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Scaling to the two other gods of destruction would make her Planet level.
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Mugen Souls Animations
- Thread starter LazyHunter
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I also really don't get your issue with the attack animations. The game is chibi and humorous in nature. After the girl blows up the sun it goes dark and she turns around with a goofy face looking like "Oh noes, what have I done".
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- #43
As I've explained, the attack animations are inconsistent with the power displayed in the actual story by the strongest characters in the game and how the weaker characters react to these strongest characters. I fail to see how the game using chibi designs changes this fact.
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No it's not inconsistent. Your only argument is "They are scared of the main villain which does a planet level feat". If we went by this logic everything would be downgraded as fictional characters are always getting impressed by stuff lower than their own feats and the feats of weaker people.
And the style of the game proves that your realism concerns don't matter much. The game is clearly meant to be humorous and silly in tone, hence the silly dialogue, attack names and attack animations.
And the style of the game proves that your realism concerns don't matter much. The game is clearly meant to be humorous and silly in tone, hence the silly dialogue, attack names and attack animations.
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Yes, it is.
In the 1st game there are 3 characters above anyone else: Chou-Chou, Belleria and Vorgis. They have the best story feats.
Chou-Chou created a planet big enough that its chunks became the 7 Worlds, and was displayed as bigger than her own creation.
Belleria was a god of destruction. She "destroyed" (fragmented) planets, letting her pet Vorgis eat the remains. After Belleria befriended Chou-Chou her jealousy and original purpose as a god ended up with Vorgis trying to eat half the original planet. Chou-Chou got angry and fought Belleria, so the two are comparable. Their fight caused the original planet to break into 7 parts, and Chou-Chou sacrificed her powers to save those chunks and everyone on them, creating the 7 Worlds.
Vorgis, after gorging on Shampurus for tens of thousands of years, became planet sized and strong enough to eat planets on his own. The party tries to fight him at this point and is soundly defeated, leaving them scared of him and uncertain as to how to defeat him.
The party recovers Chou-Chou's power and confronts him again. The party is only confident in their chances due to having Chou-Chou with her powers back + the depowered Belleria. They defeat Vorgis, making them Planet level by scaling in the story. Vorgis absorbs Belleria's original powers and Belleria herself. Despite this he's still defeated by the party sans Belleria. The party has not grown stronger and there hasn't been any powerups in between the two fights. So Deified Vorgis has not increased his power to the point he can defeat the party capable of defeating his base form, despite presumably them spending some energy and strength to do so and Chou-Chou not using her goddess powers at any point of these fights.
In the 1st game there are 3 characters above anyone else: Chou-Chou, Belleria and Vorgis. They have the best story feats.
Chou-Chou created a planet big enough that its chunks became the 7 Worlds, and was displayed as bigger than her own creation.
Belleria was a god of destruction. She "destroyed" (fragmented) planets, letting her pet Vorgis eat the remains. After Belleria befriended Chou-Chou her jealousy and original purpose as a god ended up with Vorgis trying to eat half the original planet. Chou-Chou got angry and fought Belleria, so the two are comparable. Their fight caused the original planet to break into 7 parts, and Chou-Chou sacrificed her powers to save those chunks and everyone on them, creating the 7 Worlds.
Vorgis, after gorging on Shampurus for tens of thousands of years, became planet sized and strong enough to eat planets on his own. The party tries to fight him at this point and is soundly defeated, leaving them scared of him and uncertain as to how to defeat him.
The party recovers Chou-Chou's power and confronts him again. The party is only confident in their chances due to having Chou-Chou with her powers back + the depowered Belleria. They defeat Vorgis, making them Planet level by scaling in the story. Vorgis absorbs Belleria's original powers and Belleria herself. Despite this he's still defeated by the party sans Belleria. The party has not grown stronger and there hasn't been any powerups in between the two fights. So Deified Vorgis has not increased his power to the point he can defeat the party capable of defeating his base form, despite presumably them spending some energy and strength to do so and Chou-Chou not using her goddess powers at any point of these fights.
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That just means that the character is STRONGER than their feats.
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Lawd have mercy, Nipponverse and your over the top awesomeness lol
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- Thread starter
- #48
But they don't have any feats in-story, and the attack animations of some weaker characters are significantly higher than those of other characters and signifcantly higher than any story feat.
By his own words, Vorgis became able to eat a planet on his own not too long before the 1st time you fight him, as he's been stranded in an asteroid field without being able to move while the depowered Belleria fed him Shampurus for thousands of years. You see Belleria feed him Shampurus regularly during the story prior to the fight so he was still recovering. After eating Soil World he goes to sleep and doesn't wake up until the party confronts him and wakes him up at the end of the game, so he had no opportunity to grow stronger.
By his own words, Vorgis became able to eat a planet on his own not too long before the 1st time you fight him, as he's been stranded in an asteroid field without being able to move while the depowered Belleria fed him Shampurus for thousands of years. You see Belleria feed him Shampurus regularly during the story prior to the fight so he was still recovering. After eating Soil World he goes to sleep and doesn't wake up until the party confronts him and wakes him up at the end of the game, so he had no opportunity to grow stronger.
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@LazyHunter
Why are you so focused on feats? Scaling is still a thing. It's like saying Cell is weaker than Frieza because Frieza has better feats.
Why are you so focused on feats? Scaling is still a thing. It's like saying Cell is weaker than Frieza because Frieza has better feats.
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Dude, stop bringing up in-story. The feats happen in the attacks.
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Didn't vorgis have to shrink a planet to eat it?
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"Goku and Vegeta were terrified of Kid Buu's Planet-busting powers. This means that all feats prior to that were outliers."The Everlasting said:
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@The Everlasting
Because to scale first you need feats. The valid feats in the game are those that happen in the story.
@Matthew Schroeder
I disagree. Nice strawman attempt.
@Jesterofgames
He did. The planet wasn't harmed at all when he swallowed it since he didn't digest it.
Because to scale first you need feats. The valid feats in the game are those that happen in the story.
@Matthew Schroeder
I disagree. Nice strawman attempt.
@Jesterofgames
He did. The planet wasn't harmed at all when he swallowed it since he didn't digest it.
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@LazyHunter
"You need feats"
>I show feats
"Those feats don't count"
>I show that they happen all the time
"No, but main villain's best feat is Planet level and he's far stronger than the main cast"
>We find out that he also has a Multi-Galaxy level feat
"No, but that's an outlier"
>Scaling is a thing
"I agree but we need feats"
Frankly, this thread is such a circular discussion at this point, no offense. But this is what's happening in a nutshell.
"You need feats"
>I show feats
"Those feats don't count"
>I show that they happen all the time
"No, but main villain's best feat is Planet level and he's far stronger than the main cast"
>We find out that he also has a Multi-Galaxy level feat
"No, but that's an outlier"
>Scaling is a thing
"I agree but we need feats"
Frankly, this thread is such a circular discussion at this point, no offense. But this is what's happening in a nutshell.
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Yes, but they do Planet level and higher feats in Special Attacks all the time. 9 examples in fact from two videos, potentially a lot more from bosses.Sera Loveheart said:
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Let me put it this way:
A. Character is galaxy level but the greatest feat they show in the story is planet level. We can accept other characters scaling to them by having comparable feats.
B. Character is planet level because the greatest feat they shown in story is planet level but they have attacks that show them busting galaxies. Unless there's some other game or a statement or something that proves they are galaxy level that feat is not legit.
Simple.
A. Character is galaxy level but the greatest feat they show in the story is planet level. We can accept other characters scaling to them by having comparable feats.
B. Character is planet level because the greatest feat they shown in story is planet level but they have attacks that show them busting galaxies. Unless there's some other game or a statement or something that proves they are galaxy level that feat is not legit.
Simple.
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@Sera
And there's over 10 feats above Planet level from weaker and comparable characters. Limiting the verse to 5-B is frankly wrong.
And there's over 10 feats above Planet level from weaker and comparable characters. Limiting the verse to 5-B is frankly wrong.
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@Matthew Schroeder
You could at least present my arguments like I did.
Feats in the attack animations don't count, the story takes precedence. The only new info you brought to the table were 3, possibly 4 Planet level animations that wouldn't change the rating of the characters anyway. So no, those feats don't happen all the time, literally 3 out of 23 playable characters have an attack animation better than Planet level (Assuming Soul's is better), most don't even have Planet level ones. Even if we accepted attack animations, the 2 animations involving galaxies would still be big outliers in a Planet to Star level verse. Most of the characters in the verse are scaled to the Planet level characters.
You could at least present my arguments like I did.
Feats in the attack animations don't count, the story takes precedence. The only new info you brought to the table were 3, possibly 4 Planet level animations that wouldn't change the rating of the characters anyway. So no, those feats don't happen all the time, literally 3 out of 23 playable characters have an attack animation better than Planet level (Assuming Soul's is better), most don't even have Planet level ones. Even if we accepted attack animations, the 2 animations involving galaxies would still be big outliers in a Planet to Star level verse. Most of the characters in the verse are scaled to the Planet level characters.
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Unless there's something outright showing the character is galaxy level beyond an attack animation, it's not legit. Igniz has an attack when he literally busts a universe but no one in King of Fighters is universal, even when the attack is called "Universal Disintegration".
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No, they do count. You have done nothing but to argue for realism in a game that's clearly comedic and gag and has a chibi design.
Your arguments are basically incredulity, AoE Fallacy and misunderstanding what an outlier is.
Your arguments are basically incredulity, AoE Fallacy and misunderstanding what an outlier is.
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@Sera
Those two aren't exactly comparable.
Those two aren't exactly comparable.
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It's a verse where the best feat other than that is 6-C. You don't need to even explain why it is an outlier.
Meanwhile this verse has multiple planet level / large planet feats, a star level feat done by a sun goddess (Contextually makes sense), 2-3 galaxy level feat, and solar system level feat in creating a black hole.
Saying that the feats are outliers is straight up wrong.
Meanwhile this verse has multiple planet level / large planet feats, a star level feat done by a sun goddess (Contextually makes sense), 2-3 galaxy level feat, and solar system level feat in creating a black hole.
Saying that the feats are outliers is straight up wrong.
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I have to agree with lazyhunters reasoning. Story(especially in RPG's and fighting games and the like.) should take presedence over attacks used within game, as most of these are just presented to be flashy and cool looking for amusement purposes a majority of the time. If the story really has the god tiers clocked in at only Planet level, than anything shown within game play mechanics is likely an outlier or just plain inconsistent/irrelevant to what the characters can actually do lore wise. Overall my opinion is swayed towards Lazyhunter here.
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@Grudge
Same god-tier has a 3-B feat, and scaling is a thing. Kid Buu would be the first 5-B DBZ character if "characters being impressed" mattered. LazyHunter is only saying that the villain is impressive, going over multiple paragraphs for not-needed emphasis, and then says that he is only 5-B when he has a 3-B feat.
And the "Flashy and cool" argument is terrible. It only works out of verse. The authorial intentions for putting it there don't apply to inside universe. We treat fictional series as their own reality, hence why we calculate and quantify things.
Same god-tier has a 3-B feat, and scaling is a thing. Kid Buu would be the first 5-B DBZ character if "characters being impressed" mattered. LazyHunter is only saying that the villain is impressive, going over multiple paragraphs for not-needed emphasis, and then says that he is only 5-B when he has a 3-B feat.
And the "Flashy and cool" argument is terrible. It only works out of verse. The authorial intentions for putting it there don't apply to inside universe. We treat fictional series as their own reality, hence why we calculate and quantify things.
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@Grudge
LazyHunter's logic is that since the villains' best feats are Planet level and the heroes are scared of him, all the other feats are outliers.
Which is like saying that Frieza's High 5-A feat is an outlier because Goku and Vegeta are scared of Buu's planet busting attack.
LazyHunter's logic is that since the villains' best feats are Planet level and the heroes are scared of him, all the other feats are outliers.
Which is like saying that Frieza's High 5-A feat is an outlier because Goku and Vegeta are scared of Buu's planet busting attack.
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@Ever
And even that is false, since we found a 3-B feat for the villain, which he promptly said was an outlier even though he spends multiple multiple-paragraph posts talking about how impressive and powerful the villain is compared to the main cast.
So what's the deal here? It's one way or the other.
And even that is false, since we found a 3-B feat for the villain, which he promptly said was an outlier even though he spends multiple multiple-paragraph posts talking about how impressive and powerful the villain is compared to the main cast.
So what's the deal here? It's one way or the other.
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@Matthew Schroeder
Why? You haven't given a reason why other than the fact other verses here use them while still acknowledging some games do not, while I have explained in detail how they don't fit in the story and are actually in the minority.
The ony part of my argument related to realism is when I questioned the attack animations even happening. We've moved past that point a while ago, I didn't even mention it in my previous post.
Again, the Sun Goddess doesn't have a Star level feat, where did you even get that. The galaxy level Peon Ball is not even Chou-Chou's power, doesn't scale to anyone and by the video you yourself posted it's just 4.56 AUs wide, so even smaller than our solar system, which isn't even that far fetched considering the evidence of the 7 World "Galaxy"'s size I brought up earlier. The multi-galaxy attack of Deified Vorgis would be an outlier even if the attack animations wee to be accepted. Evidence of those being real black holes.
@The Everlasting
No. Dragon Ball actually has feats in the story (Frieza) and a statement supported by other sources (Cell) that make that idea silly. This verse has nothing like that in the story.
Why? You haven't given a reason why other than the fact other verses here use them while still acknowledging some games do not, while I have explained in detail how they don't fit in the story and are actually in the minority.
The ony part of my argument related to realism is when I questioned the attack animations even happening. We've moved past that point a while ago, I didn't even mention it in my previous post.
Again, the Sun Goddess doesn't have a Star level feat, where did you even get that. The galaxy level Peon Ball is not even Chou-Chou's power, doesn't scale to anyone and by the video you yourself posted it's just 4.56 AUs wide, so even smaller than our solar system, which isn't even that far fetched considering the evidence of the 7 World "Galaxy"'s size I brought up earlier. The multi-galaxy attack of Deified Vorgis would be an outlier even if the attack animations wee to be accepted. Evidence of those being real black holes.
@The Everlasting
No. Dragon Ball actually has feats in the story (Frieza) and a statement supported by other sources (Cell) that make that idea silly. This verse has nothing like that in the story.
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Your argument of "characters being impressed" at feats is what I was addressing, which is ridiculous.
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If there are two feats which highly exceed the average; grossly exceed whatever occurs in the actual storyline. I would be very leniant towards disregarding them.
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Also, why are you saying that the 3-B feat is an outlier when you keep going over how powerful he is compared to the rest fo the cast?
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Your arguments for the verse still don't work...
You're saying that a galaxy is only 4.56 AUs wide. You are saying that a black hole that sucks up multiple planet isn't a black hole (Which doesn't matter cause a vortex that can do that is casually 5-A at least). You say that the 3-B feat is an outlier despite CONSTANTLY talking about the main villain's superiority, and another character has a galaxy character.
It's not all about the story. 10+ feats mean more than 1 feat in this case. Your entire argument for the attacks revolve around "This is just meant to be cool and flashy!" because you don't want to accept that the characters are stronger than what you believe they are.
You're saying that a galaxy is only 4.56 AUs wide. You are saying that a black hole that sucks up multiple planet isn't a black hole (Which doesn't matter cause a vortex that can do that is casually 5-A at least). You say that the 3-B feat is an outlier despite CONSTANTLY talking about the main villain's superiority, and another character has a galaxy character.
It's not all about the story. 10+ feats mean more than 1 feat in this case. Your entire argument for the attacks revolve around "This is just meant to be cool and flashy!" because you don't want to accept that the characters are stronger than what you believe they are.
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@The Everlasting
It's not when the story has zero evidence of the characters being stronger than the feats presented. Trying to pretend this is somehow similar to the Dragon Ball example you posted is much more ridiculous-
@The Everlasting and Matthew Schroeder
The game literally gives yout the size of all Peon Balls you use, look at the bottom right corner. You can be impressive to and significantly more powerful than someone else without jumping 9 entire tiers. You can be soundly defeated or stomped by someone in the same tier or the 1 above that. Chou-Chou is not galaxy level. I don't know how may times I have to explain this to you, but the Peon Ball is independent of her and her power, so she doesn't scale to i.
IIRC You need actual evidence of a black hole working like a real life black hole to support it being a real black hole and not the usual "black hole"-lite seen in most fiction. Sharuru survivin on its center points to it not being a real blackhole.
It's not when the story has zero evidence of the characters being stronger than the feats presented. Trying to pretend this is somehow similar to the Dragon Ball example you posted is much more ridiculous-
@The Everlasting and Matthew Schroeder
The game literally gives yout the size of all Peon Balls you use, look at the bottom right corner. You can be impressive to and significantly more powerful than someone else without jumping 9 entire tiers. You can be soundly defeated or stomped by someone in the same tier or the 1 above that. Chou-Chou is not galaxy level. I don't know how may times I have to explain this to you, but the Peon Ball is independent of her and her power, so she doesn't scale to i.
IIRC You need actual evidence of a black hole working like a real life black hole to support it being a real black hole and not the usual "black hole"-lite seen in most fiction. Sharuru survivin on its center points to it not being a real blackhole.
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Imagine reading a manga and expecting the characters to perform the best feat ever every Volume? Imagine reading a comic and expecting top-tier feats every storyline (Oh wait, biased people actually do this)? Imagine reading a book series and expecting every fight to be full of destruction and top tier feats?
And when feats do show up, you expect them all to line up exactly...
People need to start to understanding that feats don't have to line up exactly.
The character of Superman has several 4-B feats, but he also has 6-A, 5-C, 5-B, 5-A, 4-C and High 4-C feats. Are these inconsistent? Not really, what they actually do is show that he can do several feats in the planetary and cosmic scale. So when he shows a 4-B feat it's not out of nowhere and can be accepted given the history of the character.
The Mugen Souls characters easily destroying planets, large planets and stars may be feats in different tiers, but they are all mutually supportive of the fact that these characters have cosmic feats.
And when feats do show up, you expect them all to line up exactly...
People need to start to understanding that feats don't have to line up exactly.
The character of Superman has several 4-B feats, but he also has 6-A, 5-C, 5-B, 5-A, 4-C and High 4-C feats. Are these inconsistent? Not really, what they actually do is show that he can do several feats in the planetary and cosmic scale. So when he shows a 4-B feat it's not out of nowhere and can be accepted given the history of the character.
The Mugen Souls characters easily destroying planets, large planets and stars may be feats in different tiers, but they are all mutually supportive of the fact that these characters have cosmic feats.
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The main villains would definitely scale given how you spend like, 8 posts alone explaining over an over how stronger they are than anything in the verse. And the size there is definitely wrong given the visual size.
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@Matthew Schroeder
Mangas, comics and book series feats always happen in the story, which is not the case here. This is a single story with a couple of Planet level feats. Even accepting the animations, most characters don't destroy planets, 2 destroy a few, 1 destroys a star. All of those are their ultimate attacks, not "casual feats". A 3-B feat is an oulier in that lineup, especially when the character doing it is fought and defeated by those previous characters.
You can be stronger than someone and intimidate them without being several tiers above them.
Mangas, comics and book series feats always happen in the story, which is not the case here. This is a single story with a couple of Planet level feats. Even accepting the animations, most characters don't destroy planets, 2 destroy a few, 1 destroys a star. All of those are their ultimate attacks, not "casual feats". A 3-B feat is an oulier in that lineup, especially when the character doing it is fought and defeated by those previous characters.
You can be stronger than someone and intimidate them without being several tiers above them.
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@LazyHunter
The feats not happening in the story doesn't matter. JRPGs demonstrate the strength of their characters through Ultimate Moves. This is a standard in the genre across every JRPG ever.
Most of the animations show the characters not really struggling all that much when they do the attacks, such as the Star level feat which is played for laughs and finishes with the girl going "Oh gee, I screwed up".
Also, characters get stronger the more they progress over the story. This is also basic and is true of nearly any linear shounen-like storyline, and JRPGs have leveling systems and you fight progressively stronger enemies.
So main villain being 3-B might not be an outlier. Would only scale to EoG chars.
The feats not happening in the story doesn't matter. JRPGs demonstrate the strength of their characters through Ultimate Moves. This is a standard in the genre across every JRPG ever.
Most of the animations show the characters not really struggling all that much when they do the attacks, such as the Star level feat which is played for laughs and finishes with the girl going "Oh gee, I screwed up".
Also, characters get stronger the more they progress over the story. This is also basic and is true of nearly any linear shounen-like storyline, and JRPGs have leveling systems and you fight progressively stronger enemies.
So main villain being 3-B might not be an outlier. Would only scale to EoG chars.
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@Matthew Schroeder
It does matter. The feats here don't fit the story, and you still haven't challenged that in any way except repeating the argument that they count because they are used in some other verses.
Ultimate attacks are not casual attacks by any definition of the world, even if the animation doesn't show it for comedic purposes. A casual planet buster is not someone who uses an elaborate technique involving magic circles or a series of blows to destroy a planet. A casual planet buster is someone who punchs or uses a simple attack like a regular energy blast to destroy a planet.
Yes, that's how the party that soundly lost against Vorgis the planet eater the first time became strong enough to fight him and his powered up form. XP and level ups are canon in the game, some characters comment on them at the start of the fight or when leveling up. It still doesn't justify the attack animations or change the fact that 3-B animation is an outlier since no feat in-story or in attack animations come close.
It does matter. The feats here don't fit the story, and you still haven't challenged that in any way except repeating the argument that they count because they are used in some other verses.
Ultimate attacks are not casual attacks by any definition of the world, even if the animation doesn't show it for comedic purposes. A casual planet buster is not someone who uses an elaborate technique involving magic circles or a series of blows to destroy a planet. A casual planet buster is someone who punchs or uses a simple attack like a regular energy blast to destroy a planet.
Yes, that's how the party that soundly lost against Vorgis the planet eater the first time became strong enough to fight him and his powered up form. XP and level ups are canon in the game, some characters comment on them at the start of the fight or when leveling up. It still doesn't justify the attack animations or change the fact that 3-B animation is an outlier since no feat in-story or in attack animations come close.
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A LOT of the ultimate moves have characters blowing up planets with single punches or energy blasts, or even doing that to suns.
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