MLP Upgrade (Part 2)

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hello everyone. This may seem barebones, but that's mostly because all the legwork was already done in another thread. On the following thread, An 2-A Upgrade was accepted for the Cosmology: https://vsbattles.com/threads/mlp-cosmology-revision.151041/

As shown in this thread, the Dreamscape and the MLP Universe are one in the same, as affecting one is no different than affecting the other. So the Dreamscape = The MLP Universes respectively, means that Each of the Universes = The Dreamscape and has their own Dreamscape, which contains 2-A Realities.

Thusly, every single Tier 3 & Tier 2 in MLP should be upgraded to 2-A. There is a higher tier but that can wait for it's own thread. This is just a thread to apply the tiers tot hose it scales to.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This is fine given the cosmology upgrade was already accepted.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Thank you for the feedback Maverick. This is more or less just formal at this point in the same way the DBS Upgrade Thread was lol.

 

[BlastX]

I agree

 

[Phoenks]

2-A MLP is real.

And later, Low 1-C MLP will be real.

I agree.

 

[Lightbuster30]

And later, Low 1-C MLP will be real.

It gets way higher than that hypothetically speaking

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Seems legit, I totally agree.

 

[BlastX]

Please make a blog about this before 48 hrs go through, let's not do the mistakes of the DB Fanbase

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Please make a blog about this before 48 hrs go through, let's not do the mistakes of the DB Fanbase

please, jesus christ

Anyways, I obviously accept.

 

[Phoenks]

It gets way higher than that hypothetically speaking

elaborate?

 

[Firestorm808]

Can you elaborate on the scaling chain being proposed for 2-A?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Can you elaborate on the scaling chain being proposed for 2-A?

The scaling chain would likely start with Princess Luna creating a massive shared dream for hundreds to thousands of people in S5 E13. I think we can upscale this because Luna specifically states making a dream that big would take a lot of her power to pull off due to it's size.

One can also make an argument that she was weakened when this happened, as the Tantabus was feeding on her mental state. Luna self-tormenting herself, then endangering Equestria when the Tantabus began invading other dreams would force stress on Luna. Stress is important because it influences magic, and depending on how stressed you are, it can reduce your magic to the point of only generating a flicker.

Tl;dr, Luna was stressed and mentally exhausted, which would weaken her magic, allowing.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

What Light said. Essentially combining the Dreamscapes of hundreds - thousands of individuals, including their Futures and Infinite Corridors, which means the actual baseline for the scaling is 100-1000x 2-A.

 

[Lightbuster30]

What Light said. Essentially combining the Dreamscapes of hundreds - thousands of individuals, including their Futures and Infinite Corridors, which means the actual baseline for the scaling is 100-1000x 2-A.

I just want to add, that while I'm aware the only way you can go higher into 2-A is via scaling, I wanted to see if different rules could apply because in this specific instance, it's noted to be taxing on Luna's power. Meaning we know for a fact that it takes increased power to influence multiple 2-A places. The more dreams she tries influencing at once, the more power she needs.

 

[Phoenks]

I just want to add, that while I'm aware the only way you can go higher into 2-A is via scaling, I wanted to see if different rules could apply because in this specific instance, it's noted to be taxing on Luna's power. Meaning we know for a fact that it takes increased power to influence multiple 2-A places. The more dreams she tries influencing at once, the more power she needs.

You can actually scale certain structures higher into 2-A with statements/feats that prove that affecting a greater 2-A structure explicitly requires more power.

So, this could actually work.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Oh ! That's... Very useful...

Evil Laugh Intensifies

 

[Lightbuster30]

Ain't no way I'm letting my ponies be sitting ducks at baseline, had to see if that form of scaling was legit

 

[Phoenks]

Though, I think that would require quite a bit of staff input since the topic of "Above baseline 2-A" is quite cloudy and confusing a lot of the time.

But, I am pretty sure verses like DnD have become above baseline 2-A via having specific mechanics and stuff that prove some larger 2-A structures require more power to affect, and that people that can affect those larger 2-A things are much more powerful than lesser 2-A people.

I think this thread goes over DnD's specific case.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Thank you for the information Phoenks

 

[Phoenks]

Well, disregarding that for a moment.

Can you put in the OP who exactly scales to the 2-A rating and explain why they scale to it? I imagine that would make this thread a lot easier to evaluate.

It would also be good if you could summarize the cosmology in a few sentences with links to relevant scans, and also put that in the OP. So that people know what your referencing in the explanations for scaling.

 

[Firestorm808]

The scaling chain would likely start with Princess Luna creating a massive shared dream for hundreds to thousands of people in S5 E13. I think we can upscale this because Luna specifically states making a dream that big would take a lot of her power to pull off due to it's size.

One can also make an argument that she was weakened when this happened, as the Tantabus was feeding on her mental state. Luna self-tormenting herself, then endangering Equestria when the Tantabus began invading other dreams would force stress on Luna. Stress is important because it influences magic, and depending on how stressed you are, it can reduce your magic to the point of only generating a flicker.

Tl;dr, Luna was stressed and mentally exhausted, which would weaken her magic, allowing.

Sorry. Can you clarify the connection to 2-A in this scenario? I don't Follow.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Sorry. Can you clarify the connection to 2-A in this scenario? I don't Follow.

Luna affects thousands of dreams by merging them into one shared dream. Thus, the 2-A scaling could start with her as dreams contain the infinite hallway of doors, and she's significantly affecting them. Everything else is just me explaining why it could be upscaled above baseline.

 

[Firestorm808]

Luna affects thousands of dreams by merging them into one shared dream. Thus, the 2-A scaling could start with her as dreams contain the infinite hallway of doors, and she's significantly affecting them. Everything else is just me explaining why it could be upscaled above baseline.

To my understanding from the last thread, the Dreamscape realm is where the dreams of everyone reside.

Each dreamer has their own Hallway of Choice in the Dreamscape.

In the Episode "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?", we have the following line.

Twilight Sparkle: Hmm... What if everypony in Ponyville were having one dream?

Princess Luna: I... can create shared dreams, yes, but for so many ponies at once? I have never done anything like that. The amount of power it would take...

While I can understand the present/current dreams being combined into one, nothing suggests that the Infinite dream worlds for each pony of the dreamscape in Ponyville are being applied here.

 

[Lightbuster30]

While I can understand the present/current dreams being combined into one, nothing suggests that the Infinite dream worlds for each pony of the dreamscape in Ponyville are being applied here.

The Hallways are part of the dream by default. They are one location inside a person's dream. If each dreamer has their own infinite hallway, why would fusing the dreams not fuse the hallway?

 

[Firestorm808]

The Hallways are part of the dream by default. They are one location inside a person's dream. If each dreamer has their own infinite hallway, why would fusing the dreams not fuse the hallway?

To clarify, does the infinite hallway for choice only exist in the Dreamscape when someone dreams? That the dreamer actively re-creates the hallway every night with a single dream? A nightly dream being by default a 2-A structure?

 

[Lightbuster30]

To clarify, does the infinite hallway for choice only exist in the Dreamscape when someone dreams? That the dreamer actively re-creates the hallway every night with a single dream? A nightly dream being by default a 2-A structure?

Of course, they are. As I mentioned in the previous thread: Luna says the Hallway is always there when Discord starts questioning where they are inside his dream.

Discord" "Where are we now?"
Luna "A hallway. There's always a hallway"

 

[Firestorm808]

Of course, they are. As I mentioned in the previous thread: Luna says the Hallway is always there when Discord starts questioning where they are inside his dream.

Discord" "There's a hallway"
Luna "There's always a hallway"

Let's start from the beginning. I understand that dreamers have a hallway.

In the show, Luna says that she can create shared dreams.

I'm asking what suggests that this shared dream in the show demonstrates she actively fuses infinite dream worlds from everyone into one instead of just connecting all present dreamers to the same dream.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'm asking what suggests that this shared dream in the show demonstrates she actively fuses infinite dream worlds from everyone into one instead of just connecting all present dreamers to the same dream.

This part is confusing me. She's not doing that, but that isn't my reasoning for scaling to 2-A. The reasoning is each dream is 2-A via containing a structure of that size, therefore, affecting a Dream is 2-A. If a single dream contains a 2-A structure, then why would she need to affect an infinite number of dreams? I think I'm misunderstanding something.

The only thing merging dreams has to do with anything is proving she can affect someone's dream in a significant way (Merging it with someone elses to form a shared dream).

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

This really doesn't need the dream merging to be 2-A. Dreams by default contain 2-A Structures. And as mentioned in the OP, the Dreamscape and the MLP Universe as revealed in the previous thread are one in the same, as affecting them affects the Past, Present, and Future of the other, and vice versa. So their previous feats of significantly affecting the MLP Universes separately which was treated as 2-C would be 2-A. I didn't mention a scaling chain as this is pretty simple on paper as the high ends would become 2-A, and those that scales to 2-C outright would become 2-A outright.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Bump

 

[Lightbuster30]

Been thinking it over, and I think I see the problem. I think what's being said is there's nothing suggesting Luna's dream merging includes the infinite hallway. And if that's the problem, then I say it not being included makes no sense.

Yeah, fine, the show doesn't spell whether or not she's including the futures out on a silver platter, but it shouldn't need to. Just the fact the hallway is part of the dream reality being formed should suggest that yes, it is being included. The show doesn't need to say it outright. We can reasonably assume this simply because it's just one part of the dream It's one location. One area. It's a smaller part of a bigger whole. Why would it not be included in a merging between dream universes?

It's a reasonable, assumption based on how we know dream worlds operate. We know dreams are a blend of the past, present, and future. We know the hallway is just a smaller part of the entire dream. If a character moves a galaxy, you wouldn't ask "Is there proof the stars were moved along with it"? Not the best example, but still, it's just common sense to assume objects within a larger object get affected along with it.

To assume she didn't brings even worse assumptions to the table than assuming she did. it flies in the face of how dreams operate and gives them properties they don't have.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. I agree with Light. The very fact the comics spell out that the futures are common occurrences amongst the dreams, directly implicate that merging them would include merging the realms. It'd be like stating that a merging two realities doesn't include the fact it contains planets despite both realities already being heavily implicated that they contain such previously.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm just trying to understand the general procedure that's happening. What is created where and when?

Since the Pre-Season 10 comics are secondary canon, we want assurance that there is a basis for the scaling in the show.

After re-watching the episode, this is what I observed.

1. Luna decided to create a shared dream.
2. Luna creates strings of magic to connect everyone to her dream.
3. Presumably, instead of forming directly in the dreamscape, the town's dream selves are formed within Luna's Dream.
4. Luna is strained to hold the shared dream together.

Are the above steps from the show accurate?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I'll double confirm it by watching the show, but it seems you got it from my remembrance of that episode. But also again, even ignoring this, since the Dreamscape and the Realities are one in the same, feats such as Midnight Sparkle nearly destroying the MLP Universe, and The Elements of Harmony stopping a Multiversal Collapse, would also get upgraded as a result because said Universes have their own Dreamscapes.

 

[Lightbuster30]

After re-watching the episode, this is what I observed.

1. Luna decided to create a shared dream.
2. Luna creates strings of magic to connect everyone to her dream.
3. Presumably, instead of forming directly in the dreamscape, the town's dream selves are formed within Luna's Dream.
4. Luna is strained to hold the shared dream together.

Are the above steps from the show accurate?

I'm not sure how step 3 would affect things, but other than that, it should be.

 

[Firestorm808]

Midnight Sparkle nearly destroying the MLP Universe, and The Elements of Harmony stopping a Multiversal Collapse, would also get upgraded as a result because said Universes have their own Dreamscapes.

We'll talk about this scaling later, but I have questions regarding the connection between the physical world and the dreamscape in this context.

Was the multiversal collapse thing in the comics?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Was the multiversal collapse thing in the comics?

Yes. Though "multiversal" was limited to 2 parallel universes about to collide with each other. Equestria Girls has a similar thing when Midnight was blasting open interdimensional rifts.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not sure how step 3 would affect things, but other than that, it should be.

Since it's already nighttime with everyone else sleeping, it would be safe to say that their dream structures are already formed inside the main dreamscape prior to Luna's actions.

I'm questioning whether (everyone plus their dream structures) or (just their dream selves) are dragged into Luna's dream.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

This is my take on it. Singular dreams are already confirmed to be 2A structures, and Luna herself states she is already capable of creating shared dreams.

However, the shared dream with every resident of Ponyville takes great strain on her and her magical ability (though she does manage to use magic to attack and slightly harm the Tantabus), which does tie it into her UES. Finally, she outright states that it's taking all of he strength to "hold such a massive dream together," implying it is larger in size than the average 2A dream.

With her own words taken into context, I would argue that she definitely made a massive merged dream out of everyone's 2A dream strictures and continuously sustained it, rather than soley bringing other dream selves into her dream.