Mondaiji-tachi upgrade, again.....

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Okay so.....where should i start? Because there are tons of feats in Mondaiji-tachi so i can't tell all of them right here

 

[ZeoParadox]

Following

 

[NotEvenHuman]

You should probably start with Izayoi's physical AP. Once that's done, you can go into Aurora Pillar.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

You should probably start with Izayoi's physical AP. Once that's done, you can go into Aurora Pillar.

Nah i don't think it's a great idea, i should start with the cosmology of the verse first then i will go straight to the characters

But do you agree that there are many errors in the English translation from volume 1 to 10? This is really important question

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Yes, there are quite a few errors.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Yes, there are quite a few errors.

not just "a few" anymore, i checked from volume 1 and there are errors from chapter 1 to 3....

anyway, about my friend's translation, his translation got recognized by Mondaiji translator Frozen, Frozen is a Japanese translator, while my friend translate both Chinese and Japanese, so i think that you wouldn't have to worry about my friend's translation

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

In case you want the link of Frozen: frozensama.blogspot.com

 

[NotEvenHuman]

I saw that on Frozen's blog yesterday. Though you also asked about a different quote, and Frozen said they didn't even remember that one.

I think you should just start with the "upgrades" already.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need him to explain his proof first. The last time, the profiles ended up very incoherently written.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

I saw that on Frozen's blog yesterday. Though you also asked about a different quote, and Frozen said they didn't even remember that one.

I think you should just start with the "upgrades" already.

It could be Frozen haven't translate that part yet and also he said that he didn't know Chinese, but that doesn't matter because he already recognized my friend's Japanese translation

I will start with the Cosmology of the verse first then i will go to character profiles, i will be back for couple of hours

 

[Promestein]

You should discuss things without making big changes

 

[Antvasima]

Exactly. Othervise we will just have to delete them again.

 

[Gabriel_00]

.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Here is the Cosmology of Mondaiji-tachi

The Little Garden is the sea of infinite possibilities that is far surpass the universe, it contained countless multiverses which are like elementary particles piled up in a garden. It is a world where multitudes of planes of time-streams coincided with each other which increased its density of existence, a world that universally connected to all time-streams of outer worlds and outer universes, exists across all time axes and is where all time-streams exist.

A time-stream is easily a multiverse of infinite universes (each universe has infinite possibilities and everyone has infinite versions, our Izayoi is simple one of infinite "Izayoi"s exists out there, let not mention infinite "Izayoi who is not Izayoi" or infinite different versions of Nobunaga). Izayoi, Yo and Asuka were summoned from different eras of one and same time-stream even though they were originally came from different time-streams. The only way to make their specific points to concentrate within the same time-stream is to have an ability which can establish another time-stream where simultaneous observation of their specific points is possible.

In Little Garden, there exists numerous of different realms which is where gods of different mythological faction resided, or self-contained worlds like Game Boards and countless cosmologies which were created by gods (any god is a living cosmology as they all possess "Another Cosmology"). It is a world where past ages and future eras, facts and fictions are mixed.

There also exist countless Paradigm Shift ("Historical Transition Period") - the turning points of history of outer universes, the convergence point of parallel worlds. Paradigm Shifts can be triggered in various ways and a slight change can give birth to infinitude of parallel universes which correspond to these changes from multiple perspectives (for example, "the retreat of Oda Nobunaga from history", if he is alive and didn't give up his ambition, then parallel worlds which correspond to these changes will be born and its history will be vastly different from the problem children trio's time-streams).

However, universes of far distant future which had overcame end-time of their world or otherworldly universes like where the Cthulhu Mythos pantheon exist are outside the time-stream of these Paradigm Shifts.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mondaiji-tachi-respect-thread.391322/#post-22448564 check right here

 

[Antvasima]

You will have to post the specific explanations of any feats within this thread.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Alright

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——The trio of Sakamaki Izayoi, Kudou Asuka and Kasukabe Yō, who came from different ages/eras that were summoned from one and same time-stream/multiverse. According to this point, the only possible theory is that this space/dimension which named "Little Garden" should be able to maintain its connection status to the time-streams of outer worlds permanently, or this space itself is a place where all time-streams exist.

About the summoning points being limited by the intersection points of possibilities, is because at this place there are only planes of different time-streams coincided with each other in every instant, that will increase the density of existence of "Little Garden".

If there was only an example like that, Izayoi won't be convinced with that and it can only stay at hypothesis stage. But having taken all the enemies and Demon Kings that he had fought until now into consideration, he found that if that hypothesis was not like that then he won't able to come up with a reasonable logic.

Like "Perseus", on the World of Izayoi, they are characters of ancient legends, but this is not true.

But there were people who said that their ancestors and the group of Izayoi are likewise, are foreigners being summoned to this Little Garden. This is the proof showing that there are extending/expansive threads/strings of different possibilities, the one called "Perseus" is indeed a character that once existed. There is also this matter in which Leticia and her Vampires who came from even a far distant future of humanity, can be also used a proof of this.

——A world where previous/past ages and latter/future eras, facts and fictions are mixed with each other.

Simply by the hypothesis that "Little Garden" exists across all different time-streams, or connects to all different time-streams with each other, then all deduction that he made would be reasonable.

(... However, to be able to summon plural number of specific people from inside infinite possibilities... Is such feat really possible?)

Indeed —— The which called "exists across all different time-streams", represented for what being able to summon an infinite number of the person that named "Izayoi", at the same time, it can be viewed as being able to summon "Izayoi who is not Izayoi that is at this place at the moment", in a word, that is being able summon other people. That different Izayoi and the present Izayoi will have different interests and hobbies from each other, the path of their life will, too, will be different. There might be a chance that person is a female as well.

About the part of the argument "In the case of the same character(s) exists, one of them will be completely different from the other", is because of the proofs provided by the "Pied Piper of Hamelin". "Pied Piper of Hamelin", under one same fact, under one same tradition/inheritance where inside it the things that exist in a plurality of number are the nature of its characters' images/figures and events, moreover, they are residents who were living in the world containing different possibilities.

The ocean of possibilities that is far surpass the vast universe. Izayoi is completely unable to imagine what kind of magical method and ability that can move out a single specific individual from inside that vast ocean.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Second:

——þ«▒Õ║¡õ©ûþòîÚüìÕÅèÕ¡ÿÕ£¿õ║ÄÕÉäþ¿«õ©ìÕÉîþÜäµÖéÚûôÞ╗©þÀÜõ©èÒÇé

õ¢┐µÿ»ÞÖøµºïþÜäÕÅ▓Õ»ª´╝îÕ£¿ÕŪõ©Çµ«ÁµÖéÚûôµÁüõ©¡õ╣ƒµ£âµêÉþé║õ©Çµ«Áþ£ƒµ¡úþÜäÕÅ▓Õ»ª´╝îÞÇîõ©öÕªéµ×£Þâ¢þ¼ªÕÉêÕ¥îõ©ûµøåÕÅ▓þÜäÚéÅÞ╝»´╝îÕ░▒µ£âÞó½ÕàüÞ¿▒Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇéÚÇÖÕ░▒µÿ»þ«▒Õ║¡ÚÇÖÕÇïÕ£░µû╣þÜäþ£ƒµ¡úÚØóÞ▓îÒÇé

—— The World of Little Garden exists across all kinds of different time axes/axises.

Even if it there was a fictional fact, in an another time-stream, it will become a historical fact, moreover, in the case of it fit the history of future generations, it is allowable to it to exist. This is the true form of this place, the Little Garden itself.

Third:

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õ╣ƒÕ░▒µÿ»õ┐ùþ¿▒"Õàêµ£ëÚø×Úéäµÿ»Õàêµ£ëÞøï(Bootstrap┬ÀParadox)".

µ¡úÕøáþé║ÞºúÚûïõ║åÚÇÖÕÇïµéûÞ½û,µëìÕ¥ùõ╗ÑÚÜ▒ÞùÅþ«▒Õ║¡õ©ûþòîþÜäþ£ƒÕ»ª……õ╣ƒÞ¬¬õ©ìÕ«Ü,õ¢åÚÇÖÞêçµ£¼þ»çµ▓Ƶ£ëÕñÜÕñºÚù£þ│╗.

Although it's now the playground of the Gods, but it is originally a world that its Creator God created for the purpose to make the outer worlds to deploy correctly——In a word, the Universe of Third Person View/Observation.

In Vol.6, Izayoi said that "Little Garden and the time-streams of outer worlds are universally connected". This is the assumption made from the fact that three of problem children were summoned from different time-streams that he guessed from the words he heard.

Sadly, however! This is only half of half-wrong.

Izayoi's steps of reasoning from before is probably as follows.

Assuming the specific historical points of three problem children of them as ╬▒╬▓╬│, to make all of these specific points to concentrate within the same time-stream, there must be a talent/an ability to establish another time-stream where the simultaneous observation of ╬▒╬▓╬│ is possible, such thing must necessarily exist.

This is why this problem child defined the World of Little Garden as "Little Garden is universally linked with outer universes along with the time-streams of outer worlds".

Everything until now is correct, but it is a little insufficient.

In the source of primordial beginning, gods are existences who was built when humanity faith was founded and was established when history was created. But, gods adjust and manipulate the history of humanity, this leads of a contradiction between gods and humanity, which side exists first?

This what commonly known as "The chicken first or the egg first (Bootstrap┬ÀParadox)?".

Because if there is someone can who can solve this paradox, that person might be able to uncover the truth of the World of Little Garden... Just maybe, but this has little relationship with the main storyline.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Þü¢Õê░ÕìüÕà¡Õñ£Úéúµ»½þäíµÄ®Úú¥þÜäÞ®▒´╝îÕô¬µÇòµÿ»þªªÚûÇÚçïÕñ®õ╣ƒõ©ìÕ¥ùõ©ìÞïªþ¼æÒÇéþó║Õ»ª´╝îÚÇÖõ╣ƒþ«ùµÿ»õ©ìÞâ¢ÕáéÕá鵡úµ¡úÕòÅÕç║õ¥åþÜäÕòÅÚíîÒÇéõ╗ûÚøûµÿ»þ½ïõ║Äþäíµò©þÑ×ÚØêõ╣ïõ©èþÜäþ£¥þÑ×õ╣ïþÄï´╝îõ¢åÕ£¿ÚÇÖÕÇïþö▒ÕÉäþ¿«ÕñÜÕàâÕ«çÕ«ÖÕªéþ▓ÆÕ¡ÉÞê¼Õáåþ®ìÞÁÀõ¥åþÜäþ«▒Õ║¡õ©¡Õëçµ£¬Õ┐àժ鵡ñÒÇé

Hearing what Izayoi said without any hiding, even Mikado Tokuteru can't help but to force a bitter smile upon himself. Honestly, this is also because that he can't ask that problem straight up. Although, he is the King of Gods who stood above countless gods, but in here where all/various kinds of multiverses like elementary particles piled up inside Little Garden, it is not necessarily so.

Õ¢╝Òü»ÕñÜÒüÅÒü«þÑ×Ú£èÒü«õ©èÒü½þ½ïÒüñþÑ×ÒÇàÒü«þÄïÒüáÒüîÒÇüµºÿÒÇàÒü¬ÕñÜÕàâÕ«çÕ«ÖÒüîþ▓ÆÕ¡ÉÒü«µºÿÒü½þ®ìÒü┐ÚçìÒü¬ÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéìÒüôÒü«þ«▒Õ║¡ÒüºÒü»ÒüØÒü«ÚÖÉÒéèÒüºÒü»Òü¬ÒüäÒÇé

Although he is the King of Gods who stands above many Divine Spirits/Gods, it is not so in this Little Garden where various multiverses stacked/piled up like various (elementary) particles.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but this is just about the existence of infinite universes, not about the appropriate character scaling.

In addition, I am having doubts about if it is a good idea to feature these characters within profiles here.

If the available English translation is very different from your own, people won't be able to confirm whether or not your interpretations of the feats are correct.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Okay, but this is just about the existence of infinite universes, not about the appropriate character scaling.

In addition, I am having doubts about if it is a good idea to feature these characters within profiles her.

If the available English translation is very different from your own, people won't be able to confirm whether or not your interpretations of the feats are correct.

I'm just posting about the cosmology of the verse, once you already approve this then i can go to the characters, because the cosmology of Mondaiji-tachi is the most important part for debate

about the current English translation on Baka-Tsuki, from volume 1 to 10 (Since volume 9 is just the short stories and it doesn't belong the main storyline so i haven't check it yet) is very horrible, it won't be an exaggeration to say that most all of the feats in the current English translation are completely messed up.

That's why i have to create the respect thread on Spacebattles and posted the original Chinese translation as a proof how awful the English translation is. If you want i can post every single Chinese idioms and compare with the English translation, but this may take a while.

 

[Alakabamm]

Reading through all of this, it just sounds like Little Garden is connected to every single possibility, not that it is some massive hyperverse of large dimensionality that composes all of them.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Alakabamm.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Volume 12 already confirmed that Little Garden contained countless of multiverses that piled up like elementary particles, Little Garden is a Third Observable Universe which universally connected with outer time-streams and outer worlds, a sea of infinite possibilities that far wider than the universe, NOT connected with every single possibility like you said. Also Little Garden have tons of mythical cosmologies created by the 3-Digit Gods, wait a sec, i didn't mention that there are infinite Shuras, Gods and Buddhas gathered in Little Garden.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

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Although he is the King of Gods who stands above many Divine Spirits/Gods, it is not so in this Little Garden where various multiverses stacked/piled up like various (elementary) particles.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Although it's now the playground of the Gods, but it is originally a world that its Creator God created for the purpose to make the outer worlds to deploy correctly——In a word, the Universe of Third Person View/Observatio.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Õªéµ×£µÿ»ÚÇÖÕÇïÕîàÕɽþäíÚÖÉÕÅ»Þ⢵ǺþÜäþ«▒Õ║¡,ÚéúÚ║╝Õì│õ¢┐Õ£¿ÚÇÖÕÇïÚ│Ñþ▒áõ©¡õ╣ƒÞâ¢ÚüçÕ¥ùÕê░µëìÕ░ì.

If it is this Little Garden which contains/encompasses infinite possibilities, then it is possible to meet one even inside this bird cage.

 

[Alakabamm]

The first one sounds like a way of saying that there are people from many different universes in Little Garden, not that it's "elementary particles" themselves are composed of multiverses. The use of the word "like" there indicates that it is indeed just a figure of speech.

Every single "possibility" is really just another way of saying every single parallel universe, which is what you have posted sounds like. If multiverse theory is indeed true, then even our earth would be "connected" to every possibility in some way or form. That is by definition.

Now, you say Little Garden has some special status as "the universe of Third Person View/Observation" (although I suppose you mean the universe LG resides in, because I recall it being stated that LG is actually a giant non-planet like structure the size of a star), but this was never explained.

You also keep using "cosmology" - is that the "game boards," so to speak, that certain Demon Lords can call upon? Aren't those just dimensions of unconfirmed size?

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Da hell? The test in volume 12 already stated that there are countless of multiverses piled up inside Little Garden, how the hell you can understand that there are many people from different universes in Little Garden? It has nothing to do with the part "multiverses" and how the hell using the word "like" making this sentence "figure of speech"?

Since when a possibility in Mondaiji = a parallel universe? Each universe already contained infinite possibilities, for example, when summon Izayoi we can summon infinite Izayoi and infinite Izayoi who is not Izayoi. Little Garden is the ocean of infinite possibilities that far wider than the universe.

Little Garden has 2 meaning: A "land" which havw the surface area equal with the sun and the Third Observable Universe which contained countless of multiverses

The cosmology here are the mythical cosmologies of the 3-Digit Gods, they all possessed "Another Cosmology" in which making themselves are the human-sized universes/cosmologies. Each Chief God in different pantheons ruled their own cosmologies such as Buddhism's Three Thousand Worlds, Norse's Asgard,....The Game Board and the "cosmology" are completely two different things

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Little Garden is universally connected with outer universes and puter time-streams

Let's talk about a time-stream in Mondaiji.

For example, there isn't only an Izayoi but also infinite "Izayoi" and even an infinite number of "Izayoi who is not the Izayoi in Little Garden", a slight difference in every moment and an "if" results an infinitely branching of parallel universes.

As for our problem children trio, Izayoi, Asuka and Yo were people who originated from different universes, different possibilities and different eras. Asuka is originated from a post-WWII universe whose history is vastly different from Izayoi's and Yo's universe is a futuristic universe which totally unlike of the previous two. But they are similar to Izayoi in the regard that was said above.

The trio are all originated from one and same time-stream. To be exact, they got their time-streams concentrated within one and same time-stream by the creation of a time-stream where simultaneous observation of their time-streams possible. This is the standard procedure to summon people to Little Garden.

Of course, the trio's universes are just three among the infinite universes and possibilities of different eras and different histories in their time-stream.

Not to mention Paradigm Shifts which are turning points of history of every universe, where a slight shift in those important time would result even infinite more branching points where parallel universes and possibilities correspond to them will be vastly different from the original universe and the original history. And there are Paradigm Shifts on many scales, some are "large", some are "small" depend on various factors in those universes.

 

[Antvasima]

Watch your tone. I will not tolerate disrespect towards the staff members.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, are you absolutely certain that the multiverses are actually contained within Little Garden, and not simply connected to it?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, a multiverse is usually considered to be the sum totality of all alternative timelines.

 

[Alakabamm]

And this all only makes sense in the purview of multiverse theory, which predates this series existence significantly.

What your quotes are saying don't line up with what you espouse. Just having "infinite possibilities" is just acknowledging that multiverse theory is true. It doesn't make this universe "special" in any way. What makes it special is that quote you posted about it being a third world, but that doesn't mean anything if the author doesn't care to define it further. For all I know, it just means that LG is at the center of all parallel universes in some fashion....

And it has EVERYTHING to do with the word multiverses. The only reason you care is because it says multiverses. But the statement itself is a figure of speech. Saying it like that, when it was previously talked about in other quotes you posted that there are many people/things/gods from different time streams in LG, just implies that there are different INHABITANTS of multiverses in LG. Why should I take it literally when that was previously explained and the word "like" is placed into there? It is a figure of speech very clearly.

I don't see any quotes about cosmologies being universe sized either...proof?

Also, you keep saying that "Little Garden is the ocean of possibilities larger than the universe"...where in the book does it say that directly? I see a translation about Izayoi's thoughts that says that "something" (which, based on what I read, is multiverse theory) is an ocean of possibilities greater than the universe...but never Little Garden itself. That's just baseless extrapolation.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Alakabamm.

In addition, in the past your profiles have been very sloppily written, with bad explanations, so I do not know if it is a good idea to let you create them again.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

And this all only makes sense in the purview of multiverse theory, which predates this series existence significantly.

What your quotes are saying don't line up with what you espouse. Just having "infinite possibilities" is just acknowledging that multiverse theory is true. It doesn't make this universe "special" in any way. What makes it special is that quote you posted about it being a third world, but that doesn't mean anything if the author doesn't care to define it further. For all I know, it just means that LG is at the center of all parallel universes in some fashion....

And it has EVERYTHING to do with the word multiverses. The only reason you care is because it says multiverses. But the statement itself is a figure of speech. Saying it like that, when it was previously talked about in other quotes you posted that there are many people/things/gods from different time streams in LG, just implies that there are different INHABITANTS of multiverses in LG. Why should I take it literally when that was previously explained and the word "like" is placed into there? It is a figure of speech very clearly.

I don't see any quotes about cosmologies being universe sized either...proof?

Also, you keep saying that "Little Garden is the ocean of possibilities larger than the universe"...where in the book does it say that directly? I see a translation about Izayoi's thoughts that says that "something" (which, based on what I read, is multiverse theory) is an ocean of possibilities greater than the universe...but never Little Garden itself. That's just baseless extrapolation.

Can you please DON'T apply real life Multiverse Theory in fiction please? Especially in Mondaiji-tachi verse, it doesn't follow your so-called Multiverse theory either.

From the interlude 2 of volume 11, when Croix was finding Canaria, it already stated that Little Garden contained iinfinite possibilities itself. Little Garden mixed with past, future, fact and fiction. There are infinite shuras, gods and buddhas gathered in Little Garden, but that doesn't even related with the fact that Little Garden already has countless of multiverses piled up like elementary particles.

 

[Antvasima]

Little Garden already has countless of multiverses piled up like elementary particles.

We need irrefutable proof of such an outlandish claim.

 

[Alakabamm]

They are literally talking about it in those selection of quotes you give...the "infinite number of Izayois" and "infinity possibilities" is in fact traditional multiverse theory.

If multiverse theory is ever proven true, then even our world would have the same amount of infinite possibilities that Little Garden has...this is probably why your quotes never say that "only Little Garden" has infinite possibilities, but rather that they just exist.

And, again, that multiverse quote is a figure of speech, one, because it uses "like" in it (a dead giveaway) and two, because it only connects to how they were previously talking about LG when you consider it as people from many alternate universes rather than universes in and of themselves.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

..........

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"þäíµò░" = numberless/innumerable/countless; "ÕñÜÕàâÕ«çÕ«Ö" = multiverse => þäíµò░Òü«ÕñÜÕàâÕ«çÕ«Ö = countless of multiverses

 

[Alakabamm]

That doesn't even address anything, I already read the quote