Mondaiji Problem

[ALRF]

Note: This thread only discusses the problem with Mondaiji and this site and is to serve as a note in case this topic is brought up in the future

If you've been on this wiki, you'll know that Mondaiji is famously known for being deleted (2 or 3 times!). Why you ask? Well there are so many reasons

Inaccurate Translation (Baka Tsuki)
This is the main problem Mondaiji suffered from at first. Inaccurate translations from Baka Tsuki. This resulted in confusion on the cosmology of the verse, its settings, nature and more importantly, feats.

To give a simple example:

The wicked blades of the three headed dragon were pulsing with an unlimited energy. Volume 10

The japanese quote:

ÕçÂÕêâÒü½õ©çÕèøÒéÆÞ¥╝ÒéüÒéïõ©ëÚá¡Ú¥ìÒÇé translates to The three headed dragon put all of his strength into his wicked blades

Just look at how one sentence is easily mistranslated. And there's so much sentences like this, you could clearly see the Baka Tsuki TL isn't reliable at all.

Sadly...this isn't the only problem Mondaiji suffered from, in fact, this is only the beginning

Mondaiji
The verse itself is (for all my love for it), a complete mess. And there is so much i can say about it that really just doesn't make sense. Let us start with some of them:

• Statements and feats:

Good ol' Mondaiji sure doesn't disappoint us when it comes to statements. Izayoi can shake stars or Izayoi can destroy stars and this is literally repeated for like all the freaking volumes. Then we have the famous statements that has the All of creation part. What is so weird is how this statements doesn't correlate to feats itself...or even other statements.

When we go by feats, we see stuff like Izayoi pulling a large tsunami with all his strength, with said tsunami being capable of engulfing a large city. Or Izayoi beating the hell out of His Highness, all with many statements of "destroying mountains and rivers". Or their clash destroying sectors of Kouen City. Or their clash of Another Cosmology would have completely blown out Kouen City...when previously in volume 3, Baron La Croix stated that his Dimension could only be destroyed by attack that has power capable of shattering stars themselves. Then there's Izayoi famous attack punch against Azi Dahaka, who had continental density. Said density was so hard that even Izayoi screwed his arm up, additionally said attack of Izayoi was said comparable to the "planetary crustal movement"...so yeah, you can see the huge inconsistency of this verse

• Settings of the verse:

Another way this verse gets more frustrating is its settings. There are beings called 3 Digits beings or Almighty Domain. These beings have genuine omnipotence and omniscience, being limited by only Omnipotence Paradox

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Yet said "Omnipotent and Omniscient beings" have limitations (such as the inability to manipulate Akashic Records)...

Clashes of "Another Cosmology" which is stated to literally destroy cosmology of opposing enemy, yet in terms of showings, it is on city level. In fact, during clash of Cosmology between Izayoi and Azi Dahaka, they only turned an entire volcano to subatomic particles

Summarize
So as you can see both the Baka Tsuki Translation and the verse itself makes it very hard to make an accurate interpretation on the power level of it.

Mondaiji as a whole suffers from this whole statements over feats. Many of them don't conform to the various showings a lot of characters have shown. And in addition, settings of the verse can make Mondaiji very easily wanked.

• Take every word with a grain of salt. Don't assume a character is on a certain level just because of statements. Feats are very much what should we go with, as they are the most accurate way to give statistics to the characters of MT. Statements that are however consistent with each other could be used for ratings.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

About time this happened.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

^Couldn't agree more myself.

 

[ALRF]

I just find it extremely worrying that Azi Dahaka would go from Multiversal+ to a wooping Continent/Multi-Continent guy O_O

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Kek to that.

I really just want this issue to be resolved, though.

 

[ALRF]

This should be like, the final thread about this mess.

After that, no more lol.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

ALRF doing God's work.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

INB4 TL conflict happens lol

You all know that's going to happen for sure.

 

[ALRF]

Aye

I'll start working on the profiles as soon as i can

And i'll try my best to make a blog explaining the cosmology and terminology of this verse (though it will take time considering how huge this verse is)

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Reminds me of a blog I want to do for the Fate verse to try and explain stuff there. But that's irrelevant here and for another time.

@AL I was thinking you'd do the opposite but whatever works with you rn.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, are sun authorities being able to control stars legit?

 

[ALRF]

Sorry for the long response, was busy till now

As far as it goes, it should be. Those with Sun Authority have complete authority over them. As shown in Leticia's short story, where each holder of the zodiac sign caused the respective stars to fall down

Those with the entire Sun Authority of the twelve Zodiacs can even make them disappear, possibly.

µø┤Òü½Ú╗äÚüôÒü«Õñ¬ÚÖ¢õ©╗µ¿®ÒüîÒüéÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÚ╗äÚüôÕìüõ║îµÿƒÕ║ºÒéÆÕñ®ÒüïÒéëµÂêµ╗àÒüòÒüøÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒééÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒÇé

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

So some Star level feats exist here still, yes? Or at least, just being able to move them which seems to be a thing that counts here but yeah...

 

[Antvasima]

@ALRF

It would probably be good if you insert a version of the first post text into a section of the verse page.

 

[ALRF]

It's sadly one of Mondaiji mechanics that doesn't relate to AP really

Heracles had Leo authority yet he's at best continent level

 

[ALRF]

@Ant

Yeah i'll try to make something in the verse page

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@AL: Awwww...whelp GG.

 

[The_Causality]

If the Mondaji verse is downgraded to Multi-Continent Level, this should be the most powerfull downgrade of this site

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Only the star level stuff seems to be downgraded.

We haven't really talked about the high end feats yet, if the multiversal+ stuff is still legit.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I wouldn't really care if Mondaiji was like Mountain level. I just, again, want this to be settled and not have to have deleted like five or six times or so Everlasting shared with me of this fact the other day...

 

[ALRF]

If you mean cosmology? Probably

But someone being Multiversal? No, no one is

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Al: Is 6-A or High 6-A really just the highest the verse will go in terms of raw potency or some such? Just making sure we're all clear here on this.

 

[ALRF]

As of now, it is mostly 6-A

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Right...that's a shame. But not too concerned with it tbh.

I would assume Last Embryo has something but I'm not so confident myself to answer it strongly. I know Arian mentioned of reading it seeing as he talked about its latest vol of vol 6 but that was just it.

Wonder if he might be of help but wouldn't know lest we asked him or he sees this by chance.

 

[ALRF]

I honestly don't like to bother Arian about revision stuff since he's mostly interested talking about verses in terms of storytelling and so on

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Same as me xD

Fair point. LE can come later anyways. The main series is the top priority here.

 

[Siegfried10]

Lets see, in Last Embryo V3 we get this feat from a little girl.

Seconds later, along with a flick, that gas of hydrogen and oxygen caused a blinding light and then a gigantic explosion. The hydrogen explosion, created by dividing dozens of tons of water, had split the great river into two parts and made it overflow, blowing everything around it with a force that made one question whether it would blow apart the entire mountain itself.

There couldn't possibly exist a human who would come out unhurt after getting hit by a hydrogen explosion of such a degree that caused the river levels to decrease. The scale of the blast was enough to pulverise a mountain.

"No way. Even if we assume that there is someone like that, they won't amount to a threat anyway. I agree that it's an interesting power, but it's at around the seventh digit in terms of rank."

According to Prithvi that is only a 7 Digit Gift. Now, for a 5 Digit Divine Spirit to be defeated you need to be at least Star Level.

"What I mean is that if you don't even have the strength to destroy stars, you won't even be able to defeat a Demon Lord."

"She once said that if the strike was not enough to destroy stars, then Gods can't be defeated."

And we all know that Kouryuu, Asuka and Yo could kill Azi Dahaka's first generation clones, which were Divine Spirits and Demon Lord level. We know Izayoi could pulverize Maxwell (a 4 Digit Demon Lord) though not kill him due to his absurd Regenerationn

"Nonsense. Not only the more we attacked the original, the more he multiplied the clones. Worse, the first generation are all Divine Spirit class. Just one of them alone is a Demon King that can create whole pantheons, how can we even do something absurd like facing and defeating them!?"

A 7 Digit is already at Mountain Level, saying a 4 Digit is at that level is absurd. Plus, we already knew 5 Digit Gods are at Star Level durability.

Regarding 3 Digits and the Strongest Species, we know the Huge Dragon was the materialization of an entire constellation, the Ophiuchus one (the stars were going back to heaven when the Gift Game was cleared) and we know that Divine Spirit Shiroyasha could destroy Perseus Constellation.

For 2 Digits and Star Spirits, we know Star Spirit Shiroyasha controls all the mass of the universe. In Last Embryo 5 it was stated Star Spirits on the level of Shiroyasha, Queen Halloween and Kurma could destroy dimensions and worlds.

Star Spirit --- One of the Three Strongest Species at the summit of the Little Garden. They are supreme beings whose a single finger can mangle entire dimensions and shatter whole worlds.

And for Azi Dahaka being Multi-Continent, thats a big joke considering the gods destroyed countless stars in the first Sun Authority War.

The Sun Sovereignty War is the largest war initiated by the highest level Divine Spirits, Star Spirits and Dragons to fight for their hegemony. It was told that the past Sun Sovereignty War resulted the destruction of countless stars, the formation of the capacity of material world and at last, the balance and the law upon the world. The scale of that war was already immeasurable back when the concept of "Gift Game" is yet to exist.

Well, enough quotes for today.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

This should be added in the Verses's Notes

Very nice job, ALRF

 

[Daniel_Collinson]

You know, at first i thought ALRF could help revive this verse correctly but nope, another case of downplaying the verse again, just like back in SB or in OBD wiki.

"Good ol' Mondaiji sure doesn't disappoint us when it comes to statements. Izayoi can shake stars or Izayoi can destroy stars and this is literally repeated for like all the freaking volumes. Then we have the famous statements that has the All of creation part. What is so weird is how this statements doesn't correlate to feats itself...or even other statements."

=> One, Izayoi can shake stars only desrcibed when he used his punches or kicks, aka his physical strength only, period. There is NOT any statement that he could destroy stars with his bare strength alone unless he used his Aurora Pillar. BIG DIFFERENCE. In volume 8 the old translator mistranslated from shaking the stars into destroy the stars, but Frozen already fixed that.

Volume 2, Izayoi can use his stars-destroying-power on Pest if he wanted to but Kuro Usagi stopped him:

".........Yeah, after all you are only human. Even if the Death Wind is ineffective, there is no need for any caution."

"What?"

"What I mean is that if you don't even have the strength to destroy stars, you won't even be able to defeat a Demon Lord."

Pest casually waved her arms. The eighty million voices of resentment attacked Izayoi using shockwaves. The unexpected attack sent Izayoi flying upwards before falling down.

Although he spat out some blood, the injury was not all that serious.

Izayoi minded what Pest had said previously.

".......You actually dare to say that I don't have the strength to destroy stars? Heh! This provocation is a bit daring, you spotted loli! Since you dare to say that then I will........!"

"Please...........Please wait a moment Izayoi-san! Considering the fact that you fight with that bruised right hand, this is the time to respect the original battle plan!"

Volume 8, Izayoi's power can destroy stars but this came from his AP, NOT his fist:

The crushed right hand, put up an aurora.

Showing something to crush the dragon, the gift that can split the dead world.

With an aurora appearing on his right hand that could eliminate the stars in the night sky, turned into a huge pillar that reached up the sky.

Able to penetrate the sky in Little Garden, in front of the gift where the omniscient demon could only call it as a [Code Unknown], the eyes of the three-headed dragon started to shake because of the shock.

"When we go by feats, we see stuff like Izayoi pulling a large tsunami with all his strength, with said tsunami being capable of engulfing a large city. Or Izayoi beating the hell out of His Highness, all with many statements of "destroying mountains and rivers". Or their clash destroying sectors of Kouen City. Or their clash of Another Cosmology would have completely blown out Kouen City...when previously in volume 3, Baron La Croix stated that his Dimension could only be destroyed by attack that has power capable of shattering stars themselves.

=> By that logic, should i throw Reinhard into City level+ instead of outervese because his near-best-attack was stated to be able to destroy a city? Or Tenma Yato only planetary level because entire fight with Habaki he only turned whole planet into hell with meteors he summoned? Or even the blades on Yato's back stated that they could destroy whole universe with a single swing yet Ezo still intact when Habaki's sword and Yato's blades clashed? Or how the Yatsukahagi despite the narrator stated that they can destroy all creation (Like Morei with her Flame Hell, Ootake with his Death Hell and Akuro with his Corrosion Hell) never leave the Suwahara city at all? This is beyond ridiculous and i think Shinza verse should be more inconsistent than Mondaiji verse itself, don't you think?

""Then there's Izayoi famous attack punch against Azi Dahaka, who had continental density. Said density was so hard that even Izayoi screwed his arm up, additionally said attack of Izayoi was said comparable to the "planetary crustal movement"...so yeah, you can see the huge inconsistency of this verse""

=> Oh really, not this continent shit again. Just because Azi Dahaka's weight is continent level it doesn't mean his durability is continent level. Not to mention Izayoi is already got weakened at that time due to heavilly injured from His Highness and Azi's claws pierced his abdomens, his attack have no tactic at all, just randomly punch wherever he want. IIRC, the "continent" here refered to his Spiritual Power's nature, not just some pure weight. This could related with myths of Azi but i will not talk about it.

"Another way this verse gets more frustrating is its settings. There are beings called 3 Digits beings or Almighty Domain. These beings have genuine omnipotence and omniscience, being limited by only Omnipotence Paradox

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Yet said "Omnipotent and Omniscient beings" have limitations (such as the inability to manipulate Akashic Records)..."

The 3-Digits beings in Mondaiji are living Brahman, they responsible for create whole verse, managing all laws and creation as well. However due to Omnipotent Paradox, End Emptiness sealed most of their power and Chicken Paradox that their powers in LG have been nerfed for 50% (Confirmed from LE 6)

That "Omnipotent and Omniscient" is just a name, volume 12 did clarify that they are not Omnipotent at all, however it doesn't mean we can ignore their feats.

If i remember, Reinhard and Mercurius also have been stated to have Omnipotent power, aren't they?

"Clashes of "Another Cosmology" which is stated to literally destroy cosmology of opposing enemy, yet in terms of showings, it is on city level. In fact, during clash of Cosmology between Izayoi and Azi Dahaka, they only turned an entire volcano to subatomic particles"

=> Hello? Reinhard's city level? Yato's planet level? Attack Potency doko?

"Mondaiji as a whole suffers from this whole statements over feats. Many of them don't conform to the various showings a lot of characters have shown. And in addition, settings of the verse can make Mondaiji very easily wanked."

=> Should i put verses like Shinza, Demonbane, I/O, Ichiban Maou, WTC are the same because they also got bunch of statements over that so-called-feats of yours again?

 

[Daniel_Collinson]

If you mean cosmology? Probably
But someone being Multiversal? No, no one is

=> Right, no one is

The poets can corrode universes just by their poems alone:

"The poems woven by the Poets instantly propagated and eroded to even outer universes (different worlds). In the world, there were even many types of fanatical records of the primordial age that was handed down from generations where Vampires are a man-eating race, monsters who devoured even human corpses."

Effect from the Poets's songs:

""All were the truth" are the songs they sang. They who converge and change the different worlds which expand to infinity without even the fact they altered history exist since the first place, are the fourth Strongest Species."

What is an Another Cosmology that the Gods possessed them:

"""Another Cosmology" is the secret of pantheons. Or should I say that these worlds - universes themselves built the pantheons. The Norse pantheon's Asgard, the Buddhism's Three Thousand Worlds, and the Zoroastrianism's dualism of good and evil, they are no exception. To us, the "Ouroboros" "Another Cosmology" is also our final trump card.""

Definition of a pantheon and what will happen if a pantheon r.i.p:

"Pantheon — The popular name of powerful Communities who attempt to coexist with the deployment of mankind from the World of Little Garden. As supporters of mankind's deployment on all eras, it won't be strange to view them as the history of mankind itself.

And, destroying a pantheon is the same as destroying the history of mankind itself.

In the World of Little Garden, a world of mutual observer, the destruction of a pantheon is also the destruction of a race, nations and existing concepts."

Prime Shiroyasha is the monarch of all cosmologies govern by Geocentrism:

""In the past, she stood at the center of Cosmologies of countless pantheons as the Solar God who governs "Geocentric Model". To protect her Spiritual Essence, she once suppressed even the all expression of opinions. However, the history of humanity progresses, by the hands of the brave sailors and wise astrologists, the size of her Spiritual Essence decreased and before long, she was oppressed to Horizon of the White Night. Now, what left of her power is a Spiritual Essence on the same level of an ordinary Sun God.

ÒÇî…………ÒÇì

————But. At most, it is only a story of the observable range from the history of mankind.

The Spiritual Essence of "Geocentric Model", exists on a place that cannot be reached even at the cost of all the time for the history of mankind to continue. A thing that can only be proven by reaching the end of the stars, the end of time and the end of the universe. Once she expands the scale of the Game hosted by her to that extent, the Spiritual Essence of Shiroyasha can enlarge infinitely and bring the participants into a paradox game. Speaking of which, if she can trap that person inside the Horizon of White Night where the exit does not exist, as the Host of the game, she will also be sealed along with that person for all eternity."

A current-nerfed Shiroyasha still give middle fingers to all Gods alike:

""The strongest Solar God who possesses half of the Twenty Four Sun Authorities.

If she wields that divine power, she will become a threatening being comparable to the Last Embryo.

All existing laws were distorted, the balance of day and night was broken, even the boundary of Heaven and Earth was shattered.

ÒÇîI joined Buddhism is because I believed in your justice. And by following that, I protected the peace of Little Garden. —— It's not a talk how you must protect everything. But, I have no duty to abandon the lower layers just because of your convenient reason!!! Alright then, whether there are millions of you or a thousand trillions of you, then brought all to here!!! Right now, I, the White Night will become the Curtain of the Polar Night, and engulf the light of stars and the entire world without leaving a trace left……!!!ÒÇì

Her originally beautiful silver hair began to release the color that is resemble to the curtain of the night.

Polar Night —— Refers to the movement of the Sun that is in the opposite position with the White Night, and the meaning of the phenomenon of "the sun does not rise". As the Star Spirit who controls the movement of the Sun, controlling the curtain of the night is very easy for her. As numerous Chief Gods of powerful pantheons are Solar Gods, that made those who can be her opponent within the number of her fingers. She, who is a Solar God while can control the curtain of the night, is excel at killing Solar Gods.

Although she is not as powerful as when she reigned all Cosmologies as "Geocentrism" on the dawn of creation, but her Divinity is still incalculable even now.

Divine Aura for Gods, King Aura for Demon Kings. She, who was born from these two things, is the Strongest Individual Star Spirit ┬À The 10th Rank of Little Garden.

"Demon King of the White Night" is unleashing all of her power.

"Back off, the Great Sage Equals to Heaven. You aren't even my opponent...... No, that goes the same to other gods. As long as they are Divine Spirits, none is capable of killing me, a Last Embryo. I shall seal myself and the "Absolute Evil" to the Horizon of White Night for all eternity. This Little Garden, in exchange, will become my coffin.""

Azi's Avesta said "Fk You" to Brahman (Ultimate Reality):

"(How foolish! Even now you try to use the authority of Universal TruthBrahman! Did they not understand Avesta's ability!?)

The Indian Gods - The Sun Trinity Mystical God held the the spear of absolute hit and absolute victory. That was the authority of "Destined Victory" the Gods reached after manipulating the truth of the Universe, a type of 'Another Cosmology'.

Once that was used, regardless of target, Avesta would automatically oppose and neutralize it.

The after-wave from doing so would cause the two Celestial Dragons to lose their lives. The collapsed London City would be completely obliterated. In the final moment of the finale they were relying on that stuff? The Three Headed Dragon raged."

Power of 2-Digit and End Emptiness:

""Ultimately speaking, people in Three Digits had equal spirit level. ÒÇîQueenÒÇì was the only rule breaker. The Two Digits above this ― reaching ÒÇîFull Authority TerritoryÒÇì ― can't even enter the battle stage."

"...Can't even enter?"

"Ah ah. Shiroyoruō[1] is a classic example. If she could not control the total mass of the origin of universe, she could not reach geocentrism. That person reached ÒÇîFull Authority TerritoryÒÇì with just two authorities."

ÒÇîFull Authority TerritoryÒÇì — Not a metaphor, that was peak of territory that could only be reached when one received all authorities within one's body. Likewise, ÒÇîOmnipotent TerritoryÒÇì referred to the territory that received all abilities, but it did not mean omnipotent literally. In outside world, they might be almighty, but because of various paradoxes starting from ÒÇîAlmighty ParadoxÒÇì, they cannot freely use their omnipotence. Hence in a battle they must grant a portion of the omnipotence as Gift to others, let them fight on their behalf.

"According to this interpretation, One Digit can be said to be an incomplete spirit status with partial abilities. ÒÇîEnd EmptinessÒÇì is the best example. It is a spirit body that granted ÒÇîAuthority to end all worlds (tales)ÒÇì to all Omnipotent and Full Authority beings.""

A random fictional story from LG can become a reality of whole multiverse:

""Arthurian Legend――― A legend told by the Poets on the Little Garden of the gods from the far past, and for some reason, was imprinted on the latter half of the 5th Century of the Britain Island, known as the "Void Epoch of History".

Its state, which is extremely difficult for the method of mankind and the vision of the gods to observe and being a historical territory where pasts of countless diversities can occur simultaneously, are because Britain Island from the 5th Century to the 6th Century lacked accurate historical documents.

The story of Arthurian Legend was the attempt see whether they can guide humanity to a more proper direction by utilizing the countless diversities existed in the "Void Epoch of History".

The Unification of the Britain Island, the Knights of Round Table and the war against giants, fiends and cannibals.

The numerous stories and heroic sagas later turned into legends that attracted countless humans.

………Yet, the attempt of [to guide humanity to a more proper direction] the gods wished for, didn't succeed.

Hence, the Arthurian Legend was endowed with numerous Gifts comparable to miracles from the gods and despite being repeated for untold of times on countless timelines……… There was once never an outcome where the gods succeed what they wished for.

The Arthurian Legend will always be ruined when someone of the Knights of the Round Table who are vassals of the king betrayed him."

Guess what, the Gods of Mondaiji verse can change everything if they want by forming their opinions:

""The Arthurian Legend generally ends with the betrayal of the knight named Mordred.

That is a rule when narrating the Arthurian Legend in Outer Worlds and a "convergence point of history" as spoken from the observation of the gods.

Although Little Garden ― the Third Point Observation Universe is where worlds of countless diversities were observed, only this convergence point refuses the notion of diversity.

Though changing the fluctuation between the beginning and the end is trivial for historical observation, but changing both of the beginning and the end would alter the very entire history itself.

A reform large enough to alter the foundation of history, that is, the replacement of the opinion of a god, is a major reform that would require either the approval of majority of beings dwell on the realm of 2-Digit or an exceptional miracle created by the once God King. And, both of them aren't any easy task.

In any case, even if the Arthurian Legend was able to prove its usefulness, in this state where ruination is inevitable, they can only ignore it as one of the myriad pasts of "Void Epoch of History". In a word, the Arthurian Legend is currently drifting between the truth and fiction.

The God King shook his head lightly,

"At least, that is what my source of information told me. All of this was possible because that is a "Void Epoch of History" possesses countless possibilities…… Isn't that so, Aira?"

"Usu. Because the fact the Void Epoch observed from Little Garden isn't a single-dimensional entity, but a multidimensional entity. Going by the existing conclusion, all members of the Round Table ――― No, there are two people as exceptions. But, fundamentally, except King Arthur's brother-in-law and Sir Dagonet, I've heard all of them have a reason to betray King Arthur.""

These are not the end, there are even more high-end feats than just this.

ALRF, I would love to have a fair discussion with you outside this wiki because all i see is no one here can gauge the verse correcly.

 

[ALRF]

Three big posts. That's a lot.

@Sieg

Yeah i know of Shiroyasha being stated to have complete control over mass of the universe. But again...no feats on what can she do with said control. I see her as Universal with hax, that no one scales to normally

And you see? Stated. Show me feats or no dice.

@Daniel

Volume 2 & 8: again what we need is feats not baseless statements that's not even consistent with feats. Mind you, Izayoi had to amp his stats up to stop Hercules' continent blows

It's nice to bring Shinza when at least it has feats and context to back it up. Yeah that city level statement Reinhard...same statement which had them also being universal. Let's ignore how Mercurius extended changed Throne system from encompassing singular universe to multiple ones with multi-dimensions. Or how in their fight, Mercurius was throwing cosmic shit like no tomorrow. Or PL world having higher dimensions and how Belial can destroy even the universe. Or how Soujirou was cutting universes apart.

And for Ootake and Akuro, Masada already said Legion God's can control range of their spill. That's why Numahime using her Taikyoku only encompassed the Sea. And considering you get a lot of multiversal shit and all of creation later on. Yeah it's quite consistent

As for your other stuff, Avesta will naturally offset Brahman due to how the ability work

Reminder guys that evolved Azi has just gained "arms enough to shatter the stars".

He torn off the seal that carried the mass of a star with brute force. Leticia raised an unrecognizable cry and dissipated, collapsing on the ground in her human form. The spear with Sixth Cosmic Velocity pressed close. Azi Dahaka used his experience from the previous battle as foundation, channeling into Astral form by himself.—— Who could believe it? In that instant of a moment, the Three Headed Dragon completed two evolutions. Arm strength to shatter the stars, and a movement method that surpassed starlight.

As for the so called Brahman Spear which also had the entire Zoroastrianism's cosmology inside it but

The Indian Gods - The Sun Trinity Mystical God held the the spear of absolute hit and absolute victory. That was the authority of "Destined Victory" the Gods reached after manipulating the truth of the Universe, a type of 'Another Cosmology'. Once that was used, regardless of target, Avesta would automatically oppose and neutralize it. The after-wave from doing so would cause the two Celestial Dragons to lose their lives. The collapsed London City would be completely obliterated.

Destruction from clash between Avesta and Spear would only destroy London

In volume 12 in Izayoi's nightmare. The spear also had the following statement

The gift capable of destroying a star, or possibly the whole Milky Way was bringing death upon Izayoi.

So much for having an entire cosmology and Brahman

 

[ALRF]

As for poets. Their case don't help. They can do it because of their nature. Shouldn't really scale to any higher digit being unless you want to tell me Azi singing can alter worlds.

As for other series, going by statements actually, i can bring Demonbane characters all to 1-A for all keys. Attribute that to magick all encompassing nature including even concepts like duality and stuff like that

Going to be busy now so not replying till later~

 

[Daniel_Collinson]

"It's nice to bring Shinza when at least it has feats and context to back it up. Yeah that city level statement Reinhard...same statement which had them also being universal. Let's ignore how Mercurius extended changed Throne system from encompassing singular universe to multiple ones with multi-dimensions. Or how in their fight, Mercurius was throwing cosmic shit like no tomorrow. Or PL world having higher dimensions and how Belial can destroy even the universe. Or how Soujirou was cutting universes apart."

=> Right, and Satanel died by a Supernova, Mercurius just condensed stars into a supernova and it already gave Atziluth Ren troble. But then again, narrator stated Ren could freeze the time of whole universe. This doesnt sound right, based on this i should downplay the whole Shinza into planetary - stellar level instead of Multiversal or Outerversal shit like you said.

There are many quotes from Shinza that are just pure statements, not feats like what you said, such as:

Ootake's attack can destroy mountain ranges and small countries, but.........whole Ezo still intact:

"Õ▒▒ÞäêÒüÖÒéëµ╗àÒüÖÒéïþÑ×Òü«µÄâÕ░äÔöÇÔöÇÒüôÒü«þ¿ïÕ║ªÒÇüÚÿ▓ÒüÆÒü¼Òü¬ÒéëÒü░þö¿Òü»Òü¬ÒüäÒÇé

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Yato's blades can shatter stars:

"ÞâîÒü½þ┐╝Òü«ÒüöÒü¿ÒüÅÕ▒òÚûïÒüùÒüƒÕêâÒü»Úâ¢ÕÉêÕཱུ×ÜÒÇéÕ¢╝Òü«Þâîõ©êÒü╗Òü®ÒééÒüéÒéïÒüØÒü«õ©ÇÒüñõ©ÇÒüñÒüîÒÇüµÿƒÒüÖÒéëµû¼µû¡ÒüÖÒéïþÑ×µ░ùÒéƵ¿¬µ║óÒüòÒüøÒü¬ÒüîÒéëÒéåÒüúÒüÅÒéèÒü¿Õø×Þ╗óÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇé"

But then jump into this part, the blades suddenly became "destroy whole universe with a single swing", stated by Habaki, not by narrator:

"ÒüéÒü«õ©Çµî»ÒéèÒü»Õñ®Õ£░ÒéÆÕêåÒüïÒüíÒÇüÕ«çÕ«ÖÒéÆþá┤µû¡ÒüÖÒéïÕçªÕêæÕêÇÒü½õ╗ûÒü¬ÒéëÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé"

Judging from this, i could say Shinza verse is even more inconsistent than Mondaiji verse itself, yet they got a pass, and Mondaiji is not.

Mind if you explain why?

"As for your other stuff, Avesta will naturally offset Brahman due to how the ability work"

=> Should i say reason why Hajun defeated the three colors because his Law nullified all Laws of them due to "how ability worked" too?

Forgot what volume 8, volume 10 and volume 12 said about nature of Last Embryo?

"As for the so called Brahman Spear which also had the entire Zoroastrianism's cosmology inside it"

=> False, since when Brahman spear have entire Zoroatrianism cosmology inside it? Im questioned myself that do you even read the volume carefully or just skipping and then conclude with some low-end feats

Kuro Usagi used Brahmaastra REPLICA, and it contained Zoroastrianism cosmology (bestowed from Indra himself, ofc) so that Azi's Avesta cant do shit against it. She's not using real one, can you imagine what happen if they bring original spear against Azi?

""The Indian Gods - The Sun Trinity Mystical God held the the spear of absolute hit and absolute victory. That was the authority of "Destined Victory" the Gods reached after manipulating the truth of the Universe, a type of 'Another Cosmology'.

Once that was used, regardless of target, Avesta would automatically oppose and neutralize it.

The after-wave from doing so would cause the two Celestial Dragons to lose their lives. The collapsed London City would be completely obliterated. In the final moment of the finale they were relying on that stuff? The Three Headed Dragon raged"

"Destruction from clash between Avesta and Spear would only destroy London"

=> Like how Yato and Habaki's fight turned whole planet into hell despite narrator stated his blades can destroy whole universe with a single swing but his clash with Habaki doesnt affect Ezo at all, right

Or Sukuna's gun was only stated to be capable of bursting mountains and countries as well but still got "Outerverse" here

So much for your outerverse, isn't it?

Just reminder, the fight that happened in most of Mondaiji verse is take place in Little Garden, not just some random planet

Meanwhile, Shinza cast used multiversal attacks on each other but the whole earth doesnt get affected at all.

See how contradicted your words?

Also the spear that narrator refered here is the original one, not the replica that Kuro Usagi used

"As for poets. Their case don't help. They can do it because of their nature. Shouldn't really scale to any higher digit being unless you want to tell me Azi singing can alter worlds."

Should i also call Hadou Gods can affect multiverse because of their nature, not their feats too?

The Poets are literally stated that they are only 4th Strongest Species, weaker than Gods, Star Spirits and Pure-bloooded dragons alike

But so what? Still have bunch multiversal feats as usual

Oh i remember, Canaria is also a high-rank Poet, she led entire army to fight Azi. What happened next then?

Let's not to mention how 3-Digits created all things for the verse, even a random 3-Digit can change the verse as will with their opinion, but apparently you ignored that and used the low-ends one to justify as inconsistent, correct?

Like i said earlier, i would like to have a fair disucssion with you outside this wiki, since the whole thread will not get any further if it just keep going like this

 

[ALRF]

I don't really see the point of talking outside the wiki. We can still discuss it here

My bad, meant to say The spear contained the entire cosmology (which i gave the quote qnyway). Twas a slip of the tongue...should be finger actually ovo

Sukuna gun being mountain level was Sukuna not using his Taikyoku at all. Like how Morei not using her Taikyoku busted a country. Also Tenmas can again control range of their Law which is why like i said don't go "hur dur multiverse went boom" and last thing they want is ruin of what's left of Tasogare. So even if you press the issue of collateral damage, they would not go far in AoE destruction due to plot reasons

Hadou Gods =/= Poets. We've seeing them doing multiversal stuff and we know scaling as per as Shinza rules of Taikyoku. As for Canaria or Poets, i don't remember them having any combat applicable feats through their history manipulation.

Mercurius also paradoxed universes. And about Satanael. He gave up the Throne when Mercurius appeared due to Nerose perfectionism. The moment NEET appeared was the moment Nerose went KMS. Bit sure, not like that supernova wasn't special considering it is backed up by Taikyoku. Or Mervurius Black Hole capable of destroying all of creation. A statement backed up by him and Reinhard destroying Throne itself. Or Mercurius Kamunagara coiling around entire creation

Soujirou and Shiori for example. They are walking singularities. Outside of reality itself and they can't affect it unless they desire so. Heck thei "love session" was them focusing on each other respective creation. Also they made a hole in the multiverse. Then they have feats of destroying Tenmas universe (Soujirou destroying Kamunagara of Akuro)

Created all things for the verse yet their showings doesn't even go so far. Everyone was getting scared of Azi ( a 3 digit being who's showingsdon't got past multi-continent/moon level) and went to get at least half of sun authority to create new Little Garden from Shiroyasha. And Shiroyasha a two digits who's best stuff is swallowing all stars at genesis

Yes i am using low ends because high ends don't make sense to me when there's not a lot to go for multiversal mondaiji characters.

Also i am not going by AoE fallacy but by lack of feats of these so called multiversals character but have nothing to back up the claims

 

[ALRF]

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Ah yes that attack which would have destroyed Ezo hasn't it being for Yakou Madara blocking it

See? Context always help

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[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with ALRF.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Mondaji getting nerfed.

>Welcome to the club

 

[Daniel_Collinson]

"I don't really see the point of talking outside the wiki. We can still discuss it here"

=> I got some stuffs in Real Life so i cant stick with discussing on wiki for long, so i would like to discuss you somewhere outside, like in Discord or something like that.

"As for Canaria or Poets, i don't remember them having any combat applicable feats through their history manipulation."

=> There's another feat of her in Leticia short story (Cant give right now since my laptap is lag af), and more feats as Poet's nature explained in volume 8. They are not simply history manipulation, sure, Poets are not combatants like Divine Spirits beings or Star Spirit beings, but they still can change reality as well and converge infinite outer worlds.

"Mercurius also paradoxed universes. And about Satanael. He gave up the Throne when Mercurius appeared due to Nerose perfectionism. The moment NEET appeared was the moment Nerose went KMS. Bit sure, not like that supernova wasn't special considering it is backed up by Taikyoku. Or Mervurius Black Hole capable of destroying all of creation. A statement backed up by him and Reinhard destroying Throne itself. Or Mercurius Kamunagara coiling around entire creation"

=> Not gonna deny this part. But then again, Mercurius's Sequere Naturam was stated to be a supernova and he just only condensed all stars into one supernova, this attack killed entire PL era along with Satanel as well. Or how Reinhard's near best strength attack was just stated to be....City level. Or (again) Yato and Habaki's fight only blow up whole surface of the planet as best. I could easilly call those multiversal feats of Hadou Gods are hyperboles because of the low-end feats forward.

"Created all things for the verse yet their showings doesn't even go so far. Everyone was getting scared of Azi ( a 3 digit being who's showingsdon't got past multi-continent/moon level) and went to get at least half of sun authority to create new Little Garden from Shiroyasha. And Shiroyasha a two digits who's best stuff is swallowing all stars at genesis"

=> No you misuderstood. In Volume 7, Azi called himself "a 3-Digit of Little Garden that got graned evil flag by his pantheon lord", this might be confusing, but the 3-Digit that he refered here is just his original status and level, NOT his current power level, just say that it's his nickname. See what Alma explained in volume 8? Back then Azi Dahaka is not that strong, he only comparable to 12 Devas and even weaker than Vritra, but then one day all Ancient Demon Kings under Azi got powered up that even one can kick the ass millions of pantheons (Cant remember number exactly but it's around or more than that). Also in volume 12 Indra confirmed that countless of pantheons back then got wiped out by the LE or Ancient Demon Kings themselves.

I did said earlier, all 3-Digit Gods are heavilly nerfed in their own verse, they can only use 50% of their power at best, but so? The LE dont give an F even if they use their full strength.

Urgh no? Where did you read Shiroyasha's best stuff is swallowing all stars at genesis? That stars swallowing is from a current-nerfed-Shiroyasha. Not to mention Shiroyasha in her prime govern all cosmologies/multiverses as Geoncentrism. Even not as powerful as before she still view 3-Digits beings like trash. Plus the stars in Little Garden are not even normal stars either. These are the stars that related with pantheons, celestial spirits, demi-celestial spirits and stuffs.

Did i tell you that a random 3-Digit can change whole verse just with their opinions alone? Or how a fictional story of LG can become a reality of whole multiverse?

Sorry if i use some heavy words. But yeah, reason why i want to have a fair discussion outside from this wiki is there are something that i want to settle in peaceful way. Probably it could help solve this confused state about Mondaiji verse. Wiki sometimes quite slow so i want to discuss outside as fast as possible.

Mind if i accept your help?

 

[Siegfried10]

According to your logic Goku and the Hakaishins are only Planet to Star Level then?. Because no one in Dragon Ball actually destroyed a Universe (or even a Solar System)... but we dont do that here, statements have ALWAYS been valid. There are some shit like the All Creation thing that is pure hyperbole, but not all statements are invalid. We should downgrade pretty much all the wikia if we stop using statements.

Gods destroying multiple stars in the first SAW is a fact, Gods creating their Outer Universes (when they were at full power though) the Huge Dragon being made from a Constellation is a fact, the Universe being created as a consequence of Shiroyasha's defeat against Alpha and Omega is a fact (and is pretty much stated that she was the origin of it), Shiroyasha desyroying Perseus Constellation is also a fact.

There are feats for the 3 digits and up that are way beyond Star Level, so Pest statement doesnt seem like hyperbole or outlier.

If all your argument will be "there are no feats", then:

1- Thats a lie

2- Go to other series and tell them statements are no valid too.

Anyway, i dont actually consider Mondaiji to be Multiverse level. If you are willing to have a proper discussion and not just negate all statements, then im willing to discuss what can be valid and what not. If you arent then i stop here, just remember there are actual feats that are way beyond Multi Continent level in Mondaiji lol.