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MonsterVerse Cleaning Up Thread.

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KieranH10

VS Battles
Retired
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Here we go... There's some really strange stuff going on I'm not gonna let get through, and I'm kinda amazed it's going to get through if I don't do this...

Ok, I got a lot of problems with the MonsterVerse right now. Mainly the High 6-A stuff going on at the minute, essentially all of it seems incorrect to me...

First off, currently Godzilla is scaling to High 6-A based on a feat accepted at 6-C. This is just blatantly wrong for obvious reasons... The Verse page also needs fixing, as the Powers of the Verse section also states that this feat is High 6-A, but the calculations section documents it at it's correct 6-C.

However I am aware there's more stuff to go over, so this isn't all... Lets get to the other stuff...

Blog 1:
  • At the start of Blog 1, we get these links: Link 1, Link 2, and Link 3(There's also a Link 4 but it takes us to Discord...)
    • Link 1:
      • "She can shatter weaker "edge pieces" of a tectonic plate. Like knapping flint. She can also manipulate fault lines"
        • This blatantly clears up that Muto Prime can only shatter the weaker edges of a tectonic plate, not the plates itself.
    • Link 2:
      • "Jinshin-Mushi is using her Earthquake triggering concussive blast directly on Godzilla. The same power, different application. Instead of shattering a tectonic plate, it shatters Godzilla directly"
        • This one would have basis if it weren't for the other statements, this contradicts what writers have said already (More commonly for that matter), and could still also refer to Prime shattering weaker parts of tectonic plates.
    • Link 3:
      • "It appears she's creating earthquakes at will! But really it's more complicated than that. When she punched the ground, she triggered a shockwave that destabilized a nearby fault line - or perhaps created a new fault line, by fracturing a weak portion of an existing plate.
        • She could have triggered a shockwave which destabilized a fault line
          • Fault lines are already unstable and that's why they're documented in the first place, so this doesn't warrant much validity
        • Once again states she can crack weak portions of plates
        • Overall this statement sounds more like theorizing altogether though so I'm questioning it's validity entirely.
  • Calulation 1:
    • I'm not even sure what's supposed to be being calculated here. I assume it's some kind of Kinetic Energy? In that case:
      • Where did the mass come from?
      • Where did the speed come from?
      • Why are we doing this?
  • Calculation 2:
    • "MUTO Prime is stated to have the ability to manipulate tectonic plates and broke their fault lines:"
      • Then gives this link
        • This link blatantly states that she can take off smaller chunks of Tectonic plates from the edges. "Like knapping flint"
    • "They should be in reach a level of magnitude 10 on Richter scale. Magnitude 10 is actually possible cause it wont be the first time we saw this, one the effect caused by the Chixculub meteor was magnitude 11.2 to 13 earthquakes depending of which documentary you are referring to."
      • This assumption has no basis whatsoever, comparing MUTO Primes earthquakes to those created by a Meteorite 10 Kilometres across without as much as a statement is a no go under any circumstances.
      • This calculation once again seems to believe that MUTO Prime is affecting full Tectonic Plates when in reality she just simply is not.
    • "Assuming she could produce that much energy by the rupture of a fault line of 150km we get for the speed: 150/3 = 50 So the Kinetic Energy is :
      (17,076,040,800,000,000,000,000*50^2)/2 = 21345051000000000000000000 Joules"
      • The speed should be in Metres per second, not Kilometres per second.
    • I could keep going on with this but Ugarik also has problems with the Blog, which have been mentioned in the comments. This blog should not be used.
  • "Remake MUTO Prime Calc"
    • "Then assuming MUTO Prime punches with the Force/Mass of a Tectonic Plate"
      • Where does this come from at all?
        • This image used gives absolutely no indication that MUTO Prime punches with the Force of a Tectonic Plate, this assumption has been fabricated from nowhere and this calculation is therefor just blatantly invalid.
    • "So it's likely that MUTO Prime prefers to manipulate Continental Plates. In conclusion it's possible for her punches to similar force/mass to the continental crust"
      • This also has no basis at all and is not valid FRA.
Blog 2:
  • Feat 1: Muto Prime shakes the world:
    • The one statement giving this just blatantly sounds like Hyperbole. The language used throughout it claims a lot of things, none of which hold any real value.
    • Afaik this stuff comes from ancient writings, which refer to the Titans as Gods, so of course they're going to think that Muto Prime could shake the entire world, it creates earthquake, yeah. I agree with that, it's blatant. But shaking the entire earth is not something it's presented as capable of.
  • Feat 2: MUTO Prime causes earthquakes by fracturing weak portions of tectonic plates:
  • Feat 3: Moving Ghidorah's Storm
    • The feat itself is valid, however the method used for scaling and such seem strange. I'm still concerned on using storms heights higher than average as I've stated before as the wiki has standards for height that should be used. I'll leave that up to staff to decide.
Minor Stuff:
The MonsterVerse's Immortality (Type 1) needs to be changed to Longevity, or needs to be justified further, as afaik there's no reason to assume they live forever, just a really, really long time.

Argo Downgrade: (Accepted)
The
Argo should in no way be scaling to the Titans, never has it been stated to be any kind of threat to them in any way, and the only times it actively attacks any of them, it is to be a distraction and nothing else. It deals no notable damage to any Titan in the movie at all. It's stats should be completely revised.
 
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Well, there do appear to be quite a bit of conflicting calculations last I heard.
 
Yes, as far as I know there are conflicting calculations. I personally believe those done by 1000TonsofFun (Blog 2) hold more bearing than the others, as the assumptions towards the calculation seem more fair in general.
I still believe that there are some errors as I have pointed out, but in general these one's seem like more reliable, accurate, fair, and consistent assumptions.
 
Yes, as far as I know there are conflicting calculations. I personally believe those done by 1000TonsofFun (Blog 2) hold more bearing than the others, as the assumptions towards the calculation seem more fair in general.
I still believe that there are some errors as I have pointed out, but in general these one's seem like more reliable, accurate, fair, and consistent assumptions.
IIRC we use Total Radiated Energy if a massive earthquake is caused on the surface and it doesn't involve you actually punching right into the tectonic fault, and that Total Seismic Energy should be used if you're striking right into the fault lines themselves, but I could be wrong.

In that case, I wouldn't mind another end for Total Radiated Energy being added as well.
 
@KLOL
I believe that's is true to a degree.
According to the Earthquake Power Chart page:
  • Total Seismic Energy should only be used for real earthquakes. It shouldn't be used for physical earthquakes or earthquakes caused through abilities.
This seems to be a case where Muto Prime is hitting the weaker parts of the surface of Tectonic Plates using it's physical strength, causing the earthquakes, chipping off the edges of the plates.
This would fall under physical earthquakes or those created through abilities, and should therefor use Radiated Waves.
 
@KLOL
I believe that's is true to a degree.
According to the Earthquake Power Chart page:

This seems to be a case where Muto Prime is hitting the weaker parts of the surface of Tectonic Plates using it's physical strength, causing the earthquakes, chipping off the edges of the plates.
This would fall under physical earthquakes or those created through abilities, and should therefor use Radiated Waves.
Oh, I see. Okay then. Total Radiated Seismic Energy should be fine to use then. Go with Magnitudes 8 (low-end), 9.5 (Mid-end) and 10 (High-end) as estimates, from there on you can choose which end is the most consistent one. Me personally I think the sweet spot is right between Magnitude 8 and 9.5.
 
I agree that somewhere between Magnitude 8 and 9.5 seems fair. Magnitude 10 seems a bit much but as you say can be a valid high end.

With fault lines varying so much in size, from millimetres to hundreds or even thousands of kilometres, I'm not sure on if feats like this are completely quantifiable, but it should at least be fair to assume the baselines given for radiated wave values for now, which get anywhere from City level to Island level from Magnitude 8 to Magnitude 10. This is consistent with the MonsterVerse Titans so far and seems accurate.
 
I agree that somewhere between Magnitude 8 and 9.5 seems fair. Magnitude 10 seems a bit much but as you say can be a valid high end.

With fault lines varying so much in size, from millimetres to hundreds or even thousands of kilometres, I'm not sure on if feats like this are completely quantifiable, but it should at least be fair to assume the baselines given for radiated wave values for now, which get anywhere from City level to Island level from Magnitude 8 to Magnitude 10. This is consistent with the MonsterVerse Titans so far and seems accurate.
We do have scans saying that the MUTO's punches generate devastating earthquakes that spread over worldwide, also a Magnitude 8.2 earthquake in Mexico was powerful enough to split a 37-mile thick tectonic plate into two pieces, and I'm pretty sure the MUTO wouldn't be much weaker than that.
 
The MonsterVerse is incredibly consistently high Tier 7 / low Tier 6.

We'd have to see the scans of worldwide earthquakes before that can be used unfortunately. With the consistency of writers stating it chips off the edges and weaker points of plates, it's likely also fair to assume anything worldwide could be via chain reaction.

That simply adds more support for Muto Primes Earthquakes being around Magnitude 8 to 9, if an earthquake on this level can break apart plates, then Muto Prime can chip off plates with similar more localised power.
 
The MonsterVerse is incredibly consistently high Tier 7 / low Tier 6.

We'd have to see the scans of worldwide earthquakes before that can be used unfortunately. With the consistency of writers stating it chips off the edges and weaker points of plates, it's likely also fair to assume anything worldwide could be via chain reaction.

That simply adds more support for Muto Primes Earthquakes being around Magnitude 8 to 9, if an earthquake on this level can break apart plates, then Muto Prime can chip off plates with similar more localised power.
I believe the scans were on the blogs of Apex and 1000Tons, I think they can give you more scans on it.
 
There's the biblical statement, which refers to damage on a massive scale, but even the stuff we're dealing with is massive in scale as it's still tectonic, granted, low end tectonic. But still regards a large area. Once again though, it's possible, and likely that anything truly tectonic or continental is through chain reaction.

There's also the World Shaking statement, but that seems to be Hyperbole when considered the relations to those who said it.
 
There's the biblical statement, which refers to damage on a massive scale, but even the stuff we're dealing with is massive in scale as it's still tectonic, granted, low end tectonic. But still regards a large area. Once again though, it's possible, and likely that anything truly tectonic or continental is through chain reaction.

There's also the World Shaking statement, but that seems to be Hyperbole when considered the relations to those who said it.
Regardless, using radiated energy should still be fine as a low-end.
 
I still stand by my calculation as the 6-C downgrade is utterly illogical to the point it's basically 100% contradictory to what's displayed to fit the baseline (which is wrong and doesn't make any sense). 6-C vaporizing a massively Ghidorah is also literally stupid, so no changes to normal stats are getting by me. High 6-C is already off a terrible lowball, any less is just stupid.

Argo downgrade is fine, though it being Tier 9 and bothering Ghidorah seems really out there to say the least. I don't know on what planet something Tier 9 makes a Tier 6 flinch, logically, even if he's getting throttled by his equal enemy.

Kinda agree that that first statement is hyperbole, but disagree that it's just radiated waves since it's directly through affecting the tectonic plate, if even a bit. Would be a weird middle ground. It's not just shaking the ground, but it's not shaking a whole tectonic plate (though the only reason given why not is because it's too big).
 
I still stand by my calculation as the 6-C downgrade is utterly illogical to the point it's basically 100% contradictory to what's displayed to fit the baseline (which is wrong and doesn't make any sense). 6-C vaporizing a massively Ghidorah is also literally stupid, so no changes to normal stats are getting by me. High 6-C is already off a terrible lowball, any less is just stupid.
The 6-C calc downgrade is a very blatant correction of a massive problem in the original High 6-A calculation, and has been accepted by staff, who even noted that the old calculation was just wrong... That has nothing to do with anything because it should already be applied since currently as of right now the High 6-A value on Burning Godzilla is based on literally nothing.

As for the Attack Harming Ghidorah, why do Tier 8 attacks harm Dragon Ball characters?
Burning Godzilla will still scale higher than 6-C, the fact that the cloud clearing feat was calculated at 6-C does not mean than Burning G has to be 6-C, or even that the full attack is only 6-C. In reality Burning G will simply go back to scaling far above Ghidorah.

As for the High 6-C stuff, I'm not having this conversation again. Last time I got called Braindead...
Argo downgrade is fine, though it being Tier 9 and bothering Ghidorah seems really out there to say the least. I don't know on what planet something Tier 9 makes a Tier 6 flinch, logically, even if he's getting throttled by his equal enemy.
That's called Plot Induced Stupidity, why did the rockets in Godzilla 2014 harm Godzilla? Because of his weak gills, sure. But weak to the point of being Tier 9? No.
These rockets were also used on Rodan and he blatantly just walked it off without noticing, so this is a clear case of PIS for Ghidorah.
Kinda agree that that first statement is hyperbole, but disagree that it's just radiated waves since it's directly through affecting the tectonic plate, if even a bit. Would be a weird middle ground. It's not just shaking the ground, but it's not shaking a whole tectonic plate (though the only reason given why not is because it's too big).
The writers have made it very clear that Muto Prime creates Earthquakes by hitting the ground with her front limbs, and does not manipulate entire plates for the reasons in the OP. Radiated Waves should absolutely be used.
 
The 6-C calc downgrade is a very blatant correction of a massive problem in the original High 6-A calculation, and has been accepted by staff, who even noted that the old calculation was just wrong... That has nothing to do with anything because it should already be applied since currently as of right now the High 6-A value on Burning Godzilla is based on literally nothing.

As for the Attack Harming Ghidorah, why do Tier 8 attacks harm Dragon Ball characters?
Burning Godzilla will still scale higher than 6-C, the fact that the cloud clearing feat was calculated at 6-C does not mean than Burning G has to be 6-C, or even that the full attack is only 6-C. In reality Burning G will simply go back to scaling far above Ghidorah.

As for the High 6-C stuff, I'm not having this conversation again. Last time I got called Braindead...

That's called Plot Induced Stupidity
, why did the rockets in Godzilla 2014 harm Godzilla? Because of his weak gills, sure. But weak to the point of being Tier 9? No.
These rockets were also used on Rodan and he blatantly just walked it off without noticing, so this is a clear case of PIS for Ghidorah.

The writers have made it very clear that Muto Prime creates Earthquakes by hitting the ground with her front limbs, and does not manipulate entire plates for the reasons in the OP. Radiated Waves should absolutely be used.
No it's not. The 6-C downgrade is based on a completely nonsensical change in mass contradictory to what the scene displays. However to fit the 'standards' of the wiki, which are an entirely different mess in themselves, something that makes no sense is accepted. The end I created was simple and to the point, hardly any room for error and took the factors used and accepted already. Yours just makes too many contradictions to make sense. If the staff already accepted it, fine, whatever. Edit the page. Definitely not a proper analysis, nor consistent.

Considering that though, a more in-depth CRT should be done.

......they don't. They never do.

The fact they accepted such a horrendous lowball that again contradicts what's displayed is no fault of yours, defending it however, is.

I'd say more Tier 8 for the Argo personally, it did survive some lightning strikes caused by Ghidorah's storm so it should bare minimum be equal to natural lightning. That'd make a little more sense with the kaiju even noticing its presence.

Not true, radiated waves implies it's your average shaking feat, which this is not.
 
We don't use lightning feats that way anymore since not all the energy is in the bolt, much of it disperses
 
No it's not. The 6-C downgrade is based on a completely nonsensical change in mass contradictory to what the scene displays. However to fit the 'standards' of the wiki, which are an entirely different mess in themselves, something that makes no sense is accepted. The end I created was simple and to the point, hardly any room for error and took the factors used and accepted already. Yours just makes too many contradictions to make sense. If the staff already accepted it, fine, whatever. Edit the page. Definitely not a proper analysis, nor consistent.
The original calculation was wrong for a multitude of reasons, and even the original calculation was only going to the horizon and not using the full storm, if that's what you're referring to. So the entire storms mass should not have been used in literally any of the calculations on the blog, even yours.
......they don't. They never do.
Yeah, lower tier stuff always harms higher tier characters, that's fiction.
The fact they accepted such a horrendous lowball that again contradicts what's displayed is no fault of yours, defending it however, is.
I'm only defending it for the reasons I mentioned last time, and for the record, i'm still looking into getting literally anything more from the panels given. But like I said, the angle of the shot makes it difficult.
I'd say more Tier 8 for the Argo personally, it did survive some lightning strikes caused by Ghidorah's storm so it should bare minimum be equal to natural lightning. That'd make a little more sense with the kaiju even noticing its presence.
This I agree with, some of the explosions from even the smaller Jets will very easily get into Tier 8 by the looks of it. Another reason it could have made the monsters flinch is because even tier 8 explosions carry a huge amount of force behind them, so they may not carry enough energy to harm the Titans, but they can still carry enough force to knock them around a little bit.
Not true, radiated waves implies it's your average shaking feat, which this is not.
A simple shaking feat often isn't even treated as an earthquake, Radiated Waves covers artificial earthquakes created through the likes of Meteor Strikes and more, which hitting the ground super hard would definitely fall into.
We don't use lightning feats that way anymore since not all the energy is in the bolt, much of it disperses
With how close the Argo was to the Bolts origin, and the fact that it isn't on the floor like most targets for lightning, means the Bolt would have very little room to disperse.
However that is a valid point, I'll ask staff how this feat should be treated.
 
The calculation isn't the problem, afaik the maths for what's being calculated is fine. But what's actually being calculated is wrong.
 
1000TonsofFun asked KLOL for some help with the calculation iirc. Who has helped in this thread and now seems to agree that Radiated Waves should be used.
But yes, help from 1000TonsofFun would also be appreciated on this thread.
 
The original calculation was wrong for a multitude of reasons, and even the original calculation was only going to the horizon and not using the full storm, if that's what you're referring to. So the entire storms mass should not have been used in literally any of the calculations on the blog, even yours.

Yeah, lower tier stuff always harms higher tier characters, that's fiction.

I'm only defending it for the reasons I mentioned last time, and for the record, i'm still looking into getting literally anything more from the panels given. But like I said, the angle of the shot makes it difficult.

This I agree with, some of the explosions from even the smaller Jets will very easily get into Tier 8 by the looks of it. Another reason it could have made the monsters flinch is because even tier 8 explosions carry a huge amount of force behind them, so they may not carry enough energy to harm the Titans, but they can still carry enough force to knock them around a little bit.

A simple shaking feat often isn't even treated as an earthquake, Radiated Waves covers artificial earthquakes created through the likes of Meteor Strikes and more, which hitting the ground super hard would definitely fall into.
Yes it should have, because it clearly disperses the entire storm or at least a vast majority. Otherwise there would still be nothing but darkness, rail and lightning in the distance, not the rising morning Sun. It makes ZERO sense for only a tiny chunk of the storm to be moved (or vaporized or whatever) and reveal the bright morning sky, unless the energy wave also shot 20 kilometers up, where hurricanes reach their top points in real life generally (some reach 75,000 feet) or something like that. Under that lens, your calc is still disingenuously low and makes no sense. It contradicts what's displayed ON SCREEN, so it's not even remotely accurate. I noticed mine needs some corrections but not the ones displayed (I forgot you do 1/12th for cloud KE now instead of 1/2, etc)

PIS aside, when?

I am aware as I've tried myself to get a closer look at it. It's hard to tell since we never see the rock land and we only see it above Godzilla's head.

That's fair enough I suppose though still comes off as weird considering a literally just short of dead Godzilla was unharmed by a rather powerful detonation (again like half of a nuke is the blast so that's a lot of force). Given the stuff displayed, I'd say like large building for the Argo sounds alright.

I suppose that's fair enough.
 
Yes it should have, because it clearly disperses the entire storm or at least a vast majority. Otherwise there would still be nothing but darkness, rail and lightning in the distance, not the rising morning Sun. It makes ZERO sense for only a tiny chunk of the storm to be moved (or vaporized or whatever) and reveal the bright morning sky, unless the energy wave also shot 20 kilometers up, where hurricanes reach their top points in real life generally (some reach 75,000 feet) or something like that. Under that lens, your calc is still disingenuously low and makes no sense. It contradicts what's displayed ON SCREEN, so it's not even remotely accurate. I noticed mine needs some corrections but not the ones displayed (I forgot you do 1/12th for cloud KE now instead of 1/2, etc)
You just aren't listening to me at this point, every single calculation on that blog only takes out a small chunk of the storm, meaning no calculation on that blog should use the full mass of the storm, because none of them are calculating moving the full storm. I am not correcting distance, someone else did that, I'm correcting that while we have to use the distance given by the wiki, not all of the storm is being moved, so not all of the mass should be used.
PIS aside, when?
That's what I'm saying, PIS is all over the place in fiction, why is this any different?
I am aware as I've tried myself to get a closer look at it. It's hard to tell since we never see the rock land and we only see it above Godzilla's head.
Yes, like I say though I am still looking to get something from it, but I don't know when it will be done
That's fair enough I suppose though still comes off as weird considering a literally just short of dead Godzilla was unharmed by a rather powerful detonation (again like half of a nuke is the blast so that's a lot of force). Given the stuff displayed, I'd say like large building for the Argo sounds alright.
Yeah, I suppose that does seem strange. I'll be calculating all of the linked explosions in the next week or so, so we'll have a definitive number on the AP of the rockets.
Edit: Got bored and did the Argo calcs already... Blog here...
 
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So the MUTO Prime big punch can’t be used because he doesn’t completely manipulate tectonic plates? That makes sense but I still think this feat could upgrade the verse if I could properly calculate it. The ghidorah feat is could potentially be higher because I never factored in the weird spurs at the side of the storm.
 
So the MUTO Prime big punch can’t be used because he doesn’t completely manipulate tectonic plates? That makes sense but I still think this feat could upgrade the verse if I could properly calculate it. The ghidorah feat is could potentially be higher because I never factored in the weird spurs at the side of the storm.
Unfortunately there isn't really a way to calculate it given the lack of detail. I think simply using the radiated waves given values here would be much more reliable than making assumptions.
As for Ghidorah's storm moving feat I think it's fine as it is, but if there's a reliable way to calculate anything more that you feel comfortable doing then I suppose that's fine. It doesn't seem necessary in my opinion however.
 
I think it's at least a tad necessary considering the push to mountain like a month ago, for consistency sake at least. I stand by the ranges of 6-B as the most concrete range for the MV high tiers, High/6-C feats being done rather casually I think helps that case.
 
That also goes in hand with the proposal of the OP. The writers are making it very clear that she can break and manipulate smaller, weaker parts of tectonic plates, not entire plates.
Yes! She can manupulate tectonic plates. I imagined this as her exploiting weaknesses in fault lines that she discovers as she travels underground. So it's not that she magically "wills" earthquakes to happen and hey presto, it's all science-based.
 
I think it's at least a tad necessary considering the push to mountain like a month ago, for consistency sake at least. I stand by the ranges of 6-B as the most concrete range for the MV high tiers, High/6-C feats being done rather casually I think helps that case.
The MonsterVerse has a huge number more High Tier 7 / Low Tier 6 feats than it does Mid to High Tier 6. I think this range is where the MonsterVerse is intended, top this with Monsters like Rodan being compared to Nuclear weapons, and more, makes Low Tier 6 seem much more reliable imo.
 
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