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My Hero Academia: Star and Stripe Calc Issue
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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Nah wait actually yeah Rusty is right, I just did the math
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Yep, it's somehow even higher than before...? Maybe because of the lower altitude it increases the density?
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I believe that is the case. Since the clouds thickness is lower, the air density is higher. I've seen this with some other calcs as well.
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- Thread starter
- #45
I'm not so sure about the height of the cloud there.
What is the height of the cloud above the sea in the panel where the laser is compared to the clouds?
What is the height of the cloud above the sea in the panel where the laser is compared to the clouds?
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- #46
I'll address the consistency point soon.
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267.19 meters for cloud, 1483.66 meters above sea level.
But Rusty has a point here, since the laser in the center and the cloud I'm measuring is far back, it would act more like a lower end.
This is one of the reasons why I didn't measured the cloud width in the previous calc, as there's really nothing right besides it to fully measure it.
As for the result itself, it probably has something to do with the variables of DT's calculator, a lower cloud height means higher density.
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Ok wait…. If Stars initial cloud dispersion clap is nearly 110 kilometers in diameter….then how bloodbig is this other cloud dispersion feat she did which was way bigger?
Goddamn
Goddamn
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Let's not talk about feats outside of what is in the OP.
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Not the same clouds, those clouds are located much higher than the ones Star first dispersed.Ok wait…. If Stars initial cloud dispersion clap is nearly 110 kilometers in diameter….then how bloodbig is this other cloud dispersion feat she did which was way bigger?
Goddamn
Edit: But like Rusty said, let's focus on this thread first.
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Welp, I missed a lot clearly
So we’ve got a new calc for the feat involving getting the height via pixel scaling. It looks good to me, I’ll put in an official evaluation once I’m at a computer. My stance on the whole consistency thing remains the same
So we’ve got a new calc for the feat involving getting the height via pixel scaling. It looks good to me, I’ll put in an official evaluation once I’m at a computer. My stance on the whole consistency thing remains the same
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- #52
I'll be a bit longer before I can leave another comment, but I'll try not to leave you waiting too long.
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Take your time, I’m not really in a rush tbh
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I would like to put my two cents in on why I think the hole seems smaller after the first panel.
When a large volume of air is dispersed, it creates a vacuum. This vacuum wants to quickly get filled with air, at a noteworthy speed of 365 meters per second, giving it more than enough time for the hole to get smaller between panels.
Needless to say, pushing the clouds enough to create a vacuum would not necessarily mean that it would suck in all those clouds as they were before, since there is plenty of air to take from all directions.
That's why I think the first panel should be used, not only because the feat was the main focus during that panel, and therefore should have priority, but also because there is a plausible reason why it seems to be shrinking with each panel.
If people somehow think that a vacuum wasn't created (even though the feat occurred in an instant), then I would respond saying that all of our cloud feats assume that a vacuum is created, as that's why the entire density of air is used, and not just the density of cloud water.
When a large volume of air is dispersed, it creates a vacuum. This vacuum wants to quickly get filled with air, at a noteworthy speed of 365 meters per second, giving it more than enough time for the hole to get smaller between panels.
That's simple, the vacuum not only sucks air in from the sides, where the clouds reside, but also from above and below.
Needless to say, pushing the clouds enough to create a vacuum would not necessarily mean that it would suck in all those clouds as they were before, since there is plenty of air to take from all directions.
That's why I think the first panel should be used, not only because the feat was the main focus during that panel, and therefore should have priority, but also because there is a plausible reason why it seems to be shrinking with each panel.
If people somehow think that a vacuum wasn't created (even though the feat occurred in an instant), then I would respond saying that all of our cloud feats assume that a vacuum is created, as that's why the entire density of air is used, and not just the density of cloud water.
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I'll address that part too when I can.
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I’m in agreement with Clover and Therefir
I don’t agree that any of the panels override or negate the size of the cloud split that Therefir has. I think this is just authors making minor size mistakes to show us where Shigaraki is in opposition to the Avatar
I mean it makes no sense for the clouds to be like 30 meters tall
I don’t agree that any of the panels override or negate the size of the cloud split that Therefir has. I think this is just authors making minor size mistakes to show us where Shigaraki is in opposition to the Avatar
I mean it makes no sense for the clouds to be like 30 meters tall
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- #57
I'm sorry for the wait it's taken me to make my response post. I'm working on it currently and I've just spotted some more new evidence that will hopefully help the discussion on here so I'm including that in it too before I respond.
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You are free to provide whatever evidence you want, I'm not going to change my mind, the panel that the author puts the most detail, time, and effort into is the one that comes closest to his vision of what the feat should actually look like.
And we are fortunate that Horikoshi not only made it a double-page spread, but made the drawing itself extremely detailed.
Not only that, the hole in the sky loses its purpose and relevance in any of the following panels, as the feat has already occurred and we have seen with full clarity the extent of Star's power during that panel, further lowering the priority of smaller panels over the big one.
And we are fortunate that Horikoshi not only made it a double-page spread, but made the drawing itself extremely detailed.
Not only that, the hole in the sky loses its purpose and relevance in any of the following panels, as the feat has already occurred and we have seen with full clarity the extent of Star's power during that panel, further lowering the priority of smaller panels over the big one.
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- #59
If you're declaring that you are unwilling to change your mind in the face of whatever evidence there is (bearing in mind you don't even know what I'm going to post here) then you're just admitting to being close-minded and your opinion is less reliable. Sorry, but that's not an appropriate attitude for a staff member to take.
You could at least say "I'm unlikely to change my mind."
You could at least say "I'm unlikely to change my mind."
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Just say what you have to say about your supposed "evidence" and I will read, I simply believe my opinion is the truth and for that reason I will "most likely" not change it.
English is not even my first language so give me a break.
English is not even my first language so give me a break.
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Haven't you yourself also expressed this unwillingness to change your mind? In fact, 5 different Calc Group Members (myself, TheRustyOne, Therefir, Dalsean, and Mitch) have expressed their disagreement with you for similar reasons, yet you still have yet to acknowledge that fact. It'd take a lot for this thread to not be considered rejected after all that
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I don't think I've ever said in this thread that I'm unwilling to change my mind. I've listened to the posts and I've gone back on my initial conclusion which was to remove the feat entirely. I now think it should be re-calced based on what's been said here but I still have some thoughts about how that should happen.
I'm not sure how you were expecting me to acknowledge user's disagreements as I have been responding to the posts that have come up here.
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All I'm really saying is that given the state of the thread, you'd need something really major to sway it given the sheer number of CGMs disagreeing. I think that's worth keeping in mind
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- #64
I don't think I stand much of a chance of changing everyone's mind no matter what I posted, lol. But I'll continue with my argument soon because I don't think it'd be right to give up on it easily.
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I think things are getting a bit heated.
How’s about we just let Damage post his evidence and respond as necessary? No point trying to shoot it down when we don’t even know what he’s gonna say, that’s not how this should be accepted.
How’s about we just let Damage post his evidence and respond as necessary? No point trying to shoot it down when we don’t even know what he’s gonna say, that’s not how this should be accepted.
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I disagree with Damage yes, but it'd be impolite to not let him at least make his point here. He hasn't even brought it up yet.
While I know that isn't the intention here, it kind of comes off like that.
I'm not closed minded. In fact I'm certain no one here is, just that we'll believe strongly in what we see as correct. Let's stay chill. Ninja'd.
While I know that isn't the intention here, it kind of comes off like that.
I'm not closed minded. In fact I'm certain no one here is, just that we'll believe strongly in what we see as correct. Let's stay chill. Ninja'd.
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My bad, stress has been weighing on me lately, but I shouldn't have taken it to that point.
I'll just wait on Damage's evidence in the meantime
I'll just wait on Damage's evidence in the meantime
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- #70
Thank you both. I know you don't mean anything negative my your comments. You have a right to be skeptical.
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- #71
Now, I can see that I'm currently outnumbered at the moment but I'd like to go over the most important points to try and explain why the counter-arguments aren't convincing to me.
I'll start with the new evidence which I think would show that the big double-page spread is either being drawn inaccurately or it's being scaled inaccurately.
I think we can all agree that the black dot show in the center of Star and Stripe's air-clap is Shigaraki & the Nomu, so if we scale them to find out how high they are above the cloud layer:
That nearly vertical black line there, if we compare it to the dispersion radius, is about 22005 meters, or just over 22 km.
If nobody can see at first glance why that would be a problem... allow me to point out the preceding page which shows Star and Stripe's avatar standing in the cloud layer and punching Shigaraki who is roughly at level with her.
As reminder Star and Stripe's avatar there has a canon height of 1930 meters and half of her body is in the clouds (this is consistent both before and after the dispersal).
Shigaraki went flying backwards after her punch, not up, so he certainly wasn't launched 20 kilometers up in the air and even if he somehow was... Star and Stripe's avatar wouldn't be able to reach him for the actual clap attack.... Shigaraki would have to still be level with her avatar for it to connect.
If you're arguing for the dispersal diameter of the clouds to be 100 km across... We end up with this issue where Shigaraki is nowhere near where he is supposed to be for the sequence of events to make sense.
Whereas if the gap in the clouds was just 1680.71888525 meters across as this panel suggests, then Shigaraki's height above the cloud layer would be 338 meters. Which is within range of Star and Stripe's 2 km-tall avatar.
And to check the consistency of that, angsizing the distance to Star and Stripe's avatar here gives me a distance between the panel and her head to be 1629.7 meters. The clouds are closer to Star and Stripe's avatar than that since we can see them between panel and the avatar. If the edge of the clouds were halfway between the panel and the avatar there, that makes a radius of roughly 800 meters which isn't far off the scaling from the other panel.
To address this argument next:
This explanation isn't satisfactory considering how short the timeframe is between the panels.
The sequence of events between the avatar clapping Shigaraki and then our next look at the clouds is covered on this page, this page and this page.
We can see how quickly the events are happening; Shigaraki is crushed between her palms, Star commands her support jets to fire their lasers at her and she collects them together into a single pillar of laser which she holds overhead while Shigaraki and the Nomu are still falling from the previous impact.
Even being generous, I have a hard time imagining it took Star and Stripe more than 10 seconds to be shot by the lasers and gather them together into a weapon. Any longer than that and you'd expect Shigaraki and the Nomu to have recovered, or at least they'd fall further than they have.
The new value for the dispersion radius is 54687.40 m. So assuming that the clouds on all sides were all rushing back inwards, at the rate of 365 m/s as you suggested, that would take the clouds around two and a half minutes to get back to a state comparable to this visual.
So this suggested explanation to account for the difference between the panels falls short.
So, I can understand the perspective of wanting to take the first and biggest panel as the priority here... but as I've pointed out above there are logical consistency issues with how that panel is drawn that would suggest it is either not drawn correctly or our scaling is way off, and there are logical issues with trying to headcanon a way for why the clouds would be drawn the way they are later in the chapter if the hole was supposed to be 100 km across and then suddenly isn't in every showing after that.
I'll start with the new evidence which I think would show that the big double-page spread is either being drawn inaccurately or it's being scaled inaccurately.
I think we can all agree that the black dot show in the center of Star and Stripe's air-clap is Shigaraki & the Nomu, so if we scale them to find out how high they are above the cloud layer:
That nearly vertical black line there, if we compare it to the dispersion radius, is about 22005 meters, or just over 22 km.
If nobody can see at first glance why that would be a problem... allow me to point out the preceding page which shows Star and Stripe's avatar standing in the cloud layer and punching Shigaraki who is roughly at level with her.
As reminder Star and Stripe's avatar there has a canon height of 1930 meters and half of her body is in the clouds (this is consistent both before and after the dispersal).
Shigaraki went flying backwards after her punch, not up, so he certainly wasn't launched 20 kilometers up in the air and even if he somehow was... Star and Stripe's avatar wouldn't be able to reach him for the actual clap attack.... Shigaraki would have to still be level with her avatar for it to connect.
If you're arguing for the dispersal diameter of the clouds to be 100 km across... We end up with this issue where Shigaraki is nowhere near where he is supposed to be for the sequence of events to make sense.
Whereas if the gap in the clouds was just 1680.71888525 meters across as this panel suggests, then Shigaraki's height above the cloud layer would be 338 meters. Which is within range of Star and Stripe's 2 km-tall avatar.
And to check the consistency of that, angsizing the distance to Star and Stripe's avatar here gives me a distance between the panel and her head to be 1629.7 meters. The clouds are closer to Star and Stripe's avatar than that since we can see them between panel and the avatar. If the edge of the clouds were halfway between the panel and the avatar there, that makes a radius of roughly 800 meters which isn't far off the scaling from the other panel.
To address this argument next:
This explanation isn't satisfactory considering how short the timeframe is between the panels.
The sequence of events between the avatar clapping Shigaraki and then our next look at the clouds is covered on this page, this page and this page.
We can see how quickly the events are happening; Shigaraki is crushed between her palms, Star commands her support jets to fire their lasers at her and she collects them together into a single pillar of laser which she holds overhead while Shigaraki and the Nomu are still falling from the previous impact.
Even being generous, I have a hard time imagining it took Star and Stripe more than 10 seconds to be shot by the lasers and gather them together into a weapon. Any longer than that and you'd expect Shigaraki and the Nomu to have recovered, or at least they'd fall further than they have.
The new value for the dispersion radius is 54687.40 m. So assuming that the clouds on all sides were all rushing back inwards, at the rate of 365 m/s as you suggested, that would take the clouds around two and a half minutes to get back to a state comparable to this visual.
So this suggested explanation to account for the difference between the panels falls short.
So, I can understand the perspective of wanting to take the first and biggest panel as the priority here... but as I've pointed out above there are logical consistency issues with how that panel is drawn that would suggest it is either not drawn correctly or our scaling is way off, and there are logical issues with trying to headcanon a way for why the clouds would be drawn the way they are later in the chapter if the hole was supposed to be 100 km across and then suddenly isn't in every showing after that.
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Okay, let's get into this.
That dot has the shape of a diamond, honestly I think it's just the impact of the attack, and that Shigaraki and the Nomu are not visible, since as you can see, Star and Stripe's jets are also not visible anywhere in the panel, despite being far bigger than Shigaraki and the Nomu.
In fact I think that's supposed to the Giant Stat itself, but let's not get carried away.
But Damage, that's not the height above the cloud, that's the base of the cloud above the sea.
What you were trying to measure is this:
What's wrong with the giant being above the cloud layer? The Giant Star is most likely floating due to being made of the lighter air around her than the air below.
Furthermore adding in to this, most fighter jets fly at an altitude of between 13716 and 15544.8 meters, and up to 19812 meters for moder jets, making the height used in my panels more consistent, as the jets were traveling at that altitude before the fight even started.
That's assuming they weren't already fighting at that altitude, or that the Giant Star can't move to catch up to him, Shigaraki was launched so far away that he is not even visible on the panel he was punched.
The first page doesn't show the width of the cloud, so it's irrelevant.
I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with this sequent of events taking time, when we you yourself used the same sequence of events to argue for a longer timeframe when I was calculating this feat, not to mention both Shiggy and the Nomu were stunned by the attack and Star had to make the rule by saying a sentence and later prepare the lasers.
After further investigation, the rate at which the air fills the vacuum is actually 500 m/s, so it would take around a minute to have mostly closed the hole in the sky.
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Therefir makes more sense to me right now. Especially the bit about the diamond-shaped thing being the impact of the attack. This also makes sense because while Shigaraki and the giant were above the clouds, they weren't that far above them
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- #75
But Therefir... You just acknowledged the thickness of the clouds in your calc is around 270 meters.
You cannot then have the thickness of the clouds simultaneously being 20 km.
Yes, the impact of the attack being exactly where Tomura and the Nomu are supposed to be. Either way my point is correct since that's where the clap attack is.
Because we see in every other panel that the giant isn't that high up...
But you just proved in your own calc that the height of the clouds above the sea is around 1480 meters, and both Tomura and the jets were flying just above the cloud layer.
So your own calc proves they weren't already fighting at that altitude unless you're arguing against your own calc.
That's exactly my point. They weren't that far above the clouds.
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If they weren't that far, you can't really say that black dot is Shigaraki and the Nomu
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- #77
Hence why I think that panel is too flawed to use.
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We cannot fully see the width those cloud due to the perspective, that's why I didn't measure it that way, we are looking at the cloud nearly from above, and doesn't take the fact that you are measuring the height to the clap from the base of the cloud, instead of the top of cloud to the clap like you should be doing.
And actually, since Shigaraki was punched far above the cloud layer before the clap happened, then what exactly is wrong with the height I got? Shigaraki is not even on the panel he was punched, he could be any distance above the cloud layer after being punched.
And what your point is trying to prove exactly other than an the impact being far above this cloud layer?
That "cloud layer" you are referring to is actually called cirruscumulus, and can only form at an altitude 5 to 12 km, not 1.48 kilometers.
And once again, that's irrelevant as Shigaraki was punched an unknown distance above the cloud layer itself.
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- #79
I think you're not exactly seeing why I brought up the height issue above the clouds. I will attempt to rephrase it.
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The crux of that argument is that the black dot is Shigaraki, to which I am saying that it isn't due to the fact that Shigaraki is further down than this.
It's not that it's inconsistent, it's that the black dot isn't Shigaraki to begin with
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