Minor change for marvel and dc power scaling page

[Confluctor]

Iceman defeating Oblivion

Here is the fun part, he didn't actually defeat Oblivion. Oblivion wanted to taste defeat and triumph, but he ended up feeling neither because he "lacks emotions", so that's why Oblivion was "defeated". Oblivion's avatar wasn't even fighting back most of the fight, he was just trying to get Bobby angry and fight him. And the moment he was "defeated", his "daughter" accepted herself, and he was back on his feet as if nothing had happened.

And the reason Iceman came out of his body without being absorbed into the Void is because of his strong emotion to live and for love. Something this whole story is about and how Oblivion wants love - not romantic necessarily.


Tl;dr, Oblivion's avatar was toying with Ice Man and wanted to taste defeat, but when it didn't work out, he kinda gave up and "ate" Iceman. So, it is misleading to keep such misinformation on the page.


Source: Iceman Vol 1 4

 

[XXKINGXX69]

What was that? You agree with Ice Man being 1-A? Sure

 

[Confluctor]

.....what?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I agree

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

this makes sense

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with OP

 

[Peppersalt43]

But can we replace it with another example? Maybe the one where Thanos gets busted by cops? It's incredibly obvious and would probably remain an applicable example of PIS for long periods of time

 

[Confluctor]

Maybe the one where Thanos gets busted by cops?

Alternate reality gag comic where reality warping weapon such as cosmic cube was used.

Quite a few of these examples on the page are shit and lacks context, but I don't really have the time to change them all.

 

[Teezar]

Even the Batman kicking the spectre is pure NLF only people who read the book know it was spectre's way to gain Batman's attention.
People only used that first scan of the kick to judge everything that happened then without reading the book.

Anyways OP makes sense.

 

[Confluctor]

can agree with Batman's removal too. I never understood why it was there.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm pretty much convinced that 80% of 'ludicrous feats that make power-scaling in comics unreliable' are bullshit in context. Surprisingly, the writers who created Oblivion didn't suddenly forget he's supposed to be stronger than Iceman.

The iffiness tends to be on a much smaller scale, like, does this character scale to Captain America or Daredevil, not doe this character scale to Captain America or Thanos.

 

[Confluctor]

It was also Oblivion's first appearance. So back then, he wasn't that special, but the writer made is quite clear that Iceman didn't "defeat" him.

 

[The_Impress]

Yeah the Iceman vs. Oblivion one was always bullshit, don't even know why we list it.

If it comes to substituting it, we can just use the infamous Firelord vs. Spider-Man which correct me if I'm wrong, never gets retconned

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Didn't Spider-Man get some kind of weird power of friendship boost or something

 

[The_Impress]

Didn't Spider-Man get some kind of weird power of friendship boost or something

...no what? In general "friendship boost" is PIS unless your verse is My Little Pony or some shit.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

...no what? In general "friendship boost" is PIS unless your verse is My Little Pony or some shit.

youre just knocking the power of friendship smh
iim like 90% sure you told me it was a power of friendship thing

 

[The_Impress]

I think I said it was LIKE friendship boost, and again those are PIS.

 

[Confluctor]

Le bump

 

[Confluctor]

bump

 

[Confluctor]

bump

 

[The_Impress]

…you’re staff, just tag supporters lol

@Antvasima @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

 

[Confluctor]

True lol

 

[Antvasima]

We can remove the Oblivion example if you wish. The other ones should stay though.

 

[Confluctor]

Batman's?

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain. We need to keep the other top images, and would need to find a better replacement example, as well as merge it together with the remaining images. I also don't have the time to do so myself.

 

[Confluctor]

Finding a replacement will be better than putting clearly false info imo. So until then, that should most definitely be removed. It will send a rather odd message to the visitors of the wiki

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait until somebody here suggests a replacement example please. The page layout will look weird otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Or would you be willing to rearrange the other component parts of the following two images, so they fit together well, @MonkeyOfLife ?

Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

There are several massive problems with using power-scaling for these two prominent franchises that have shared hundreds of different authors over several decades. Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Eficiente]

I agree, and if anyone wants to reword any part of those pages we can see over that too.

 

[Confluctor]

While we are here...

To illustrate, Marvel's executive editor Tom Brevoort, who is also in charge of writing the official handbooks for the company, and is likely the highest current authority regarding the company's internal continuity and power levels, had this to say regarding the topic:

"I get the sense that, somewhere, there’s a mighty battle boards-style discussion going on about the Sentry. And I try to stay out of those. But I will say that the transitive property has never applied to super heroes. After all, the Fantastic Four and Iron Man and even the Man-Thing have defeated the Molecule Man in the past, and doing so didn’t make them anything more than themselves."

Can this bit be changed too?

I don't really see how this quote is really relevant to contradictory feats. All of these happened because of Molecule's mental instability, which even the Living Tribunal took a note of and confirmed - FF Annual 27. Molecule Man's stats vary greatly, so defeating him doesn't mean it's contradictory or inconsistent.

• Aunt May is not significantly weaker than J. Jonah Jameson, who has punched Spider-Man bloody on his own, who is physically stronger than the Black Panther, who beat the Tiger God, and used it to defeat Logos, who killed The Living Tribunal, who is more powerful than Infinity according to the official handbooks, who stalemated Oblivion. (1-A Aunt May)

This one is missing a crap ton of context too. The whole story was about how the rules are out of place and aren't set in stone. In addition, this whole fight stuff happened on a conceptual plane where everyone was amped beyond belief. In the same story, Galactus explains it pretty well to Ego how this plane works before Ego was amped to the level of conceptual entities. Hell, even Black Panther says this. On top of that, the whole story arc deals with metaphorical shenanigans about how humanity is better and whatnot. So, in terms of context, this one doesn't make a speck of sense either.

• Starbrand killed one of The Beyonders, who in turn killed The Living Tribunal. (Low 1-A Starbrand)

This bit also needs to be removed. The Beyonder Drones seems to have varying power levels. They have weaker ones, and then more powerful ones. We literally list it on their page.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hot damn, how many examples are even gonna be left lol

 

[Confluctor]

A lot... Honestly the most of the page needs to be rehashed from scratch

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, we definitely should focus on more down to Earth and less extreme scaling inconsistencies like High 8-C Kingpin rather than over the top stuff like 9-C or 1-A Hulk that reflects 0.1% of his actual comic book portrayals.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Okay, how about this issue? It's an old one (And because I'm not that much of a comic fan, I couldn't find the actual PDF) but what about that one where Daredevil takes on Namor?

Here's the review video. It's the one where Namor wants to sue the surface world


That can be used to create another one of those insane scaling chains since Namor is a mid tier if I recall

 

[Antvasima]

The Tom Brevoort example is just there to illustrate that neither he nor Stan Lee have cared at all about consistent powerscaling during their times in charge. That is all. The Molecule Man being retconned/rationalised a lot over the years is not particularly significant for this context.

I extremely strongly disagree with removing the Aunt May example. Removing it would likely dismantle much of the entire point of the page. There is some context missing about the cosmic entities being more comparable to each other than previously due to Multi-Eternity being recreated and The First Firmament possibly empowering Chaos and Order, but that does not excuse the Black Panther defeating the Tiger God, and using it to defeat the (possibly empowered) Logos (the merged form of Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener), other than Al Ewing being ridiculously biased regarding the character. Also, the entire point of the scaling sequence is that taking everything at face value, this is what you would end up with.

As far as I understand from other old Tom Brevoort comments, the entities that Starbrand defeated were genuinely supposed to be regular Beyonders, not comparatively insignificant drones. Ourselves listing them as such is inaccurate. Monica Rambeau/Spectrum also nearly defeated a similar entity in another Al Ewing story, so there is that issue as well.

Anyway, it is hard to argue with that the power levels, and especially the relative/comparative rankings of different characters have been all over the place over the years, depending on which of hundreds of different writers that was in charge of each story. I just used some of the most extreme examples to properly drive the point home to our audience. Using comparatively insignificant examples are not remotely sufficient for our purposes in this regard.

 

[Confluctor]

Source: Daredevil Vol 1 7

Let's add a context to this

• Namor didn't really want to fight
• As we can see, even humans don't die from his hits
• Yes, DD can react to him, but as we established, Namor just wanted to put on a show
• But still faster than DD
• And then this
• Confuses him with smoke screen
• The rest of the fight
• When namor fights back properly again
• Electricity - but unharmed overall

 

[Confluctor]

The Tom Brevoort example is just there to illustrate that neither he nor Stan Lee have cared at all about consistent powerscaling over the years. That is all. The Molecule Man being retconned/rationalised a lot over the years is not very significant for this context.

I don't see how those that scan, in particular, illustrates that? The Molecule Man one. Especially since his varied power mechanism has existed since practically day one.

I extremely strongly disagree with removing the Aunt May example. Removing it would dismantle the entire point of the page.

Not necessarily no.

Also scans for these claims of JJJ hurting spidey will be appreciated. Was spider-man at full power? If so, why or why not? Was JJ amped? Was he using the spider-buster thing?

There is some context missing about the cosmic entities being more comparable to each other than previously due to Multi-Eternity being recreated and The First Firmament possibly empowering Chaos and Order,

If anything, the comic hints that Logos was possibly weakened when Eternity escaped from FF, and then the whole tiger god thing happens after that. On top of that, the Queen of Possibilities was there. And she had a rather important role in their entire battle.

but that does not excuse the Black Panther defeating the Tiger God,

Panther defeating Tiger God, sure, ig. But we don't even see the whole thing. It just cuts to black and nothing happens. There is no way Black Panther defeated him physically. He wasn't even there to fight, but moreso to convince the tiger god.

and using it to defeat (possibly empowered) The Logos (the merged form of Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener),

See my earlier point

Also, the entire point of the scaling sequence is that taking everything at face value, this is what you would end up with.

I think there are much better examples than this for that.

As far as I understand from other old Tom Brevoort comments, the entities that Starbrand defeated were genuinely supposed to be regular Beyonders, not comparatively insignificant drones. Ourselves listing them as such is inaccurate. Monica Rambeau/Spectrum also nearly defeated a similar entity in another Al Ewing story, so there is that issue as well.

Then maybe we should change the Beyonders files and remove the scaling chain. Because we are using our headcanon for this inconsistency.

Anyway, it is hard to argue with that the power levels, and especially the relative/comparative rankings of different characters have been all over the place over the years, depending on which of hundreds of different writers that was in charge of each story. I just used some of the most extreme examples to properly drive the point home to our audience. Using comparatively insignificant examples are not remotely sufficient for our purposes in this regard.

I don't disagree with inconsistent power scaling stuff, but taking things out of context to illustrate a point is also... not a good look on our end. What kind of message does that send to the visitors of the site - especially comic book readers?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Let's add a context to this

Huh, I was actually hoping for hidden context that the video missed that would strengthen this. Instead it's the opposite. Shame

That's all I got for now. I'll try and find more examples

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah the Iceman vs. Oblivion one was always bullshit, don't even know why we list it.

If it comes to substituting it, we can just use the infamous Firelord vs. Spider-Man which correct me if I'm wrong, never gets retconned

we should just use this one, at least it doesn't lack context


Actually, I got better. Literally use anything by donny cates. Or Venom the End.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't see how those that scan, in particular, illustrates that? The Molecule Man one. Especially since his varied power mechanism has existed since practically day one.

Well, I do recall Tom Brevoort being disdainful in general of powerscaling, and this quote was intended to illustrate that, but if you can search through his old questions and answers columns to find a better one, feel free to do so.

Not necessarily no.

Also scans for these claims of JJJ hurting spidey will be appreciated. Was spider-man at full power? If so, why or why not? Was JJ amped? Was he using the spider-buster thing?

From what I recall it was just an unmasked Spider-Man letting regular Jonah punch him repeatedly until he was quite bloodied in the face.

If anything, the comic hints that Logos was possibly weakened when Eternity escaped from FF, and then the whole tiger god thing happens after that. On top of that, the Queen of Possibilities was there. And she had a rather important role in their entire battle.

I don't remember him being weakened below the level that a merger of the multiversal concepts of Chaos and Order should be. His possible additional power supply might have been cut off though.

Panther defeating Tiger God, sure, ig. But we don't even see the whole thing. It just cuts to black and nothing happens. There is no way Black Panther defeated him physically. He wasn't even there to fight, but moreso to convince the tiger god.

That is not what we were shown. The Panther and the Tiger God were clearly preparing to fight each other physically.

I think there are much better examples than this for that.

We do need some very extreme examples to hammer home the point that we cannot just blindly powerscale everybody to everybody, as we would end up with a complete mess, and this is a very good one as far as I am concerned.