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Minecraft: Upgrade for Explosive Mobs
- Thread starter Nemo212
- Start date
- Status
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Even in normal, End Crystals is still much, much more powerful than any non-explosive Minecraft attack.
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- Thread starter
- #83
Let's get Ender Dragon scaling out of the way first, actually, since it scales to the least amount of profiles. Does the below seem fine to everyone? Did I miss anything?
I didn't include Iron Golems since they can't directly attack the Ender Dragon. I also didn't include Withers because as outlined previously, the Wither killing the Ender Dragon from small amounts of damage accumulated over time is Game Mechanics.
I also think we should just scale End Crystals to charged creepers to keep things simple.
From scaling to the Ender Dragon's Low 7-C feat
I didn't include Iron Golems since they can't directly attack the Ender Dragon. I also didn't include Withers because as outlined previously, the Wither killing the Ender Dragon from small amounts of damage accumulated over time is Game Mechanics.
I also think we should just scale End Crystals to charged creepers to keep things simple.
From scaling to the Ender Dragon's Low 7-C feat
- Ender Drago
- Tier/AP
- Striking Strength
- Durability
- The Player (Lategame key only)
- Tier/AP
- Striking Strength
- Durability
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The Player can do as much in-game damage as the Ender Dragon on Hard mode with a diamond sword + Sharpness V + Potion of Strength II, so AP of late game player seems good. The Ender Dragon's durability could be scaled from the re-calced Creeper if it's higher and once that's done, because she can tank several hits from the Creeper at point blank range. The Player is actually significantly less durable than the Ender Dragon. The reason that you can survive when you fight the Ender Dragon is because you regenerate really fast and the dragon usually just circles the island and doesn't come and hit you. If the dragon actually continuously charged at you, the fight would be pretty much impossible.
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Yo if we upgrading Steve might as well add heat resistance to his base Key
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3858031 Made a thread about that that didn't get much attention
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3858031 Made a thread about that that didn't get much attention
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""Destroyed" blocks have a chance of dropping as collectible resources (and otherwise disappear), and this chance is 1Ôüäp, where p is the explosion power. So, a creeper blast (uncharged) has a 1Ôüä3 chance of dropping a block." creeper' blast (uncharged) has a 1Ôüä3 chance of dropping a block."
Assuming the blocks destroyed in the post is correct, Creepers only Pulverize 10 blocks of diamond. 1.1e12 joules, 8-A
Charge Creeper: 27. 2.97e12 joules, 8-A+
End Crystal: 27. 2.97e12 joules, 8-A+
Wither: 44. 4.84e12 joules. Low 7-C
Ender Dragon fully pulverizes. 1.28700e13. Low 7-C.
Ghast's glass rating would only yield 'possibly', since glass doesn't drop even if you punch it with your fists, let alone an explosion. Honestly, just drop the Ghasts entirely and just scale them to others.
Assuming the blocks destroyed in the post is correct, Creepers only Pulverize 10 blocks of diamond. 1.1e12 joules, 8-A
Charge Creeper: 27. 2.97e12 joules, 8-A+
End Crystal: 27. 2.97e12 joules, 8-A+
Wither: 44. 4.84e12 joules. Low 7-C
Ender Dragon fully pulverizes. 1.28700e13. Low 7-C.
Ghast's glass rating would only yield 'possibly', since glass doesn't drop even if you punch it with your fists, let alone an explosion. Honestly, just drop the Ghasts entirely and just scale them to others.
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Also, a point blank creeper explosion does 24.5 hearts of damage,
Endermen and Iron Armor Players (iron armor shields 60% of damage) can survive close encounters, but just barely not a 100% point blank. They can downscale from this.
Endermen and Iron Armor Players (iron armor shields 60% of damage) can survive close encounters, but just barely not a 100% point blank. They can downscale from this.
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- Thread starter
- #88
Interesting. Didn't take the blocks dropping into account, but that seems like it could work. Thanks for sharing that.
So should we scale Ghasts to 8-C enemies like Zombies? And then that would mean that Wither Skull explosions would also be 8-C, since it's the same as a Ghast fireball physically?
So should we scale Ghasts to 8-C enemies like Zombies? And then that would mean that Wither Skull explosions would also be 8-C, since it's the same as a Ghast fireball physically?
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Very slightly off topic, but we're on the point of block destroying AP. People constantly bring up Silverfish burrowing into the block it infests, meaning that hollowness must be counted for its destruction. Silverfish are 30 centimeters tall and 40 centimeters long and wide, taking up 48,000 cubic centimeters from the 1,000,000 cubic centimeter stone, meaning their true AP should be for violently fragmenting 952,000 cubic centimeters of stone 65,688 kilojoules, 0.0156998088 tons of tnt... which rounds to 0.016 tons of tnt... which is what we've already had- this calc was a waste of time
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- Thread starter
- #90
That's fine. I did make a CTR for Silverfish a few days ago, so if you could repost it there so we could discuss it, that'd be great.
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Java Elder Guardians can actually survive TNT, which pulverizes 20 blocks normally.. 2.2e12 joules. 8-A+. They alone will downscale from this.
Charged creepers do 48.5 hearts of damage. Unenchanted Diamond armor Steve (shields 80% of damage), Iron Golem, Ravager, and groups of Vindicators can backscale from the charged creeper rating. I'm pretty sure unenchanted diamond armor steve isn't a real key on the wiki, since that ties into late-game since diamonds mean the start of enchantments, but the sword and axe unenchanted diamond keys can scale.
Everything else that should be above this should be the Late-Game steve (with fully enchanted diamond [...well, netherite] gear and potion effects), the Wither, and the Ender Dragon. Those guys obviously scale to their own Low 7-C feats, and Steve scales due to being able to canonically contend with them at this stage.
Charged creepers do 48.5 hearts of damage. Unenchanted Diamond armor Steve (shields 80% of damage), Iron Golem, Ravager, and groups of Vindicators can backscale from the charged creeper rating. I'm pretty sure unenchanted diamond armor steve isn't a real key on the wiki, since that ties into late-game since diamonds mean the start of enchantments, but the sword and axe unenchanted diamond keys can scale.
Everything else that should be above this should be the Late-Game steve (with fully enchanted diamond [...well, netherite] gear and potion effects), the Wither, and the Ender Dragon. Those guys obviously scale to their own Low 7-C feats, and Steve scales due to being able to canonically contend with them at this stage.
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- Thread starter
- #93
So, I've run into a bit of a problem.
Iron Golem AP apparently scales to the Wither's durability? But this video , which is probably the source for that statement based on what happens in it, is a total no-go. There's more than one Iron Golem fighting it, and additionally the players who had endgame-level gear were helping too.
They can also only do two hearts to the Player with full unenchanted diamond armor at most, and our endgame Player has higher durability than that.
I'm going to just peg them at 8-A for now. If anyone has any issues with that, now's the time to speak up.
Iron Golem AP apparently scales to the Wither's durability? But this video , which is probably the source for that statement based on what happens in it, is a total no-go. There's more than one Iron Golem fighting it, and additionally the players who had endgame-level gear were helping too.
They can also only do two hearts to the Player with full unenchanted diamond armor at most, and our endgame Player has higher durability than that.
I'm going to just peg them at 8-A for now. If anyone has any issues with that, now's the time to speak up.
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- Thread starter
- #94
Oh, for Christ's sake. Here's another problem.
Elder Guardians aren't considered bosses. Their page (falsely) claims they are, and scales them to the Wither and the Ender Dragon because of it. This is baloney, and there's no discernable difference between them in Java and in Pocket Edition. Getting rid of that key unless someone objects to it here.
EDIT: I also don't know why the Vindicator "in groups" key exists. We don't do that for any other mob. Zombies could overwhelm an iron Golem by Zerg rushing it too, but we don't put that on their profile. Getting rid of that as well.
Elder Guardians aren't considered bosses. Their page (falsely) claims they are, and scales them to the Wither and the Ender Dragon because of it. This is baloney, and there's no discernable difference between them in Java and in Pocket Edition. Getting rid of that key unless someone objects to it here.
EDIT: I also don't know why the Vindicator "in groups" key exists. We don't do that for any other mob. Zombies could overwhelm an iron Golem by Zerg rushing it too, but we don't put that on their profile. Getting rid of that as well.
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I've already explained the scaling in my earlier comments. I never stated Iron Golems scaled to Withers.
I don't see how that means they don't scale, considering how that's decent damage anyways.
Only Java Elder Guardians aren't considered bosses, that's why they have a separate key between Java and Bedrock .
Why are you editing profiles already? This thread never came to a conclusion.
I'm personally neutral on that matter, but that doesn't change the fact that you are rushing these edits.
I don't see how that means they don't scale, considering how that's decent damage anyways.
Only Java Elder Guardians aren't considered bosses, that's why they have a separate key between Java and Bedrock .
Why are you editing profiles already? This thread never came to a conclusion.
I'm personally neutral on that matter, but that doesn't change the fact that you are rushing these edits.
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And while we're at it, you should update your blog with the new values, because once we've concluded, we're going to have to link the blog as evidence for the tiers.
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- Thread starter
- #97
It wasn't one-on-one, so it can't scale. Simple as.
There is no difference between an Elder Guardian in Java and in Bedrock/Pocket edition. No change in health, attack damage, behavior, attacks themselves, nothing. They are functionally identical. And this in itself is pretty rare, usually there's some difference between Java and Bedrock. There is nothing here.
Editing the profiles because Ant said the calc could be used on the blog post comments.
Are you neutral on the Vindicator or editing? Unclear.
Going to update the blog in a bit, am pretty busy right now though. Won't be able to respond to the thread for a few.
There is no difference between an Elder Guardian in Java and in Bedrock/Pocket edition. No change in health, attack damage, behavior, attacks themselves, nothing. They are functionally identical. And this in itself is pretty rare, usually there's some difference between Java and Bedrock. There is nothing here.
Editing the profiles because Ant said the calc could be used on the blog post comments.
Are you neutral on the Vindicator or editing? Unclear.
Going to update the blog in a bit, am pretty busy right now though. Won't be able to respond to the thread for a few.
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To repeat myself: I never said the Iron Golems scaled to the Withers. Someone else made that scaling, not me. I'm scaling them from the charged creepers.
Being held up to the standards of 'boss' in games normally puts you above normal entities, since game mechanics could potentially say otherwise. Terraria, for example, a lot of normal enemies are far more of a threat than say, Eye of Cthulu.
Yes, the calc could be used, but we still need to discuss the profiles that get accepted to the calc before we do that. The calc being acceptable is just for the calc itself. Whether or not it can be used for a profile is a whole 'nother discussion.
Neutral on the Vindicator topic. I'm fully against premature editing.
Alright.
Being held up to the standards of 'boss' in games normally puts you above normal entities, since game mechanics could potentially say otherwise. Terraria, for example, a lot of normal enemies are far more of a threat than say, Eye of Cthulu.
Yes, the calc could be used, but we still need to discuss the profiles that get accepted to the calc before we do that. The calc being acceptable is just for the calc itself. Whether or not it can be used for a profile is a whole 'nother discussion.
Neutral on the Vindicator topic. I'm fully against premature editing.
Alright.
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For the Player, you must also consider armor toughness and enchantments, which affect how much damage is actually taken.
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They've been accounted for. Now we're just discussing the final tidbits before we implement everything.
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I just thought of something. The shockwave from explosions spread out as distance from the epicenter increases, so there should be an improved calc that calcs the energy required to still have the diamond pulverization energy density after the shockwave spreads out to the circumference of the crater.
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Yeah, no, that's not how the calcs work. I'm pretty sure that's Overpressure, which is an entirely different method of destruction calcing. The destruction doesn't reach any further than what is hit. Not that it matters, because going by that method is uprooting all destruction calcs like this in the entire wiki.
Let's just work with what we have for now instead of trying to play around with any more numbers.
Let's just work with what we have for now instead of trying to play around with any more numbers.
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This improvement is actually accounting for the less durable things that can be destroyed beyond the edge of the crater in diamond.
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Refer to my previous comment.
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I just did the calc, and it only made an about 1% difference, so the current calc is fine.
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Glass doesn't take a lot to pulverize at all. The pulverazation value of glass is based on its compressive strength which has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of energy a matherial can absorb before getting pulverized.Nemo212 said:
The only reason we are still using it is beause we have been using this method for so long than now it's too late to do any revisions .
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Just as I said, a regular blender with a minigan power output can pulverize about 40 cubic centimeters of glass in a few seconds. Do you think some iron nuts and bolts will get pulverized the same way since iron has an even lower pulverization value?
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Scaling off of glass pulverization always seemed weird to me. If Mr Bambu doesn't accept the destruction values for diamond either I'm not sure if they can be used, and they're treated as having the same destruction value as stone in-game.
As for Creeper scaling, Endermen can survive Creeper explosions... sorta. I tried three different methods; putting Endermen and Creepers in a hole with low blast resistance material and blowing the creeper up, splashing a creeper and enderman with slowness and forcing the creeper to blow up next to the enderman and blowing the creeper up on a single soul sand block above any other block. In all three cases the Enderman survived, and in most cases survived the fall damage after too, even in hard mode. However, the theoretical maximum yield of a Creeper explosion is 49 damage, whereas an Enderman has 40 health. Still, I'd say this is enough for it to scale. Other mobs obviously don't scale to the Enderman, since they get one-shot by the creeper explosion, have never actually fought the Enderman (but would lose badly) and the Enderman can't even survive the Creeper explosion well, so backscaling from someone who already backscales is super iffy.
The Wither should scale to the Ender Dragon. The End Crystals are outside help, and the Wither can destroy Obsidian by bashing into it which the Ender Dragon can't do. Not so sure about the Elder Guardian scaling; not all bosses are comparable to each other but it does have similar damage outputs, and beats a diamond gear player in a slugfest.
As for Creeper scaling, Endermen can survive Creeper explosions... sorta. I tried three different methods; putting Endermen and Creepers in a hole with low blast resistance material and blowing the creeper up, splashing a creeper and enderman with slowness and forcing the creeper to blow up next to the enderman and blowing the creeper up on a single soul sand block above any other block. In all three cases the Enderman survived, and in most cases survived the fall damage after too, even in hard mode. However, the theoretical maximum yield of a Creeper explosion is 49 damage, whereas an Enderman has 40 health. Still, I'd say this is enough for it to scale. Other mobs obviously don't scale to the Enderman, since they get one-shot by the creeper explosion, have never actually fought the Enderman (but would lose badly) and the Enderman can't even survive the Creeper explosion well, so backscaling from someone who already backscales is super iffy.
The Wither should scale to the Ender Dragon. The End Crystals are outside help, and the Wither can destroy Obsidian by bashing into it which the Ender Dragon can't do. Not so sure about the Elder Guardian scaling; not all bosses are comparable to each other but it does have similar damage outputs, and beats a diamond gear player in a slugfest.
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About Ghast fireball and Wither Skull explosions, we can calculate how much diamond it can theoretically destroy according to Minecraft explosion mechanics, but removing the limitation of blocks since that's obviously game mechanics. The Elder Guardian and Iron Golem can scale to the Creeper, since they can reliably survive a creeper explosion. The Elder Guardian can survive 2 slightly off creeper explosions, while the Iron Golem can survive 2 point blank ones. For scaling, you can use the mob battles mod, since it doesn't mess with anything except you can force mobs to fight each other.
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- Thread starter
- #111
Alright, apologies for my extended absence. Had to deal with some things of personal importance.
If the diamond pulverization values are really an issue that never should've been accepted in the first place, then I'm fine with dropping this whole calc. The following pages would need to be reverted:
Creeper (Minecraft)
Ravager (Minecraft)
Iron Golem
Guardian (Minecraft)
Ender Drago
End Crystal
If the diamond pulverization values are really an issue that never should've been accepted in the first place, then I'm fine with dropping this whole calc. The following pages would need to be reverted:
Creeper (Minecraft)
Ravager (Minecraft)
Iron Golem
Guardian (Minecraft)
Ender Drago
End Crystal
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I do think diamond pulverization values are an issue, but do not close this thread yet, in case the correct value is found later on.
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The reason why diamonds are so hald to destroy is because they are pretty much stronger than anything else and weaker material always absorb more energy during collisions. This is like trying to break a glass bottle by slaming it into a wooden wall. Wood will absorb most of the energy because glass is stronger
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