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Mugen Souls Animations

And again

>Spends multiple posts describing how powerful and superior to everyone else the villain is

>Then says that him having the best feat in the verse is an outlier.

I don't get this. How can you honestly say this?
 
Only one attack explicitely does anything to a sun, and it's a giant magic beam coming from a large magic circle that sets it up, the opposite of a casual energy blast. The other two attacks I think which you're referring to are the two you brought up from the 2nd game. Those have nothing to do with this discussion and come from gods, so the stronger people in the verse, but not as strong so as to not be comparable to the others. And no matter how casually you destroy a planet, it wouldn't justify jumping so many tiers as you're trying to argue it does.

@The Everlasting

How can you honestly just skip over the many times I've explained it? Just because you're superior to and stronger than some people to the point you scare them, it doens't mean at all that you're several tiers above their feats.
 
I'm not, but there are plenty of 5-A feats there. Also, even if it is an "Ultimate Move", these moves are still done with the character's own energy.
 
"Just because you're superior to and stronger than some people to the point you scare them, it doens't mean at all that you're several tiers above their feats."

Just what?

If I'm far, far stronger than every other character, and I have by far the best feats, how is it an outlier?

You treat it as if he doesn't have the better feats, but he does.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

I've heard several times that casually doing something is not enough to jump even a single tier unless they're one of the narrower ones. I'd be okay with 5-A or even a Likely 4-C for Sandy's feat if there was something in the story supporting it. But there isn't, the strongest stuff in the story revolves around single planets, either creating them, destroying them or eating them.

Maybe the best option to reach a compromise would be to try and calc how much energy it would take to create/destroy the original planet that later split in the 7 Worlds, which might give 5-A (I don't know much about this kind of stuff). But I'm not sure if it'd be okay to assume the size of the worlds, the only thing we know about them is that they each have 3 continents.

@The Everlasting

How does far, far stronger equal to "my feat nine tiers above 90% of the verse is legit and not an outlier when I'm beat by a party of characters without any feats clearly above Star level"?
 
"when he's beaten by a party characters without any feats clearly above Star level"

It's called powerscaling.
 
Because numerical difference in tiers frankly hardly matters for things like this, most of the time. Characters in fiction are as strong as they need to be, and being "Immensely stronger" or "Amped" allows for feats astronomically higher to not be considered outliers. In Dragon Ball Super, Goku got a new form and did a 3-A feat. Under your logic that would be an outlier since it's 4 tiers higher than his previous form.
 
Yamcha's best destructive feat of his own in Dragon Ball is Tier 8 or so, but we know that he is Planet level by the Android Saga since he's stated to be stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Yamcha's best destructive feat of his own in Dragon Ball is Tier 8 or so, but we know that he is Planet level by the Android Saga since he's stated to be stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku.
Click to expand...
When was it stated that Yamcha is stronger than Saiyan Saga Goku?
 
@The Everlasting

Powerscaling an entire verse to a single feat despite plenty of evidence against it just because he was one of the strongest people in the verse? The same faulty logic would make everyone in Toaru who's not a magic god Multi-Solar System level.

@Matthew Scroeder

Despite him getting a new form Vorgis still lost against the same party of characters who defeated his base form in a regular battle. That clearly doesn't allow for a huge jump in tiers. None of the characters in the party get a new form or a power up between those fights.

Sorry, I fail to see why you bring Yamcha up. There's no statement like that in the game.
 
@Apprentice

It's on his profile. Android 20 and 19 detect Yamcha's power and they state that it is "Abnormal" and "Surpasses all known human parameters", and they conclude it's Son Goku (They know what Goku's power during his fight with Vegeta is).

@Lazy

Did this happen all at once? Or at different points in the game? The characters in JRPGs at the start of the game tend to generally be just slight superhumans, but by the end of the games they are fighting world-destroying threats and such (See Chrono Trigger for a classic example of this. Crono goes from slight-superhuman swordsman to fighting Lavos)
 
@Lazy Hunter arnt they power scaling to 3 feats

Sandy's (the golden hair girl for people not familiar with the seires) star buster Also the reason people could call sandys star buster casual Is the "I didn't mean to go that far"/the look of utter befuddle ment of what her attack did Chou chou's peon ball/Syrma's ultimate soul (which vorgis scales to even if these moves Arnt done with exclusively the characters using them's power) And Defiled vorgises Galaxy Buster which seems to ether destroy 3 other galaxy's with the shockwave Or he also proceds to destroy 3 other galaxies
 
The feat that he says is only 4AUs is definitely Galaxy level, by the way. They zoom out so much even stars become invisible and it keeps zooming out until they reveal a galaxy. The game creators simply put a random number and didn't bother looking up the size of a galaxy in KM.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

The party fights Vorgis two times. Once after they have gone through 6 of the 7 Wolrds. When they arrive at the 7th, he's there and eats it. He easily defeats them (the battle is impossible to win as he's buffed so that he oneshots any of your characters). The party goes through the 6 worlds again to recover the fragments of Chou-Chou's power left during the creation of the 7 Worlds, meanwhile Vorgis is sleeping after eating.

After getting all fragments and defeating Belleria and convincing her to join the party, they once again confront Vorgis, who hasn't woken up (so he had no chances to increase his power, which was at "eating planets on his own without Belleria fragmenting them first" stage). The party wakes him up and they fight. They win. He's surprised, but eats the gem containing Belleria's former power as a god of destruction and Belleria herself, turning himself into a legit god of destruction. The party beats him again, without any power ups, new forms or anything. Chou-Chou didn't even have to use her former powers as a goddess to win.

The so-called 7 World Galaxy is apparently of solar-system size with a single sun and a ship that can't even travel at good cosmic speeds being able to carry them from world to world in a short amount of time, days, tops. Planets in it are sometimes so close to each other to appear of similar size in the same frame. Size doesn't make any sense in the game.

ED: It's getting pretty late, so I'll leave this here and return tomorrow when I have time.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
So the characters are much stronger in the second time they fight him.
Click to expand...
To add on to this Chou Chou Beats ballaria Alone While holding back Just before the final fight with vorgis
 
I'd have to side with Matt on this. This is basic powerscaling. For example, inThe Legend of Zelda, the Triforce's best feat is Planet level. Demise, a character lesser than the Triforce, created a realm with a sun as a battleground, and there wasn't emphasis on the feat at all. But he's still Star level, and others are scaled to that.

For the AU thing. Yeah, that's just numbers. Knuckle Joe has a feat that's 5-A. Kirby did it better, and it's only calc'd at 201 megatons in game.
 
Also @matthew This is like 4 hours late but I just noticed this "A new form Vorgis still lost against the same party of characters who defeated his base form in a regular battle. That clearly doesn't allow for a huge jump in tiers. None of the characters in the party get a new form or a power up between those fights." Defield Vorgis I.E. The new form of vorgis lazy Hunter is describing Lost to the main party JUST after they beat his base form as in its a back to back fight

However Before they went to fight vorgis again They went through the 6 worlds again Going through What altis Describes as "Dangerous areas"

Meaning they got stronger Before fighting Vorgis again (and then fighting his powered up form)
 
@MatthewSchroeder

Before you try to argue that angle, they went from losing to base Vorgis who eats planets to being capable of defeating him and a powered up form in regular battles. They obviously became stronger, but that doesn't mean Deified Vorgis' attack animation became any more justified.

@Jesterofgames

I haven't play Z yet, but given that the game appears to happen in a different galaxy I guess they do. In that case the ship definitely had to get improved, since Ryuto explicitely considers thousands of kilometers in a few minutes to be an impossible feat in the first game.

Peon Ball doesn't scale to anyone given that it's not the power of Chou-Chou or a single character. I don't know how Ultimate Soul works, but isn't it Peon Ball's replacement for the 2nd game? In that case I assume it's the same deal as the Peon Ball, as support ultimate not using the power of the MC, Syrma.

Going through the six worlds again made them strong enough to be able to fight Vorgis (not stomp him, a regular battle, though game mechanics means you can overleve and outstat him so that you oneshot him) after losing the first time. Then they defeat his Deified form without any powerups nor time in between the level your equipment, which is where you get most of your stats from.

Belleria without her goddess powers has no feats beyond being roughly comparable to Chou-Chou and a vague Planet level feat if you're including her attack animation. They still had some time to rest before the final battle, which is not the case for the final battle with Vorgis.

@The real cal howard

Powerscale to what exactly?

And the AUs might be a goof of the creators, but it still shows the creators have no clue about the size and scale of cosmic things, as I have repeatedly pointed out. The 7 World Galaxy in the game is closer in scale to a solar system, with 1 important sun close to the seven planets and the planets close enough to each other that a slow starship can comfortably travel between them.
 
@LazyHunter

Please explain your argument.

You keep saying that the villain's best feat is an outlier despite who massively stronger than everyone he is, and you insist that the heroes defeating him at the end is proof despite agreeing that they are much stronger.

This makes no sense. Passages of times and increases in strength perfectly justify this.

"but it still shows the creators have no clue about the size and scale of cosmic things"

So you are repeatedly willing to argue going with the story feat saying that the attacks contradict the writers intention, and now you agree that the writers have no clue about the power of the characters?

It's either one or the other, Lazy. I am sorry but you are contradicting yourself a lot. Both your argument relating to the outlier and the argument relating to the authorial intent are contradictory.
 
@LazyHunter

What I meant by Chou Chou beating bell while holding back Is Up until that point She never fought bell alone And Not while holding back or if she did It was never stated as such
 
@LazyHunter

...Again? You and Everlasting keep repeating this and demand I explain myself when I have done so several times, at this point you are just choosing to ignore it everytime I post it. I'll just copy some of those asnwers.

How can you honestly just skip over the many times I've explained it? Just because you're superior to and stronger than some people to the point you scare them, it 'doesn't' mean at all that you're several tiers above their feats.

How does far, far stronger equal to "my 'feat' nine tiers above 90% of the verse is legit and not an outlier when 'I'm beat' by a party of characters without any feats clearly above Star level"?

Powerscaling an entire verse to a single feat despite plenty of evidence against it just because he was one of the strongest people in the verse? The same faulty logic would make everyone in Toaru who's not a magic god Multi-Solar System level.

You're the ones claiming he's massively stronger than anyone else. I just said that he, Belleria are Chou-Chou are the 3 strongest people in the game. He was much stronger than the party the first time you fight him, but he still only beats them and flicks their ship away. Nobody is massively injured or beaten near death or anything. You can stomp people just by being higher in your shared tier or by being 1 tier above them. It doens't require you to be as strong as you're trying to make it look like.

And no, I'm just saying that the party got strong enough to go from losing to his base form to winning against that and a powered up form that would scale to original Belleria, who's somewhat comparable to Chou-Chou's goddess form. Explain how that contradicts any of my arguments, because it doesn't.

Do you have any proof that the writers of the story are the ones to make the attack animations or to include those numbers? No contradiction there.

@Jesterofgames

The two are comparable with Chou-Chou being noted as stronger, so it's not a surprise that she can defeat her alone when the party never seems to have much trouble fighting her during the game.
 
You haven't actually showed ANY evidence of it being contradictory. You just keep making giant posts repeating the same point again and again. A point that myself, Everlasting and Howard have already debunked, yet you repeat.

This is basic powerscaling.

I already explained you that numerical differences between tiers hardly matters at all.

Don't know about ToAru, but you are ignoring that there are multiple feats ranging from 5-A to 3-C before the final boss, you are lying in saying that it is a single feat.

I already explained how it contradicts your arguments, read above. And stop using arguments of authorial intent, it is completely irrelevant.
 
You didn't debunk anything, you're just saying it scales despite making zero sense over and over again without giving any explanation beyond stating it's not an outlier (it is), ignoring any answer that you can't nitpick (like you're doing now ignoring how the only other galaxy feat doesn't scale to anyone and how the only other feats in the game's animatioons higher than Planet level are two 5-As and one 4-C) and stating that other rpg verses accept attack animations (when apparently we've reached the consensus that this should be a case by case basis).

I give up. I like the game, but I don't like it enough to keep bashing my head against a wall, especially when half of my points are being ignored or twisted and I'm the only one debating my side. I concede on using the attack animations.
 
I frankly feel the same way you do in regards to my own arguments.

Can we please talk in real time in chat? I think we could cover a lot more ground there and understand each other much easier. I don't want this to be a bad discussion.
 
Well, I hope that there are no bad feelings between you, but if the attack animations are going to be used, somebody needs to rewrite the Mugen Souls statistics, with included accurate explanations.
 
Nevertheless, since you, Howard, and The Everlasting seem to agree, the Mugen Souls pages need to have their statistics rewritten.
 
I'm a bit unsure here, while I do agree with the following: "Just because you're superior to and stronger than some people to the point you scare them, it 'doesn't' mean at all that you're several tiers above their feats." I only do so under the condition that said person has no feats at all to indicate he's several tiers above them. If he just so happens to have it, then I think we can afford to give some leeway here. However, it's still possible that the feat which places him that high can still be anomalous; that can be found out by looking at literally every other feat he does and looking at the context behind them e.g performing galaxy level moves exclusively in gameplay whilst in the plot a stated "hardest attack" only destroys a planet.
 
So, is anybody willing to adjust the page statistics?
 
I was always under the impression that the profiles were made with the animations but Lazy made the threads to remove them.
 
I think that the old profiles were deleted due to very poor quality, and then LazyHunter recreated them, but I may misremember.
 
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