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My Hero Academia: Star and Stripe Calc Issue

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CloverDragon03 said:
I think the High 6-C end has the most support
Click to expand...

Okay, since the calculations appear to be acceptable but you're currently convinced that the High 6-C end has the most support, I will try my best to tackle why I think the High 6-C version of the calc is flawed.


From what I can tell the basis of the High 6-C calc is this:

1) Star and Stripe's avatar's canonical size values is what is used to find the width of the combined laser beam which in turn is used to find the dimensions of the Cloud Thickness and the Distance To The Ocean in the panel from Chapter 332.

2) The value for the Distance To The Ocean is then applied to the panel from Chapter 331 where the dispersion occurs in order to find the Dispersion Radius.

3) With all of those values, the volume of the dispersion and velocity of the dispersion can be found allowing the K.E. of the clouds of the calced.

There are issues with this method however. The main one being the contradicting visuals between the two panels while assuming for the sake of the calc that the visuals are also consistent.

There are three things we can actually get from scaling the panel in Chapter 332 here; the Dispersion Radius, the Cloud Thickness and the Distance To The Ocean. All three of those things can be scaled here from the combined laser.

Instead however, the Distance To The Ocean is then being applied to another panel... and that just doesn't work. See this little bit of pixelscaling here for reference. If the 1483.66 m value is used for the Distance To The Ocean, then the Cloud Thickness in that panel is at least 5713.39245614 m. So if the Cloud Thickness is impacted by using cross-panel scaling here and made inaccurate... then couldn't the same be happening for the Dispersion Radius?

This is because inherently the visuals aren't consistent. If the Distance To The Ocean is assumed to be a consistent value between the two panels, then the Cloud Thickness values will contradict each other. If the Cloud Thickness is assumed to be a consistent value between the two panels, then the Distance To The Ocean values will contradict each other. While we accept that no piece of art in any series is ever going to be perfectly consistent with each other as authors are only human, there is a contradiction too big to ignore here when just one of the multiple possible variables from the Chapter 332 panel is being selectively used here for a different panel's pixelscaling.


The second point I'd like to bring up is to reiterate the consistency in the positioning of the characters and why it would go against the assumptions required for the High 6-C calc.

Before the clap takes place, we know that Shigaraki is positioned a few hundred meters above the cloud layer based on the canonical size and positioning of Star and Stripe's avatar. Star and Stripe's avatar is positioned with the cloud layer around her hips.

When Shigaraki is punched back, the speed lines of the panel indicate horizontal movement as there are lines above and below them and they're extending towards the distance behind them, not below them. Now, we see that Star Stripe is following through with the clap immediately after the punch. There is no indication of vertical movement on her part; it is clear that Shigaraki and the Nomu can't have been travelling all that far as they're both still within range of her follow-up attack.

After the clap takes place, Shigaraki is shown to be at the level of the cloud layer. Bear in mind this must take place a matter of seconds after the clap took place as the only actions Star and Stripe has taken is to be shot with lasers which she combined into a single weapon and raised overhead to strike Shigaraki with, and this happened before Shigaraki and the Nomu were able to recover. We know their recovery speed is extraordinarily quick, as the High-End Nomu could shoot out the water as soon as Star and Stripe's laser holding it down went away.

If Tomura Shigaraki and the Nomu were launched into the air a distance of 20 km as the High 6-C calc's measurements would suggest, there simply wouldn't be any time for them to fall back that same distance. The assumption that the two of them were launched downward by the clap is inherently a baseless assumption as neither of the two show speedlines or other signs of significant velocity here. How does it make sense to justify an unlikely vertical ascension that is so high by coming up with an equally unsupported assumption that they were shot back down just as quickly?

So, we have indication that Tomura Shigaraki's and the Nomu's position remained consistent during the scene (not too far away from the cloud layer), and we have indication that Star and Stripe's position remained consistent too as the avatar is shown to be in the same place before and after the clap.

If you have to require the headcanon that Star and Stripe's avatar travelled vertically 20 km up in order to reach Shigaraki for the clap to take place, and then had to travel 20 km straight back down in order to get back to its original position for the scene to make any sense despite there being no signs of movement, then the nature of the calc itself does not seem heavily supported to me.


The third point I'd like to make is just to circle back to the topic of what it means for the calc to be supported. As established up above, the method for the High 6-C takes the value from one panel's pixelscaling and applies to to a different panel to get an extremely high Dispersion Radius value of 54 km. It is worth stressing how large this value is because of all the possible values we can get for it, this value is the least supported.

If we took the Dispersion Radius directly from the Chapter 332 panel (which gets us 1.6 km), even if that figure is hard to believe, it is still supported by the visuals in these two panels from Chapter 331 here and here. You've mentioned it is possible for things to be consistently wrong and I don't deny that. It is possible... But I'm not claiming to know with absolute certainty what the "true" value is here. We're making approximations as best we can using the limited evidence and methods available to us.

And I can say at least that value taken from Chapter 332 is more supported than the 54 km radius is. Weighing up the balance of evidence doesn't tell me which one is exactly right, but it does tell me which one requires more assumptions or is less consistent. And what I've posted up above currently has me believing that the High 6-C calc is both.


If I had to summarize my issues in three short points it would be that a) the values used in the calc are too inconsistent and contradictory and b) in order for the High 6-C calc to make any kind of sense, you have to make several assumptions on the sequence of events which are not shown to us in the manga and c) the rest of the visuals of the feat do not support the pixelscaling used for the High 6-C calc.

Apologies for the wait it has taken to get the time to make this post. Please feel free to take time in order to respond to it.
 
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Dalesean027 said:
So Damage given what you've just said above which version would you suggest is best in your opinion high 6-C aside

I'll also wait on Clovers response to your comment
Click to expand...
Bearing in mind that while I don't think any calc is perfect here, my most favored option out of those three is the High 7-A calc because it has the fewest contradictions in it and the fewest assumptions.

I think a 4th end could be created focusing specifically on the panel from Chapter 332, but out of those three options, that one is the best.
 
The size is inconsistent, with the hole clearly being much smaller when we see it in chapter 332.

I did make a blog for it and I got 7-C results. (This is the lowest results, basically it cannot be lower than this)

I've come to add an element of chaos, to be frank I did my own version. As I said above, the chapter 332 hole is far too different from the hole seen in chapter 331.

I don't think it's fine to use both of those shots for the other, they should only be used for themselves.

However I admit this only applies if we assume the hole isn't changing size/closing due to what was explained earlier.

My calc's assumption is that Star's giant isn't inside of the water. Which I think is reasonable to say, especially with what has been discussed before.

Feel free to disagree with my calc if you all see it as unreasonable. I just did what I thought made sense at the time.
 
Arkenis said:
Shouldn't this one be used if we know the size of the pillars or is the angle just not good?

Edit: Just saw the calc for it. I think its fine
Click to expand...
My response I'm typing up (idk when it'll be done tho considering I'm hanging out with friends both tomorrow and Thursday) will address why it shouldn't be used, among other things
 
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Damage3245 said:
While we're waiting, did you think that my last post explaining why I think the proposed calc isn't as supported as it seems has any merit?
Click to expand...
I found it to be a sound explanation but without Clover's counter points to judge by I can't say im leaning to either sidemore than the other with the current argument I mean even outside of this thread a lot of this was covered in that inconsistencies about sizes thread as well

Either way it turns out I recognize both sides and have no qualms either way
 
It's been 3000 years but I've finally made a response. Feel free to take your time responding to it.
Damage3245 said:
There are issues with this method however. The main one being the contradicting visuals between the two panels while assuming for the sake of the calc that the visuals are also consistent.

There are three things we can actually get from scaling the panel in Chapter 332 here; the Dispersion Radius, the Cloud Thickness and the Distance To The Ocean. All three of those things can be scaled here from the combined laser.

Instead however, the Distance To The Ocean is then being applied to another panel... and that just doesn't work. See this little bit of pixelscaling here for reference. If the 1483.66 m value is used for the Distance To The Ocean, then the Cloud Thickness in that panel is at least 5713.39245614 m. So if the Cloud Thickness is impacted by using cross-panel scaling here and made inaccurate... then couldn't the same be happening for the Dispersion Radius?

This is because inherently the visuals aren't consistent. If the Distance To The Ocean is assumed to be a consistent value between the two panels, then the Cloud Thickness values will contradict each other. If the Cloud Thickness is assumed to be a consistent value between the two panels, then the Distance To The Ocean values will contradict each other. While we accept that no piece of art in any series is ever going to be perfectly consistent with each other as authors are only human, there is a contradiction too big to ignore here when just one of the multiple possible variables from the Chapter 332 panel is being selectively used here for a different panel's pixelscaling.
Click to expand...
I'll start from here since everything before this is summarizing the basis of the High 6-C calc

I believe Therefir has already explained this point. This shot cannot be used as a measure of the split's width because it's well after the initial split, as the clouds were filling up the vacuum created by the split, as explained by him. It's not arbitrary selectiveness, it's accounting for this fact by using the panel where the split directly happens so that none of it has been filled up. The altitude and thickness are not affected, given the cylindrical nature of the split, so we can use that panel from Chapter 332 for those things specifically.
Damage3245 said:
The second point I'd like to bring up is to reiterate the consistency in the positioning of the characters and why it would go against the assumptions required for the High 6-C calc.

Before the clap takes place, we know that Shigaraki is positioned a few hundred meters above the cloud layer based on the canonical size and positioning of Star and Stripe's avatar. Star and Stripe's avatar is positioned with the cloud layer around her hips.

When Shigaraki is punched back, the speed lines of the panel indicate horizontal movement as there are lines above and below them and they're extending towards the distance behind them, not below them. Now, we see that Star Stripe is following through with the clap immediately after the punch. There is no indication of vertical movement on her part; it is clear that Shigaraki and the Nomu can't have been travelling all that far as they're both still within range of her follow-up attack.

After the clap takes place, Shigaraki is shown to be at the level of the cloud layer. Bear in mind this must take place a matter of seconds after the clap took place as the only actions Star and Stripe has taken is to be shot with lasers which she combined into a single weapon and raised overhead to strike Shigaraki with, and this happened before Shigaraki and the Nomu were able to recover. We know their recovery speed is extraordinarily quick, as the High-End Nomu could shoot out the water as soon as Star and Stripe's laser holding it down went away.

If Tomura Shigaraki and the Nomu were launched into the air a distance of 20 km as the High 6-C calc's measurements would suggest, there simply wouldn't be any time for them to fall back that same distance. The assumption that the two of them were launched downward by the clap is inherently a baseless assumption as neither of the two show speedlines or other signs of significant velocity here. How does it make sense to justify an unlikely vertical ascension that is so high by coming up with an equally unsupported assumption that they were shot back down just as quickly?

So, we have indication that Tomura Shigaraki's and the Nomu's position remained consistent during the scene (not too far away from the cloud layer), and we have indication that Star and Stripe's position remained consistent too as the avatar is shown to be in the same place before and after the clap.

If you have to require the headcanon that Star and Stripe's avatar travelled vertically 20 km up in order to reach Shigaraki for the clap to take place, and then had to travel 20 km straight back down in order to get back to its original position for the scene to make any sense despite there being no signs of movement, then the nature of the calc itself does not seem heavily supported to me.
Click to expand...
Grouping this all together here as the whole argument appears to be split into three major points, with this one being the second one.

I'm not denying there is horizontal movement. However, there is a clear vertical component, as shown by the movement of the clouds and the positioning of the fist of Star's avatar. As shown here, there is a clear vertical component present.

As for after the clap takes place, the crux of the argument seems to be that the quick nature of the events and the lack of a base for the assumption that the clap itself launched Shigaraki downwards call the High 6-C variant of the calc into question. However, I disagree with both parts of this.

For one, the aircrafts being able to move that quickly for Star to do these movements in rapid succession is supported. The aircrafts themselves can move alongside Star and catch her landings, showing that they are comparable in speed to her. As such, given the high speeds that Star and Shigaraki are at, they are very much capable of crossing such a large distance in such a short amount of time.

As for the clap itself... I'm not sure why it launching Shigaraki downward is considered a baseless assumption. The shockwave of the clap means there's a powerful force behind it, and the orientation of it indicates a diagonally downward movement, which would fall perfectly in line with where Shigaraki would be (that being at the edge of the cloud split) during her usage of Keraunos.
Damage3245 said:
The third point I'd like to make is just to circle back to the topic of what it means for the calc to be supported. As established up above, the method for the High 6-C takes the value from one panel's pixelscaling and applies to to a different panel to get an extremely high Dispersion Radius value of 54 km. It is worth stressing how large this value is because of all the possible values we can get for it, this value is the least supported.

If we took the Dispersion Radius directly from the Chapter 332 panel (which gets us 1.6 km), even if that figure is hard to believe, it is still supported by the visuals in these two panels from Chapter 331 here and here. You've mentioned it is possible for things to be consistently wrong and I don't deny that. It is possible... But I'm not claiming to know with absolute certainty what the "true" value is here. We're making approximations as best we can using the limited evidence and methods available to us.

And I can say at least that value taken from Chapter 332 is more supported than the 54 km radius is. Weighing up the balance of evidence doesn't tell me which one is exactly right, but it does tell me which one requires more assumptions or is less consistent. And what I've posted up above currently has me believing that the High 6-C calc is both.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't consider the figure you're using from Chapter 332 to be supported though, primarily due to the fact that the clouds have begun to recede back to their original positions. As mentioned by Therefir, clouds fill a vacuum at about 500 m/s (based on his source) so this is far from unrealistic either. The visuals you used from Chapter 331 also hardly work as support, as not only are they after the recession has begun, but they don't even fully show the split.

Using the instant that the split happens is best because there's no time for the clouds to begin receding back to fill the vacuum. As such, it gives the most accurate showing of the split's diameter. This pretty much circles back to what I mean by "consistently wrong." Sure, you may say they're more consistent, but they all suffer that critical flaw that using the instant the feat happens lacks. And to me, that flaw is fatal enough to render these other panels inferior pieces of evidence.
 
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Le bump (feel free to take your time tho I just don't want this thread to completely die out)

Also I gotta edit my response because some of the links I used stopped working
 
Hey there. Sorry about that and thanks for the wait. I'll make my next post as soon as I can.

I had to do a bit of research earlier in the week into cloud calcs which delayed my response, but I should be able to work on it soon.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Not forgotten, just busy. A response to the post above is going to have to be a big one and for the past few days I've just had time to leave short posts on the forum.
Click to expand...
Ah nah I completely understand, its my first day off work and without other complications in 4 days so I actually have time to look back at threads in detail

Sorry bout that
 
Won't be able to post tonight, but I have free time tomorrow to finish my counter-argument.

EDIT: Going to need to push it to Friday to gather some scans for it, but I have what I believe to be a solid counter-argument prepared.
 
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@CloverDragon03 Before I post I just want to make sure we're on the same page. This is the calc that you have no issues with using, right?
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I believe Therefir has already explained this point. This shot cannot be used as a measure of the split's width because it's well after the initial split, as the clouds were filling up the vacuum created by the split, as explained by him. It's not arbitrary selectiveness, it's accounting for this fact by using the panel where the split directly happens so that none of it has been filled up. The altitude and thickness are not affected, given the cylindrical nature of the split, so we can use that panel from Chapter 332 for those things specifically.
Click to expand...

I've been doing some more thinking regarding this point and I realized that the argument you're trying to use here actually goes against your position, not in favor of it.

To explain what I mean, this is how the clouds would be modelled as using the measurements of the calc, prior to the cloud split taking place:

RBOHcyI.png


Both the cloud thickness, diameter and distance above the ocean below it are to scale with the calc (except obviously it'd be a disc, not a line).

And here is what it would look like after the cloud split with the white section denoting the vacuum that is created and the grey at the edges being the cloud that was pushed outward:

DNAT7Nw.png


Do you see an issue with this?

The air would start flowing inward from the closest and least affected volumes of air, in other words above and below the cloud split. The clouds are on the edges of the split; even though some air would be flowing back inwards from the edges, that isn't going to cause the cloud split above to look like this in a matter of seconds or this in a matter of a minute at most.

The air flowing back in from everywhere else that isn't the sides would occupy the space and prevent the clouds from rushing back in that far.

So this argument cannot be used against the later visuals of the clouds, because even with that rationale the clouds will not be in the position that they're shown to be.

CloverDragon03 said:
I'm not denying there is horizontal movement. However, there is a clear vertical component, as shown by the movement of the clouds and the positioning of the fist of Star's avatar. As shown here, there is a clear vertical component present.

As for after the clap takes place, the crux of the argument seems to be that the quick nature of the events and the lack of a base for the assumption that the clap itself launched Shigaraki downwards call the High 6-C variant of the calc into question. However, I disagree with both parts of this.

For one, the aircrafts being able to move that quickly for Star to do these movements in rapid succession is supported. The aircrafts themselves can move alongside Star and catch her landings, showing that they are comparable in speed to her. As such, given the high speeds that Star and Shigaraki are at, they are very much capable of crossing such a large distance in such a short amount of time.

As for the clap itself... I'm not sure why it launching Shigaraki downward is considered a baseless assumption. The shockwave of the clap means there's a powerful force behind it, and the orientation of it indicates a diagonally downward movement, which would fall perfectly in line with where Shigaraki would be (that being at the edge of the cloud split) during her usage of Keraunos.
Click to expand...

The point about the jet fighters looks conjectural to me without actual proof of their movement here. It's not just a matter about the speed being plausible; you haven't shown any movement executed by the jet fighters during that scene.

Shigaraki isn't shown to be launched downward either with great force. It just looks to me like you're requiring additional assumptions for the depiction of events to make sense in your version.

Why should we go with the version that requires more assumptions?

CloverDragon03 said:
I wouldn't consider the figure you're using from Chapter 332 to be supported though, primarily due to the fact that the clouds have begun to recede back to their original positions. As mentioned by Therefir, clouds fill a vacuum at about 500 m/s (based on his source) so this is far from unrealistic either. The visuals you used from Chapter 331 also hardly work as support, as not only are they after the recession has begun, but they don't even fully show the split.

Using the instant that the split happens is best because there's no time for the clouds to begin receding back to fill the vacuum. As such, it gives the most accurate showing of the split's diameter. This pretty much circles back to what I mean by "consistently wrong." Sure, you may say they're more consistent, but they all suffer that critical flaw that using the instant the feat happens lacks. And to me, that flaw is fatal enough to render these other panels inferior pieces of evidence.
Click to expand...

I addressed the clouds receding back into position above.

I think once that has been ruled out, the objection of "We can't use anything other than the panel where the feat took place" holds a lot less weight now.
 
Damage, aren't you planning to revise the cloud calcs anyway? Wouldn't that affect this feat regardless of what end, scaling or method we choose?
 
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