My Hero Academia: Vigilante - Number 6 - Speed Downgrade

[Onelixy]

I guess we should discuss this feat more in detail.
Link to the calculation on TheRustyOne's blog.

The feat in question is regarding Number 6 using Overclock to escape from cops -
Vigilante: Boku no Hero Academia Illegals Chapter 35

To me, it seems like every and any bullet could've hit the target near-instantly, but the officers require human reaction speed to actually react to getting hit. This means that the distance crossed by Number 6 is more fairly interpreted by human reaction speed compared to the time a bullet would need to hit the first target. This seems to be the case given we don't see bullets frozen or moving in any of the panels.

This all happens in under a second and isn't picked up on with a security camera. Number 6 takes his time and does several actions, seemingly giddy and casual, which could indicate a low level of Overclock-use compared to higher levels, such as against the full-auto assault rifle, where he's serious and drained quickly.

I'm also aware Rusty has confirmed that I'm correct in my initial assessment, but I want to hear some counterarguments before we may engage in downscaling some of the feats/characters related to this Number 6 feat. The initial discussion began here but took place in the wrong thread.

Pros with my argument:
It seems more in line with the information given by the authors. And number 6 can still be in the range of subsonic to speed of sound at top levels (before transforming). This is mainly addressing movement speed.

Number 6 and AFO confirm Koichi is able to react to the sound of their footsteps. This means the speed of sound is greater than his movement.
This is then further solidified with 6's bullet statement, which indicates they're operating within a lower ballpark than suggested.

Cons with my argument:
Several characters scale to this and are directly mentioned and linked to on Overhaul's page, and so on. Meaning it could change a lot depending on scaling and interactions, while characters who are narrative "speedsters" like Iida still operate far above the speed of sound early in the series.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I was going to make a thread later, since I wanted to also talk about Number 6 other feats in general. The officer feat is without a doubt Number 6 emergency mode, he's moving faster than normally. Him acting "casual" is just his personality and not proof of effort of any kind.

Number 6 is moving faster than they can react, at speeds so fast that they're all frozen and cannot see him. But at no point do we see any bullets frozen in mid air during this scene, and the bullets could've already made contact with the officer at any time. The only time we see the bullets hit anyone is when Number 6 is already done and walking away.

Also the speed of bullets is also in question as well. Since they were using rubber bullets, but they were fired out of actual guns (New Nambu M60). I believe bullet speed depends on the bullet and the type of gun that is used. A rubber bullet would weigh differently than a normal bullet, so the speed would change.

But I don't know by how much.

Note: Number 6 has this calc, which places his speed at 1974.05 m/s (Hypersonic) for dodging bullets.

Using the Overclock multiplier, considering how casual he is I doubt this is an emergency situation. So I'll say he is using his 10X boost here, for low ball sake.

That would put Number 6's base speed at 197 m/s (Subsonic), and his 3X speed at 592 m/s (Supersonic), and his 24X speed at 4737 m/s (Hypersonic+)

I'd like to see if anyone has any issues with this calc.

 

[Onelixy]

I can't engage very well with the rest, but this:

Since they were using rubber bullets, but they were fired out of actual guns (New Nambu M60). I believe bullet speed depends on the bullet and the type of gun that is used. A rubber bullet would weigh differently than a normal bullet, so the speed would change.

We also saw 6 fire out of Tsukauchi's normal gun early in the sequence.

Edit:
I guess I should clarify for some people. I'm Belando on ComicVine and HighOxtane on Spacebattles. MHA is my favorite series, which is also why I have a lot of knowledge about it. I'm not trying to downscale or disrupt anything, but I believe I'm correct about this specific character and scenario and want to defend it.

 

[hippoishungry]

I'd like to see if anyone has any issues with this calc.

the calc uses the old .357 magnum bullet speed instead of the rubber bullet speed

 

[TheRustyOne]

@Onelixy: I noticed you didn't put any tags on this thread, which can make it difficult for people to take notice of this thread.

Note: In terms of the statement, feats will take precedent over any statement. If we calculate a character as being Supersonic or faster, and the calcs are consistent. Than we'll rate those characters as such, regardless of statements such as this. Koichi hearing the sound of his footsteps is meaningless on this site, as such a thing is common in fiction. In reality anyone moving faster than sound would not be able to hear anything, since you'd be moving away from the source of sound faster than it can reach the ears.

Using the sound of moment isn't enough proof to say someone shouldn't be Supersonic or above by itself.

This discussion is meaningless if Number 6 has no Supersonic feats in the first place.

There is no rubber bullet speed, since they vary greatly. And many instances of rubber bullets are fired at similar velocities as live ammunition as well. However we should come a conclusion on what muzzle velocity we use for these guns. As being rubber does indeed change them from a standard round.

 

[Onelixy]

In terms of the statement, feats will take precedent over any statement. If we calculate a character as being Supersonic or faster, and the calcs are consistent. Than we'll rate those characters as such, regardless of statements such as this. Koichi hearing the sound of his footsteps is meaningless on this site, as such a thing is common in fiction. In reality anyone moving faster than sound would not be able to hear anything, since you'd be moving away from the source of sound faster than it can reach the ears.

Using the sound of moment isn't enough proof to say someone shouldn't be Supersonic or above by itself.

This is fair. Also, If you think the lack of tags limits the thread, let's close it and start a new one when you're ready. I'm in no rush.
I don't think Koichi's response to sound is irrelevant until we establish that he actually operates above the speed of sound. That's what I got.

 

[Damage3245]

I've added tags in.

 

[Alancaliber]

@Onelixy: I noticed you didn't put any tags on this thread, which can make it difficult for people to take notice of this thread.

Note: In terms of the statement, feats will take precedent over any statement. If we calculate a character as being Supersonic or faster, and the calcs are consistent. Than we'll rate those characters as such, regardless of statements such as this. Koichi hearing the sound of his footsteps is meaningless on this site, as such a thing is common in fiction. In reality anyone moving faster than sound would not be able to hear anything, since you'd be moving away from the source of sound faster than it can reach the ears.

Using the sound of moment isn't enough proof to say someone shouldn't be Supersonic or above by itself.

This discussion is meaningless if Number 6 has no Supersonic feats in the first place.

There is no rubber bullet speed, since they vary greatly. And many instances of rubber bullets are fired at similar velocities as live ammunition as well. However we should come a conclusion on what muzzle velocity we use for these guns. As being rubber does indeed change them from a standard round.

Exactly the foot steps thing can’t count also in that feat where he takes the gun you can clearly see the sound happens way after he fired and left
Doesn’t this mean with ur logic that he is still far faster than sound

 

[Alancaliber]

Also what is the basis for this downgrading thread?

 

[Alancaliber]

also I don’t know why @Onelixy is bringing up this arguement again I’m pretty sure he brought up this argument in the chat of the scale and was debunked

 

[TheRustyOne]

The main issue is the MHS calc appears to be invalid.

The issuing being the calc assumes that Number 6 shot an officer, than proceeded to walk over and shoot other officers and than begin walking away before the first bullet he fires hits the officer. The problem with my calc is that there is nothing to suggest that the first officer hasn't been hit by the bullet before Number 6 is finished.

He's already moving faster than they can react, at speeds so fast that they're all frozen and cannot see him. But at no point do we see any bullets frozen in mid air during this scene, and the bullets could've already made contact with the officer at any time. The only time we see the bullets hit anyone is when Number 6 is already done and walking away.

So first off, is the assumption I'm using above valid? That the bullet Number 6 fired first didn't hit the officer until he was already walking away.

 

[Alancaliber]

i think it didnt hit i mean the bullet was never clearly shown and they did have that dramatic panel after that shows them being hit so I don't see why the bullet would hit before, seems like the point was to show how fast he was even the sound came waaay afteer
but I can agree it might be arguable

 

[Damage3245]

So first off, is the assumption I'm using above valid? That the bullet Number 6 fired first didn't hit the officer until he was already walking away.

I agree that it seems like that calc is not valid.

 

[Alancaliber]

I agree that it seems like that calc is not valid.

bro chill out why u always so quick to agree with anything that is a downgrade his whole point is that its not clear the calc determinant on whether the bullet hit the officer

 

[Damage3245]

bro chill out why u always so quick to agree with anything that is a downgrade his whole point is that its not clear the calc determinant on whether the bullet hit the officer

It's not spur of the moment agreement. I was part of the conversation from the previous thread.

 

[Alancaliber]

It's not spur of the moment agreement. I was part of the conversation from the previous thread.

yh which you agreed to because its a possible downgrade Ive been in almost all the mha content revision threads since 2020 and in everyone of them anytime someone says something that could be a downgrade you immediately agree like the person who made this thread you immediately agreed with them when they brought it up or when I made that thread abt the possible bullet speed upgrade and someone disagreed u agreed with that person and called it "dubious", the logic is the problem the calc is ok ur acting like the calc is wrong

 

[Alancaliber]

yh which you agreed to because its a possible downgrade Ive been in almost all the mha content revision threads since 2020 and in everyone of them anytime someone says something that could be a downgrade you immediately agree like the person who made this thread you immediately agreed with them when they brought it up or when I made that thread abt the possible bullet speed upgrade and someone disagreed u agreed with that person and called it "dubious", the logic is the problem the calc is ok ur acting like the calc is wrong

dont get me wrong i understand ur staff and its your job to ensure accurate info but it seems ur literally always disagreeing with upgrades and agreeing with downgrades for MHA, It wouldn't be a problem if you were just disagreeing with upgrades tbh but the always agreeing with downgrades is the prob

 

[Damage3245]

dont get me wrong i understand ur staff and its your job to ensure accurate info but it seems ur literally always disagreeing with upgrades and and agreeing with downgrades for mha

I take part in threads most of the time if I spot something wrong tbh, but you'll be able to find plenty of short CRTs where I've found nothing out of place and agreed with the upgrades or additions. They're just lot less noticed because they're uncontroversial and don't go on long.

As for MHA, I'm a big fan of the series. I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing here.

 

[Alancaliber]

I take part in threads most of the time if I spot something wrong tbh, but you'll be able to find plenty of short CRTs where I've found nothing out of place and agreed with the upgrades or additions. They're just lot less noticed because they're uncontroversial and don't go on long.

As for MHA, I'm a big fan of the series. I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing here.

sorry if i sounded rude its just what I observed, not saying your disagreeing for disagreeing, the disagreeing makes sense a lot of the time its the agreeing with the downgrades

 

[Damage3245]

sorry if i sounded rude its just what I observed, not saying your disagreeing for disagreeing, the disagreeing makes sense a lot of the time its the agreeing with the downgrades

It's no problem. I've accrued a bit of a reputation on VSBW as the booygeyman who swoops in to play Devil's Advocate a lot of the time. It's a thankless role 90% of the time but I feel like I need to do it sometimes otherwise some things can get missed.

 

[Alancaliber]

It's no problem. I've accrued a bit of a reputation on VSBW as the booygeyman who swoops in to play Devil's Advocate a lot of the time. It's a thankless role 90% of the time but I feel like I need to do it sometimes otherwise some things can get missed.

looool we good , sorry for the derailing back to the actual thread

 

[Alancaliber]

Still disagree with OP tho

 

[Onelixy]

also I don’t know why @Onelixy is bringing up this arguement again I’m pretty sure he brought up this argument in the chat of the scale and was debunked

How was anything I brought up debunked? The points started a conversation and we found a legitimate issue with one of Number 6's best calcs which very many characters scale with.

 

[TheRustyOne]

How was anything I brought up debunked? The points started a conversation and we found a legitimate issue with one of Number 6's best calcs which very many characters scale with.

No one scales to Number 6 max speed except for Koichi, but his profiles hasn't been updated for many reasons.

Only Koichi would scale, no one else.

 

[Damage3245]

Koichi wouldn't scale fully either way. It's made clear multiple times that he's inferior to Number 6 in speed, and is survivng through pure instinctive reactions.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Koichi wouldn't scale fully either way. It's made clear multiple times that he's inferior to Number 6 in speed, and is survivng through pure instinctive reactions.

Number 6 at his fastest possible speed was unable to land any real hits on him. And Koichi at multiple times was shown to be capable of blocking or dodging his strikes. Even interrupting him mid Overclock with an attack. These are instinctive reactions yes, but they still scale to him.

If they weren't Number 6 would blitz him, that is pure logic. Koichi can keep up with Overclock, and react to him even in his Hi-Crawler and Lightning Style speed increase. With AFO stating his bodies reaction are even faster than Number 6's thoughts.

Unless we have reason to believe Number 6 was holding back, or something was forcing him to move slower. As Number 6 has no reason not to use the full speed of his Quirk when he is basically bloodlusted, and wants Koichi dead.

 

[Onelixy]

No one scales to Number 6 max speed except for Koichi, but his profiles hasn't been updated for many reasons.

Interesting. I thought Overhaul and Rappa, etc, scaled to this, or rather, to Number 6, who had this feat.

Edit: No, I was correct.
To be clear, this is on Overhaul's page:

Casually defeated Rappa five times in a row, whose Quirk is just as fast as Overclock <- This exact calculation.

If there are different feats and calculations for Number 6, we should rely on those instead, or begin discussing those.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Interesting. I thought Overhaul and Rappa, etc, scaled to this.

Rappa's Quirk scales to Overclock's slowest speed boost, the 3X one. However that scaling is honestly not all that important anymore, due to calcs that came after mine.

But no one scales to the max speed of Overclock, and only Koichi does through his instinctive reactions.

 

[Alancaliber]

What abt all might who blitzed all the clones?, are we still saying these clones aren’t at his full speed when we have nothing that says other wise they are even in his same lightning form and even if we said they would at least be as fast as his emergence speed.
But I don’t see why would say they aren’t as fast as his fastest speed

 

[Onelixy]

What abt all might who blitzed all the clones?

This could be an interesting feat to dig into, especially since every clone appears to be struck almost instantly, indicated by both panels, first from the ground, then from the sky.

However, we should establish what we think is fair for Number 6's speed first.

 

[TheRustyOne]

The clones have no reason to scale to Number 6's speed. Number 6 moves so fast even in a weakened condition that people cannot even see him.

The clones can be seen and even reacted to by normal people. There is a clear difference between Number 6's Overclock speed and what these "clones", which aren't really clones and more like projectile attacks that look like him. Seriously the only reason this discussion is happening is because of their appearance.

Note: Talking about the clones and All Might is considered derailing and such talks do not belong on this thread. Make a new thread if you want to talk about it. I will not response or even acknowledge anymore talk about Number 6's clones and All Might blitzing them.

 

[Alancaliber]

The clones have no reason to scale to Number 6's speed. Number 6 moves so fast even in a weakened condition that people cannot even see him.

The clones can be seen and even reacted to by normal people. There is a clear difference between Number 6's Overclock speed and what these "clones", which aren't really clones and more like projectile attacks that look like him. Seriously the only reason this discussion is happening is because of their appearance.

Note: Talking about the clones and All Might is considered derailing and such talks do not belong on this thread. Make a new thread if you want to talk about it. I will not response or even acknowledge anymore talk about Number 6's clones and All Might blitzing them.

First of all chill bro, the thread was currently on asking who else would scale to his speed, all might was a valid character to question and I don’t see why ur getting tight over me bringing up a valid argument simply because u disagree, I don’t need u to acknowledge it I didn’t ask u to, wasn’t even changing topics just bringing up a valid question that the OP also thought was interesting.

And ur reason genuinely sucks, the idea that they can’t be that fast because the citizens can see them is so bad that would contradict so many anime/manga if we used that logic u can disagree but you’ll need a better resaon than that

 

[Onelixy]

the idea that they can’t be that fast because the citizens can see them is so bad that would contradict so many anime/manga if we used that logic

While this is true, Damage explained this in the other thread as well. We shouldn't ignore some aspects just because other series and illustrations might misrepresent or miss the mark. Let's evaluate those instances individually and figure out if it's valid or not.

For now, I'm still a bit curious about Number 6's movement speed.

 

[Alancaliber]

i get what your saying i just doubt the author was thinking abt that and just wanted to draw the citizens scared like most shows do

 

[Alancaliber]

While this is true, Damage explained this in the other thread as well. We shouldn't ignore some aspects just because other series and illustrations might misrepresent or miss the mark. Let's evaluate those instances individually and figure out if it's valid or not.

For now, I'm still a bit curious about Number 6's movement speed.

But then why are we choosing to do it here, what he said makes sense but what allows us to use it in this particular situation

 

[Onelixy]

But then why are we choosing to do it here, what he said makes sense but what allows us to use it in this particular situation

The question now is some of the calcs related to Overclock and particularly the movement speed. It's hard to find concrete examples of x distance crossed in x time.
Until we figure out what's fair, we shouldn't shrug off information and hints given in the manga, even if the results can be disappointing.
But that's probably for another thread.

Spoiler: Unrelated

I also have suggestions for upgrades and several unused feats I'm confident could work. I'm not trying to downgrade, I just think we should apply a decent standard.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Concerning the rubber bullet speed. I can’t find anything that suggests the bullet would be slower if fired from a normal gun as irl they typically aren’t. All I’ve found is an unbacked statement that you’d have to reduce the propellant so the bullet wouldn’t be destroyed.

Btw @Onelixy surprised you’re Belando. It’s like I see you everywhere on ComciVine