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Mind Manipulation revision: Numbers ain't everything

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For now I'll write something to clarify this stuff, then see if others find it fine as is to add to the Versus Thread Rules or so

"While the amount of subjects affected at once by an ability such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation can be relevant for their power, this isn't necessarily the case. Like most other [[Hax]] abilities, an higher number of affected individuals don't necessarily involve the act of applying more power than normal for it to work than with less individuals, instead falling as range instead, nor is necessarily usable by an user in a concentrated way against a single target.
In any case, an statement of such power becoming stronger if the amount of inflicted ones is lowered would be required to claim that the amount of targets affected is relevant for potency, and even then, it would remain unquantificable unless it can be compared directly to the act of bypassing a [[Resistance]] by overwhelming it. To overwhelm a baseline resistance to an ability, a display of [[Resistance Negation]] is required for up to the layers required to bypass the resistance of the target, if any, or having such ability up to a dimensional level where for the sake of No Limits Fallacy would be assumed to bypass such, unless the resistance is at the same or higher dimensional level."
 
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Bobsican said:
For now I'll write something to clarify this stuff, then see if others find it fine as is to add to the Versus Thread Rules or so

"While the amount of subjects affected at once by an ability such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation can be relevant for their power, this isn't necessarily a relevant factor to measure them. Like most other [[Hax]] abilities, an higher number of affected individuals don't necessarily involve the act of applying more power than normal for it to work than with less individuals, instead falling as range instead, nor is necessarily usable by an user in a concentrated way against a single target.
In any case, an statement of such power becoming stronger if the amount of inflicted ones is lowered would be required to claim that the amount of targets affected is relevant for potency, and even then, it would remain unquantificable unless it can be compared directly to the act of bypassing a [[Resistance]] by overwhelming it. To overwhelm a baseline resistance to an ability, a display of [[Resistance Negation]] is required for up to the layers required to bypass the resistance of the target, if any, or having such ability up to a dimensional level where for the sake of No Limits Fallacy would be assumed to bypass such, unless the resistance is at the same or higher dimensional level."
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I would use "Area of Effect" rather than range in this context.

Additionally, I wouldn't take bypassing resistance levels as primary metric either. There are more factors than just those two. And if mind hax can affect 1 billion people and number is relevant for its usage, then basic resistance won't cut it, IMO. If you have like 4 or so layers of mind hax resistance then it can be kinda hard to judge if it would work, but it's still definitely far above baseline. We shouldn't replace the problem with AoE Mindhax by NLFing mind hax resistance. Like, worst case above baseline mind hax vs above baseline mind hax resistance is just inconclusive.

I think demanding a "statement" exclusively also doesn't quite work. Typically that stuff is extrapolated based on how the mind hax is intended to work. Should be something in the direction of "Either a statement that (...) or something equivalent should be indicated by the mechanism."
 
Don't quite wanna spent the time reading the entire thread, but I read the OP and a few of the latest posts, I agree with the OP and with DT's suggestions for Bob's proposed writeup.
 
Bobsican said:
For now I'll write something to clarify this stuff, then see if others find it fine as is to add to the Versus Thread Rules or so

"While the amount of subjects affected at once by an ability such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation can be relevant for their power, this isn't necessarily the case. Like most other [[Hax]] abilities, an higher number of affected individuals don't necessarily involve the act of applying more power than normal for it to work than with less individuals, instead falling as range instead, nor is necessarily usable by an user in a concentrated way against a single target.
In any case, an statement of such power becoming stronger if the amount of inflicted ones is lowered would be required to claim that the amount of targets affected is relevant for potency, and even then, it would remain unquantificable unless it can be compared directly to the act of bypassing a [[Resistance]] by overwhelming it. To overwhelm a baseline resistance to an ability, a display of [[Resistance Negation]] is required for up to the layers required to bypass the resistance of the target, if any, or having such ability up to a dimensional level where for the sake of No Limits Fallacy would be assumed to bypass such, unless the resistance is at the same or higher dimensional level."
Click to expand...
This is vague, I can read this and either think that mindhaxing 10 people can't be resisted by a resistance to mindhax that works on only 1 target, or think that it mindhaxing 10 people isn't better than mindhaxing 1 unless stated otherwise. If what you meant by the OP still stands then you should tackle the issue from what it is, mindhax that gets numbers via ways alien to the user working hard themselves to get many targets at once. After that, examples of verses would also come in handy, like the moon in Touhou I said before or your regular hypnosis that you just look at it and get affected. Also this would be added in the Mind Manip page, no need to point out Soul Manip, that's its own can of worms.
 
Man this thread shot forward while I was asleep.
Anyways, what I still have a problem with is mixing up of potency and resistance issues.

If I can mindhax X number of people than my mind hax potency should be proportional to numbers. That should be a default. If any exceptions exist they can be dealt with in their own thread. But this is clearly mind hax potency.

i can understand resistance or sufferance of said mind hax by individuals can be baseline, since they suffer only their own portion of psychic/mind influence instead of total.

we clearly still use tons of other factors like layers of resistance, smurf, abstract etc etc already. Numbers is just one of them.

so all you need ask clarification of resistance under said mind manip. That way all problems are solved. Without needing to attack "numbers" as an factor which is still a valid metric for measuring potency.
If said mind hax is flexible enough to direct/control its potency by concentration....then thats just cherry on cake for people resisting it.
 
@Gilver If you're arguing that a character who can mindhax 10 people but has never overcome resistance and has no statement/implication of being able to concentrate its potency can mindhax a person who resisted basic one-person mindhax, then I disagree.

Numbers are a relevant aspect of potency, but when it comes to resistances, it shouldn't trump having actually resisted it without a statement/textual implication that the mindhax can be concentrated.
 
Ah yes... time to break out the point system. I'll quote myself.

YungManzi said:
I never agree with "case by case" sentiments on things like this (Which seem to be quite common these days).

It's like an excuse to further extend the discussion to a later time, just for it to come up later. On stuff like potency, we need a definitive measure. Like we have for everything else.
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This is me saying this over a year ago.

YungManzi said:
I would like to somehow come up with a system where we fairly judge mind hax potency by these 3 criteria, without favoring one over the other like we currently do.

  • Number of people affected.
  • Layers of resistance
  • Amount of control over the mind. (Like having Mind control and Perception manipulation> just having mind control)
Click to expand...
YungManzi said:
Like mind haxing 1 person with no resistance = 1 point of potency.

Mind haxing a person with baseline resistence = 10 points of potency.

Mind haxing a person who resists two kinds of mindhax = 10 x 2 = 20

Mind haxing a person with resistance to 100 points mindhax = 1,000 points of potency.

So on and so on.

That's how I would judge it.

Edit:

They're not compatible right now, but we could easily make them compatible.

People just don't want to because of their feelings and beliefs on what mind manipulation is.
Click to expand...
YungManzi said:
Also, I just threw numbers out. Any real number would require more discussion, and wouldn't be as arbitrary, as they would have actual reasoning behind them.
Click to expand...
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
@YungManzi I can see merit in atleast the motivations behind the logic. But I don't think layers of resistance or other abstract stuff can be rated.
Still loads better attempt then most people's suggestions mine included.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it'd have to be a bit arbitrary, I addressed that too actually:
YungManzi said:
An arbitrary system is better than the current system which nearly disregards all other ways of judging potency for one that is by no stretch universal among fiction.

In other words, relying on a made-up system is better than relying on a false one.
Click to expand...
 
To be honest, I've wanted to make something like this for a while, and I feel like this particular thread doesn't really go into all the different issues with how we currently treat mindhax potency, but as for what is on this thread, I agree. A mindhax affecting multiple targets should not necessarily be treated as being inherently more potent than one that affects a single target, regardless of the numbers affected by the former.

Mental manipulation is one of the most complex and varied abilities on the wiki, so there's basically no way of accurately creating a set of rules around how we measure potencies beyond what we already do with most other hax, which boils down to "how much resistance is broken through". As for anything else, it has to be treated on a more case-by-case basis, no matter how tedious it may end up being.
 
In that case, how about...

"While the amount of subjects affected at once by an ability such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation can be relevant for their power, this isn't necessarily the case. Like most other [[Hax]] abilities, an higher number of affected individuals don't necessarily involve the act of applying more power than normal for it to work than with less individuals, instead falling as Area of Effect instead, nor is necessarily usable by an user in a concentrated way against a single target.
In any case, either an statement of such power becoming stronger if the amount of inflicted ones is lowered, or something equivalent should be indicated by the mechanism to claim that the amount of targets affected is relevant for potency, and even then, it would remain unquantificable unless it can be compared directly to the act of bypassing a [[Resistance]] by overwhelming it. To overwhelm a baseline resistance to an ability, a display of [[Resistance Negation]] is required for up to the layers required to bypass the resistance of the target, if any, or having such ability up to a dimensional level where for the sake of No Limits Fallacy would be assumed to bypass such, unless the resistance is at the same or higher dimensional level."

I've bolded the changes, and I'm sure that it could use more edits, but I'd rather leave it up to others now as I'm getting too busy right now to continue much else, especially in regards of examples as Eficiente said, as I don't really have any regarding a proper verse on the site.
 
Bobsican said:
In that case, how about...

"While the amount of subjects affected at once by an ability such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation can be relevant for their power, this isn't necessarily the case. Like most other [[Hax]] abilities, an higher number of affected individuals don't necessarily involve the act of applying more power than normal for it to work than with less individuals, instead falling as Area of Effect instead, nor is necessarily usable by an user in a concentrated way against a single target.
In any case, either an statement of such power becoming stronger if the amount of inflicted ones is lowered, or something equivalent should be indicated by the mechanism to claim that the amount of targets affected is relevant for potency, and even then, it would remain unquantificable unless it can be compared directly to the act of bypassing a [[Resistance]] by overwhelming it. To overwhelm a baseline resistance to an ability, a display of [[Resistance Negation]] is required for up to the layers required to bypass the resistance of the target, if any, or having such ability up to a dimensional level where for the sake of No Limits Fallacy would be assumed to bypass such, unless the resistance is at the same or higher dimensional level."

I've bolded the changes, and I'm sure that it could use more edits, but I'd rather leave it up to others now as I'm getting too busy right now to continue much else, especially in regards of examples as Eficiente said, as I don't really have any regarding a proper verse on the site.
Click to expand...
At this rate I think I'll just make my own thread about it. I want to cover every aspect of it, plus add my own proposals, so a write-up is next to inevitable.
 
Eh, DontTalk was the one that suggested it, so I'm kinda neutral on that.

Also..
Solacis said:
At this rate I think I'll just make my own thread about it. I want to cover every aspect of it, plus add my own proposals, so a write-up is next to inevitable.
Click to expand...
Very well, I don't mind.
 
Yeah I always wondered why quantity was the end all be all for hax on here. Imo mind haxing 1 person with resistance is better then mind haxing 10 people without it
This is going for soul perception etc or just mind?
 
Quantity alone, shouldn’t take precedence over resistance or capability/ level of influence. Respectfully all of these factors should be considered when measuring potency regarding mind control.



I find it ridiculous to believe, a manipulator/ illusionist that is limited to indirect influence of the conscious mind. That’s demonstrated the ability to only induce false images, projecting illusions while they are still able to perceive real time, the physical world. Ultimately ,affecting thousands of minds that haven’t been shown to resist any application of mind control/hax whatsoever …..



Has a greater potency than a manipulator/ illusionist who can directly influence the conscious mind as well as the unconscious mind , the hidden aspects of the mind. Can alter perception of reality to such a degree, forcing hundreds of minds who have shown be resistant, demonstrated different layers of resistance to where they lose sense of the physical world, environment,real time perceiving alternate realities , infinite size universes
 
Let me bring an example:

There is Bob, Rob, Dob, Wob, Job and a crowd.

Bob and Rob have mind manipulation but they work differently (Dob does too but it's just Rob's but different, explained below)

Bob's mind control works in a way that anyone who doesn't have a resistance in any way will succumb to his mind control, he made a crowd follow him and create an army.

Rob's mind control does the most resistant negating of his hypothetical verse, he mind controlled Job, who has easily broken ot of control from Dob who can easily control Wob who has went through control from many mind manipulators but had simply no affect whatsover on him (let's just say this is compared to baseline mind manip since it's not NLF).

By the rules, Bob is far far far stronger than Rob in terms of mind manipulation. However, it would be like saying, Bob releases an attack worth 65 Kilotons across the surface of the earth. Rob explodes a mountain and gets 1.44 Gigatons, by the logic being currently used for the mind manip issue, Rob is far weaker than Bob.
 
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AKM sama said:
What exactly needs to be done here now?

Seems like this belongs in the staff discussion thread.
Click to expand...
Considering how regular members have been starting to bring contradictive ideas to each other, perhaps it would be best to move this to the staff board?
 
This thread is already too long to be moved to the staff board. It will be difficult for staff members to go through all that.

Someone should write a summary of the discussion and then start a new thread in the staff board.
 
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