Misogi vs Diavolo

[Firephoenixearl]

Misogi stomps for reasons above.

That a vote or?

Also nah it's not a stomp. If Diavolo could think before Misogi could think it'd be a win for him. In this case it's equal, so it's just decisive for Misogi. Not a stomp condition.

 

[Agnaa]

That a vote or?

Also nah it's not a stomp. If Diavolo could think before Misogi could think it'd be a win for him. In this case it's equal, so it's just decisive for Misogi. Not a stomp condition.

Wait so let me get this straight:

1. Thinking slightly more quickly than another character isn't a stomp, such as two cowboys having a duel and one always being slightly faster.

2. If Misogi didn't think, Diavolo could kill him.

3. Since Misogi can think at the same time as Diavolo, Diavolo can't kill him.

4. Therefore it's not a stomp, since it's due to thinking speed (as per 2 and 3), and thinking speed isn't a stomp (as per 1).

Is this accurate?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

If probability works during time erasure, then Misogi stomps. If it doesn't, then it's inconclusive.

 

[Ogbunabali]

That's the problem, Diavolo using time skip won't stop Misogi's probability hax. It would be who shoots first if it was EE vs Prob hax for example. In this case it's not, cus Diavolo's time skip is not lethal and will therefore not stop Misogi's prob hax.

Now you're just contradicting yourself.

Diavolo's hax either works and it's an incon, or it doesn't work and it's a stomp.

You can't have your cake and eat it too mate.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait so let me get this straight:

1. Thinking slightly more quickly than another character isn't a stomp, such as two cowboys having a duel and one always being slightly faster.

2. If Misogi didn't think, Diavolo could kill him.

3. Since Misogi can think at the same time as Diavolo, Diavolo can't kill him.

4. Therefore it's not a stomp, since it's due to thinking speed (as per 2 and 3), and thinking speed isn't a stomp (as per 1).

Is this accurate?

Exactly.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

In that case, I vote inconclusive.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

In that case, I vote inconclusive.

Ok sure, you have to name the reasons though. There are currently no votes or arguments for inconclusive.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Via them thinking at the same time.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Via them thinking at the same time.

Yes, but that is a win condition for Misogi. Thinking at the same time would result in Misogi winning.

 

[Agnaa]

This seems different from other incons from who shoots first. Usually it's:

A: If character A shoots first, they win.

B: If character B shoots first, they win.

C: If both shoot at the same time, they both die, inconclusive.

Overall from these results, the result is inconclusive, however in this one:

A: If Diavolo thinks first, he wins.

B: If Misogi thinks first, he becomes unkillable, and eventually wins.

C: If they both think at the same time, Misogi becomes unkillable and can then kill Diavolo at his leisure.

So I don't see why them thinking at the same time would lead to an incon.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Does Diavolo win if he thinks first?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Does Diavolo win if he thinks first?

Yep, but this is speed equal, so he'll be thinking at the same time.

 

[Ogbunabali]

C: If they both think at the same time, Misogi becomes unkillable and can then kill Diavolo at his leisure.

If we're going to argue semantics that much, than Diavolo wins because he just activates his stand, while Misogi needs to think about a specific sitation, which is going to take longer than Diavolo just activating KC.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not rly. Misogi just needs to manipulate his winning probability.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Which takes longer than Diavolo activating KC. By the time Misogi goes "He isn't going to hurt me" KC is already activated and Diavolo has won. Not to mention you need to provide scans to show that his power works on such general levels, since all I've seen about his power it's been minor very specific things and never as general as him just winning.

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's pointless trying to argue which thought-based single action would happen more quickly in a speed-equalized match.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing scans about Misogi using his ability on a general level.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I think it's pointless trying to argue which thought-based single action would happen more quickly in a speed-equalized match.

C: If they both think at the same time, Misogi becomes unkillable and can then kill Diavolo at his leisure.

Like come on. No one is even trying anymore on this thread.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's a light novel, and his only fight against a physically comparable opponent turned out to be the worst opponent for him, and easily the most haxed dude in the entire series Amane Shinomiya and he got absolutely desimated. But it was stated that the only reason he couldn't turn his probability of winning to 100% was because (most of the cast is tier 8 and will go to tier 7 with the CRT that's in progress) he was physically MUCH weaker than his opponent and therefore in a fist fight it was impossible for him to win. He has no such troubles against Diavolo though.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Show scans of his fights mate, or at least his hax. And KC is 8-C so yes he does a problem.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Like come on. No one is even trying anymore on this thread.

I think you're just overstressing yourself over a loss. Tell you what, if you want i won't remove the loss Ikki got vs Diavolo and will add new keys for the upgrades instead (if i can). You can just call a discussion mod if you think this match is not fair.

 

[Agnaa]

Like come on. No one is even trying anymore on this thread.

>you shouldn't say one thought's faster than another

>if they both think at the same time, their abilities activate at the same time, making Misogi unkillable at the exact time that Diavolo kills him

These two things don't contradict each other.

 

[Agnaa]

Show scans of his fights mate, or at least his hax. And KC is 8-C so yes he does a problem.

KC is 8-C, but Misogi only has trouble with damaging higher-tiers, not with avoiding damage from them. And Diavolo himself is only 10-A.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

KC is 8-C, but Misogi only has trouble with damaging higher-tiers, not with avoiding damage from them. And Diavolo himself is only 10-A.

^^

Misogi can still land a finishing blow on Diavolo himself which will end the fight, that's why his winning chance is higher than 0%.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

The result of this thread is objectively false, you're the one that tries too hard to add a loss on Diavolo's profile.

Still waiting for scans.

>you shouldn't say one thought's faster than another

>if they both think at the same time, their abilities activate at the same time, making Misogi unkillable at the exact time that Diavolo kills him

These two things don't contradict each other.

The whole argument is "if" they think in at the same time then Misogi wins, to which I said, if you're going to argue semantics on "if they're going to think at the same time" then that's false, because if they do think at the same time Diavolo's activating of KC is still faster.

KC is 8-C, but Misogi only has trouble with damaging higher-tiers, not with avoiding damage from them. And Diavolo himself is only 10-A.

And KC isn't going to protect him? And how did he lose in his fights with stronger opponents?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Og

It wasn't me who did Ikki vs Diavolo. Rakudai vs Jojo just gave me this idea.

https://rakudai-kishi.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Box Read up, It's a light novel i'd have to search through 9 volumes for scans like that. If you don't trust me trust the wikia.


And no, it's not the same. Cus Misogi can still land a finishing blow on Diavolo which will end the fight. The same cannot be said about Ikki. No matter how many times Misogi punches Ikki he's never going to deal significant damage and can therefore "never" win the fight. He can deal a finishing blow to Diavolo and that's why he has a small chance at victory. KC is just going to lower his chances of victory, not turning them to 0.

 

[Agnaa]

The whole argument is "if" they think in at the same time then Misogi wins, to which I said, if you're going to argue semantics on "if they're going to think at the same time" then that's false, because if they do think at the same time Diavolo's activating of KC is still faster.

And KC isn't going to protect him? And how did he lose in his fights with stronger opponents?

I don't think we can have an argument over which single-thought thought-activated ability would activate first in speed equalized. That's not a discussion that can happen. We can arbitrarily choose for ourselves which would happen first, but I think the only reasonable answer, since they're both simply thought-activated and both are only a single thought, is that they'd have the same speed.

KC would protect Diavolo, but that presumably doesn't prevent Misogi from finding an opening to win, or forcing an opening to be there with his ability.

I'm not familiar with the source material (I'm just going off the profiles) so I can't answer that question.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

You need to provide evidence if you want to do such a large claim, because the only thing that wiki says is that it revesed an injury, I see how that translates to "oh he thinks win and wins".

"Utakata could erase Ikki injuries with Black Box"

And why do you keep brining up Ikki's fight, literally no one is talking about that.

snip

Which is why this is inconclusive, it's who shoots first, arguing semantics is meaningless. Sure if we have a scan of how his power works, because so far nothing has been provided. And his page says

"Utakata specifically is unable to use the ability for offense, as his physical condition is too weak to defeat opponents naturally, thus the act of Utakata winning has a zero percent chance. "

Which means KC is probably more than enough to defend him against whatever Misogi can do.

 

[Agnaa]

Which is why this is inconclusive, it's who shoots first, arguing semantics is meaningless. Sure if we have a scan of how his power works, because so far nothing has been provided. And his page says

"Utakata specifically is unable to use the ability for offense, as his physical condition is too weak to defeat opponents naturally, thus the act of Utakata winning has a zero percent chance. "

Which means KC is probably more than enough to defend him against whatever Misogi can do.

I already explained why, even though this is who shoots first, it isn't an incon as that usually is. Read my post here.

However, I do agree that scans would be very helpful here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

A bit of clarification. Misogi has only lost "once". And that was against Amane Shinomiya who completely outhaxes most people, he's not an ordinary opponent, and in that fight poor Misogi was trashed and put into a coma (which is on the profiles already).

No other fight. He has stated however that he didn't take part in the tournament as "Black Box cannot be used offensively against a stronger opponent, as the chances of winning in that case would be 0. And everybody that would take part in the tournament would be far stronger than him". That is not the case here as Diavolo doesn't fit the criteria.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Again if you're going to bring up the argument of "thinking at the same time" then KC activates faster and wins.

 

[Ogbunabali]

No other fight. He has stated however that he didn't take part in the tournament as "Black Box cannot be used offensively against a stronger opponent, as the chances of winning in that case would be 0. And everybody that would take part in the tournament would be far stronger than him". That is not the case here as Diavolo doesn't fit the criteria.

KC is 8-C.

 

[Agnaa]

Again if you're going to bring up the argument of "thinking at the same time" then KC activates faster and wins.

What's your proof that KC activates faster? It's speed equalized and they're both single-thought actions, they happen at the exact same time. There is no faster.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Here is the statement from the wiki.

Utakata specifically is unable to use the ability for offense, as his physical condition is too weak to defeat opponents naturally, thus the act of Utakata winning has a zero percent chance.

Utakata winning here has more than a 0% chance of happening and that chance can therefore be manipulated. Simple as that.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Because they're not single thought actions, KC is activated instantly while Misogi needs to actually think of a specific statement of what he wants to do.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Isn't one of Diavolo's timeskip abilities, the "everyone moves according to how they were fated/going to move but I still move the way I want even if fate tells me otherwise?"

Like, the reason Bruno was still punching the same spot was because Diavolo was supposed to be there, but because timeskip he moved away.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

KC is 8-C.

Diavolo is not. If Misogi punches Diavolo it's GG. Therefore the chance exists.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Here is the statement from the wiki.
Utakata specifically is unable to use the ability for offense, as his physical condition is too weak to defeat opponents naturally, thus the act of Utakata winning has a zero percent chance.

Utakata winning here has more than a 0% chance of happening and that chance can therefore be manipulated. Simple as that.

Ok how?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Diavolo is not. If Misogi punches Diavolo it's GG. Therefore the chance exists.

And KC is going to defend him...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because they're not single thought actions, KC is activated instantly while Misogi needs to actually think of a specific statement of what he wants to do.

KC:

I want to stop time

Misogi:

I win.

How is one faster than the other exactly?

 

[Agnaa]

Because they're not single thought actions, KC is activated instantly while Misogi needs to actually think of a specific statement of what he wants to do.

Prove that these thoughts take different amounts of time.

There is no way to measure, independent from speed, how long a fictional thought takes. It is completely 100% impossible.