minor Gwen Stacy CRT (Into / Across the spiderverse, basically spoiler free other than trailers)

[Guacamolefletcher]

Speed: Supersonic (Comparable to Gwen, who outpaced a bullet to save her father[1])

This is Miles' current speed reasoning. However, this has been retconned.



They show an inaccurate depiction of events that's probably what the characters imagined. If you see the scene showing Peter, they use Peter B's model, which is not what he looked like at all, which is already a blow to the credibility of the scene. We actually see it go down in Across the Spiderverse, and he doesn't look like that, like a full grown version of Peter B.

The more egreggious one is how they show her save her dad. Her dad's appearance is completely changed in Across the spideverse.



Hence, this shouldn't be used in the speed justification. What makes more sense is scaling them to other characters, like Peni and Peter Noir, who both dodged bullets and Miles who in the new film can evade characters relative in speed to Spectacular Spiderman and Insomniac Spider-Man. Both of these versions have very consistent and blatant supersonic to hypersonic scaling, and possibly even Massively Hypersonic+. This makes more sense than using the retconned scene, though that's the topic of another CRT, and likely wouldn't scale to a newly endowed Miles who's barely expressed his true powers, and a new key should be made for his newer version.

Agree: Emirp Sumitpo,

​

Excel616​

Neutral:
Disagree: Lonkitt, Marvel Champion, King Tempest

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

This makes sense to me.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Lonkitt]

I don't think the "retcon' should be considered so much a change of events as it is a change in models used to be honest

I would like to bring up that for new speed scaling, Miles dodges a punch from Unlimited, which is a High Hypersonic feat. At the moment, its likely the best rating to go with if we're to move above Supersonic

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I would like to bring up that for new speed scaling, Miles dodges a punch from Unlimited, which is a High Hypersonic feat. At the moment, its likely the best rating to go with if we're to move above Supersonic

Yeah that's all I'm saying, we remove this as justification.

I don't think the "retcon' should be considered so much a change of events as it is a change in models used to be honest

Not really... the events shown for her peter were completely different, not just minor changes. Furthermore, all she says herself is she saved her dad. We don't know how she did this, and the calc is immediately not reliable since the version of her dad they show is shorter and skinnier.

How are we supposed to use this calc that comes from a feat with completely unreliable visuals?

Finally, I think that a different CRT needs to be made, 100%, but having the ratings hinge on this scene is flimsy

 

[Nullflowerblush]

probably what the characters imagined

Prove this.

Prove that her entire introduction is fabricated by Miles and Peter. Prove that, even though Earth-1610 Peter, Peter B., Peni, Noir, and Porker's introductions are viewed from an objective lenses, Gwen's introduction is viewed from the subjective perspective of her listeners.

Prove that, because Captain Stacy and Earth-65 Peter received updated models in Across the Spider-Verse, the scene of Gwen rescuing Stacy from the bullet is suddenly completely invalid. Prove that expanding upon Gwen and The Lizard's confrontation automatically rules out the scene with Stacy and the gunman as irrelevant and non-canon. Earth-65 Peter reusing the model of Peter B.—which, coincidentally, happens to act as the basis for the models of Earth-1610 Peter and Noir—is not a result of subjective and unreliable perspective, it is the result of time constraints. Lead animator Nick Kondo confirmed that the Lizard in Gwen's introduction reuses the Green Goblin's model because they needed to cut corners for time, but Gwen fought the Lizard regardless. Models being different is not a valid reason to disregard a scene entirely.

Is Miguel's cameo appearance in the first film considered non-canon now because his model is completely different in Across the Spider-Verse? That post-credits scene sets up part of the plot of the second film, but, hey, Miguel looked different then, which means the entire scene is retconned.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

man... does this mean i have to remove earth-1610 peter's lifting feats from peter b.'s profile? a lot of them come from his introduction...

 

[KingTempest]

This that bullshit
I violently disagree with this thread

They show an inaccurate depiction of events that's probably what the characters imagined. If you see the scene showing Peter, they use Peter B's model, which is not what he looked like at all, which is already a blow to the credibility of the scene. We actually see it go down in Across the Spiderverse, and he doesn't look like that, like a full grown version of Peter B.

Ok, so that specific scene is retconned, not the entire introduction. It was put down differently and it shows a different Peter.

"I was bitten by a radioactive spider" is now retconned too?

The more egreggious one is how they show her save her dad. Her dad's appearance is completely changed in Across the spideverse.

That's called a design change, not a retcon

Disagree:

Add me here

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Yeah, on second thoughts, I change my vote to disagree. What Nullflower and the others said make more sense

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Supersonic likely Hypersonic is ofc still on the table because of Spectacular being the original character

Although the supersonic calc does not need to be removed

 

[Therefir]

Are you really trying to claim that the entire introduction was retconned just because this specific scene uses a different model? I disagree with this.

I would like to bring up that for new speed scaling, Miles dodges a punch from Unlimited, which is a High Hypersonic feat. At the moment, its likely the best rating to go with if we're to move above Supersonic

There are several different Unlimited Spider-Men in the film, and the one showing his canon event already has differences with the one in the series.

Just keep that in mind, at most this is grounds for a "possible" rating.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, on second thoughts, I change my vote to disagree. What Nullflower and the others said make more sense

Yeah, I disagree with the removal of the calc as well

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Prove that her entire introduction is fabricated by Miles and Peter. Prove that, even though Earth-1610 Peter, Peter B., Peni, Noir, and Porker's introductions are viewed from an objective lenses, Gwen's introduction is viewed from the subjective perspective of her listeners.

I'm giving this as more like a theory / explanation because I think the retcon mentality is typically an L way to look at stories. My point is regardless that it's contextually been changed.

Prove that, because Captain Stacy and Earth-65 Peter received updated models in Across the Spider-Verse, the scene of Gwen rescuing Stacy from the bullet is suddenly completely invalid

It's not just new designs for the Earth-65 Peter, the scene itself is completely different, and it's in a school dance now, when it wasn't before. I'm not saying it's completely invalid, but I'm saying it's fuzzy if it should be used or not.

Prove that expanding upon Gwen and The Lizard's confrontation

it's not just that. outside of the model for Peter changing, the context (background) and sequence of events changed.

Earth-65 Peter reusing the model of Peter B.—which, coincidentally, happens to act as the basis for the models of Earth-1610 Peter and Noir—is not a result of subjective and unreliable perspective, it is the result of time constraints

Again, my theory about subjective / unreliable perspective was simply an explanation for the change in-universe. I never meant to treat it as an absolute fact.

Models being different is not a valid reason to disregard a scene entirely.

IDK cause if the scene in general was made with the time constraints, it seems liek they weren't really portraying what they wanted to portray in it.

Is Miguel's cameo appearance in the first film considered non-canon now because his model is completely different in Across the Spider-Verse? That post-credits scene sets up part of the plot of the second film, but, hey, Miguel looked different then, which means the entire scene is retconned.

He just gets buffer, it's not a completely different bone structure and whatnot

man... does this mean i have to remove earth-1610 peter's lifting feats from peter b.'s profile? a lot of them come from his introduction...

Nah that introduction wasn't retconned in any way

"I was bitten by a radioactive spider" is now retconned too?

Nah but the specific portrayal of earth-65 Peter and her dad was, which includes the bullet thing

That's called a design change, not a retcon

I mean in this cause, it's changing the design in a pretty significant way, and the context. They portrayed it previously with an old Peter, and the new one retcons him to being young. That goes beyond just the design.

Supersonic likely Hypersonic is ofc still on the table because of Spectacular being the original character

Completely fine with that BTW. My point was the flawed use of that scene

 

[Lonkitt]

TBH the design change "retcon" is like saying "The Incredible Hulk isn't canon anymore because they changed Bruce's actor". It hasn't changed just because of design alterations

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

There are several different Unlimited Spider-Men in the film, and the one showing his canon event already has differences with the one in the series.

Just keep that in mind, at most this is grounds for a "possible" rating.

Wait, are you sure there are several different ones? I only remember seeing the one
Regardless the Spiderman PS4 one carries over, though that's for another CRT

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

TBH the design change "retcon" is like saying "The Incredible Hulk isn't canon anymore because they changed Bruce's actor". It hasn't changed just because of design alterations

Again, I already explained why the whole sequence surrounding her peter being changed in more than just the backstory / design is a big important change, but I concede to this thread not getting accepted

Just close it

 

[Lonkitt]

Just close it

You don't want to argue more on the speed upgrade side of things still?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

You don't want to argue more on the speed upgrade side of things still?

Ah, for that I said I wanted to make a different thread. This was just the start. The thread would be WAAAAAAAAAAY incomplete in terms of evidence if it was just that TBH. Granted, I want some more discussion on that later cause there's a lot to factor into this

There are several different Unlimited Spider-Men in the film, and the one showing his canon event already has differences with the one in the series.

Just keep that in mind, at most this is grounds for a "possible" rating.

BTW I just binged Spectacular spidey in 2 days, and the captain stacy they show doesn't look much like the one from the show, that's all Imma say for now, and I'm not implying anything, I'm just saying I noticed

 

[Lonkitt]

BTW I just binged Spectacular spidey in 2 days, and the captain stacy they show doesn't look much like the one from the show, that's all Imma say for now, and I'm not implying anything, I'm just saying I noticed

I mean, the angle doesn't exactly help in comparing the two designs. We definitely know this is in fact the same Spidey from SSM, the movie and cast made it pretty clear on that front

I'll close this