- 1,411
- 988
Do it!
They deserve it for spoiling the series to others every chance they get
Mfs ruined the anime for me
-
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Most well written characters for every tier
- Thread starter Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
- Start date
Do it!
They deserve it for spoiling the series to others every chance they get
Mfs ruined the anime for me
- 6,236
- 6,521
Really? I haven’t read AOT but the fans always praise Eren for being one of the best MC’s of all time.
- 18,393
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Give me the address of each of them, and I murder their souls.
RandomGuy2345
He/Him- 24,708
- 15,250
Can I join?
- 18,393
- 14,323
Sure, I need back up
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This is a bit confusing; there is an endpoint because there is consensus and standards, but when you put it in other instance, there is none while it still use the same setting as the former?
And sure...?
I still can't figure how it is different to vs. thread. Some people think this, and others that, and there is voting for which one seems to be most convincing.
Moreover, while it is undoubtedly subjective, there exist books that can be considered the best written for each year, just as there is a chosen most beautiful woman each year. However, there are objective factors that contribute to such distinctions, including originality, clarity, grammar and spelling, coherence, conciseness, audience awareness, purposefulness, and the author's voice and style, among others.
Despite its subjectivity, we can still determine the best option for the specified tier. By establishing a consensus, voting, and defining criteria, we can strive to make it acceptable to some extent, even if not entirely objective.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 22,784
- 22,312
Crab
this thread is chill
Coz it's entertaining.
You know how we make fun of Wasp? It's like that. This thread is filled with Wasps. I swear it, brother.
Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
- 1,640
Can't comprehend what you are saying here.
I never said it's different. I said that it is much more subjective.
That's not objective. That's just collective consensus (even that is debatable). Popularity=/=Better.
Obviously. However you can't really compare these factors without bias when two works are both "good" in a similar league.
That's just a popularity contest. If enough people think Goku is better written then he is. Don't act like a contest of popularity is a contest of better writing.
Also good luck with "defining criteria" for writing lmao. It takes next level arrogance to think you can quantify the art of writing.
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Neither I, thus I am confused. But whatever.
Interesting take, but I will say one thing: this statement is also subjective.
Not my point.
Not even my point as well. There is nothing to exist in those contests or arguments without some drops of biasness, even in vs. thread.
Not my point.
It's already defined, and you already proposed one for 2-A tier.
Your mindset of “everything should be objective and everything should be defined without biasness" actually let me ask if you live in reality or fantasy.
Last edited:
TheKingStrategist13
He/Him- 1,318
- 1,180
Alright, I already teased this before, but now I'm going to get into the Character of Shirou Emiya, though in order to do so, I will have to go over 4 different stories, due to Shirou's character drastically varying across all four stories, as well as a additional "Version" of him, EMIYA, who appear's in three of these said stories, and being of upmost importance to Shirou in 2 of those said stories.
Shirou's Origin for Fate/Stay Night
Shirou Emiya's core issue's for pretty much all version's of himself stem from one singular situation; Everything that occurred to Shirou before is hardly relevant, and as such, I will only go over the part that is relevant, and that's the events surrounding the end of the Fourth Holy Grail War. In order to not keep you here forever, I will simply address what is relevant about this war: As a result of the conflict, the city in which Shirou lived was burned down. Everyone he knew and loved, every other person- All gone. And yet, Shirou survived, rescued by the man who would become his surrogate father, Kiritsugu Emiya.
In having had this experience, Shirou's takeaway's were twofold; A development of Survivor's Guilt/PTSD over having been the only one to survive, and yet a Deep Admiration to the man who saved him, to the point of Idolization. Shirou Loathes that his own existence was the only one who was saved, and yet he praises the man who saved him. He question's why he was the one to be saved, and yet believes the one who saved him to be the ideal way of being. At the core of Shirou Emiya's character is contradiction; His conflict's almost always stem from said contradiction, and that contradiction is what made him the character he become's in the future. This contradiction, this origin, it is imperative to understanding the character that is Shirou Emiya.
Fate Route
Moving on, we have... I will admit, my least favorite Shirou, and the one I find the most boring, at least out of the Shirou Emiya's on this list. But even so, he is important to look at, because while he has arguably the least amount of Development of any Shirou, he is the template that goes on to show where the Other Shirou's, sans Oath Under Snow, originate from. Think of him as the starting point of Shirou in F/SN, and think of EMIYA, UBW, and HF as three possible "End's" for that Shirou to reach.
Shirou Emiya in this route, as well as the beginning of the other two route's, is someone who on the surface seems average. However, internally he is filled with many problem's. As a result of his obsession with his Surrogate Father, he developed a Ideal inspired by him; The Ideal of becoming a Hero. His main goal, ultimately, is to save as many live's as possible. However, to do so, he is willing to let himself be hurt or even killed- This stem's from his Survivor's Guilt. He doesn't know why he was the one who survived, yet he did. He doesn't perceive his life to have been worth being saved; That should have been someone else. Ergo, why should he care if his life is extinguished now? It's not that he's suicidal per say, but he could not care less if he dies so long as it's for the sake of saving other's.
Shirou Emiya is a mentally disturbed person; A man who has a set of Ideal's that will lead him nowhere, and a lack of self preservation that guarantee his Ideal's will go through at any cost. What most other's see as a Selfless goal that all should strive for, is in reality for Shirou Emiya a self destructive life style that shaft's Realism in favor of Idealism, blindly pursuing one's dream's with reckless abandon. This could be considered a selfish way of life, as a matter of fact- A existence that derives pleasure for oneself from the happiness of other's. In a way, it's almost appalling- This is a man who is unbothered by some of the most disturbing of things, and only solely focused on saving everyone possible.
This is a path that will lead him nowhere.
A path that will leave him with no one.
Nothing.
Nothing but broken Ideal's.
Nothing but EMIYA.
EMIYA
... In many ways, you can say, the Fate Route is the path where EMIYA is the natural conclusion. Heroic Spirit EMIYA Archer is a character that very much belongs to the same franchise as Shirou, but he is more than that; He IS Shirou. Shirou from a timeline where he pursued his ideal's to the very end, even giving his life to become a Counter Guardian; A Hero who appear's in time's of great strife to save lives.
He thought he would be saving lives, he thought he would be achieving world peace slowly, but it soon became apparent to EMIYA what saving people really means.
Time and time again, he was sent out. His mission? Kill this dictator. Kill these terrorists. Kill this treasonous wretch. Kill. Kill. Kill some more.
In order to save as many people as possible, he had to kill a vast number of other's. After all, while Shirou could be said to "Value the live's of all over the life of the one", Emiya would be said to have been forced to "Defend the lives of the many by eliminating the few". Needless to say, having one's own ideal's countered and being forced to against said ideal's could leave a man broken. EMIYA is a Cynical, twisted Mirror of Shirou; A Realistic Individual who is willing to justify the loss of life for the sake of achieving a greater goal. In that sense, EMIYA becomes the opposite of Shirou, while also remaining the same. While this conflict is touched on lightly in the Fate Route, it's most prevalent in...
Unlimited Blade Works
Unlimited Blade Works. A route made for Shirou and EMIYA inherently. Yes, perhaps one could say the main draw is the particular Love Interest, but the real crux of this Route is the Archer EMIYA and Shirou Emiya. While this route initially doesn't appear to be too different from the Fate Route, through his interaction's with character's in this route, he is forced to confront things about himself that Fate Route Ignored; He is presented with the possibility that his ideal is faulty, something that he never truly acknowledged.
EMIYA serves as the embodiment of Shirou's Ideal, and yet also serves as the end goal that Shirou refuses to accept; It's a twofold issue. He is both the thing Shirou so desperately wants to become, yet he cannot accept EMIYA Archer as a being. While Archer's way of doing thing's may be correct objectively- The best way to save as many as possible may be to kill those who would kill more- Shirou cannot agree with this morally, even if he recognizes it as correct. Shirou Emiya is forced to confront his ideal, and make a choice; And yet, he refuses to back down on his Ideal's. It's not out of some sort of ignorance however.
As Shirou and EMIYA fight in this route, he is slowly made to understand EMIYA- See what happened to him, how his path led to nothing but ruin, and how eventually his own path would lead that way. He is forced to realize that, even if he disagree's with it. You see, Shirou's refusal to back down from his ideal's doesn't come from naively ignoring reality- It comes from accepting that reality, and yet still choosing to pursue the ideal world. Even if that Dream cannot be attained, it is still to Shirou a Admirable Dream Worth Fighting for. In that sense, he both accepts and rejects EMIYA- He accepts that EMIYA is correct about the truth of the world, but rejects the notion that he could ever be correct on a moral front. In that sense, you could say he stop's selfishly pursuing this ideal, and instead selflessly does so; Not because he is ignorantly blind, but because he is aware. In a way, UBW Shirou is the ultimate realization of his original Ideal.
Heaven's Feel
Of course, that isn't the only route Shirou can take to deviate from that origin. There are ways for Shirou to be broken down and torn apart from his Ideal. Situation's which force him to choose between what is right according to his Ideal and what is right according to his Emotion's. That is what Heaven's Feel is. The situation which takes a character who has pursued a Ideal his entire life, and pushing him down a path that makes him sacrifice it.
In Heaven's Feel, we see a route where Shirou develop's deeper Personal Bonds than ever before; A route where EMIYA continue's to plague Shirou's mind even in his death; A route where the antithesis of Shirou face's him and forces Shirou to reflect on the nature of "Shirou Emiya". Beforehand, you could Say Shirou was always allowed to have his cake and eat it too- Even in UBW where he (subjectively) get's amazing Character Development that explore's his Ideal's and the potential friction against his desire's, we don't really see him have to make that choice. But in Heaven's Feel, not only do we see that- But we see it from a Shirou who doesn't have the development that UBW Shirou had. He's no different from his Fate Route self, really- And yet, he is confronted with a choice.
The Girl he has spent a large amount of his time with, Sakura Matou- A girl he even develop's romantic feelings for in this route- Is a threat to people by existing. Her continued existence can slowly jeopardize more and more people. Naturally, EMIYA would have eliminated her. Most likely, UBW Shirou would have tried to find a way to save her and everyone else. But Heaven's Feel Shirou? He recognizes that her continued existence hurts other's, and that he realistically cannot save her while saving everyone else. And yet, he can't bring himself to do it.
Shirou Emiya cannot kill Sakura Matou. Further than that, he cannot let harm come to her.
Over the course of this route, Shirou is made to protect the one thing that is most dangerous to everyone else- He simply has to, he cannot fathom the idea of killing her. He cannot do it. Furthermore, he not only chooses to protect her- But at his own expense.
To summarize a particularly important series of events, basically, Shirou got injured due to protecting someone, causing the loss of his arm. Normally, EMIYA would not care- He wished for the death of UBW Shirou after all, due to not wanting Shirou Emiya to go down his same path. However, possibly due to seeing something in him- Maybe even seeing that he won't go down the same path- He chose to save Shirou's life by giving his Arm.
... That said, even though they are the same person and thus more compatible than most, mixing Servant and Human body parts is a big no no.
To put it basically, even though the Arm allowes Shirou to directly use part of Archer's Power and Abilities, the Arm will work against Shirou due to the conflict between EMIYA's Ideal's and Shirou's Ideal's; Even if this Shirou is more of a Realist, part of him still cab't quite shake off his ideal's.
This eventually culminates in his battle against The man known as Kirei Kotomine.
For some background, Kirei Kotomine is a Preist who helped to oversee the war that occur's in Fate/Stay Night. He is essentially, the opposite of Shirou, and yet the same. He only finds joy in the suffering of other's, and pursue's this through any means necessary. He know's this is inherently wrong, but yet he doesn't care; He continue's to cause pain and suffering for other's because that's all he know's.
During their fight, Kirei and Shirou break each other down- Coming to understand one another, coming to see how they are essentially one in the same; Two Broken, empty men who will pursue their happiness selfishly.
However. There is one difference between these two men.
Kirei is only fighting here, because all his life he has only known to cause suffering. But Shirou has something else to fight for. Someone.
Even though Kirei is a impossible enemy for Shirou, Shirou Emiya is able to survive long enough because he has someone he has to win for. He can't lose, because if he loses, Sakura can't be happy. It's not about his ideal's anymore; Maybe that's somewhere in the back of his mind, but at that moment, in that instance, even when his body and mind are being beaten down and torn apart, he thinks only about the happiness of the one he cares for the most.
This is truly the closest we see Shirou come to discarding his ideal's in the original route's- While he may have some amount of idealism still inside him, he still elects to put his own desire's above said ideal's. This even culminates in one climatic scene, wherein we can see his desire's at full motion- When the girl who was his Sister in a sense, Illyasviel, elects to sacrifice herself so that Shirou doesn't have to die. And ultimately... While he wants to save her, and he wants her to not go... He also deep down, finally, wants to live.
Oath Under Snow
... But, that's not the end. Because there is one more Shirou to discuss- A Shirou that didn't have everything he did in the original route's. A Shirou who's surrogate father was cold to him. A Shirou who had the girl he loved killed in a twisted ritual. A Shirou who's final family- Final Hope- Is stolen from him and kidnapped... A Shirou who from the very start, didn't fight for Ideal's.
Maybe he did have that desire to be a Hero somewhere deep inside- But that desire could never blossom in the eternal winter that was Shirou's Life. A life where he knew next to no one personally- His father was cold, he only had two friends at school, and everyone else was just... A stranger. This is a Shirou who's very core is shaken- A Shirou who appears to be cold and calculating. He may want to hold onto something he loves, but you will find him rarely using the sentimental, but rather, the practical.
And yet, this Shirou isn't cold.
In fact, he's far from it- He is sentimental. He is caring and warm. He sympathizes with those close to them- It's why he could never become a hero, because in this timeline, being a Hero was synonymous with not letting emotion's dictate your actions... And Shirou's heart was too weak for that. Shirou is someone who makes bonds and connections, even if he himself isn't aware of such- He is a sentimental person who can't simply sacrifice people he loves and cut off his emotions.
As a matter of fact, the entire reason he comes to fight later on is specifically because of this sentimentality- In a world where his own adoptive sister is a potential Holy Grail of great power, a world where everyone is willing to use her- Even Shirou's own Father- In a world where everyone else is torn away from Shirou, and everything he know's is taken... He chooses to fight for the one person he has left. Even if he loses, so long as that Person can see a bright future, then he will have a smile on his face.
Oath Under Snow is Shirou Emiya underneath all those Ideal's he has in the main route's- He is a man of Warmth and Sentimentality that, in some part of him, truly wants to have the things he cherishes close to him.
The General Summary and Comparison's
Now that we've gone over each version of Shirou, I hope that it's clear who and what Shirou Emiya is. In short, Shirou Emiya is a character who is made by his past- A character who's tragedies affect him deeply and shape his ideal's- A character who's Ideal's can be flawed, but still worth going after. A character who recognizes that putting his Ideal's aside for the sake of what he care's for is something he might be willing to do. A character who, Ultimately, is too warm to become EMIYA.
Because that's ultimately what the core conflict with Shirou and EMIYA is- The Conflict of their Emotion's versus the Duty they give to themselves.
Fate Shirou Blindly Pursue's this Ideal, selfishly and naively disregarding Reality.
UBW Shirou acknowledges the Flaw's in his Ideal, yet Selflessly pursue's it as a worthwhile dream.
HF Shirou pushes his Ideal to the Wayside, compromising it for the sake of those he wants to hold close.
OUS Shirou could never live up to the Ideal given to him, and as such, only fought for his Emotional connection's.
And EMIYA is the ultimate realization of sacrificing Emotion's for the sake of this Duty, of this Ideal- That is a End Goal that could only be accepted by a Shirou who cannot reconcile with himself.
Both UBW and OUS Shirou are able to fully reconcile with their Ideal's and Emotion's, and while HF may not implicitly reconcile with said Ideal's and Emotion's, he recognizes that his Emotion's are at least as important as said Ideal. Fate Shirou, however, is already on the path towards that Ideal.
As for EMIYA, he is someone who can only make a Reconcilation in one outcome. In the Fate Route, Shirou is already set in stone to follow this Ideal without acknowledging Reality, and Heaven's Feel Shirou is already different enough from the Ideal that put EMIYA on the path he is. But in Unlimited Blade Works, through Shirou Emiya finding a resolve to pursue his Ideal's while Acknowledging Reality, EMIYA is able to find peace with this path, and finally rest. Of course, EMIYA is absent in OUS so there isn't much to say there.
A interesting thing I find is also how the only three to unlock Unlimited Blade Works are UBW Shirou, OUS Shirou, and EMIYA. EMIYA should be a relatively obvious situation, wherein it's something he unlocked over time, but UBW and OUS Shirou seemed able to unlock Unlimited Blade Works earlier. They also so happen to be the two Shirou's who can find a resolution in their conflict of Ideal's vs Emotions, so take that as you will. I do personally find UBW and OUS Shirou to both be the most interesting, admittedly (Kind of funny since I spent so much time on HF Shirou or all things), but all of these Shirou's are really integral to understanding the full picture of what is "Shirou Emiya".
We see all ranges of path's Shirou can go- From the foundation of what Shirou is, we can see what happens if he blindly pursue's his Ideal's, if he can fully accept reality and still elect to follow his dreams, if he can compromise his ideal for the sake of emotional connections, and a world where he never could have those ideal's- A world where he can only dream of pursuing warmth in the form of those he care's for. Shirou Emiya, at his core, is an Idealist who's Ideal's directly conflict with his emotional impulses. But only in scenario's where he can either accept his Ideal's Flaw's, or Reject that Ideal fully, can he reach his truest power. Only by finding a solution to the conflict of his Ideal's and Emotion's can he achieve his full potential in the form of his Unlimited Blade Works.
Now this isn't to dunk on anyone who prefer's a different Shirou- If your favorite Shirou is Heaven's Feel Shirou, that's completely valid, as his temporary resolution of compromising Ideal's for his Emotion's is interesting and worth looking into, and Fate Route, while in my opinion having the most Boring Shirou out of the main 5 versions of him, is still great insight into Shirou and why the path of allowing this conflict to continue inside of him can eventually lead to the tragic end point that is EMIYA. And of course, EMIYA himself is a very fun character who has his interesting dynamics with other character's. That said, I feel personally at least, that only UBW and OUS Shirou are able to fully realize themselves and their character as Shirou Emiya- While Fate Route doesn't make much progress in this regard, and HF might be some of the way there, UBW and OUS are the two who manage to settle their conflict, and that makes them feel the most "Complete" to me, personally.
In conclusion, I believe Shirou to be a immensely interesting and well written Character who is notable enough to be mentioned here.
So uh, yeah, that was something, lol. I have a feeling I might not have done the best job of explaining things, and I might have missed some stuff about him, to be honest. That said, I will say, most inspiration for this post came from this Video, straight up. It really helped me initially when I was getting into the series clear up the differences between each Shirou. If you sat through and read all of this, then thank you for your time. I hope this may have provided you with something, at least.
... Man I really just wasted 4 hour's of my life on this-
Shirou's Origin for Fate/Stay Night
Shirou Emiya's core issue's for pretty much all version's of himself stem from one singular situation; Everything that occurred to Shirou before is hardly relevant, and as such, I will only go over the part that is relevant, and that's the events surrounding the end of the Fourth Holy Grail War. In order to not keep you here forever, I will simply address what is relevant about this war: As a result of the conflict, the city in which Shirou lived was burned down. Everyone he knew and loved, every other person- All gone. And yet, Shirou survived, rescued by the man who would become his surrogate father, Kiritsugu Emiya.
In having had this experience, Shirou's takeaway's were twofold; A development of Survivor's Guilt/PTSD over having been the only one to survive, and yet a Deep Admiration to the man who saved him, to the point of Idolization. Shirou Loathes that his own existence was the only one who was saved, and yet he praises the man who saved him. He question's why he was the one to be saved, and yet believes the one who saved him to be the ideal way of being. At the core of Shirou Emiya's character is contradiction; His conflict's almost always stem from said contradiction, and that contradiction is what made him the character he become's in the future. This contradiction, this origin, it is imperative to understanding the character that is Shirou Emiya.
Fate Route
Moving on, we have... I will admit, my least favorite Shirou, and the one I find the most boring, at least out of the Shirou Emiya's on this list. But even so, he is important to look at, because while he has arguably the least amount of Development of any Shirou, he is the template that goes on to show where the Other Shirou's, sans Oath Under Snow, originate from. Think of him as the starting point of Shirou in F/SN, and think of EMIYA, UBW, and HF as three possible "End's" for that Shirou to reach.
Shirou Emiya in this route, as well as the beginning of the other two route's, is someone who on the surface seems average. However, internally he is filled with many problem's. As a result of his obsession with his Surrogate Father, he developed a Ideal inspired by him; The Ideal of becoming a Hero. His main goal, ultimately, is to save as many live's as possible. However, to do so, he is willing to let himself be hurt or even killed- This stem's from his Survivor's Guilt. He doesn't know why he was the one who survived, yet he did. He doesn't perceive his life to have been worth being saved; That should have been someone else. Ergo, why should he care if his life is extinguished now? It's not that he's suicidal per say, but he could not care less if he dies so long as it's for the sake of saving other's.
Shirou Emiya is a mentally disturbed person; A man who has a set of Ideal's that will lead him nowhere, and a lack of self preservation that guarantee his Ideal's will go through at any cost. What most other's see as a Selfless goal that all should strive for, is in reality for Shirou Emiya a self destructive life style that shaft's Realism in favor of Idealism, blindly pursuing one's dream's with reckless abandon. This could be considered a selfish way of life, as a matter of fact- A existence that derives pleasure for oneself from the happiness of other's. In a way, it's almost appalling- This is a man who is unbothered by some of the most disturbing of things, and only solely focused on saving everyone possible.
This is a path that will lead him nowhere.
A path that will leave him with no one.
Nothing.
Nothing but broken Ideal's.
Nothing but EMIYA.
EMIYA
... In many ways, you can say, the Fate Route is the path where EMIYA is the natural conclusion. Heroic Spirit EMIYA Archer is a character that very much belongs to the same franchise as Shirou, but he is more than that; He IS Shirou. Shirou from a timeline where he pursued his ideal's to the very end, even giving his life to become a Counter Guardian; A Hero who appear's in time's of great strife to save lives.
He thought he would be saving lives, he thought he would be achieving world peace slowly, but it soon became apparent to EMIYA what saving people really means.
Time and time again, he was sent out. His mission? Kill this dictator. Kill these terrorists. Kill this treasonous wretch. Kill. Kill. Kill some more.
In order to save as many people as possible, he had to kill a vast number of other's. After all, while Shirou could be said to "Value the live's of all over the life of the one", Emiya would be said to have been forced to "Defend the lives of the many by eliminating the few". Needless to say, having one's own ideal's countered and being forced to against said ideal's could leave a man broken. EMIYA is a Cynical, twisted Mirror of Shirou; A Realistic Individual who is willing to justify the loss of life for the sake of achieving a greater goal. In that sense, EMIYA becomes the opposite of Shirou, while also remaining the same. While this conflict is touched on lightly in the Fate Route, it's most prevalent in...
Unlimited Blade Works
Unlimited Blade Works. A route made for Shirou and EMIYA inherently. Yes, perhaps one could say the main draw is the particular Love Interest, but the real crux of this Route is the Archer EMIYA and Shirou Emiya. While this route initially doesn't appear to be too different from the Fate Route, through his interaction's with character's in this route, he is forced to confront things about himself that Fate Route Ignored; He is presented with the possibility that his ideal is faulty, something that he never truly acknowledged.
EMIYA serves as the embodiment of Shirou's Ideal, and yet also serves as the end goal that Shirou refuses to accept; It's a twofold issue. He is both the thing Shirou so desperately wants to become, yet he cannot accept EMIYA Archer as a being. While Archer's way of doing thing's may be correct objectively- The best way to save as many as possible may be to kill those who would kill more- Shirou cannot agree with this morally, even if he recognizes it as correct. Shirou Emiya is forced to confront his ideal, and make a choice; And yet, he refuses to back down on his Ideal's. It's not out of some sort of ignorance however.
As Shirou and EMIYA fight in this route, he is slowly made to understand EMIYA- See what happened to him, how his path led to nothing but ruin, and how eventually his own path would lead that way. He is forced to realize that, even if he disagree's with it. You see, Shirou's refusal to back down from his ideal's doesn't come from naively ignoring reality- It comes from accepting that reality, and yet still choosing to pursue the ideal world. Even if that Dream cannot be attained, it is still to Shirou a Admirable Dream Worth Fighting for. In that sense, he both accepts and rejects EMIYA- He accepts that EMIYA is correct about the truth of the world, but rejects the notion that he could ever be correct on a moral front. In that sense, you could say he stop's selfishly pursuing this ideal, and instead selflessly does so; Not because he is ignorantly blind, but because he is aware. In a way, UBW Shirou is the ultimate realization of his original Ideal.
Heaven's Feel
Of course, that isn't the only route Shirou can take to deviate from that origin. There are ways for Shirou to be broken down and torn apart from his Ideal. Situation's which force him to choose between what is right according to his Ideal and what is right according to his Emotion's. That is what Heaven's Feel is. The situation which takes a character who has pursued a Ideal his entire life, and pushing him down a path that makes him sacrifice it.
In Heaven's Feel, we see a route where Shirou develop's deeper Personal Bonds than ever before; A route where EMIYA continue's to plague Shirou's mind even in his death; A route where the antithesis of Shirou face's him and forces Shirou to reflect on the nature of "Shirou Emiya". Beforehand, you could Say Shirou was always allowed to have his cake and eat it too- Even in UBW where he (subjectively) get's amazing Character Development that explore's his Ideal's and the potential friction against his desire's, we don't really see him have to make that choice. But in Heaven's Feel, not only do we see that- But we see it from a Shirou who doesn't have the development that UBW Shirou had. He's no different from his Fate Route self, really- And yet, he is confronted with a choice.
The Girl he has spent a large amount of his time with, Sakura Matou- A girl he even develop's romantic feelings for in this route- Is a threat to people by existing. Her continued existence can slowly jeopardize more and more people. Naturally, EMIYA would have eliminated her. Most likely, UBW Shirou would have tried to find a way to save her and everyone else. But Heaven's Feel Shirou? He recognizes that her continued existence hurts other's, and that he realistically cannot save her while saving everyone else. And yet, he can't bring himself to do it.
Shirou Emiya cannot kill Sakura Matou. Further than that, he cannot let harm come to her.
Over the course of this route, Shirou is made to protect the one thing that is most dangerous to everyone else- He simply has to, he cannot fathom the idea of killing her. He cannot do it. Furthermore, he not only chooses to protect her- But at his own expense.
To summarize a particularly important series of events, basically, Shirou got injured due to protecting someone, causing the loss of his arm. Normally, EMIYA would not care- He wished for the death of UBW Shirou after all, due to not wanting Shirou Emiya to go down his same path. However, possibly due to seeing something in him- Maybe even seeing that he won't go down the same path- He chose to save Shirou's life by giving his Arm.
... That said, even though they are the same person and thus more compatible than most, mixing Servant and Human body parts is a big no no.
To put it basically, even though the Arm allowes Shirou to directly use part of Archer's Power and Abilities, the Arm will work against Shirou due to the conflict between EMIYA's Ideal's and Shirou's Ideal's; Even if this Shirou is more of a Realist, part of him still cab't quite shake off his ideal's.
This eventually culminates in his battle against The man known as Kirei Kotomine.
For some background, Kirei Kotomine is a Preist who helped to oversee the war that occur's in Fate/Stay Night. He is essentially, the opposite of Shirou, and yet the same. He only finds joy in the suffering of other's, and pursue's this through any means necessary. He know's this is inherently wrong, but yet he doesn't care; He continue's to cause pain and suffering for other's because that's all he know's.
During their fight, Kirei and Shirou break each other down- Coming to understand one another, coming to see how they are essentially one in the same; Two Broken, empty men who will pursue their happiness selfishly.
However. There is one difference between these two men.
Kirei is only fighting here, because all his life he has only known to cause suffering. But Shirou has something else to fight for. Someone.
Even though Kirei is a impossible enemy for Shirou, Shirou Emiya is able to survive long enough because he has someone he has to win for. He can't lose, because if he loses, Sakura can't be happy. It's not about his ideal's anymore; Maybe that's somewhere in the back of his mind, but at that moment, in that instance, even when his body and mind are being beaten down and torn apart, he thinks only about the happiness of the one he cares for the most.
This is truly the closest we see Shirou come to discarding his ideal's in the original route's- While he may have some amount of idealism still inside him, he still elects to put his own desire's above said ideal's. This even culminates in one climatic scene, wherein we can see his desire's at full motion- When the girl who was his Sister in a sense, Illyasviel, elects to sacrifice herself so that Shirou doesn't have to die. And ultimately... While he wants to save her, and he wants her to not go... He also deep down, finally, wants to live.
Oath Under Snow
... But, that's not the end. Because there is one more Shirou to discuss- A Shirou that didn't have everything he did in the original route's. A Shirou who's surrogate father was cold to him. A Shirou who had the girl he loved killed in a twisted ritual. A Shirou who's final family- Final Hope- Is stolen from him and kidnapped... A Shirou who from the very start, didn't fight for Ideal's.
Maybe he did have that desire to be a Hero somewhere deep inside- But that desire could never blossom in the eternal winter that was Shirou's Life. A life where he knew next to no one personally- His father was cold, he only had two friends at school, and everyone else was just... A stranger. This is a Shirou who's very core is shaken- A Shirou who appears to be cold and calculating. He may want to hold onto something he loves, but you will find him rarely using the sentimental, but rather, the practical.
And yet, this Shirou isn't cold.
In fact, he's far from it- He is sentimental. He is caring and warm. He sympathizes with those close to them- It's why he could never become a hero, because in this timeline, being a Hero was synonymous with not letting emotion's dictate your actions... And Shirou's heart was too weak for that. Shirou is someone who makes bonds and connections, even if he himself isn't aware of such- He is a sentimental person who can't simply sacrifice people he loves and cut off his emotions.
As a matter of fact, the entire reason he comes to fight later on is specifically because of this sentimentality- In a world where his own adoptive sister is a potential Holy Grail of great power, a world where everyone is willing to use her- Even Shirou's own Father- In a world where everyone else is torn away from Shirou, and everything he know's is taken... He chooses to fight for the one person he has left. Even if he loses, so long as that Person can see a bright future, then he will have a smile on his face.
Oath Under Snow is Shirou Emiya underneath all those Ideal's he has in the main route's- He is a man of Warmth and Sentimentality that, in some part of him, truly wants to have the things he cherishes close to him.
The General Summary and Comparison's
Now that we've gone over each version of Shirou, I hope that it's clear who and what Shirou Emiya is. In short, Shirou Emiya is a character who is made by his past- A character who's tragedies affect him deeply and shape his ideal's- A character who's Ideal's can be flawed, but still worth going after. A character who recognizes that putting his Ideal's aside for the sake of what he care's for is something he might be willing to do. A character who, Ultimately, is too warm to become EMIYA.
Because that's ultimately what the core conflict with Shirou and EMIYA is- The Conflict of their Emotion's versus the Duty they give to themselves.
Fate Shirou Blindly Pursue's this Ideal, selfishly and naively disregarding Reality.
UBW Shirou acknowledges the Flaw's in his Ideal, yet Selflessly pursue's it as a worthwhile dream.
HF Shirou pushes his Ideal to the Wayside, compromising it for the sake of those he wants to hold close.
OUS Shirou could never live up to the Ideal given to him, and as such, only fought for his Emotional connection's.
And EMIYA is the ultimate realization of sacrificing Emotion's for the sake of this Duty, of this Ideal- That is a End Goal that could only be accepted by a Shirou who cannot reconcile with himself.
Both UBW and OUS Shirou are able to fully reconcile with their Ideal's and Emotion's, and while HF may not implicitly reconcile with said Ideal's and Emotion's, he recognizes that his Emotion's are at least as important as said Ideal. Fate Shirou, however, is already on the path towards that Ideal.
As for EMIYA, he is someone who can only make a Reconcilation in one outcome. In the Fate Route, Shirou is already set in stone to follow this Ideal without acknowledging Reality, and Heaven's Feel Shirou is already different enough from the Ideal that put EMIYA on the path he is. But in Unlimited Blade Works, through Shirou Emiya finding a resolve to pursue his Ideal's while Acknowledging Reality, EMIYA is able to find peace with this path, and finally rest. Of course, EMIYA is absent in OUS so there isn't much to say there.
A interesting thing I find is also how the only three to unlock Unlimited Blade Works are UBW Shirou, OUS Shirou, and EMIYA. EMIYA should be a relatively obvious situation, wherein it's something he unlocked over time, but UBW and OUS Shirou seemed able to unlock Unlimited Blade Works earlier. They also so happen to be the two Shirou's who can find a resolution in their conflict of Ideal's vs Emotions, so take that as you will. I do personally find UBW and OUS Shirou to both be the most interesting, admittedly (Kind of funny since I spent so much time on HF Shirou or all things), but all of these Shirou's are really integral to understanding the full picture of what is "Shirou Emiya".
We see all ranges of path's Shirou can go- From the foundation of what Shirou is, we can see what happens if he blindly pursue's his Ideal's, if he can fully accept reality and still elect to follow his dreams, if he can compromise his ideal for the sake of emotional connections, and a world where he never could have those ideal's- A world where he can only dream of pursuing warmth in the form of those he care's for. Shirou Emiya, at his core, is an Idealist who's Ideal's directly conflict with his emotional impulses. But only in scenario's where he can either accept his Ideal's Flaw's, or Reject that Ideal fully, can he reach his truest power. Only by finding a solution to the conflict of his Ideal's and Emotion's can he achieve his full potential in the form of his Unlimited Blade Works.
Now this isn't to dunk on anyone who prefer's a different Shirou- If your favorite Shirou is Heaven's Feel Shirou, that's completely valid, as his temporary resolution of compromising Ideal's for his Emotion's is interesting and worth looking into, and Fate Route, while in my opinion having the most Boring Shirou out of the main 5 versions of him, is still great insight into Shirou and why the path of allowing this conflict to continue inside of him can eventually lead to the tragic end point that is EMIYA. And of course, EMIYA himself is a very fun character who has his interesting dynamics with other character's. That said, I feel personally at least, that only UBW and OUS Shirou are able to fully realize themselves and their character as Shirou Emiya- While Fate Route doesn't make much progress in this regard, and HF might be some of the way there, UBW and OUS are the two who manage to settle their conflict, and that makes them feel the most "Complete" to me, personally.
In conclusion, I believe Shirou to be a immensely interesting and well written Character who is notable enough to be mentioned here.
So uh, yeah, that was something, lol. I have a feeling I might not have done the best job of explaining things, and I might have missed some stuff about him, to be honest. That said, I will say, most inspiration for this post came from this Video, straight up. It really helped me initially when I was getting into the series clear up the differences between each Shirou. If you sat through and read all of this, then thank you for your time. I hope this may have provided you with something, at least.
... Man I really just wasted 4 hour's of my life on this-
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Wrong thread
Do it here, better.
Do it here, better.
KingNanaya
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damn, you killed the man
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(I want his post to be recognized, that's helping not to kill)
KingNanaya
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ah, I see. that's my bad then
Darksmash
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Well yes it's something that relies on common sense to communicate the point.
I think you missed the point. Comparisons between "good" works will be so vague and subjective that bias can't be avoided. Because "writing" is much much more vague than "who wins in a fight". But I guess expecting common sense from you is too much to ask.
You mean the thread which goes "explain why YOU think these characters are well written and then we will hold a vote"? Genuinely wondering if you just can't read. There's no criteria or ruleset here.
Not my mindset. Saying that discussion in a particular field is useless because of EXTREME subjectivity doesn't equate to saying everything has to be 100% objective.
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I did not miss any point. It's the same concept in every contest, and it is subjective, so? Setup voting guidelines and whatever the majority perceives the best written book will be decided and added.
But I guess expecting reading from you is too much to ask.
Not my point.
Sorry, but it's my impression on your arguments.
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1: Explain why you think the character is well written, then we will vote similar to Versus Threads.
2: For a verdict, there must be at least five votes in favor of the character, with a minimum difference of three votes
3: Whichever character has the most votes will be added to the list.
4: The numbers aren't ordered.
Genuinely wondering if you just can't read.
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Dread, could you please not get so hostile? There's no reason to do so
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Clover, can you check who actually started it first? You may see the reason.
Either warn us both or warn the person who can't argue without being passive aggressive in his messages to pick a fight.
I am more than reasonable most of the time, but not when someone who can't discuss without bringing hostility in his messages because he can't even argue in a normal tone, then I need to respond as well, for not being weak.
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It’s not a warning, it’s just an advice.
Doesn’t matter who started it first since you got mad at it. Just chill.
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My bad. I should not be mad at someone who is being hostile against me.
Apologies to everyone.
Apologies to everyone.
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I did, but stuff like "But I guess expecting reading from you is too much to ask" and "Genuinely wondering if you just can't read" is more outwardly aggressive by comparison. Though I can agree with there being passive aggression on Darksmash's end, to which I'd extend the same advice.
Also I'm in no position to give warnings to begin with, I'm just asking for y'all to chill out
Also I'm in no position to give warnings to begin with, I'm just asking for y'all to chill out
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Definitely not. You just create more agression by doing this.
Contact a staff member or go to the RVR. It’s way better than just act the same as the person who is wrong.
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Darksmash
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Tbf that also started from me. I was annoyed at that moment, since the argument wasn't going anywhere. Which is why I won't engage any further since I don't see any productive discussion or progress on this topic when arguing with Dread.
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Noted.
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