Moon level Naruto upgrade

[BlackeJan]

For those that don’t know, there is actually a calc for this years ago but it will need to be recalced

 

[KingTempest]

I feel like there's an easier way that doesn't rely on circular scaling.

TCM Toneri is 199 exatons correct? Base Naruto with KCM focused on his fist one shotted him

1. Therefore base Naruto + focused KCM = 199 exatons
2. SM Naruto + focused KCM = 1.99 zettatons
3. SPSM Naruto + focused KCM (used against Juubidara) = 1.99 zettatons (stronger than SM)

Obviously this won't get all the god tiers into low 5-B (yet), but it will get Naruto's AP and everyone's TSB durability to low 5-B, so that's atleast something.

Now why aren't you using SM Naruto in the first one instead of Base + Focused KCM?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Now why aren't you using SM Naruto in the first one instead of Base + Focused KCM?

Tempest, I know kcm naruto triggers you mentally, just take a breather.

 

[DuDE01010]

Now why aren't you using SM Naruto in the first one instead of Base + Focused KCM?

Because it was base + focused KCM that one shotted Toneri.

 

[KingTempest]

Because it was base + focused KCM that one shotted Toneri.

Why wouldn't it be base + focused KCM + sage mode, which he used to fight Toneri in the first place..?

 

[theultimate5105]

Why wouldn't it be base + focused KCM + sage mode, which he used to fight Toneri in the first place..?

He wasn't using SM when he one shot Toneri

 

[DuDE01010]

Why wouldn't it be base + focused KCM + sage mode, which he used to fight Toneri in the first place..?

Naruto used KCM + Sage mode to fight Toneri, where he got stalemated. Naruto then reverted into base and focused his KCM into his fist to one shot Toneri.
You have to be transformed to get the 10x boost, you can't be in base.

 

[Damage3245]

Naruto used KCM + Sage mode to fight Toneri, where he got stalemated. Naruto then reverted into base and focused his KCM into his fist to one shot Toneri.
You have to be transformed to get the 10x boost, you can't be in base.

Unless concentrating his Sage chakra into his hand made the rest of his body untransform. (Or it could be an animator mistake tbh)

 

[DuDE01010]

Unless concentrating his Sage chakra into his hand made the rest of his body untransform. (Or it could be an animator mistake tbh)

That's just pure headcanon. Naruto does the same thing against fused Momoshiki.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

(Or it could be an animator mistake tbh)

 

[KingTempest]

Naruto used KCM + Sage mode to fight Toneri, where he got stalemated. Naruto then reverted into base and focused his KCM into his fist to one shot Toneri.
You have to be transformed to get the 10x boost, you can't be in base.

Chakra based transformations is focusing the chakra throughout your entire body.
What if he just focused his chakra into his fist instead of through his entire body?

And if Naruto couldn't beat him with KCM + Sage Mode, why would he go revert back into base to use only KCM? Doesn't make any sense.

And didn't he have an all his might statement?

Naruto ran up to Toneri.
“It takes a long, long time to convey your feelings! That’s why I can’t let it end so easily!!”
He didn’t even need jutsu or skills anymore—just one fist was enough!
With all his might, he threw a punch head on.

So no.

That's just pure headcanon. Naruto does the same thing against fused Momoshiki.

No he did not, because against Toneri he used all his might and the chakra was stagnant, while against Momoshiki the chakra was barely on his fist and it was glowing.

 

[Arkenis]

I talked about in the Koji thread why Naruto and Sasuke are stronger against Isshiki.

did we read the same fight????

 

[Arkenis]

Where this 10x thing coming from for Naruto also?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Where this 10x thing coming from for Naruto also?

The sage mode multiplier.

 

[DuDE01010]

Chakra based transformations is focusing the chakra throughout your entire body.
What if he just focused his chakra into his fist instead of through his entire body?

Once again this is headcanon. Please provide evidence of base Naruto being able to do this with Sage Mode. Please provide evidence for curse mark users doing this. This defeats the entire purpose of Naruto having to go into Sage Mode to counter Juubi Jins and then later combine his KCM with SM.

And if Naruto couldn't beat him with KCM + Sage Mode, why would he go revert back into base to use only KCM? Doesn't make any sense.

Focused chakra to a single point > chakra distributed evenly around his body

And didn't he have an all his might statement?

So no.

No he did not, because against Toneri he used all his might and the chakra was stagnant, while against Momoshiki the chakra was barely on his fist and it was glowing.

That's simply just wordplay. 'All his might' but doesn't even use SPSM lmao. That's just scenarios and power ups that simply doesn't exist. Also last I checked the Last Novel isn't used, as stated in the sudden GWRE downgrade, so lets not do that

Also what your saying is that Toneri is the strongest person Naruto's faced, as theres no "all his might" statements anywhere else.

 

[Auf]

No, you are reading that correctly. Yes, this is a bait. This is an attempt to upgrade base Naruto to 5-C.

Main Argument: Destroying the Tenseigan​

Hamura's Tenseigan was protected for thousands of years by a curse that would instantly drain the Chakra of those who lacked the blood of Hamura, which in this case would be Naruto. Hinata, who is of Hamura's blood, attempted to strike down the Tenseigan, only to be outright rejected, lacking the strength to destroy the superpower.



Upon realizing Hinata was powerless against Hamura's Tenseigan, he came up with the plan to combine Hinata's ability to touch the Tenseigan with his overwhelming power in order to completely destroy the eye. So, they combined their Chakra, powered up an attack, and crashed into the Tenseigan, with their combined might destroying the eye completely.

Here is the thing: most of this was Naruto's doing.

1. Hinata herself was not able to even "scratch" Hamura's Tenseigan, let alone damage it; however, after combining her powers with Naruto's, they could destroy it.
2. The novel explicitly states that the heavy lifting was done by Naruto's own "massive amount of chakra".

This is important because the Tenseigan had the power to push the Moon into the Earth. Naruto implicitly stated that the Tenseigan was the force driving the Moon into the Earth in this very scene, and when the Tenseigan was destroyed, the Moon stopped moving and only continued moving after Toneri awakened his own Tenseigan.

And lastly, Toneri stated that the Chakra of Hamura's Tenseigan was powerful enough to move the Moon into the Earth.

What this means is:

1. Hamura's Tenseigan's Chakra was so powerful that it could move the Moon and push it into the Earth.
2. That Chakra was much more powerful than Hinata's, hence why she failed to destroy it.
3. However, Naruto's Chakra was powerful enough to destroy Hamura's Tenseigan, resulting in the Moon halting, temporarily saving the world.

Naruto > Hamura's Tenseigan = Moon level >>> Hinata.

And, before you attempt to argue that "Naruto borrowed power from Kurama with this attack", no. Nothing, not even the novelization, proves or states that Naruto borrowed Kurama's power. In fact, the novel states this was done with Naruto's own Chakra. And when Naruto borrows power from Kurama, his arm glows the same way his body does in Kurama Chakra Mode, as seen here and here; however, in the initial rescue, in the third confrontation with Toneri (Naruto even says its his Chakra when it is sucked out), and while destroying Hamura's Tenseigan, his arm, which would be golden if he were borrowing Kurama's power, was completely normal.

All excerpts of the The Last: Naruto the Movie novelization come from here.​

Secondary Argument: Vs Momoshiki​

Naruto briefly battled with Fused Momoshiki in his base form, clashing with him, dodging his attacks, taking his attacks, and reacting to him from close range. On its own, this means nothing, and many would be quick to point out that this scaling does not work, arguing that Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is comparable to Momoshiki.

However, Naruto and Sasuke were virtually rawdogging him once they got serious, which is further emphasized in the anime, with the two of them literally just knocking Momoshiki around and throwing him across the map once they really got into the battle; and, honestly, the two of them did not even seem like they were giving it their all, as they were laughing and giggling and just screwing around with Momoshiki the entire time; yes, they were serious, but they were obviously not "Jigen serious". Naruto also had his energy drained for quite some time (for reference, the audience of the Chunin Exams had time to black out and then wake up in the hospital), so he obviously was not giving it his all.

So, trying to argue against Naruto closely downscaling from Fused Momoshiki on the basis that Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is comparable to Fused Momoshiki is moot, considering Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto and Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke were actually portrayed as superior to him.

Tertiary Arguments​

Boruto's Ninja Encyclopedia​

According to the Ninja Encyclopedia, Naruto possesses a 110 in Strength, whereas Sasuke has a 130, meaning that Naruto is in the same ballpark as him.

The reason this is a tertiary argument, though, is because the Ninja Encyclopedia is incredibly unreliable. For example, Boruto, Sarada, and Mitsuki have Strength values that are nearing those of Naruto and Sasuke, even though they are only Genin at the time. Of course, you could argue that their stats only apply to the other Genin, which is a fair argument. But then, there is also Sakura, who possesses a 100 in Strength, placing her close to the level of Naruto and Sasuke, which obviously is not true.

These Ninja Encyclopedia are all covering these characters in their normal states, unless stated otherwise, like with Ao or Kawaki, so Sakura in her normal state possessing a combat ability in the same range as Sasuke, who would be 5-C at this point, is nonsense, considering with the Byakugan in the Great Ninja War, she was casually intercepted by Dual Rinnegan Madara and could not budge against his Limbo clone, unless you actually consider her punching a distracted Kaguya as a feat worthy to place her there.

Yes, the New Era takes place many years into the future, but Sakura was given the Gohan treatment and has settled down in the Blank Period of peace. She has not trained over the years because she was busy raising a family.

So, take this with a grain of salt.

Conclusions​

Adult Naruto scales to 5-C, based on the fact that:

1. He is more powerful than Hamura's Tenseigan, which is powerful enough to move the Moon.
2. He could briefly hold his own against a Fused Momoshiki, even after having his energy drained for quite some time.
3. According to the Ninja Encyclopedia, he possesses strength in the same range as adult Sasuke.

Of course, seeing as how Sage Mode is a ten-times amp, he would scale to 1.99258436 zettatons of tnt or Low 5-B with it, with Kurama Chakra Mode and above, since the Wiki accepts KCM as being superior to Sage Mode, being higher up in the chart.

The scaling will be somehow if base naruto scales to rinneagan sasuke who in turn scales to his SPSM mode. I will suggest he should be on unknown tier

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Tbh, it’s weird that we have a rule not to use the novelizations unless it’s convenient for staff. I’m not throwing accusations around, but I feel the rule should apply to them too, whatever though.

 

[Arkenis]

The scaling will be somehow if base naruto scales to rinneagan sasuke who in turn scales to his SPSM mode. I will suggest he should be on unknown tier

I don't really see why base naruto couldnt have just gotten stronger. it as been like two years since the war

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I don't really see why base naruto couldnt have just gotten stronger. it as been like two years since the war

He also has been training since.

 

[Arkenis]

Once again this is headcanon. Please provide evidence of base Naruto being able to do this with Sage Mode. Please provide evidence for curse mark users doing this. This defeats the entire purpose of Naruto having to go into Sage Mode to counter Juubi Jins and then later combine his KCM with SM.

Focused chakra to a single point > chakra distributed evenly around his body

That's simply just wordplay. 'All his might' but doesn't even use SPSM lmao. That's just scenarios and power ups that simply doesn't exist. Also last I checked the Last Novel isn't used, as stated in the sudden GWRE downgrade, so lets not do that

Could just be all his might in base.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Tbh, it’s weird that we have a rule not to use the novelizations unless it’s convenient for staff. I’m not throwing accusations around, but I feel the rule should apply to them too, whatever though.

We use all the novels unless they're contradicted, retconned, or non-canon. Please stop making stuff up.

 

[Arkenis]

He also has been training since.

Yea, there's like better feats for Shikamaru, Temari, Sai from Shikamaru's novel. most people got stronger.

 

[KingTempest]

Once again this is headcanon. Please provide evidence of base Naruto being able to do this with Sage Mode. Please provide evidence for curse mark users doing this. This defeats the entire purpose of Naruto having to go into Sage Mode to counter Juubi Jins and then later combine his KCM with SM.

Please don't tell me anything I say is headcanon when this is the same verse full of people who took a "all his might" statement as "not all his might". For all we know he's using SPSM + KCM on top of that fist. But anyways.

Here is Jugo and Sasuke, focusing Curse Mark in a specific section of their body, and their other eye isn't possessed with the curse mark.

And I don't need to bring up Naruto in SM doing it since via the SM multiplier addition they are based off of the same mechanic.

Focused chakra to a single point > chakra distributed evenly around his body

I like how you ignored half the point.
So why wouldn't he use all his chakra at his disposal and only the KCM Chakra?

That's simply just wordplay. 'All his might' but doesn't even use SPSM lmao. That's just scenarios and power ups that simply doesn't exist. Also last I checked the Last Novel isn't used, as stated in the sudden GWRE downgrade, so lets not do that

Head. Canon.
And the OP is full of statements from the novel so what are you even referring to?

The novel can be used when it doesn't contradict canon. In my copy of the novel, they say "he used all his might" then show a picture of Naruto from the movie punching Toneri.

Which is just like how the anime can be used as long as it doesn't contradict canon.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

We use all the novels unless they're contradicted, retconned, or non-canon. Please stop making stuff up.

Oh, I thought we also couldn’t use the last movie novel, i misread the discussion rule. I wasn’t accusing anyone of anything.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh, I thought we also couldn’t use the last movie novel, i misread the discussion rule. I wasn’t accusing anyone of anything.

The discussion rule is for the boruto movie novelization because the manga and anime retconned it.

We use hella novel feats, like in abilities and in AP justifications.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Shikamaru restraining the Kage:

 

[BlastX]

I feel this went down thee crapper when people vouched for Low 5-B stuff.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

it was never up the crapper, well, I knew it wouldn’t last long. Bye.

 

[KingTempest]

I feel this went down thee crapper when people vouched for Low 5-B stuff.

Yall might as well use some planetary databook statements or something instead of these scaling chains that abuse 10x multipliers

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Yall might as well use some planetary databook statements or something instead of these scaling chains that abuse 10x multipliers

Bleach:

 

[KingTempest]

Please don't tell me anything I say is headcanon when this is the same verse full of people who took a "all his might" statement as "not all his might". For all we know he's using SPSM + KCM on top of that fist. But anyways.

Here is Jugo and Sasuke, focusing Curse Mark in a specific section of their body, and their other eye isn't possessed with the curse mark.

And I don't need to bring up Naruto in SM doing it since via the SM multiplier addition they are based off of the same mechanic.

I like how you ignored half the point.
So why wouldn't he use all his chakra at his disposal and only the KCM Chakra?

Head. Canon.
And the OP is full of statements from the novel so what are you even referring to?

The novel can be used when it doesn't contradict canon. In my copy of the novel, they say "he used all his might" then show a picture of Naruto from the movie punching Toneri.

Which is just like how the anime can be used as long as it doesn't contradict canon.

I just found this

How half of his face has no Sage Mode in it.

Aww man, headcanon here too?

 

[DuDE01010]

Here is Jugo and Sasuke, focusing Curse Mark in a specific section of their body, and their other eye isn't possessed with the curse mark. And I don't need to bring up Naruto in SM doing it since via the SM multiplier addition they are based off of the same mechanic.

And Jugo is still transformed. Still waiting for a fully base SM or CM user having a 10x boost. Still waiting for that base Naruto fight with Juubito or Naruto never needing to combine his sage mode with KCM since hes now apparently always boosted and always channeling senjutsu in base.

I like how you ignored half the point.
So why wouldn't he use all his chakra at his disposal and only the KCM Chakra?

Same reason he only used SM+KCM against Toneri instead of SPSM. Because he didn't need to and that how author wanted it to be.

Head. Canon.
And the OP is full of statements from the novel so what are you even referring to?

I'm referring to my argument which you replied to.

The novel can be used when it doesn't contradict canon. In my copy of the novel, they say "he used all his might" then show a picture of Naruto from the movie punching Toneri.

Which is just like how the anime can be used as long as it doesn't contradict canon.

Tell that to Kakashi seeing the moon cut.

Word play =/= showings, unless you got solid evidence that Toneri is the strongest person Naruto has faced.

 

[DuDE01010]

I just found this

How half of his face has no Sage Mode in it.

Aww man, headcanon here too?

Nice lol. Use the scan of Naruto learning sage mode for the first time and being unable to control it. That'll prove it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Please don't tell me anything I say is headcanon when this is the same verse full of people who took a "all his might" statement as "not all his might". For all we know he's using SPSM + KCM on top of that fist. But anyways.

Are you not the same person who said trying not to kill=/=holding back, when Sasuke fought Haku, despite Kakashi himself saying Haku was stronger than everyone on Team 7?

 

[KingTempest]

And Jugo is still transformed. Still waiting for a fully base SM or CM user having a 10x boost. Still waiting for that base Naruto fight with Juubito or Naruto never needing to combine his sage mode with KCM since hes now apparently always boosted and always channeling senjutsu in base.

Jugo is transformed in a part of his body. Naruto was transformed in a part of his body, his fist, via the non contradicted statement.

Naruto wasn't channeling senjutsu in base against Juubito, he wasn't channeling anything. He used it for his whole body because there's no reason for him not to. You act like he was in his regular size doing regular taijutsu when he had to maintain an entire bijuu.

Not even adding on to the fact that SPSM wanked his chakra control to make him do shit like that, which is why he was doing 1 handed super rasenshurikens and such.

So your arguments are full of false equivalences and ignoring arguments.

Same reason he only used SM+KCM against Toneri instead of SPSM. Because he didn't need to and that how author wanted it to be.

There can be so many more reasons why he used SM + KCM instead of "he didn't need to", that's fully your own headcanon.
I could really argue that he used SPSM too focused in specific places since he was flying and high fiving truth seeking orbs, but i won't cause I don't feel like changing the argument.

Tell that to Kakashi seeing the moon cut.

Am I referring to that scene? No.

Let's drop every calc that uses the anime then since the anime has some incorrect portrayals then.

Word play =/= showings, unless you got solid evidence that Toneri is the strongest person Naruto has faced.

What in the hell are you even talking about?

Nice lol. Use the scan of Naruto learning sage mode for the first time and being unable to control it. That'll prove it.

Can you prove this has anything to do with the issue at hand? Nobody said him being unable to control it makes a difference
A portion of his face isn't transformed, which means the senjutsu chakra isn't there.

Even Madara had some sections without Senjutsu chakra when he was ripping it from Hashirama.

Now his hand is focusing all his chakra. Occams Razor proves that the chakra is in his hand.

Your argument is "we don't see marks around his eyes" when the chakra has no reason to be in his eyes in that moment.

 

[KingTempest]

Are you not the same person who said trying not to kill=/=holding back, when Sasuke fought Haku, despite Kakashi himself saying Haku was stronger than everyone on Team 7?

What does this have to do with anything?
Those are 2 different statements which don't have to do with anything.
Kaguya wasn't trying to kill Naruto and wanted his chakra, was she holding back?
Pain wasn't trying to kill Naruto and wanted his Bijuu, was he holding back?
Kisame wasn't trying to kill Bee and wanted his Bijuu, was he holding back?
Naruto wasn't trying to kill Neji, just wanted to win a fight, was he holding back?

Holding back ≠ Not trying to Kill.

Google "all his might" and find a definition that doesn't mean "all your strength and energy" and get back to me

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

once again the sage mode Multiplier breaks the scaling.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Kaguya wasn't trying to kill Naruto and wanted his chakra, was she holding back?

Then why did she throw the Ash Bones at Naruto and Sasuke, that disintegrate people, that Kakashi & Obito had to intercept?

Pain wasn't trying to kill Naruto and wanted his Bijuu, was he holding back?

You mean the fatigued Pain?

Kisame wasn't trying to kill Bee and wanted his Bijuu, was he holding back?

Yes, actually. Kisame is consistently stronger than Bee, he only lost because:

A. He was holding back.
B. Samehada betrayed him.

Naruto wasn't trying to kill Neji, just wanted to win a fight, was he holding back?

Yes, he was holding back, considering we literally saw how students could inflict fatal damage in the same exam (Sasuke putting a Chidori in Gaara).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

once again the sage mode Multiplier breaks the scaling.

Not really. The proposed scaling would still be circular even if the SM multiplier was only 1.1x or 20,000x.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Not really. The proposed scaling would still be circular even if the SM multiplier was only 1.1x or 20,000x.

No because you can still be in the same tier while having a clear hierarchy of strength that would be easy to understand.