbing the KE of Rhitta would be a minimum of 7.4497 x 10^17 Joules or mountain level. He did it pretty casually too and at Galan's power level.

I'd say that's a decent bit feat.

 

[DontTalk]

To the relativistic KE thing:

General question is what exactly we would do with the remaining 7%. I don't agree with using Newtonian equations out of the same reasons we don't use KE for FTL stuff. Leaving them out due to giving too high values seems unfair/arbitrary, given that there isn't such a natural limit like for lightspeed.

So that is a bit of a problem. Maybe we could change the rule to:

No KE for speeds greater than the speed of light and if Relativistic KE > 2* Newtonian KE take 2*newtonian KE as value instead to avoid near infinite KE for very close to lightspeed feats?

In any case given that the 2 times value doesn't result from a specific argument, but is arbitrarily chosen, maybe we should hold a public vote or something on the fitting value so that community agreement is established?

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, yea, I just used double because it is a fairly agreeable value IMO. We could easily use any other value. I'm not sure what the best one to use is TBH.

We should also establish a baseline for what relativistic % must be used with the rel formula.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Maybe. However, the problem is that public voting risks to result in the community selecting that we should accept relativistic KE as it is, or select some much higher value than I am comfortable with as a limiter.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk, Alakabamm, and RavenSupreme:

So, would either of you like to start a thread about where exactly we should draw the line for "High Relativistic" speeds?

If so, do you think thst we should create it in the staff only forum? It seems safer.

In either case, there should preferably be an initial note that the matter of whether or not we should accept any relativistic KE as is, is not up for discussion, only the specific limiter.

 

[DontTalk]

If nobody else does I will take care of it tomorrow. (I write a small exam tomorrow so I have not time to take care of it right now)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So I got some news in regards to this topic.

Looks like the calculation itself was debunked due to the image on the bottom left corner looking like a field instead of the moon's surface (there are lines drawn on the surface with bushes on top of it). Looks like the whole moon thing has been debunked.


However, the calculation can still be salvaged; remember that Meliodas can't even lift the axe at all, and considering Meliodas' lifting strength that is listed on his profile, that axe is ridiculously heavy.

Now we just need to know the where the axe was stuck at and where Escanor is at the moment. Find the distance between the field and Escanor, and find the speed by assuming a timeframe.

Main point: The axe was NOT stuck on the Moon. Escanor pointing his hand at the Moon was solely for dramatic effect.

 

[Alakabamm]

First off, I originally closed this thread because that panel MAY indicate it wasn't on the moon, however:

a) the NF thread is not finished nor in agreement about that point

b) it isn't a very good depiction of trees, if they are trees


So "debunked" is as premature as the calc was.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since DontTalk has replied about the other issue, I think that you can close this thread again if you wish.