Multipliers - Clarifications and regulations

[LordGinSama]

Hello, as you can see by the title of this thread this'll be going over the current.

This is in regards to some inconsistents regarding on how we treat our multiplier standards. Going by the wiki page multipliers are only to be given out if they're outright stated, and here's the actual passage from the page.

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.



Now this is dandy, ignoring the fact that's there's few more alternatives to this rule, that the staff members here have already approved. For instance This thread in particular opened up a new method of accepting multipliers, that being combined attacks. As opposed to being outright stated an alternative was to have "combined attacks." Meaning two comparable characters combine their attacks to attack another character.


In other words, Character A and B are comparable at 7-A ( both equal to 400 Megatons. ) attack character C with a combined attack ( which would be an attack with 800 Megatons. ) and character C tanks said attack. Ergo character C would be 800 Megatons for tanking the combined attack of two 400 Megaton characters. This method was accepted by staff members, therefore this should be noted in the multipliers page that combined attacks is also an acceptable method of scaling.

 

[KingTempest]

Following

 

[Thelastmlg]

I agree.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean the logic entirely makes sense to me, but it's not a multiplier, it's addition based, multiplier implies multiplication of a value, while this is an addition based scaling of Person A's Power+Person B's Power

 

[Purgy]

My biggest issue with this is that, in the One Piece example you're using, their attacks don't literally fuse into one, it's three individual attacks used at the same time against the same opponent.

If a character had two arms and had an AP of 200 Megatons while using both simultaneously, and then he grew two extra arms and punched with all 4 simultaneously, would his AP now be 400 Megatons?

Maybe if the attacks literally became one instead of three attacks individually then I could see it being given a multiplier (even though that as well technically goes against what the page says).

Regardless, I'm curious what others think.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I mean the logic entirely makes sense to me, but it's not a multiplier, it's addition based, multiplier implies multiplication of a value, while this is an addition based scaling of Person A's Power+Person B's Power

I mean technically that could be a 2× boost, which is Multiplication.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean technically that could be a 2× boost, which is Multiplication.

I mean yeah, addition and multiplication can end up having the same starting results and ending results, for instance...

2+2 = 2x2

But Multiplication and Addition are not the same things, I mean additions for scaling happen all the time, someone who is 1 Megaton can absorb a power that is 1 Gigaton and they'd scale to the 1.001 Gigaton, difference is that one value is significantly lower than another, so no one ever considers it as noticeable

This just flat out doesn't apply to multipliers since it's an addition based situation

 

[LordGinSama]

Their attacks objectively combine into one as evident by the visuals and the literal name of the attack they used. At least in Luffy's and Zoro's case we see their blow fused as one.




Note I wasn't even using a One Piece example, I wasn't aware that 7-A automatically meant One Piece or combined attacks. Anyway, that's for a different topic at hand.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree that this subject of someone scaling to a combined attack should be mentioned somewhere, just not the multiplier page

 

[Purgy]

Their attacks objectively combine into one as evident by the visuals and the literal name of the attack they used. At least in Luffy's and Zoro's case we see their blow fused as one.
Note I wasn't even using a One Piece example, I wasn't aware that 7-A automatically meant One Piece or combined attacks. Anyway, that's for a different topic at hand.

No, they're only combining the name because it is in essence a "combination attack", their attacks aren't literally combined together though which is evident from Sanji kicking the Pacifista in the shoulder whereas Luffy and Zoro are hitting it in the torso.

If we treat individual attacks used at the same time as all of them added together, then I'm fine with this, but I'm not sure that's the case.

 

[LordGinSama]

According to the official colored scans Luffy's and Zoro's attacks did indeed become one, Sanji on the other hand targeted his shoulder. Zoro's and Luffy's case are blatant and objective going by what we're actually shown.



But as I said, that's for a different thread so let's not derail here.



I see several characters attacking at all once, at the same exact time in the same spot as being comparable to a 3x multiplier. That's still 3 comparable forces impacting a singular opponent at the same exact time.

 

[Purgy]

Alright, we'll discuss it in the One Piece thread if this gets accepted.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I agree, i mean, we consider getting hitnin the belly as enough for you whole body to scale with no exception, if you get hit in three different spots by comparable attacks, is the same getting gut punched by an attack 3 times as powerful, hell even if there was an second long delah it should still scale.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean if three people are all using an attack at once and it is called a combination based attack, then I'd be ok with the idea of someone scaling to the value of of the combined attack, makes a lot of sense to me

 

[KingTempest]

I'm busy right now, but I'll see what I can type up to add to the wiki (I'll run it by here when I'm done), because there are clearly exceptions to the rule, and some people might misinterpret what the OP stated.

 

[Antvasima]

I moved this thread to the staff forum, as it concerns a wiki policy issue.

Should I notify some staff members about this thread?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think the OP title and explanation should change just so that it doesn’t say Multiplier, cause as I said before, it isn’t a Multiplier

 

[Damage3245]

I mean if three people are all using an attack at once and it is called a combination based attack, then I'd be ok with the idea of someone scaling to the value of of the combined attack, makes a lot of sense to me

I don't think that should be used as the basis of a multiplier though.

Let's say, for example, Character A gets punched four times simultaneously by four punches of equal strength from Character B; once in the head, once in the shoulder, once in the torso and once in the leg. And these four attacks only did moderate damage.

Then let's say Character A gets kicked in the shoulder by Character C, and their shoulder gets seriously damaged/split open.

Does that mean we should multiply Character B's AP by 4 to get Character C's AP?

I don't think so. Just because Character C surpassed Character B's damage on a specific area of their body doesn't mean their attack was equal or greater than the combined force of all of Character B's simultaneous attacks. It just means that their kick on the shoulder was superior to Character B's punch on the shoulder.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Honestly it seems like a very case by case scenario, some verses have a universal energy system where energy and elemental attacks are visually shown combining, but there are also series without a universal energy system that if multiple characters combined their physical attacks they should be doing 2x the damage and I can also see an opponent scaling to them, I mean Deku and All Might manage to punch that giant cube together in the first MHA movie, would you not call that a combined attack just because it was physical? I don't think we need to be that strict about this stuff, also it should be noted that a character should only scale if they tank the attack, if a guy gets hit by 3 people combining their attacks and he is one-shot or crippled severely, then no, I don't agree with scaling him to the combined result, but if these 3 guys combine their attacks and he is unfazed and undamaged by said attack, then yeah, I can see him scaling to their combined power

 

[Thelastmlg]

If the dude tanks 2 characters attacks and then the third one severely dmagaes him, the intention is for character C to be >>> character A and B combined, so it is either PIS, an outlier or Charcter C is stronger.

So like aubin said, it is a case by case scenario.

 

[ElixirBlue]

the intention is for character C to be >>> character A and B combined,

If the dude tanks 2 characters attacks and then the third one severely dmagaes him,

so it is either PIS, an outlier or Charcter C is stronger.

XD

 

[DontTalkDT]

I disagree with combination attacks being the sum of the power. Have ten people use a battering ram and it won't end up having the power of 10 battering rams combined. If you put two torches (or fire sources in general) together the flame also doesn't get twice as hot/powerful.
There are just a bunch of issues regarding mechanics with how power is combined. Unless the verse tells us that the attack is the sum we shouldn't assume it.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Come on elixir, you really think that sonic >>> tails? Lmao, tell me how many tails does sonic have? None, tails has 2, therefore his stats are twice as big as sonic's

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I disagree with combination attacks being the sum of the power. Have ten people use a battering ram and it won't end up having the power of 10 battering rams combined. If you put two torches (or fire sources in general) together the flame also doesn't get twice as hot/powerful.
There are just a bunch of issues regarding mechanics with how power is combined. Unless the verse tells us that the attack is the sum we shouldn't assume it.

To be fair, I don't think any of us have used examples like 10 people using a battering ram or 2 torches together, we're more talking two people combining energy or magic attacks

 

[DontTalkDT]

To be fair, I don't think any of us have used examples like 10 people using a battering ram or 2 torches together, we're more talking two people combining energy or magic attacks

You were talking about stuff like Deku and All Might punching stuff together, which is battering ram in even worse, as the attacks aren't even combined to begin with and don't hit the exact same part of the target. (Which kinda excludes it from being a combination attack to begin with)

And if the rule doesn't even work for real life examples why would you assume it works for things whichs rules we can't even properly evaluate?

There are several things that could prevent straight up addition I can spontanously come up with. The "fusion" process of attacks itself can take power. And you need to invest more into controlling and compressing the power into a single attack, due to the added complexity and energy amount. Or alternatively, due to worse power control, the efficiency of the invested power can decrease. (Consider how BoS Naruto's bad power control made him spend many times more energy on the same technique than others. Combining things can have the same problem...) The powers can also partially cancel each other by crashing into each other if beam clash logic were to be applied.
As said, there are a bunch of reasons as for why the combining attacks can have diminishing returns. It's very speculative to assume perfect addition without evidence.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with DontTalkDT; methods like that would only be AoE, not raw AP. And it's already explained on a previous thread what the definition of damage stacking is and why it's not usable.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So verses that use combination attacks to give a multiplier for another character should be removed, or would this be a case by case thing?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Seems like we can only do the adding of AP when the fusion of attacks is stated to be a thing that happens, that the attacks do actually combine

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Seems like we can only do the adding of AP when the fusion of attacks is stated to be a thing that happens, that the attacks do actually combine

Are there any verses that currently do this?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Are there any verses that currently do this?

Fairy Tail does, Unison Raids are an in verse ability where two magics combine together to combine their strength, however some things will still need to change, the combined magic punch that Natsu and Gray did will no longer be valid likely, so that needs to go, I have no idea what other verses do this

 

[Zackra1799]

@DontTalkDT

So just to make sure I'm understanding this right, would what you are proposing invalidate current scaling of various combined feats, such as the All Might and Deku's combo punch each contributing 1/2 the feat itself?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m unsure about this. If two people each apply a force on something in the same direction, wouldn’t the total applied force be the sum of those forces? That’s how physics works if I remember correctly.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Fairy Tail does, Unison Raids are an in verse ability where two magics combine together to combine their strength, however some things will still need to change, the combined magic punch that Natsu and Gray did will no longer be valid likely, so that needs to go, I have no idea what other verses do this

So the unison raid is fone to use?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So the unison raid is fone to use?

They should be, but we don’t use any of them for scaling at the moment anyways, so it doesn’t really effect anything at all besides the Natsu and Gray punch if what Don’tTalk said is true

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

They should be, but we don’t use any of them for scaling at the moment anyways, so it doesn’t really effect anything at all besides the Natsu and Gray punch if what Don’tTalk said is true

I thought Mard Gear scales to 2x Natsu and Gray?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I thought Mard Gear scales to 2x Natsu and Gray?

That's the exact scaling I refer to when I say the Natsu and Gray punch, that's the thing that is in question here

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

That's the exact scaling I refer to when I say the Natsu and Gray punch, that's the thing that is in question here

Oh, I thought that was the unison raid.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with DontTalkDT.

Do we need to improve on any wordings in our Multipliers page?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So just to make sure I'm understanding this right, would what you are proposing invalidate current scaling of various combined feats, such as the All Might and Deku's combo punch each contributing 1/2 the feat itself?

If two characters together perform a feat with x Joules of power, then it's usually fine to assume that the total power contributed between them is x. So, if they likely contribute equal amounts of power assuming that each provided x/2 Joules of power would be fine.
I say usually since there are also exceptions such as Misaki's and Misaka's Liquid Proof Railgun where the power adds up to something even greater than their combined power output.
The problem would be the opposite. Say you have a character that has x Joules AP and character that has y Joules AP. If they do a combination attack it is wrong to assume that the attack has x+y Joules AP and that someone that tanks it hence has x+y durability.

Do we need to improve on any wordings in our Multipliers page?

If we say that this qualifies as a multiplier, then no.
However, people have pointed out that this isn't multiplier and they are at least technically correct.
Thing is, I'm not sure where else I would put an explanation regarding this. It's not enough to make a rule page for the sole purpose of writing this on it, in my opinion. Maybe one could make a powers & abilities page on combination attacks and add it on there?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure, and am very tired and distracted right now.

What do you think about DontTalkDT's suggestion @AKM sama and @Promestein ?